Gear Grinding , am I the Only One who Hates it?

[Sorwen]

The fact that your character progresses through some sort of a grind, through both gear and leveling, is the basis for each RPG going all the way back to pen and paper, D&D-like games.

 

Take away those elements, and you may as well be playing Halo. Static characters with no progression would be quite boring to me.

This is the kind of misconception that is part of the problem. RPG does not equal grind. Sadly it is this very misconception that has most MMOs now being a grind. The only requirement of a standard RPG is improvement through advancement. There is nothing saying it has to be a grind to do it. RPGs also used to be more about improving the character not the gear, but that kind of went the wayside thanks to EQ in later expansions and then even more so to WoW.

[Sraom]

Fundamentally, players need something to strive for. Gear has become that. However, you only have so many resources available, so you turn things into grinding to get gear. If you look back at Everquest, it was a never ending quest. It took insane hours of killing mobs over and over to get levels. If you died, you lost XP. At high levels, this meant losing levels!

 

So MMO, but their nature, will have a grind to it. I think if you want a model of how to make it feel less like a grind, look at DAOC:

 

1. No PvP Gear

2. Rewards give slight improvement to your character, but not something that is unbalancing

3. Open world PvP (not instanced warzones.)

4. Gear comes from PvE.

5. No real grinding to get gear anymore (that is you don't run the some quest over and over to get the item you want.)

6. Multiple ways to get gear.

7. Gear is important, but up to a point. Gear won't really let you win, but it will get you killed.

 

So the best solution would be to allow the PvE people to keep grinding, and then redo PvP to be along DAOC lines. If you are out there fighting other players over real objectives, earning realm ranks, then you are having fun and not grinding.

 

It makes sense in a PvE focused game, or a game focused on individual progression.

but I also believe a game with little progression, or at least easy-to-get BiS is possible, especially if it focuses on PvP.

 

For example, in Shadowbane people could have guild vs guild battles for days and never get bored of it.

In SB, progression is more about economics but less about individual progression, but people still find it fun.

 

Even though it is probably not that successful a game, people can learn from it.

[Sirsri]

It makes sense in a PvE focused game, or a game focused on individual progression.

but I also believe a game with little progression, or at least easy-to-get BiS is possible, especially if it focuses on PvP.

 

For example, in Shadowbane people could have guild vs guild battles for days and never get bored of it.

In SB, progression is more about economics but less about individual progression, but people still find it fun.

 

Even though it is probably not that successful a game, people can learn from it.

 

As you said, shadowbane wasn't that successful a game. They learned not to copy that. WoW had 12 million players. There are PVE and PVP progression paths which both basically have a 'gear grind'. That works. So they're doing that. Now, admittedly, if you like that sort of thing you might just play wow, and maybe SWTOR would have been better to innovate something new, but that could also have been a disaster, which when you spend hundreds of millions of dollars is not a risk you necessarily want to take.

 

Ultimately you need something that people can log in every day and do, but don't *have* to log in every day to get anything done. Weekly raids with some hamster wheel of progression seems to be reasonably popular, and it's not a bad strategy to copy, but the tuning part (how quickly you can get gear, how much better it should be, and the gear variety) makes a huge difference, I think BioWare is still finding its footing on that.

[Sbolla]

Pve - Gear grind is completely fine.

 

Pvp - retarded imo , there should be a little to no advantage to being a nolifer.

[Urael]

As you said, shadowbane wasn't that successful a game. They learned not to copy that. WoW had 12 million players. There are PVE and PVP progression paths which both basically have a 'gear grind'. That works. So they're doing that. Now, admittedly, if you like that sort of thing you might just play wow, and maybe SWTOR would have been better to innovate something new, but that could also have been a disaster, which when you spend hundreds of millions of dollars is not a risk you necessarily want to take.

 

Ultimately you need something that people can log in every day and do, but don't *have* to log in every day to get anything done. Weekly raids with some hamster wheel of progression seems to be reasonably popular, and it's not a bad strategy to copy, but the tuning part (how quickly you can get gear, how much better it should be, and the gear variety) makes a huge difference, I think BioWare is still finding its footing on that.

