The Issue with TOR and why people are leaving

[Thrawler]

People seem to be shocked that people are Unsub'ing but it makes sense.

 

Lets look at what made TOR so great in the beginning

 

Indepth Story Line. BioWare ALWAYS makes games with Storylines that keep the player involved, interacted with the plot. I have played all 4 Republic classes to max level and enjoyed every single one of them.

 

But once your done leveling, where does the story go? it stops, there is nothing to keep people playing.

 

Now lets look at Pre-Release, what did they use for PR (and still use as PR) Darth Malgus, attacking Coruscant, this iconic character was/is the symbol of Star Wars: The Old Republic.

 

As with World Of Warcraft, during Vanilla Ragnaros/Onyxia were the Iconic Evils in the world, they had a story line, they were the common goal for End Game progression.

 

TBC = Illidan

Wrath = Lich King

Cata = Deathwing

Pan = Butterlies

 

the point is each expansion had its own end game boss, its own storylines as to why this character needs to go down.

 

SWTOR was published with Darth Malgus being the evil iconic character.

How does this character die? you blow him off a edge with a nade, in a 4 man Heroic.. This character that has had millions of dollars put into for PR, and development, is never mentioned in the storylines in the game until you hit Ilum and hes mentioned for a small (very small) portion of the game.

 

 

We have SOA/Karraga/Kephess as Final Bosses, but theres no real story line as to why we're killing them, they just seemed to appear one day, and we want them dead. Theres no Build Up.

 

This game is missing the Hook to grab people to make us want to fight for the Republic or the Empire to protect it from what ever is attempting to harm it. But we don't know what it is.

 

The class Story Lines I would have thought would have sometime interwined together to create the epic end game story line that we were all looking for.

 

My biggest let down is the Jedi Knight Story Line.

 

If you've ever read the book Revan, you'll understand why its a let down. I will not spoil it for everyone but lets just say its not the Epic Ending it should have had for again an insanely iconic Character which has a huge story behind him.

 

 

TL;DR

 

People are leaving because theres no Hook, Theres no sense of ownership, no Sense of pride when you hit End Game, theres nothing to make us feel ,we need to defend/protect from the evil, we don't know what it is, they just show up and we're told to kill them.

 

For BioWare to make such epic Storylines, they seemed to have left out the biggest part of an MMO the End Game Story, the part that will keep people playing long after they finish leveling.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Thrawler

[Angedechu]

The Sith Emperor, man. The Sith Emperor

 

It would be easier to list heinous crimes he did not commit.

 

(tortured his mom, rountinely sentence people to eternal torment, kills scores of his own citizens, mind **** on a regular basis, transform scores of Imperials into puppets, lie to his own people, commit war crimes on a daily basis, plan to suck the life of all the galaxy..)

[Shampoo]

Just poppin' in to say the final "boss" of Mists of Pandaria is none other than current Horde Warchief Garrosh Hellscream.

[RachelAnne]

The hook died at wow too with TBC...

 

I dont know but when we did LK before the 30% buff, we felt he was allready too easy. Yes he was the final boss there, but hardly a real "challange" unless you did do him in HC.

 

Cata... was too easy as well.

 

I agree that vanilla and tbc had somekind of hook and ongoing story that people were playing for, but with WOTLK it was not there anymore. I often did ask myself why did I kill that boss now, why did I go down that pit etc.

 

 

At tor right now I dont bother with raiding, I lack the time for this - when I hit 50 I was called to defend the Emperor - so far that call was a oneway, so that I will shortly lvl a second char and see what happens there.

 

All I am trying to say is, that wow aint the holy grale that people think it is, since WOTLK its boring and dead and does hardly have that "hook" or "carrot" anymore that it once had.

 

It just feels wrong to enter a raid and 2 hours later the final boss of the expansion is dead, there is no point and since everyone knows that, its no real fun to down these bosses. I did almost all Bosses at Cata just once, I couldnt bother with it a second time - unless we went HC, but even there you felt cheated by its "generic" progress, that was not really something intresting as you knew it all before.

 

At v anilla I did love doing MC, BWL, AW 40 and Naxx multiple times - the fights had something and you could also upgrade your chars. I miss that completely at wow today, just go to the vendor and buy items.....

