Subs down 25%

[Scerge]

TOR started going downhill around febuary.

 

Late beta, Early Access and December was pretty much the glory months of the game.

 

God I miss that, now I can't even log in without looking at the server statuses and seeing how low they all are

 

I don't want to waste my time on a dying game.

[CygnusMX]

I just dont think some people can cope with leaving a game they've been stuck in for 7 years, they rather not go through the growing pains of a new mmo and just stay where their at , forever stuck in World of Wascraft.

[jarjarloves]

I just dont think some people can cope with leaving a game they've been stuck in for 7 years, they rather not go through the growing pains of a new mmo and just stay where their at , forever stuck in World of Wascraft.

 

pretty much this. It's weird for some reason MMO players can't deal with their being more then 1 popular MMO. They would rather have only 1 MMO be really succesful and then make fun of anyone else not playing their MMO.

[MasterBalrog]

I'm so sorry that this has to be your first MMO experience Go dump this crap and play Rift. Your eyes will open and will be amazed. The graphics are AMAZING, the CS is amazing, the community is amazing. Go and try it out and I guarentee you won't come back here

 

This is actually a pretty nice MMO, for the current position in its lifecycle. I've played RIFT and while you are correct that it beats SWTOR on almost every technical measure, its story is mind-numbingly boring. I had to force myself to play one character as far as level 10 without falling asleep. SWTOR has never been anything like that boring.

 

Now, if only we could get SWTOR running on RIFT's graphics engine ...

[Dezzi]

And who made it 'supposed to be the major competitor to WoW'? As always; the players themselves with their rose-tinted goggles and not the Devs themselves. They never said to have an ambition to rival WoW, they just wanted a piece of the pie. But the fans made this 'the next WoW killer that will take millions of subs off WoW' and created the unrealistic expectations.

 

And if the end-of-year break even point is 500.000 subs and they are on 1.3 million 5 months in.. the game is still doing good. No other game that launched primarily in the West has ever had that many players so far into the game's history. Only MMO to beat it was Aion, but that was a major launch in Asia and the West. If TOR keeps between 500.000 to 1 million by the end of the first year the game will probably stay strong for some more time. And honestly, I don't see GW2, TERA or TSW have a great impact on the game like many others suggest. And Diablo 3? It will have the same impact as Mass Effect 3 had at best. So a drop in activity of players for some time, but people will keep their subs for when Diablo gets old.

 

Sky is not falling, and the game is not the WoW killer. Amazing eh? That these things can be combined in the current MMO market.

I personally prefer a dozen AAA titles with between 500.000 and 1 million players than 1 monster with 12 million as WoW was. The current MMO market is much healthier than before, if people only let others enjoy the game they enjoy without bashing it or trying to destroy the name of a game just because it is not their personal taste.

 

The "fan expectations are to blame" argument would have some bite if and only if you can show me some examples of where the developers went out to temper player expectations.

 

As it turns out, developers and publishers love it when fans hype a game before and after launch. If they didn't, you'd see them coming out to make statements amounting to, "Oh, calm down guys. We won't actually have many of the features you're expecting. All of that will come later, after we've raked in some development funds for a few months."

 

Instead, they're very happy to leave it at, "Wow! I'm so excited about what we have coming up in 1.4! I can't tell you what's in it, but I can tell you it's going to be awesome!"

 

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dezzi

[tkinnunzero]

I just dont think some people can cope with leaving a game they've been stuck in for 7 years, they rather not go through the growing pains of a new mmo and just stay where their at , forever stuck in World of Wascraft.

 

It's not the current WoW players Bioware needs to woo.

 

Imagine how many ex-WoW players there must be by now. 10 mil? 20 mil? 30 mil? It's those casuals that Bioware needs to reach and retain.

[Stealthy_Monkey]

I just dont think some people can cope with leaving a game they've been stuck in for 7 years, they rather not go through the growing pains of a new mmo and just stay where their at , forever stuck in World of Wascraft.

 

I play multiple mmo's. I've dabbled in pretty much every major mmo released since wow. Still playing wow, and it's still my number 1 game. Why? Because I'm somehow unable to play new games? No, it's because wow does what other games aspire to do: It presents polished pve content that can be done by either hardcore players or people logging on once a week. No matter what you want to do, there are ways of developing your character further, and if I want to play with a group, I can literally do so instantly. I click a button queuing for whatever dungeon I want as a tank, bam, the dungeon is ready.

 

So yeah, you can go on thinking you're somehow more mature as a gamer than me, and I'll keep on playing a game while you stand in fleet.