 

However, with gear score creep necessary to participate in certain content the grind becomes a necessary daily task if one does not want to get left behind.

 

There needs to be a better system with emphasis on "skill" (such as it is in an MMORPG) vs. "stats".

 

Thoughts?

[Brimmer]

I hate it; but even more so I hate the fact that ops gear is too easy/good. Ops and hardmode gear should be equal value.

[Bluerodian]

I'm certainly hoping that they come up with something more than gear grinds for endgame. I've done it in the past and where TOR is concerned I absolutely will not get on the gear treadmill again no matter what the devs say or do. Been there, done that, not doing it again.

[Valperion]

I love to play MMO's but the massive gear ladders are so tiring and so boring. Like everyone else, I do like to see new shiny stuff, but I sure don't like the gear dependence.

 

It's all just a huge grind and it feels like what really matters in the game is just gear, not the content, not the challenge, but just gear. Which = grinding treadmill.

 

I remember my first attempt on Battle of Ium with some friends a couple of months ago. We were having a blast, we were having fun, barely staying alive on the first boss....Then the engrage timer kicked in. Wipes and failure. Very frustrating and very lazy.

 

Jump ahead a month later. We run Battle of Ilum and fly right through it. It was so incredibly annoying because it wasn't skill or play that enabled us to succeed, it was having better gear.

 

So, is this what we have to look forward to? Grinding and Gear Gating? Isn't there a way to challenge players without gear dependency? What happens to players that take a summer break? Do they end up so far behind that end game content is now further than ever from their grasp?

 

Tell me there is more than just Gear Checks and Gear Gating, over and over and over and over again. I don't have the answer, but I am not in the business. If somebody does indeed figure this out, it will become the next generation of MMO's.

 

You must be new to mmo industry.

 

There must always be a gear grind, or people would get the best gear in the game in a relativity short amount of time.

* After people get the best gear in the game, they might give up since.

* They have beaten the game.

* The gear grind in this game is no offense, the most casual grind I've ever seen.

* It takes on average for a pvp player a week to get enough warzone comms for a full battlemaster set.

* While you compare a game like "Lineage2", where it takes "Months" to get levels and gear.

[Sasheria]

Gear Grind is always going to be around unless someone can come up with something that is better than gear grind.

 

One of the idea back in the old days in UO was skill base play. Smarter game play wins the game vs type of gear. These are VERY hard to do without being "burn out" by "hard core gamers"

 

Tactics is one of the way where you can do without gear grind, but how many tactics can you do? Do you have "ever changing boss" like CoX (Hamidon) where the devs tweak the boss once in while and still need 20+ heroes (or 10 really well coordinate heroes) to bring him down?

 

Gear make instance/dungeon run challenging. you start off with "semi-hard" but it is "easier" with proper gear (skill remains the same but the gear buff that) and you get better gear to tackle "harder" instance/dungeon. This is easier to code and progress where everyone understands.

 

Tactics base is bit harder especially if you make something that "need specific class" to win.

 

The only thing I can see MMO to jump to the next "evolution end game" would be an AI controlling mobs (which would be like players) OR so something similar to LoTRO but with a twist.

 

Players can help assist/boss (they are the adds) if they defeat the player before the enrage timer, they get gear, but if the attacking party beat the defending team, they get better gear (it is beneficial for attacking players so prevent abuse on defending side) or maybe defending side get tokens (once a week per instance) they can run as defenders and get tokens to exchange for gear

[Sraom]

As you said, shadowbane wasn't that successful a game. They learned not to copy that. WoW had 12 million players. There are PVE and PVP progression paths which both basically have a 'gear grind'. That works. So they're doing that. Now, admittedly, if you like that sort of thing you might just play wow, and maybe SWTOR would have been better to innovate something new, but that could also have been a disaster, which when you spend hundreds of millions of dollars is not a risk you necessarily want to take.