Edited May 8, 2012 by RachelAnne

[Mustelidaen]

I like your nice, romantic ideas, but people are not going to log in sitting there in awe of the storyline.

 

The real reason people are leaving is they have no reason to sign on every day to do the daily heroic missiion like in WoW. In fact, many people have skipped many of the the heroic 4-mans altogether! So it is the perfect time to get them to do them.

 

Sigh, the problem could be easily addressed by adding Rakata and Black Hole tokens to the heroic daily mission award, in a scaled fashion, according to difficulty...

 

Up the ante for doing HM flashpoints. This would add huge incentive to do flashpoints. The HM daily quest reward should be scaled to the difficulty of the heroic completed, and should include Rakata and Black Hole tokens as appropriate:

 

The Black Talon: Keep as-is, "LFG quick daily BT HM" in General Chat makes my stomach turn

Boarding Party: Add 1 Rakata token

The Foundry, Directive 7: Add 2 Rakata token

The Battle of Ilum, The False Emperor, Kaon under Siege: Add 1 Black Hole token

Lost Island: Add 2 Black Hole token

 

Adding a LFG, combining servers, etc. will add NOTHING to incentivize people to do the heroic daily quest, and adding LFG is what everyone talks about?!? Adding LFG for what??? On the other hand, if folks did log on every day to do the daily (using the LFG) it would solve the problem of giving 50s something to do, and might boost the struggling economy, for example. But adding a LFG is SECONDARY. You have to get people to WANT TO SIGN ON TO DO SOMETHING OF VALUE, FIRST.

 

This is why WoW works--the dailies draw people in because they drop worthwhile tokens. SWTOR on the other hand, is broken because it does not. And the developers are apparently too dense to understand.

 

A nice storyline is just icing on the cake, for most people. And I agree, it could be better.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Mustelidaen

[AnoriOlko]

Its not THE reason, but one of the reasons. I agree.

[arkzehhh]

The hook died at wow too with TBC...

 

I dont know but when we did LK before the 30% buff, we felt he was allready too easy. Yes he was the final boss there, but hardly a real "challange" unless you did do him in HC.

 

Cata... was too easy as well.

 

I agree that vanilla and tbc had somekind of hook and ongoing story that people were playing for, but with WOTLK it was not there anymore. I often did ask myself why did I kill that boss now, why did I go down that pit etc.

 

 

At tor right now I dont bother with raiding, I lack the time for this - when I hit 50 I was called to defend the Emperor - so far that call was a oneway, so that I will shortly lvl a second char and see what happens there.

 

All I am trying to say is, that wow aint the holy grale that people think it is, since WOTLK its boring and dead and does hardly have that "hook" or "carrot" anymore that it once had.

 

It just feels wrong to enter a raid and 2 hours later the final boss of the expansion is dead, there is no point and since everyone knows that, its no real fun to down these bosses. I did almost all Bosses at Cata just once, I couldnt bother with it a second time - unless we went HC, but even there you felt cheated by its "generic" progress, that was not really something intresting as you knew it all before.

 

At v anilla I did love doing MC, BWL, AW 40 and Naxx multiple times - the fights had something and you could also upgrade your chars. I miss that completely at wow today, just go to the vendor and buy items.....

 

WOTLK > SWTOR

By far.

[Filodendron]

All I am trying to say is, that wow aint the holy grale that people think it is, since WOTLK its boring and dead and does hardly have that "hook" or "carrot" anymore that it once had.

 

You completely missed the point.

The hook isn't about the challenge, that`s bound to fade away since in vanilla you were a clueless newb and a boss with 2 phases and 3 abilities felt really hard. Now after playing the same game for 6-7 years it feels easier but doesn't mean it is, compare Ragnaros from MC wtih Ragnaros from FL (hc) ..if you think the first one is harder then you also need professional help.

 

Oh and if you ask me why i'm quitting is because in order to keep playing and be able to join ops i need a new computer which i can't afford right now.

I think this is one issue BW didn't consider when they made this game, that not everybody has a high end computer or willing to buy one just to play this game.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Filodendron

[Lorgrin]

My main reasons for leaving ....

