What happened during development!?

[JoanneK]

This is probably gonna sound like a hate post, it isn't, it's a harsh honest appraisal from my perspective, backing a question that really needs answering.

 

Bioware formerly announced SWTOR 3.5 years ago (October 2008, rumours were abound in late '06) and Bioware stated that story writers had been working on the project for 2+ years at that point, so at launch the game ahd been in development for over 5 years probably more towards 6 years. EA purchased Bioware in 2007 but this SW MMO was already in development at that point and would have already had a massive amount of cash thrown at it due to project funding negotiations with LA when they decided they wanted another SW MMO, so its safe to say that the game design was 1st drafted ~2005

 

So my question is what the heck happened? that amount of development time, and we get a cut down KOTOR with an IRC channel and an MMO frontend on it. Something seriously changed direction late on in the games development cycle such that I would say alot of the development at that point was effectively thrown out the window. EA stated that SWTOR cost them about ~$80million, thats quite possible as typically the lions share of a budget is allocated at the start of a project thus prior to EAs involvement since LA nor Bioware was likely aware of what the future held at the time this game was sanctioned. This is probably why there appears to be such disparity with the typical US$150-200 million that most games analysts put on the cost of this game. So a follow on question: is that ~350k subs break-even figure that EA throw around just for return on their own investment?

 

So we have a game thats been in development since 2005-06, had more than double what most other games get spent on it, has about 10hours worth of voice over dialogue sound files on an otherwise rudementary basic-features-only cookie cutter MMO game model on a 3rd party game engine, we have the after thought of a drunken friday night out that is the space combat mini-game, loads of half finished stuff such as dark/lightside alignment and companions and we have the 4 main classes with 20 talent trees (5 per base class) sub-dividing those 4 classes into 8 advanced classes with 3 trees each (1 tree is common between both Adv classes per base class).

 

Lets look at a contemporary alternative: Rift by Trion Worlds

Development: Started 2006, similar to SWTOR although SWTOR probably started a bit earlier

Budget: Initially reported as over US$50million - well thats alot less than EAs SWTOR contrbution alone

Game Engine: 3rd party as are most modern MMOs

Launch: March 2011: 8 months before SWTOR with arguably slightly less endgame content

Base-Classes:4 (same as SWTOR)

Talent trees:8 per base-class (3more than SWTOR)

Advanced Classes: 224 (player selects any 3 trees from the pool of 8 for the base-class resulting in 56 Advanced Class combos for each base-class)

 

Both games started development roughly the same time as each other so comparison at a point shortly after their launch seems the best, for that its the 6 month mark as thats where SWTOR is at:

 

(some of the following is subjective and personal opinion)

Interactive dynamic environments? Rift yes, SWTOR no - rift spawns and zone invasions, SWTOR is 100% static

Storyline: Rift sort of, SWTOR yes - SWTOR akin to reading a book in places (good and bad)

Sense of immersion: Rift yes, SWTOR no - SWTOR feels like you're on a train ie your just along for the ride.

Sense of grand scale/living world: Rift yes, SWTOR no - Rift is largely free roam, SWTOR narrow corridors with nice scenery, exactly the same as KOTOR 6 years ago, tatooine is a partial exeption.

Free Roam Exploration: Rift yes, SWOTOR no - SWTORs "I'm on a train, I cant complain" well actuallly I can complain as there is no possibility for adventure or exploration

Crafting and Player economy: Rift no, SWTOR no - I've been spoiled with the systems of SWG and EVE that anything less feels frankly like playing shop with a 3yr old.

Combat: Rift yes, SWTOR yes - they both use the same tried n tested hotkeys gallore approach

Alternative gameplay: - Rift yes, SWTOR ish - Rift adveture+exploration, SWTOR space (cringeworthy I know)

LFG: Rift yes, SWTOR no - its coming but frankly they took 8 months longer than Rift so it should have been in at launch.