 

Ultimately you need something that people can log in every day and do, but don't *have* to log in every day to get anything done. Weekly raids with some hamster wheel of progression seems to be reasonably popular, and it's not a bad strategy to copy, but the tuning part (how quickly you can get gear, how much better it should be, and the gear variety) makes a huge difference, I think BioWare is still finding its footing on that.

 

I'm only saying that a game without gear grind is possible, because people can still find the game fun even when they already have BiS, and that's what I felt when I played Shadowbane.

 

Just think about one thing: there's no gear, what motivates people to play LOL over and over again? Shooters? Starcraft 2?

 

In fact, from the info I got, GW2's 'grind' is also almost purely economy based for WvWvW PvP.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Sraom

[Sraom]

Gear Grind is always going to be around unless someone can come up with something that is better than gear grind.

 

One of the idea back in the old days in UO was skill base play. Smarter game play wins the game vs type of gear. These are VERY hard to do without being "burn out" by "hard core gamers"

 

Tactics is one of the way where you can do without gear grind, but how many tactics can you do? Do you have "ever changing boss" like CoX (Hamidon) where the devs tweak the boss once in while and still need 20+ heroes (or 10 really well coordinate heroes) to bring him down?

 

Gear make instance/dungeon run challenging. you start off with "semi-hard" but it is "easier" with proper gear (skill remains the same but the gear buff that) and you get better gear to tackle "harder" instance/dungeon. This is easier to code and progress where everyone understands.

 

Tactics base is bit harder especially if you make something that "need specific class" to win.

 

The only thing I can see MMO to jump to the next "evolution end game" would be an AI controlling mobs (which would be like players) OR so something similar to LoTRO but with a twist.

 

Players can help assist/boss (they are the adds) if they defeat the player before the enrage timer, they get gear, but if the attacking party beat the defending team, they get better gear (it is beneficial for attacking players so prevent abuse on defending side) or maybe defending side get tokens (once a week per instance) they can run as defenders and get tokens to exchange for gear

 

I believe if there's no gear grind, then flexibility and uncertainty is probably what's needed for designing PvE.

 

For example, like Halo 3: ODST's firefight mode.

 

We could use a difficulty system like this:

Say, 10 waves of mobs of bronze, silver and gold difficulty;

Platinum difficulty is gold+ unlimited waves;

Diamond difficulty is platinum + each wave after 10th, the system puts a random debuff on you.

 

For platinum and diamond, the thing to strive for is how far you can get.

 

Could also use achievement system and etc.

 

I don't know how it will work, but just...a thought.

[fadingdimension]

Then stop grinding gear and just play for the fun of it. If you're still not having fun then do yourself a favor and stop. It's very self destructive to spend your leisure time forcing yourself to do something you don't enjoy.

 

The simple explanation of why MMO's have such a gear grind; It keeps people rehashing the same content over and over. Thus continuing to pay their sub fee and allowing developers time to create new content.

 

I agree that there isn't much to do in this game outside of pvp or pve progression. It's sad to see such a massive and dynamic game in SWG get shut down and basically replaced by this game which doesn't come close to the complexity of SWG.

 

I've seen people mention GW2 being less about gear grinding. Well that game isn't going to have a monthly fee. Do the math.

 

Again, stop grinding gear and just play for fun. If it's not fun then stop.

Edited May 4, 2012 by fadingdimension

[Sraom]

Then stop grinding gear and just play for the fun of it. If you're still not having fun then do yourself a favor and stop. It's very self destructive to spend your leisure time forcing yourself to do something you don't enjoy.

 

The simple explanation of why MMO's have such a gear grind; It keeps people rehashing the same content over and over. Thus continuing to pay their sub fee and allowing developers time to create new content.

 

I agree that there isn't much to do in this game outside of pvp or pve progression. It's sad to see such a massive and dynamic game in SWG get shut down and basically replaced by this game which doesn't come close to the complexity of SWG.

 

I've seen people mention GW2 being less about gear grinding. Well that game isn't going to have a monthly fee. Do the math.

 

Again, stop grinding gear and just play for fun. If it's not fun then stop.