 

1) Re-rolled twice due to servers dying.

2) Cant find groups to do flashpoints or heroics

3) PVP is mind shatteringly bad

4) Kill these three guys who just stand there......now kill these three guys who just stand there.....hey here are three more guys who just stand there, I guess I need to kill them.

5) In my opinion companions are a huge mistake. I hated having to rely on a AI controlled companion to play with. (If they die, chances are you are going down too)

6) WAY too instanced

[Thrawler]

The hook died at wow too with TBC...

 

I dont know but when we did LK before the 30% buff, we felt he was allready too easy. Yes he was the final boss there, but hardly a real "challange" unless you did do him in HC.

 

Cata... was too easy as well.

 

Its not about how hard or easy the fights are, its about the story the build up. and in all honesty I think WOTLK had one of the most epic build ups to the final Boss, they released new videos of the LK wrecking havoc among Northrend, the rallying of Alliance and Horde at the Wrath Gate and the LK just laughing, made the story insane, and just made me want to burn him down even more. made me want to work harder play harder just to kill the bastard whos been attacking my people, my land.

 

 

**Also throughout Northrend leveling up, your greeted by the LK in many different quests and watching him and his power grow also made him seem more of a ******.

 

Its all about the story, of course if the fight is to easy and the story made them seem like a ****** and he wasn't, (I.E Darth Malgus, is a push over, but somehow is strong enough to conquer an entire city wide planet, but falls to a simple thermal grenade, The Emperor able to do what he did to Nathmas, and yet a simple jedi and his droid can knock em down.)

 

everyone has their own reasons for playing the games they play, but personally I play for the Story Lines, the Love Triangles, I enjoy seeing how peoples live unfold as I progress through the world.

 

and SWTOR I think did an amazing job, up until you hit 50, I lost all interest in the game, I still do End Game, but I don't know why I do it, who are these people, why do we want them dead? I know SOA is a imprisoned being because of how powerful and phsyco he is but, more development on his storyline would have been nice. same with Karagga. or even Keph. I mean really who is Keph, what is he, where did he come from, what does he want.

 

So many questions.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Thrawler

[Valkirus]

The hook died at wow too with TBC...

 

I dont know but when we did LK before the 30% buff, we felt he was allready too easy. Yes he was the final boss there, but hardly a real "challange" unless you did do him in HC.

 

Cata... was too easy as well.

 

I agree that vanilla and tbc had somekind of hook and ongoing story that people were playing for, but with WOTLK it was not there anymore. I often did ask myself why did I kill that boss now, why did I go down that pit etc.

 

 

At tor right now I dont bother with raiding, I lack the time for this - when I hit 50 I was called to defend the Emperor - so far that call was a oneway, so that I will shortly lvl a second char and see what happens there.

 

All I am trying to say is, that wow aint the holy grale that people think it is, since WOTLK its boring and dead and does hardly have that "hook" or "carrot" anymore that it once had.

 

It just feels wrong to enter a raid and 2 hours later the final boss of the expansion is dead, there is no point and since everyone knows that, its no real fun to down these bosses. I did almost all Bosses at Cata just once, I couldnt bother with it a second time - unless we went HC, but even there you felt cheated by its "generic" progress, that was not really something intresting as you knew it all before.

 

At v anilla I did love doing MC, BWL, AW 40 and Naxx multiple times - the fights had something and you could also upgrade your chars. I miss that completely at wow today, just go to the vendor and buy items.....

 

So...I assume then you did the Lich King on heroic? And Cata..you did all those on heroic also? You cannot buy every pc of equipment you need with VP's. Some items require you to get the tokens and weapons....both of those only drop off bosses. You get even higher rewards from doing the raids in heroic. Cata raids and dungeons were too easy for you? Well I wonder why Blizz had to buff the tanks threat by 40% not too long ago in order to get them to tank content in Cata? And when Cata was first released...Blizz recieved a ton of complaints they were too hard. And healing them was very hard at first. Mana issues made healing a real pain then.

