Unruhe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Minimum 350 total pop is required for standard actually, so you either have a one-sided rep deal goin on or.. well. Only 350 players, spread across 2 factions spread across 17 planets and a fleet are required to label a 'MMO' server's population as "standard"?!? Hang on, I need to go laugh and sigh somewhere. Just let us locally host games for up to 4 people and drop the whole subscription idea, EAware. You made a single-player game with some optional multiplayer, not a Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Game worthy of a monthly subscription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 This. Just 5 months this game has lost nearly 50% of it's initial playerbase. I stopped right there. I'm sorry, but never in the history of MMOs can you call box sales the "initial playerbase"... However, if you really want to do that, you'll find that TOR is *STILL* above the curve if you take all other MMO's box sales/giveaways into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rouge Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Well considering I have spent almost the same playing GW1 since launch as I have paid for SWTOR in several months I can live with being that kind of "sucker". I get so sick of people acting like GW/GW2 are P2W games. The first one wasn't, the second one won't be. The only reason we still pay 15$/month is because we are conditioned to it over our years playing MMOs. I find it amusing that the same people who demand F2P MMOs don't demand free-to-watch cable tv channels or free-to-go sport or music events. F2P games are always pay to win games with part of the player base casuals happy to grind a bit and never do all the content. Edited May 9, 2012 by Rouge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirata_Kal Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Casual players have no loyalty anyway. Proof of this is from the quarterly report, where the substantial portion of the decrease are casual players. "Through the end of the quarter, approximately 2.4 million units have sold through. In our last call we indicated that we had 1.7 million active subscribers, and as of the end of April we now have 1.3 million, with a substantial portion of the decrease due to casual and trial players cycling out of the subscriber base, driving up the overall percentage of paying subscribers." http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ERTS/1722257043x0x566984/c10f605c-3487-488e-ad86-b5bb74fe2408/Q4_FY12_Script.pdf Who are the ones still playing this game? The hardcore players, despite no group finder tool. If the lack of a group finder tool is enough to drive you away, by all means, leave. You are not the majority. You really think hardcore players are carrying this game? LMAO! As for people quitting over the lack of a group finder, be careful what you wish for. You might just get it. At least I'm open minded enough to admit that things could happen between now and when my 8th toon hits 50 (still months away) to make me change my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rouge Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Well....yeah, I've stated the same thing over an over again in the PvP forums, that PvPers, themselves, are ruining PvP due to lack of participation, due to the fact that we can't agree on what is acceptable PvP. Freaking "catch-22" situation that can't all be blamed on a developer. If you listen to PvP people, basically they claim that all they want is a planet - aka big zone - of their own where they can PvP sandbox style to their hearts content and capture targets when they wish to do so. I think that BW should give them that, a big Ilum. I think it would be pretty empty on all servers, but I would like to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunkShizzle Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVindictus ESO is not going to play like an Elder Scrolls game. It's going to be a GW2 clone, on the Hero Engine (same Engine as TOR that lags if you have more than 10 people on screen) It's even going to retcon Elder Scrolls lore. your doing it wrong your suppose to say its a wow clone.eather way,its using the hero engine so im sure thats probably going to cut a metric ton of people from playing it.i mean,anyone whos played sw tor knows how much of a failboat the hero engine is Edited May 9, 2012 by CrunkShizzle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog_nz Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Hmm... well, according to last year's conference call, they stated that they needed 500k to "break even", and then an EA rep stated that they needed 1 million for a profit that was "nothing to write home about". This report states that TOR is "very profitable". So, it seems that the actual active subs are at least close to that 1.3 million number, or it wouldn't be "very profitable". ...except that EA are (by their own admission) fudging the numbers by including trial accounts and free gametime as 'active subscriptions', so the number of actual paying accounts is most likely well under a million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 If you listen to PvP people, basically they claim that all they want is a planet - aka big zone - of their own where they can PvP sandbox style to their hearts content and capture targets when they wish to do so. I think that BW should give them that, a big Ilum. I think it would be pretty empty on all servers, but I would like to see it. You know what would happen. If BioWare actually