 

In PvE, you fight exactly the same encounter over and over again in the current system; in PvP, gear plays too big a role and better gear just facerolls lesser gear.

 

So yeah, in the current system, 'just playing for fun' isn't exactly an easy thing to do.

 

It also depends on whether the 'casual' activities are fun or not, or grindy or not.

While I'm not a big fan of wow's achievement hunt, I like the space combat grind and datacron hunt even less.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Sraom

[Jandi]

If you hate gear progression you're playing the wrong game. It's like playing a driving game and saying you hate driving. It's stupid. There is no valid argument whatsoever to be made, it's an integral part of the game and the RPG genre in general, to get better stuff to get more powerful.

[Marlaine]

deleted. Edited May 5, 2012 by Marlaine

[Master-Nala]

Ok i see what you dont like, now please try tell us what you want out of an MMO?

 

Gearing is a path, I enjoy our weekly ops. Ill go in geared knowing theres nothing at all going to drop for me but it helps gear our new guys and we do have a laugh.

 

Next gen MMO? bring it on, Like you i just cant see where they should go, all I can do is make the most of what we get.

 

Horizontal progression. Things like Everquest and EQ II's AA system and City of Heroes Incarnate system. Things that make your character more powerful through a variety of activities. Your power isn't dependent on gear as much as the effort you put in. Now to be fair, the Everquest series does the loot grind AND the AAs but that's part of why I left.

[Satans_Puppet]

I don't mind Gear Grinding but when you spend HOURS and Hours and HOURS in WZ's or working through content... you don't want gear to look the same. Everytime I get a new piece of Battlemaster gear it only looks like the old set but with a different colour.

 

I'm worried the same will happen for war hero and my character won't be pimpin for all the efoort I put in

[WereMops]

I love to play MMO's but the massive gear ladders are so tiring and so boring. Like everyone else, I do like to see new shiny stuff, but I sure don't like the gear dependence.

 

It's all just a huge grind and it feels like what really matters in the game is just gear, not the content, not the challenge, but just gear. Which = grinding treadmill.

 

I remember my first attempt on Battle of Ium with some friends a couple of months ago. We were having a blast, we were having fun, barely staying alive on the first boss....Then the engrage timer kicked in. Wipes and failure. Very frustrating and very lazy.

 

Jump ahead a month later. We run Battle of Ilum and fly right through it. It was so incredibly annoying because it wasn't skill or play that enabled us to succeed, it was having better gear.

 

So, is this what we have to look forward to? Grinding and Gear Gating? Isn't there a way to challenge players without gear dependency? What happens to players that take a summer break? Do they end up so far behind that end game content is now further than ever from their grasp?

 

Tell me there is more than just Gear Checks and Gear Gating, over and over and over and over again. I don't have the answer, but I am not in the business. If somebody does indeed figure this out, it will become the next generation of MMO's.

 

You're not alone, the gear grind that most (if not all) MMO's have in the end is not fun for me.

 

When the only way left for my character to "grow" in an MMO is the gear grind I usually lose interest in that character and switch to a new one (or I might even delete and re-roll an already maxed out character that I'm not totally happy with name or appearance), sometimes I do a little casual gear grind on the side with a maxed out character but that's quite rare.

[Lt_Latency]

Yes, it's too much.

 

I have a job where I need to travel to client sites out of country during the week every now and again so I can't always do my dailies. I like this game and want to keep playing but I am really thinking about quitting for GW2 for the sole reason that i don't have to keep grind for gear there.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Lt_Latency

[hippiechick]

I played a game called Asherons Call. It was THE best game I ever played and one of the reasons was that gear had NOTHING to do with it. Yes you COULD get the best chest piece ever but you had the same chance of getting it as anyone else as it was a random loot drop off ANY mob that you tinked up. Some of the quest gear was pretty good too and ANY one could get it. But you didnt need ANY of it to play the game. In fact we used to do naked runs just for the fun of it. Yes we died, yes it was harder, but it could be done.

 

Ahhh the memories. I sure loved that game. And I hate the gear grind in games too btw lol.