Ingame Events: Rift yes, SWTOR yes - the ones in Rift are in addition to the rift spawn and zone invasion systems.

X-Sever PVP: Rift yes, SWTOR yes - I dont pvp so I cannot comment on either.

Additional post launch patches/content: Rift every 4-5weeks typically, SWTOR sporadic at best.

Addons: Rfit yes, SWTOR no - like them or loathe them there is no denying that the basic supplied action bars in MMOs are always next to useless due to sheer number of keybindings required.

 

I could go on and on and the harsh truth is that Rift would tend to win or be equal to SWTOR on all the key features that we have come to expect as basic requirements for modern MMOs, the surprising fact is that SWTOR lacks so many of these and the ones it does have it has pretty much made a mess of. I must make it clear, I dont play Rift anymore as that game wasn't quite as fresh as I was hoping but it is certainly far more advanced in design than this game and has a reasonable degree of longevity and replayability to it and right now I'm taking a break from MMOs as this one has somewhat deterred me from the genre. Of course the above is somewhat subjective and open to personal opinion and interpretation.

 

The bottom line for me, and the reason I unsubbed is sadly that lightsaber and blaster graphics just dont make up for the otherwise mundane bottom of the range simplistic copy-paste MMO game model that is lurking underneath regardless of subscription costs. If you want Star Wars graphics and story especially relating to the KOTOR era then this game is worth a look, but for anyone not so attached to that or that wants a reasonably well done MMO then I honestly would recommend staying away from this product. Rift is considered middle of the road and somehwhat of a measuring stick in the MMO community atm and is clearly leaps and bounds ahead of this game both in terms of design, coherent finished features, polish and responsive proactive development.

 

Star Wars is arguably the biggest IP on the planet and the brand new flagship MMO game for that IP is 1/10th as succesful as the 8year old aging behemoth that is WoW. People say "oh xyz game was rubbish at launch also" surely the defining point that seperates humans from everything else is that we learn from our mistakes!? perhaps the games industry is exempt from that and we have to wait 5 years for this game to be at the same level of game xyz when that was 5years post launch. We got something that should've taken ~3years and about US$30million to make that is now seemingly having to have its financial performance fabricated to keep shareholders happy.

[Shibata]

I agree with everything you just wrote, I could add the fact that the PvP aspect of the game, the one you did not experience as you are not into it, is also miles behind everything, even WoW. You specify that Rift has X-realm PvP (does it? I don't play that game) and that TOR also does. Correction: TOR has no such thing yet. So one more big thing it lacks, be it good or bad, at last for the crap populated servers this would be a plus.

 

To get back on what I'd add to your post: PvP is dead boring, the "carrot" for it is some War Hero gear that requires you to play like a mad man to get it in a reasonable amount of time, the system is copy/paste from WoW with specific items designed for PvP (the gear), a stat that helps PvP (called expertise in this game). There is absolutely NO innovation in the PvP of TOR. Add to that the fact that this game simply has NO World PvP whatsoever or any kind of incentive to do world PvP and what do you get?

 

I am also not at all happy with the way PvE is handled in this game: scripted events, in a maze called an Operation / Flashpoint, that you need to come and repeat each time in order to maybe get some kind of shiny purple crap. Seriously, in 10 years since this has been arround (or more) nobody can come up with something fresh? Even with all the crapload of money put into this game?

 

Disappointed is an understatement.

[Drudenfusz]

X-Sever PVP: Rift yes, SWTOR yes - I dont pvp so I cannot comment on either.

Cross-server PvP is planed for SWTOR, but not yet in the game.

[smilefunk]

op, i can only imagine that SWTOR wishes you the best of luck in your future endeavors.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

can i haz?

[AnoriOlko]

Good post, I agree with everything.

 

Its such an insult to claim this game has "space combat"

[Darkhosis]

EA happened.

 

/thread

[Sliverspark]

My guess is Bioware had game designs set, then they were changed by either EA and LA, or both to fit a more modern MMO business model.