[BJWyler]

The "fan expectations are to blame" argument would have some bite if and only if you can show me some examples of where the developers went out to temper player expectations.

 

As it turns out, developers and publishers love it when fans hype a game before and after launch. If they didn't, you'd see them coming out to make statements amounting to, "Oh, calm down guys. We won't actually have many of the features you're expecting. All of that will come later, after we've raked in some development funds for a few months."

 

Instead, they're very happy to leave it at, "Wow! I'm so excited about what we have coming up in 1.4! I can't tell you what's in it, but I can tell you it's going to be awesome!"

 

 

Well, first of all, I don't think it's their jobs to do so. I would rather the devs work on deving than playing media moguls (any more than they already do, that is). Second, it wouldn't matter even if they did. As is quite evident in these forums (and society in general), people will only here what they want to hear. It obviously didn't matter how many interviews the devs gave about what was and wasn't going in the game and what they were or were not trying to accomplish, the players heard only what they wanted to hear and presumed a lot of what wasn't. I came into this game with certain expectations and my expectations were met, and my experience was exceeded - because I did my research and cut through the typical bull that always surrounds any game launch.

 

BJ

[Dezzi]

Well, first of all, I don't think it's their jobs to do so. I would rather the devs work on deving than playing media moguls (any more than they already do, that is). Second, it wouldn't matter even if they did. As is quite evident in these forums (and society in general), people will only here what they want to hear. It obviously didn't matter how many interviews the devs gave about what was and wasn't going in the game and what they were or were not trying to accomplish, the players heard only what they wanted to hear and presumed a lot of what wasn't. I came into this game with certain expectations and my expectations were met, and my experience was exceeded - because I did my research and cut through the typical bull that always surrounds any game launch.

 

BJ

 

You're aware that not all developers... develop, yes? The marketing wing of SWTOR is massive.

 

You're telling me that if player expectations necessarily need to be tempered relative to the reality of the game's development, the developers have no obligation to temper those expectations? C'mon.

 

Players will always have expectations--gaming is a competitive market. It's extremely unhealthy for the industry if developers consistently fail to meet or exceed gamers' expectations. It's extremely healthy for the industry when they do; games that push the envelope and deliver what players expect, at least to a moderate degree, will find success. Games that don't will fail.

 

And that's the players' fault?

 

Please.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dezzi

[Unruhe]

So yeah, you can go on thinking you're somehow more mature as a gamer than me, and I'll keep on playing a game while you stand in fleet.

 

This is a big deal to me. Gone are the days where it was normal to wait 20 minutes for a ship to ride and then ride that ship for another 10 and then walk (we didn't have mounts) across a continent to get where you want. Or pay a Wizard an insane amount of cash to port you, and even then portal destinations were few and far between and often kind of out of the way themselves.

 

It isn't WoW's content that gives it so many subs, in my opinion, but rather the feature set. It's a game you can log in and start playing in one way or another almost immediately, and it's "spoiled" the average MMO player, myself included. I'd rather play a game than sit around waiting to play it.

[CygnusMX]

It's not the current WoW players Bioware needs to woo.

 

Imagine how many ex-WoW players there must be by now. 10 mil? 20 mil? 30 mil? It's those casuals that Bioware needs to reach and retain.

 

I agree,ex-Wow players and current WoW haters too,I'm not really an ex Wow fan since i unistalled it before my free game time was up back in 2004 or 05...whenever.

Wow People aren't the only gamers out there,there are plenty who just dont like wow and aren't expecting the next MMO to have exactly what WoW has,especially the Crash Bandicoot inspired charactors

[Deewe]

Absolutely. And, as I've already stated ad nauseum, they NEED to get on the ball with transfers, ranked warzones, endgame content and at least let us know what they're doing for open-world if they hope to enjoy an upward trend of subs, much less hold even.

Honestly at first I was wondering if it was rally reading that from you, considering how you've been (no pun intended) blindly defending BioWare so far.

 

Seems to me you, nailed the game issues being:

1. Server population then faction balance
   
2. Lacking PvP
   
3. No end content
   

 

Solutions being in specific order

1. Character transfert, LFG tool, server merge, incentives for playing republic
   
2. World PvP then ranked Warzones
   
3. Bugs fixes on end content, interesting loot, new instances/raids/carrots.
   

 

It's in the numbers, man. I'm net defending BioWare here when I say that a 25% loss is ABOVE the typical MMO curve for a 6 month old MMO. It is what it is. Don't shoot the messenger. You're right, numbers do speak for themselves, but you have to take ALL of the numbers into consideration, don't you think?