 

M

[Graydon]

Some of these replies crack me up:

 

"You must be new to MMO's"

"You need a carrot"

"You need gear for harder challenges"

 

Well that's great for you I guess, if you like to repeat the same activity over and over. Isn't there a famous quote, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to come out different"

 

So lets all to the same Operation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again so we all get the necessary gear to do ...

 

The next Tier Operation over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over over again so we all the the necessary gear to do ....

 

So what about the sane players? The ones that would like to succeed at the next tier Operation? Are we forever excluded? I am not asking for the best most OMG super uber duper epeen lootz, I just want the same opportunity to run content and succeed without the silly grinding.

 

There is nothing challenging regarding gameplay about grinding.

 

Nothing changes with the next tier, BW developers just add more numbers to the totals. Enrage timers are lazy and stupid.

[Dext]

Sorry, but I can't.

 

TOR is an extraordinarily vanilla-flavoured, cookie-cutter, I-wish-was-WoW game.

 

Once you've taken a character or two to 50 and ground out some gear... yeah... that's it.

 

And that's why people are leaving in droves.

 

Zzzzzzzzzzzzz...

 

All MMO's are just a Gear Grind. just a FYI WoW did nothing but copy EQ.

[-Pi-]

As soon as I reach the grind wall I move along and make another char, when no more char slots then change MMO.

[PizzaRollDeluxe]

I'ld like to deal with two major misconceptions in this thread. The first is that pen and paper RPGs were about levelling and gear grinding. Let's try that one out:

 

DM: Ok, so the King's servant has requested that in order to deal with the rat infestation you have to bring back 20 rat skulls to him.

Player: You must be joking? Well, ok, I guess that means we just have to kill 20 rats, right?

DM: No because despite them all being rats they won't all have rat skulls so you might have to kill about 40 or 50.

Player: I'm not sure about this...

DM: Oh, don't worry, some of them might have gold or even better weapons for you and think about all the experience you will be getting from killing rats. You'll be level 5 before you know it.

Player: ....

 

Pen and paper RPGs were about adventuring, living out fantasies similar to the ones that players had read about in Tolkien and Howard books. Game mechanics and rules were added and made more complex than the simple board games of the time to add some versimilitude and feeling of risk to what was largely a descriptive experience. Levelling and loot was just an added bonus to the fun of adventuring. If half the stuff you see in most MMOs was tried by a real DM they wouldn't have many players at the next session.

 

The second is that gear grinding is an essential element to MMOs. Guild Wars was a very successful model for both PvP and PvE. Level cap could be reached relatively quickly and, although stats based, pretty much all equipment at level cap was at parity. At least a third of PvE content at launch was designed for characters at level cap. Increasing difficulty was expected to be met by better cooperation and play from the players, not from treadmill stat increases. For those who enjoyed the process, gear grinding was available through craftable armors and rare weapons but these elements were purely aesthetic and thus totally optional. Post launch continued interest was maintained in PvE through the introduction of new classes, areas, missions, quests and events and in PvP through new classes, new pvp options and very varied, balanced skill mechanics.

 

In my opinion, gear grinding is one of the laziest mechanics open to game developers and definitely has no place in any sort of competitive PvP environment. Originally with the Orange Armors I had hoped that SWTOR had learned this lesson but it appears not.

[Bigdaddygarlic]

Hate to say it but grind grind grind and grind some more for your gear is what swtor is all about.

PVP is more about gear and less about skill in swtor...very gear dependent .

And for those who say otherwise...throw on some lvl 50 blue gear then take a shot in a pvp match against a guy in a full set of the top pvp gear and let me know how that goes.

It was the same in Age of Conan. A ll I did was pvp and had all the top gear and new players without the gear had no chance no matter how good they may have been.

 

Well you should lose in that scenario that is almost as bad as saying a naked Toon should be able to stand up against one with gear on.

Yes PVP in stor is gear base but not by such a crazy margin someone in Full Battle master gear that's good can beat someone in full War hero gear that's bad.

And with the added recruit gear for sell at the vendor its much easier to get started in pvp.