 

Here's the problem: There is no "MMO Business Model" EVERY GAME, EVERY SINGLE GAME THAT has tried to recreate WoW, or anything like it has completely BOMBED. So you have to ask yourself which guy said it would work, because clearly it hasn't, for many years.

 

People need to stop developing crap and start understanding why MMO's fail so hard. Look at Tabula Rasa, look at The Matrix Online, find out what happened to them that made them go away and work up from there. Where's Ralph Koster when you need him...

[ChazDoit]

Sense of grand scale/living world: Rift yes, SWTOR no - Rift is largely free roam, SWTOR narrow corridors with nice scenery, exactly the same as KOTOR 6 years ago, tatooine is a partial exeption.

Free Roam Exploration: Rift yes, SWOTOR no - SWTORs "I'm on a train, I cant complain" well actuallly I can complain as there is no possibility for adventure or exploration

 

How come exploration and the overused buzzword "living world" are like so important all of a sudden? those features were never one of swtor selling points or even mentioned as relevant features of the game, honestly, I bought this game expecting a Standard MMO with Story and Dialogue ala Mass Effect, and Im satisfied with my experience so far, not sure if they will have enough content for me to keep playing on the following months however.

 

There are plenty of things that swtor promised and couldnt deliver, but they never promised us "organic" and "living" worlds, deep exploration and all that crap, which has no replay value for me anyway, once you explore a world, done, no value in doing it again.

Edited May 10, 2012 by ChazDoit

[Cerion]

This is probably gonna sound like a hate post, because it is.

 

 

fixed that for you.

 

also, tl;read 1/2.

[Frostvein]

They played it too safe is what happened. Someone, somewhere figured that "WoW with lightsabers and VO" would be enough to make this compete and possibly even dominate in the MMO market. Maybe when they began to develop the game that was a viable option. But now? This game looks, plays and feels like a WoW clone that walked out of 2008 - only with instead of features that are traditional to MMOs we get 10+ hours of VO, a fair chunk of which is either alien gargling and or NPCs telling you to go get 10 space bunny tails.

 

I don't understand how people who have been playing MMO's since the birth of the genre can sit here and tell me with a straight face that this game, based on its MMO featureset, is better then older games (WoW, Aion, Rift) and comparative to new ones (Tera, GW2)

 

Strip the IP out of this and you have nothing. Literally, this game without Star Wars could not stand on its own legs with gameplay alone. This is the problem. The IP only carries you so far. At some point, people want to play an actual good game. Outside of leveling, I cant think of anything this game does better then any competitor on the market.

[Ianthejedi]

 

Sense of immersion: Rift yes, SWTOR no - SWTOR feels like you're on a train ie your just along for the ride.

 

 

Well thought out post OP. However i have to disagree with this ( i know it's your opinion). I really do feel apart of the Star Wars universe when I play this game.... and that's why I will continue with my sub and continue logging in.

[Frakkensteinse]

EA happened.

 

/thread

 

That is my feeling exactly. This game doesnt have much of the depth and new thinking that I earlier connected to BioWare. And its not the first game being dumbed down in the name of EA. I guess its all about getting as many people as possible to by it by making the least nisched game ever using a great brand. All can play, but its just a compromise to keep all players playing without any effort. They dont wanna scare off anybody. Sadly we can se that sort of thinking in a lot of modern games... (

)

 

I just read another thread and got hit hard in my head what it was that i was lacking in this game. Choice. I want to play an mmoRPG. RPG is for me a question of making real choices how the char is developing (skill points/attributes/gear/looks and so on...) and in what fashion i want to experience the world. I also want some things to be hard so that i have to find alternate ways to survive and also try in different ways to succeed. This game has not much of those kinds of choices. Its more like follow an easy road up to level 50. Not really a challenge. Only alternative is doing it with pvp-WZs or space instead. Theres almost no fight or challenge thats even remotely hard or has different ways of succeeding. I think that I managed to succeed the toughest fights in solo-leveling (within the right levelspan) by the second attempt. Didnt even get punished in form of having to start from some other place. Just respawned, knew what went wrong and did it right. Then i can do it again with another class, hardcore PVP or do some reapeating FPs or OPs over and over again, Some are a bit challenging if not geared for it but since we get the same gear eventually we all will do it exactly the only way its possible to succeed.