gave what PvPers asked for, it would be called a failure, and all blame would ultimately fall on BioWare. I mean, look what happened with Ilum. I was there. Ilum was EXACTLY what the majority of PvPers asked for. It failed horribly. But look around. How much blame is being placed on the ones that asked for it? Almost none! It's incredibly sad. No, what BioWare should do now is ignore us wishy-washy PvPers, and just do what they do best. Make it for us. When a construction company makes a playground for an elementary school, do they ask the students what they want? Hell no. They make it, and the kids play. I hate to use that analogy, but it holds too true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 (edited) ...except that EA are (by their own admission) fudging the numbers by including trial accounts and free gametime as 'active subscriptions', so the number of actual paying accounts is most likely well under a million. Who doesn't? As I said earlier: How do you know who is the biggest football player when they're all wearing pads? Because THEY'RE ALL WEARING PADS! It still creates an even baseline to compare from. Every developer pads their numbers just as every football coach pads their players. That said, I doubt it's "well under a million". My point of view, however, is from a server that's rated the "20th most populated server", and I have no problem getting a full 24-man together anytime I wish. Edited May 9, 2012 by JeramieCrowe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 your doing it wrong your suppose to say its a wow clone.eather way,its using the hero engine so im sure thats probably going to cut a metric ton of people from playing it.i mean,anyone whos played sw tor knows how much of a failboat the hero engine is No. Many MMOs use the HERO engine. Elder Scrolls Online is using the HERO engine because of its superior face animation control for voice overs. However, for TOR, the HERO engine has been so extensively modified that we don't know, can't even begin, to extrapolate what's causing all the lag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theology Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Who doesn't? As I said earlier: How do you know who is the biggest football player when they're all wearing pads? Because THEY'RE ALL WEARING PADS! It still creates an even baseline to compare from. Every developer pads their numbers just as every football coach pads their players. While you're right, it's a bit different when EA gives a month away to everybody right before the quarter ends and they have to report on it. Atleast other companies dont put it out there so...obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FadenFaste Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Casual players have no loyalty anyway. Proof of this is from the quarterly report, where the substantial portion of the decrease are casual players. Who are the ones still playing this game? The hardcore players, despite no group finder tool. If the lack of a group finder tool is enough to drive you away, by all means, leave. You are not the majority. You weren't paying attention. I am NOT a casual player. I am dead serious about my MMOs, I've never not had a subscription to an MMO since about 2002, and over most of that time, I've played one game at a time, for two or more years in a row. I played EQ for about 3 years, DAoC for 2 years, SWG for 2 years, and my WoW subscription has been continuously active since open beta--that's going on 8 years now. I study the online resources to learn to play my class well, to know what to expect in an instance, and how to streamline my crafting. I am not a casual player, I am a reliable revenue source for the game company. Give me a game I like, and I'm worth the same $180 a year you are, and for just as many years, if not more. What I don't have is 50-80 hours a week to sit around shouting for groups. I have about 10 hours a week to play, and I want to spend that time actually PLAYING. And while I may not be the majority among forum trolls, I suspect that I am part of a valuable constituency of paying subscribers. So here's the deal--they can and should implement a feature that should have been there all along to make the game fun for people like me, too, so that I will send them $500 over the next three years, OR they can blow me off, and I'll keep mailing that money to Blizzard. And so will tens or hundreds of thousands of people just like me, who don't have time to stay up all night posting in the forums. They have a real nice single-player game here, from what I can see. They have about two months--time enough for me to finish all the single-player content--to address my concerns, if they want to get more than another $30 out of me. [Oh, and I never mentioned how I feel about their craptastic, 1990s arcade space combat. X-wings and TIE fighters were COOL in SWG; here, I only run space missions because they are cheap XP, and I resent myself for wasting the time on them. This is Star Wars--space combat is supposed to be FUN, not a chore.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog_nz Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Who doesn't? As I said earlier: How do you know who is the biggest football player when they're all wearing pads? Because THEY'RE ALL WEARING PADS! It still creates an even baseline to compare from. Every developer pads their numbers just as every football coach pads their players. ...except that you're not comparing apples with apples when EA state that the game would be 'very profitable' with over a million subscribers; when in fact the current number of 'active subscriptions' includes a large proportion of trial accounts and players using the month's free gametime (which by SHEER COINCIDENCE was handed out immediately prior to the quarterly report). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haeso Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Agreed. The average per player spent on F2P is $28 per month. I don't know about you all, but I'd rather pay $15 per month for all content available. That number is horrendously skewed by by games that are pay to win, rather than free to play and a number of other things - I could easily list a dozen free to play games, but I'll go ahead and list just one for brevity, arguably one of the best business models and most successful of free to play games: League of Legends. It sells no power, only cosmetics and things you can reasonably acquire through simply playing the game. You can play league of legends competitively without paying a cent - because there are other people with expendable income willing to buy things that have no direct impact on you as a player. Only ****** games are pay to win, GW2 is no such game if the shop from the beta weekend is any indication, it's all worthless junk for the most part. I don't even like gw2 and won't be playing it, but the free to play model can be just as effective as it can be evil. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 While you're right, it's a bit different when EA gives a month away to everybody right before the quarter ends and they have to report on it. Atleast other companies dont put it out there so...obviously. Yet you don't know how much of it actually applies. For instance, my free month hasn't even started yet, so it's not being counted. And for as many people as I see paid for 6 months like I did, none of those are being counted yet. Because the free month doesn't apply until AFTER your payment cycle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog_nz Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Activision's definition of 'active subscribers' when assessing the number of active WoW subscriptions: "World of Warcraft subscribers are defined to include: (1) individuals who have paid a subscription fee or have an active prepaid card to play World of Warcraft , (2) those who have purchased the game and are within their free month of access, and (3) Internet Game Room players who have accessed the game over the last thirty days. The definition of subscribers does not include any players under free promotional subscriptions, expired or cancelled subscriptions, or expired prepaid cards." WHOOPS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuntaSur Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 You weren't paying attention. I am NOT a casual player. I am dead serious about my MMOs, I've never not had a subscription to an MMO since about 2002, and over most of that time, I've played one game at a time, for two or more years in a row. I played EQ for about 3 years, DAoC for 2 years, SWG for 2 years, and my WoW subscription has been continuously active since open beta--that's going on 8 years now. I study the online resources to learn to play my class well, to know what to expect in an instance, and how to streamline my crafting. I am not a casual player, I am a reliable revenue source for the game company. Give me a game I like, and I'm worth the same $180 a year you are, and for just as many years, if not more. What I don't have is 50-80 hours a week to sit around shouting for groups. I have about 10 hours a week to play, and I want to spend that time actually PLAYING. And while I may not be the majority among forum trolls, I suspect that I am part of a valuable constituency of paying subscribers. So here's the deal--they can and should implement a feature that should have been there all along to make the game fun for people like me, too, so that I will send them $500 over the next three years, OR they can blow me off, and I'll keep mailing that money to Blizzard. And so will tens or hundreds of thousands of people just like me, who don't have time to stay up all night posting in the forums. They have a real nice single-player game here, from what I can see. They have about two months--time enough for me to finish all the single-player content--to address my concerns, if they want to get more than another $30 out of me. [Oh, and I never mentioned how I feel about their craptastic, 1990s arcade space combat. X-wings and TIE fighters were COOL in SWG; here, I only run space missions because they are cheap XP, and I resent myself for wasting the time on them. This is Star Wars--space combat is supposed to be FUN, not a chore.] I'm tempted to just proxy vote all of my future comments to you. Again, spoken to the absolute same point I feel. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unruhe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 No. Many MMOs use the HERO engine. Empirically false. Only two MMOs have been released that run on the hero engine. One of them is TOR. The other one released last year and closed down last year. There are some games in development for the engine, yes, but to say "many MMOs use the HERO engine" is 100% false. If you even read some of the info presented by the people behind the engine, they were leery of EA getting their hooks in a more-or-less unfinished, undercooked, and definitely unproven version of the engine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigdaddygarlic Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 What she said. I'm a grown up with a career and a family. I get to play 2 nights a week, and maybe Sunday afternoon. I"ve been playing these games since EQ1, and I have experienced them with and without group finders. Unless you play 20 hours a day, it IS better with a group finder. BW needs to be careful listening to beta testers who say they don't want things that make the game infinitely better for part-time-but-still-serious-and-experienced players. My $15 a month is worth just as much as those beta testers, and once I have a game I'm happy with, I stay with it for years. In this game, aside from running Esseles for social points, I get to play maybe one FP a week. In WoW, even on a "dead" server, I could run them back to back from 8pm till midnight, if I'm willing to tank or heal. This is NOT a trivial problem. If the code for a group finder exists, for god's sake, turn it back on! It could easily mean the difference between my staying here for the next few years, or looking for a more multiplayer experience, either back in WoW, or in a game that realized that in 2012, you HAVE TO SHIP WITH A GROUP FINDER. Period. Group finder should have been shiped you rite about that but its not going to save this game alone. Ranked warzones (Arenas) scheduled events to go along with the random ones a clear reward system meaning no random bags, chests,boxes, whatever you want to call them. A guild that can have a bank with just the minimum that was needed to create it. I blame EA for the beta that we got instead of a real launch but bioware needs to move forward regardless. Faction pride is non existent in this game at all for what I can see it needs to be there. The legacy system is a great idea but it hurts faction pride the way it is at the moment some changes need to be made. I see the scheduled maintenance was postponed I hope that means they have a card yet to play who knows. Well I said my pease on this matter. @ bioware Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 That number is horrendously skewed by by games that are pay to win, rather than free to play and a number of other things - I could easily list a dozen free to play games, but I'll go ahead and list just one for brevity, arguably one of the best business models and most successful of free to play games: League of Legends. It sells no power, only cosmetics and things you can reasonably acquire through simply playing the game. You can play league of legends competitively without paying a cent - because there are other people with expendable income willing to buy things that have no direct impact on you as a player. Only ****** games are pay to win, GW2 is no such game if the shop from the beta weekend is any indication, it's all worthless junk for the most part. I don't even like gw2 and won't be playing it, but the free to play model can be just as effective as it can be evil. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If you don't think that the AVERAGE income for an F2P game is close to $28 per month for even fluff item games, you have your head in places it ought not be. There are players that spend next to nothing. Then, there are players that buy EVERYTHING. Thus the definition of the word AVERAGE. Still, with sub-based games, you get EVERYTHING for $15/month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mothermonterr Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Matrix cube hotfix delayed. GJ biofail. Just shows how they deliver when it comes to patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Empirically false. Only two MMOs have been released that run on the hero engine. One of them is TOR. The other one released last year and closed down last year. There are some games in development for the engine, yes, but to say "many MMOs use the HERO engine" is 100% false. If you even read some of the info presented by the people behind the engine, they were leery of EA getting their hooks in a more-or-less unfinished, undercooked, and definitely unproven version of the engine. Well, here's the thing: Say the HERO engine is broken. One can argue that BioWare has so extensively modified the engine, anyway, that one cannot POSSIBLY blame the engine, itself, for TOR's fallacies. On the other hand, one can claim that the engine's fallacies are so fundamental, that it's not TOR's fault it sucks. After all, it wasn't, necessarily, up to the devs to choose the engine, just up to them to pull a rabbit out their hat and make it work. Which are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeramieCrowe Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Matrix cube hotfix delayed. GJ biofail. Just shows how they deliver when it comes to patches. Same-day postponement. Instead it will likely be next-day fix. INCREDIBLY faster than any other developer in history. That's a bad thing? I'm sorry, I tend to be Sheldon Cooper when it comes to internet humor and sarcasm. Please, tell me you're joking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunkShizzle Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 ya but the hero engine isnt the only reason why swtor is so bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrunkShizzle Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 INCREDIBLY faster than any other developer in history. any other developer wouldnt of broke something when they patched something anyway or something as serious as deleting a best in slot item from alot of people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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