IMHO we are loosing over 150k players monthly since launch and considering

 

The 1.3millions, so 24% subs lost in two month includes:

• Free 30 days that are still running & count the launch in 38 more countries
  
• Trial players are included
  
• Includes all given away legacy 6 free month and free welcome back week
  

We might certainly not even have 1 millions paying subscribers at this point.

Which is bad for everyone as the next step would be to implement Micro Transactions and ditch the game even more.

 

Btw guess you appreciated the tanks in explosive bikinis mention.

[Wrakk]

Waiting for transfers til summer?!

 

Hey, good luck with that. By then you can keep only 3-4 servers to have in overall as it will suffice for player population at that time;)

[Andryah]

.You're telling me that if player expectations necessarily need to be tempered relative to the reality of the game's development, the developers have no obligation to temper those expectations? C'mon.

 

Two comments.

 

1) No actually, they don't have to temper player expectatons, because their player base are supposed to be adults with sufficient ability to discern reality and show an adult level of restraint and self managment of expectations.

 

2) Unfortunately, in the MMO community, many (not all, but many) would not listen to any tempering attempt anyway. They would attack the tempering as raining on the communities parade of delusion.

 

Players will always have expectations--gaming is a competitive market. It's extremely unhealthy for the industry if developers consistently fail to meet or exceed gamers' expectations. It's extremely healthy for the industry when they do; games that push the envelope and deliver what players expect, at least to a moderate degree, will find success. Games that don't will fail.

 

I don't disagree with you on this, but as I said there is no practical way to manage the expectations of the MMO player community. Never has been. Never will be. So I feel you have chosen to be idealistic on this one.

 

And that's the players' fault?

 

Yeah, actually it is. Nobody forces anyone to buy, load, and play a game. Game companies are only obligated to do two things: 1) comply with their published terms of service and 2) provide reasonable good will in their operations of the game. Now, "good will" is one of those things that means different things to different people so let's not go down that rat hole. Players either sense and accept good will (personally) or they do not. Personally I see more good will from Bioware in the early months of this game then almost every other MMO ever produced. [Rift was also very good in the goodwill department, so I am not fanboying for Bioware on the matter of goodwill].

Edited May 10, 2012 by Andryah

[RedWolfs]

Trends of growing MMOs do not start until AFTER the first 6 months. Culling servers after the launch surge/dropoff is normal for every MMO.

 

At the 6 month mark, the trend of increasing subs is atypical. If TOR wished to enjoy that atypical trend, they need to get transfer/shut-downs and ranked warzones out THIS MONTH, get us some solo endgame content, and at least let us know what they're currently doing on their revamped open-world PvP.

 

What are you talking about? There were no server culls in LOTRO, pre NGE SWG, the first 10 years of EQ. Failing MMO's have to cull servers within six months, not successes. LOTRO did not have a huge drop off like this, in fact at this point after its launch they were ADDING servers to accommodate traffic. In what world is this 'normal mmo' behavior. This is fail MMO behavior, like the rift failure, for the same reasons as the rift failure.

 

You point to that failure and say see SWTOR is not failing so badly, when in fact they are on the same flight path Rift was on.Yes I was one of the people who canceled out on rift (after a six month sub) when I learned they had one plan for l1-49 and another same old story plan for l50. All they had was the same old manster wheel for end game, I hope with the forking tech and voice acting SWTOR has more staying power, and as far as the end game and replay-ability goes its the best MMORPG I have played so far.

 

Drop off is normal, 54.2% (2.4mil sold/given away 1.3mil "active" including already canceled but not expired accouts) retention is not, which is what SWTOR has right now. They had to cook the books, by adding 30 days to canceled but not expired accounts, to make it look better than it is for the investors, The free month spreading out the active account drop off over three quarters instead of two was cooking the books.

 

Cherry coating it and saying its normal for a successful mmo is just silly, since its patently not true. When those free months wear off, and the six month holders who have already canceled come off the books we will see the true health of the population, and the news will not be good.

 

I have played a dozen MMORPG's so far both successes and failures, this is what failure looks like. I have seen failures turned around, but you are kidding yourself if you think bug squashing, server mergers, and ranked war zones are going to turn that around. It will take real content releases, combined with an attitude and approach change at Bioware. Something I very much hope occurs, since I am a huge Star Wars fan, and was sad when SOE failed SWG, and it hurts watching Bioware failing SWTOR.

[Andryah]

Waiting for transfers til summer?!