 

To the OP's thread....you make some good points and that may be a issue with some. But you also know many of the players have never even got to experence any end game content because of a lack of finding groups to do them with. So many will leave because once they reach 50...there is nothing for them to do but dailies.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Valkirus

[Thrawler]

To the OP's thread....you make some good points and that may be a issue with some. But you also know many of the players have never even got to experence any end game content because of a lack of finding groups to do them with. So many will leave because once they reach 50...there is nothing for them to do but dailies.

 

I agree that a lot of people haven't seen the End Game because of Low Pop Servers, and unable to find a group. But that also I think ties in with what I was saying about theres no story.

 

There does not seem to be any real push for End Game, once you hit 50, you learn of Darth Malgus on Ilum hes never really mentioned anywhere else. You NEVER hear of SOA - unless you go into EV -, you don't know of Karraga unless you go into the Instance.

 

Being level 50 and not knowing these enemies I think is also a reason people don't go do End Game, theres no pride to kill them.

 

I think if people we're more informed of the rivals that are facing the Republic and Empire they might be more inclined to join in on PUGs. I know when we're looking for people to PUG EV or KP, we never get any hits we have to /t people just to get answered.

 

I think the LFD they are designing will help with people finding groups for the 4mans, to bad they won't have it for the Ops thou.

[Valkirus]

I agree that a lot of people haven't seen the End Game because of Low Pop Servers, and unable to find a group. But that also I think ties in with what I was saying about theres no story.

 

There does not seem to be any real push for End Game, once you hit 50, you learn of Darth Malgus on Ilum hes never really mentioned anywhere else. You NEVER hear of SOA - unless you go into EV -, you don't know of Karraga unless you go into the Instance.

 

Being level 50 and not knowing these enemies I think is also a reason people don't go do End Game, theres no pride to kill them.

 

I think if people we're more informed of the rivals that are facing the Republic and Empire they might be more inclined to join in on PUGs. I know when we're looking for people to PUG EV or KP, we never get any hits we have to /t people just to get answered.

 

I think the LFD they are designing will help with people finding groups for the 4mans, to bad they won't have it for the Ops thou.

 

I would gladly run those boring and stale level 50 Flashpoints and Operations if I could get a group to do them with. But standing on the fleet for a hour or more and getting nothing is discouraging. And the LFG for PVE is not going to be cross server, so good luck with that on low pop servers. For myself..this will be the prime reason I may not extend my sub once it expires.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Valkirus

[MasterKayote]

You really think he's dead dont you?

(psst, falling into a big hole doesnt always = death ... neither is exploding in a big white light. hint hint)

[Riftknee]

I think there are a few key problems with star wars atm.

 

One is pvp, it is carbon copy BG garabage, it is no different then any other BG system any other MMO has copy and pasted, it is a failed system and one day these MMOs will get away from that, until then we are left with BG system touted with design flaws, it is a system based on server size, server activity, gear based not skill based, everyone wins so no one really cares anyways and randomness based on what classes join and how well geared they are.

 

Crafting, in the end everyone is fighting over instance based gear, player crafted stuff is rarely good enough to fill any voids and imo this is at the heart of why so many community based MMO's suffer, games like Daoc and SWG had great communities and great open world pvp and imo the crafting was at the heart of this. I think player crafted gear should be just as good if not the best stuff available in the game, it would change the dynamics of server community.

 

Questing, outside of the class story lines it is the same old stuff over and over again and while I really enjoyed the class stories and act's it was over to quick and to linear imo, not enough choices involving companions and how the story was affected. This is what made star wars so great for a few months and it is also its major flaw in the end because without keeping this fresh and adding new material when needed people are forced to start alts and see the quests over and over again and after 2 50s and a few 30s I got to the point I could not stand the space bar bashing to cut through the scenes anymore.

 

End game, ah yes the ultimate topic, nothing new here really as one person stated already the story lines are thin at best, you are once again forced into joining an active guild of decent size to accomplish end game material which I am betting most of us wanted to stay away from after 6 years of wow and watching guilds destroy themselves over loot and raid rules. Again why companies feel compelled to copy wow in this reguard I don't know, most people are looking for something different, not wow's or eq's systems tweaked a little.