 

Furthermore my char is the almost the same as all other within the same class. The only thing that differs are the time I have spent ingame doing different repeatable quests or pvping and therefore I have worse equipment than some and better than some. We look almost the same, my choices of gear are limited and the choice of how to play my class is limited. Just follow the road. Now its all about perfecting my abillity to push buttons in the right order (and theres a lot of guides out there that I can learn from. Funny enough they say almost the same how to play each class.) My gunslinger is not much different from the other gunslinger. The talent trees are not different enough to have a real meaning. And also Rep/Imp chars are mirrored so theres not really that many classes/styles to play...

 

TLDR;

There is not much RPG in this MMORPG. Theres not much MMO in this MMORPG. So I'll guess I'll play that new multiplayer swordrustling game for the group-online experience, some FPS for the twitch and press buttons experience and some RTS for that scroll, point and click experience. For MMORPG I'll have to find something else since this game is not what i am looking for. Good riddance.

[RolyartNala]

They played it too safe is what happened.

This.

[IasonEvan]

OP: I think what happens too is that players put what aspirations they have for a game on it before they get to play it, sometimes for years. They build it up in their mind as to what it should be, not what it is. I got lucky as I was looking for a new MMO after LOTRO went all money hungry and released some really bad/buggy updates. I decided to play this as a sequel to KOTOR and use the free month to check it out. heck, my reasoning was if there was a KOTOR 3, I would buy it on day 1 and pay $60 for it and play it for a month or maybe two like any Single Player RPG. This wouldn't be any different than that really. And you know what? When you play it like that, it is a really fun game. Does it have problems that it didn't ship with a full compliment of features that any MMO released in 2004 had? yes. But, the story is really good for all the classes. I wasnt looking for a game to play with a lot of people. I was looking for a KOTOR sequel and it pretty much exceeded my expectations for that.

 

I have a lot of fun playing this game. All that said, when GW2 comes out, I will be playing that. THAT is a fully featured MMO.

[WickedDjinn]

How come exploration and the overused buzzword "living world" are like so important all of a sudden? those features were never one of swtor selling points or even mentioned as relevant features of the game, honestly, I bought this game expecting a Standard MMO with Story and Dialogue ala Mass Effect, and Im satisfied with my experience so far, not sure if they will have enough content for me to keep playing on the following months however.

 

There are plenty of things that swtor promised and couldnt deliver, but they never promised us "organic" and "living" worlds, deep exploration and all that crap, which has no replay value for me anyway, once you explore a world, done, no value in doing it again.

 

Nothing all of the sudden about it. It's such a basic expectation of any MMO that it rarely needs to come up at all.

 

But it does in the case of Swtor.

 

Let's put it this way... You could boot up just about any MMO, even the crappiest F2P and find an environment that feels more lively than what we get with TOR. The game hits you in the face with how static it feels. Much of this is because the games very design goes to great lengths to partition players off from each other.

[Suromir]

actually the story they had written was for KOTOR 3..NOT an MMO...the JK story is basically what was to be KOTOR 3.

 

EA spent over $$300 MILLION on the game...NOT $80 million

 

I agree they cut too many corners..too many bad decisions made..and they're showing their ineptitude in the MMO market...but get your facts straight.

 

it's actually WORSE than you think ;-)

[smilefunk]

EA spent over $$300 MILLION on the game

 

source?

[Annedromeda]

The problem here is this:

 

Using conjecture and speculating on what has happened during development time is just that - conjecture and speculation. We think we may know what happened during this time, but unless we were all working for Bio at that time, on this game, NONE of us can safely assume anything. 6 years is a lot of time for anything to happen - any complications, loss of staff for whatever reasons, difficulties for whatever reasons, things happen that aren't common knowledge, publicised or what have you, because it is company business.