 

Hey, good luck with that. By then you can keep only 3-4 servers to have in overall as it will suffice for player population at that time;)

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hyperbole

 

I see you have perfected it.

[Dezzi]

1) No actually, they don't have to temper player expectatons, because their player base are supposed to be adults with sufficient ability to discern reality and show an adult level of restraint and self managment of expectations.

I'll agree with this... when developers market their games to the very niche audience that is "adults with sufficient ability to discern reality and show an adult level of restraint."

 

As it is, game developers market their games to gamers.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Dezzi

[JeramieCrowe]

Dream on guys. WoW can lose more subs in a year than most MMO's have total. Plus thier last quarterly reports, released today, show them still at 10.2 million "paying" subs. Does not matter where those subs are, same goes for TOR, they wil count thier subs whereever they are in the world. Of course the paying rates will vary according to the exchange rates and such. But the fact remains, they are making money ( profits ) off those subs. When a company loses subs, they make zero off those lost subs.

 

The same with TOR. 400k may sound like a lot, just like the 1.7 million that WoW just lost in only a few months sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.

 

If you can view WoW's losses in a few months as the sky not falling, what is preventing you from viewing this the same way? Just curious...

[oakamp]

TOR started going downhill around febuary.

 

Late beta, Early Access and December was pretty much the glory months of the game.

 

God I miss that, now I can't even log in without looking at the server statuses and seeing how low they all are

 

I don't want to waste my time on a dying game.

 

that is exactly how players feel,

during our peak time, all servers' status are light, except Australia servers.

[Andryah]

I'll agree with this... when developers market their games to the very niche audience that is "adults with sufficient ability to discern reality and show an adult level of restraint."

 

As it is, game developers market their games to gamers.

 

I yield. You got me there.

[JeramieCrowe]

I'll agree with this... when developers market their games to the very niche audience that is "adults with sufficient ability to discern reality and show an adult level of restraint."

 

As it is, game developers market their games to gamers.

 

I yield. You got me there.

 

HAHAHA!! Touche, Dezzi, touche.

[Stalkobot]

Two comments.

 

1) No actually, they don't have to temper player expectatons, because their player base are supposed to be adults with sufficient ability to discern reality and show an adult level of restraint and self managment of expectations.

 

 

Really? I wasn't aware this was an 18 rated game

 

That aside customers have the expectation not to be lied to or even "Clintoned" to. Conan was especially notorious for this and over the course of a couple of months Funcoms share price dropped from a high of $55 to around $3 when they realised AoC wasn't the second coming (back to 19 now, should have grabbed some when it bottomed out) SWTOR has certainly pulled a couple of Clintons most notably claiming players would be amazed at Illum and the 100s v 100s Orvr that would be occurring there....

 

Adults, even jaded souls like myself shouldn't have to expect to be fibbed to and anticipate accordingly.

[Dezzi]

I yield. You got me there.

HAHAHA!! Touche, Dezzi, touche.

Thank you, thank you. I'll be here until the 20th of June. Don't forget to tip your developers.

[GalacticKegger]

People are so funny.

[Valkirus]

The same with TOR. 400k may sound like a lot, just like the 1.7 million that WoW just lost in only a few months sounds like a lot, but it really isn't.

 

If you can view WoW's losses in a few months as the sky not falling, what is preventing you from viewing this the same way? Just curious...

 

Actaully. I understood why they lost those subs. And could not blame many for leaving. Cata was a mistake in design...not in concept. They thought the players wanted more of a challenge so they made the dungeons extremely hard. Not for those who came out of running Lich King Raids on a consistent basies and were geared very well..but for many of the casual games who were not hardcore raiders and therefore did not have the great gear. This was very flustrating to many. Finally Blizz realized they made a mistake and will return to what made WOTLK so successful in MOP. And at the same time have added tools for the casual gamers to gear up better.

 

Plus I been playing WOW before release even, was in closed beta for 6 months. And the fact is..then and now also, they are the King of game makers IMO. Does not mean I hav'nt been displeased at times on thier decisions. I thought very early into Cata." this is not a good change and they will lose a lot of subs over this". Because I know what I was hearing from members from within my own guild. Which is made up primarly of casual gamers. The truth is the core of any MMO is the casual gamers, who just want to logon..play for a hour or two and then go back to thier families and jobs.

 

I am not so sure BioWare understands this like Blizzard does. For them to be successful they need to appeal to the hardcore gamers and also not overlook who is really the bread and butter of thier player base. The casual gamers. I am not confident they do at this moment. I hope I am wrong and have no plans of canceling soon. But time proves all things.