 

In the end what made star wars fresh and cool wore out to early, unless they can find a way to make their unique style of play last longer or updated more often you will find people leaving and subs dwindling and nothing they can do will stop it, this is the way of the MMO, you reach 50 to easily these days imo, 1 week is the average for a decent MMO player and after two weeks most people are in end game mode, I just find this way to easy I remember in games where it took a month to reach max level it game developers time to add content and made people work together and build communities over time, instead we have insta 50s in a week and people are literally done with the game in a month, MMOs were not meant to be fast food resturaunts, imo this should be like fine dining where you are there for a few hours not a drive through and this is a major problem for MMO's.

 

I really enjoyed star wars but in the end I am bored and diablo 3 comes out in a week, I canceled my sub but I am really sad as I had so much fun the 1st month or two in star wars. I really hope they figure out the problems so I can come back and enjoy it again.

[Iboga]

Just poppin' in to say the final "boss" of Mists of Pandaria is none other than current Horde Warchief Garrosh Hellscream.

 

As a diehard member of the Horde I just wanted to say that might make me go back for a bit just to get to kill him...

[Valkirus]

I think there are a few key problems with star wars atm.

 

One is pvp, it is carbon copy BG garabage, it is no different then any other BG system any other MMO has copy and pasted, it is a failed system and one day these MMOs will get away from that, until then we are left with BG system touted with design flaws, it is a system based on server size, server activity, gear based not skill based, everyone wins so no one really cares anyways and randomness based on what classes join and how well geared they are.

 

Crafting, in the end everyone is fighting over instance based gear, player crafted stuff is rarely good enough to fill any voids and imo this is at the heart of why so many community based MMO's suffer, games like Daoc and SWG had great communities and great open world pvp and imo the crafting was at the heart of this. I think player crafted gear should be just as good if not the best stuff available in the game, it would change the dynamics of server community.

 

Questing, outside of the class story lines it is the same old stuff over and over again and while I really enjoyed the class stories and act's it was over to quick and to linear imo, not enough choices involving companions and how the story was affected. This is what made star wars so great for a few months and it is also its major flaw in the end because without keeping this fresh and adding new material when needed people are forced to start alts and see the quests over and over again and after 2 50s and a few 30s I got to the point I could not stand the space bar bashing to cut through the scenes anymore.

 

End game, ah yes the ultimate topic, nothing new here really as one person stated already the story lines are thin at best, you are once again forced into joining an active guild of decent size to accomplish end game material which I am betting most of us wanted to stay away from after 6 years of wow and watching guilds destroy themselves over loot and raid rules. Again why companies feel compelled to copy wow in this reguard I don't know, most people are looking for something different, not wow's or eq's systems tweaked a little.

 

In the end what made star wars fresh and cool wore out to early, unless they can find a way to make their unique style of play last longer or updated more often you will find people leaving and subs dwindling and nothing they can do will stop it, this is the way of the MMO, you reach 50 to easily these days imo, 1 week is the average for a decent MMO player and after two weeks most people are in end game mode, I just find this way to easy I remember in games where it took a month to reach max level it game developers time to add content and made people work together and build communities over time, instead we have insta 50s in a week and people are literally done with the game in a month, MMOs were not meant to be fast food resturaunts, imo this should be like fine dining where you are there for a few hours not a drive through and this is a major problem for MMO's.

 

I really enjoyed star wars but in the end I am bored and diablo 3 comes out in a week, I canceled my sub but I am really sad as I had so much fun the 1st month or two in star wars. I really hope they figure out the problems so I can come back and enjoy it again.

 

I agree totally with your assessment of the crafting in TOR. It is very weak part of the game and other than BioChem for a fast credit maker, is not worth it for me atleast. As far as the raid model, they just need to extend the access to those with the tools Blizz has implemented in my opinion. I love doing the raids now in WoW. No need to use addons/mods/vent and you can choose your own times to run them. But at the same time the casual player feels he has experenced the end game content.

[Jederix]

Just poppin' in to say the final "boss" of Mists of Pandaria is none other than current Horde Warchief Garrosh Hellscream.

 

Lemme guess. "He went crazy." I'm sure it's "Just a Setback."