 

So lets try and answer that question again.

 

What happened during development?

I don't know, and only the people working for Bio and on this game at that time, have any knowledge of what happened, so I think we should not even bother speculating, as it makes everyone look the fool.

[Arkerus]

actually the story they had written was for KOTOR 3..NOT an MMO...the JK story is basically what was to be KOTOR 3.

 

EA spent over $$300 MILLION on the game...NOT $80 million

 

I agree they cut too many corners..too many bad decisions made..and they're showing their ineptitude in the MMO market...but get your facts straight.

 

it's actually WORSE than you think ;-)

 

$300MM has been debunked. Stop spreading ridiculous lies.

[Itukaaj]

EA wants $ over delivering a product = IP they bought. Instead of being like Steve Jobs wanting the ultimate experience and with a vision they made the Zune of MMOs and hope that they could get carried by George Lucas's ideas.

 

I hope Lucas pulls his head out of his greedy *** and sells the ip less expensively to developers who can innovate with it and also I hope he let's go of his control of the creativity of his property because jar jar killed star wars.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sireene
lang

[rjkishida]

what happened is that the dev team was in over their heads and had no real idea of what to do. they just cobbled together whatever they could think of that would be cool in an MMO and just prayed everyone would love it because it's star wars. well I love star wars but I hate badly put together and thought out garbage.

[ChazDoit]

Nothing all of the sudden about it. It's such a basic expectation of any MMO that it rarely needs to come up at all.

 

But it does in the case of Swtor.

 

Let's put it this way... You could boot up just about any MMO, even the crappiest F2P and find an environment that feels more lively than what we get with TOR. The game hits you in the face with how static it feels. Much of this is because the games very design goes to great lengths to partition players off from each other.

 

I dont belive in the so called "basic expectations" or "MMO standards" in fact, I think swtor takes a bit too much standards from other games, they should try to do their own thing, the voice over and the story are awesome and they give me a much bigger sense of immersion that seeing a few NPC scriptedly walking around the planet. I like that the game revolves around my character and his journey and not some scripted events that repeat over and over and over to give an artifial sense of "living world"

 

I followed the game for at least a year before its realease so I already knew what I was going to buy, what were the game best features and also the game flaws. Maybe you saw the game on a shelf and picked it up? I dont know, but I if was going to spend $60 or more on a game at least I would check out a youtube video to see if i like it, ask a friend, heck even sign up for a beta and see for yourself.

 

I was expecting Ranked Warzones to be out by now, a Better Legacy system, those are things that were promised, not silly exploration and NPCs randomly walking around. Im also a bit disappointed that the content patches were all about Operations and Flashpoints and not even a little bit of story for my character, since this a story driven MMO after all.

Edited May 10, 2012 by ChazDoit

[smilefunk]

sells the ip less expensively to developers who can innovate with it

 

such as?...

do you even know?!

[rakuenCallisto]

The problem here is this:

 

Using conjecture and speculating on what has happened during development time is just that - conjecture and speculation. We think we may know what happened during this time, but unless we were all working for Bio at that time, on this game, NONE of us can safely assume anything. 6 years is a lot of time for anything to happen - any complications, loss of staff for whatever reasons, difficulties for whatever reasons, things happen that aren't common knowledge, publicised or what have you, because it is company business.

 

So lets try and answer that question again.

 

What happened during development?

I don't know, and only the people working for Bio and on this game at that time, have any knowledge of what happened, so I think we should not even bother speculating, as it makes everyone look the fool.

 

Actually sitting around, blindly twiddling our thumbs as NOTHING happens is what makes us look like fools.

 

Conjecture and speculation is all we have left.

[Itukaaj]

such as?...

do you even know?!

 

The Army of the 12 Monkeys