 

The great story of 75% of all WoW raid bosses. Color me unimpressed.

[kirorx]

Appease the starwars fans and you will keep those players but you may lose some mmo fans, Appease the MMOs fans and you could risk losing the starwars fans and some mmo fans.

[Valkirus]

Appease the starwars fans and you will keep those players but you may lose some mmo fans, Appease the MMOs fans and you could risk losing the starwars fans and some mmo fans.

 

They did a great job with the Star Wars feel to the game and if you play the game as you would say, KOTR3, then you will have a great time. But as a MMO, they have failed in a lot of ways. Worth the purchase price and one month sub to finish the story. Not worth a sub month after month in it's current state. That is the best way for me to sum up my feelings for TOR at this time.

[thominoh]

My main reasons for leaving ....

 

1) Re-rolled twice due to servers dying.

2) Cant find groups to do flashpoints or heroics

3) PVP is mind shatteringly bad

4) Kill these three guys who just stand there......now kill these three guys who just stand there.....hey here are three more guys who just stand there, I guess I need to kill them.

5) In my opinion companions are a huge mistake. I hated having to rely on a AI controlled companion to play with. (If they die, chances are you are going down too)

6) WAY too instanced

 

Perfectly said.. +2

[Valkirus]

My main reasons for leaving ....

 

1) Re-rolled twice due to servers dying.

2) Cant find groups to do flashpoints or heroics

3) PVP is mind shatteringly bad

4) Kill these three guys who just stand there......now kill these three guys who just stand there.....hey here are three more guys who just stand there, I guess I need to kill them.

5) In my opinion companions are a huge mistake. I hated having to rely on a AI controlled companion to play with. (If they die, chances are you are going down too)

6) WAY too instanced

 

Well said. I only disagree with the companion part. I love that system. The PVP? I donot do it so I cannot agree or disagree. Rest of your points are right on tho.

[Rayla_Felana]

WOTLK > SWTOR

By far.

 

Don't make me laugh.

[RachelAnne]

So...I assume then you did the Lich King on heroic? And Cata..you did all those on heroic also? You cannot buy every pc of equipment you need with VP's. Some items require you to get the tokens and weapons....both of those only drop off bosses. You get even higher rewards from doing the raids in heroic. Cata raids and dungeons were too easy for you? Well I wonder why Blizz had to buff the tanks threat by 40% not too long ago in order to get them to tank content in Cata? And when Cata was first released...Blizz recieved a ton of complaints they were too hard. And healing them was very hard at first. Mana issues made healing a real pain then.

 

 

I was tanking every encounter on my druid on release, no problems - add´s did tank our DK or Pally / as my bear was always the MT. The normal mode was in most cases a 1 or 2 trys fight, that did not offer anything new than the raid encounters of previous addons. If you raided there, which I did then the fight´s were a walk in the park.

HC´s were limited due the gear available, as it took a while to grind the points for it or to be able to afford the enchants - some went for 4k on my server or were not available at all.

 

If you had the gear together, the HC´s did again not offer much and were most of the time very easy. Exceptions like LK HC 10 men are ofc. there, but the majority of the content does not really need much.

 

Ofc I do have a bit more knowledge than the WOTLK gamer, but in the end it was not very fun to have content that is only repeated constantly and only hard because of some achivements that you can get for some goofy items or titles.

 

The constant whine you describe was of low skilled players that sorry to say, were brought to wow at WOTLK. They did not understand the simple mechanics like CC, Mana management, CR, OT, kiting etc.

 

As I said, wow aint so great - it really is not, atleast not anymore.

Edited May 8, 2012 by RachelAnne

[ReckonerH]

My main reasons for leaving ....

 

1) Re-rolled twice due to servers dying.

2) Cant find groups to do flashpoints or heroics

3) PVP is mind shatteringly bad

4) Kill these three guys who just stand there......now kill these three guys who just stand there.....hey here are three more guys who just stand there, I guess I need to kill them.

5) In my opinion companions are a huge mistake. I hated having to rely on a AI controlled companion to play with. (If they die, chances are you are going down too)

6) WAY too instanced

 

7) Game engine is terrible.