Diminishing Returns > Resolve System

[kweassa]

SWTOR:

- First stun (4s)- use "pvp trinket" - Second stun (4s) - immune = Stunned for 4s

- First stun (4s)- don't use "pvp trinket" - Second stun (4s) - use "pvp trinket" - immune = Stunned for 4s

 

WoW:

- First stun (4s)- use "pvp trinket" - Second stun (2s) - immune = Stunned for 2s

- First stun (4s)- don't use "pvp trinket" - Second stun (2s) - use "pvp trinket" - immune = Stunned for 4s

 

 

Different DRs can be a mess (and probaly still) in WoW, look at how many changes was to put different things in a one DR (like polymorph and ring of frost, two absolutly different effects put in one DR cathegory to keep things balanced).

 

But from a point of a hard stuns with no chances to fight back (this cathegory is generating most PvP-rage about CC), WoW in a BETTER spot, than SWTOR.

 

CCing in SWTOR PvP is used 70% of the time STUN effect (which EVERYONE have, but Marauders), and other 30% are knockbacks/roots (why 30%? just because not everyone have them and they are annoing only melee classes most of the time).

 

So, it looks kind of ridiculous, but i prefer DR system in SWTOR and Resolve system in WoW (to put all this CC ***** just in one bar, to be immune after second ones and not stay here for 1+ minute in CC chain Sap-Fear-Poly-Stun-MC-Trap-Cyclone-repeat.

 

So very conveniently you leave out the fact that most hard stuns in WoW are much longer in duration than our 4 seconds. Fear lasts on average 8 seconds on the first application, with a second application bringing it down to 4 seconds. A 3rd applications puts in another 2 seconds, so in theory that's 14 seconds alone, although dealing damage has a chance to break fear. On top of that certain Warlock builds also have a stun. So, coordinated attacks from multiple Warlocks or Priests will have you running around dazed for 9~10 seconds, and then add a nice creamy topping of extra stun on top of it.

 

What if there's a Succubus pet? Hello. Add in another 8 seconds of mez that also rolls on a separate DR count. Similar mez skills like blind, are also on average 8 seconds duration. How about polymorph? Anyone up for Polymorph?

 

On average, WoW CCs are much more numerous in their numbers, so finding 2~3 rotations of different types that does not have overlapping DR effect is very easy. The average CC duration goes well over 7~8 seconds even with DR in effect, and average hard stuns can last much longer than the 8 seconds of back-to-back hard stun we have, not to mention almost all of those CCs are in much shorter CD than in SWTOR, where we wait a full minute to reuse.

 

Mentioning DR in SWTOR without consideration towards above facts, is simply fallacy.

Edited May 4, 2012 by kweassa

[LenrocNewDawn]

Well I am sorry to say but BW doesnt care. This topic keeps comming up time and time again. I have made god knows how many posts about it. Hey its just one more reason why the majority of you pvp community is leaving this game. As soon as these other games hit you will see the population drop even further. The resolve system is total fail because you can still be stunned and cc'ed even at a full white bar. Anyway good luck because you are going to get alot of flame about how this system is great and you just need to learn how to use your cc break

 

If we are going to make 500 posts about Earth being flat will you start caring? I don't give a dead rats arse what you are going to do when the next FOTM game hits. For all I care you can go to that game forum complaining about how that game fail to meet your very important desires. About how resolve works there are several guides, threads and testing done on this very forum if you don't bother reading that but still post nonsense and misinformation prepare to be flamed. That's the way it works. Don't get me wrong it's OK to criticize and ask for improvements but do that after you know its ropes, not before.

 

Oh, and you lie about being stunned when resolve is active, through your teeth even.

Edited May 4, 2012 by LenrocNewDawn

[Xarielle]

The problem is that TTK is too short not so much the CC system. Not to say that resolve doesn't need tweaks.

[gabusan]

A diminishing returns system would destroy classes that depend on activation times and channeled abilities to do anything. Battles in warzones are team efforts no one on one duels. Edited May 4, 2012 by gabusan

[Sookster]

WoW and City of Heroes both has a decent DR system in pvp, they're leaps and bounds better than resolve system.

[Boissi]

I liked the vanilla wow stunlocks, though I have no idea how the system has progressed. But lets say a rogue opens with cheapshot (4sec stun), builds combopoints, kidneyshots (6 second stun, not a shared DR), does damage, uses gouge (5,5 second mezz), runs away, gets out of combat, stealthes again. Might sap at this point just to wait out the DR (10 second mezz, shares dr with gouge, so 5 seconds), then opens with cheapshot again, and then kidneyshot, totaling another 10 seconds of hard stuns. At this point you could blind, which is a mezz that shares no DR with anything, and restealth. You could stunlock some classes almost indefinitely provided they didn't have their trinket up, and that was on a 5 minute cooldown back then.

 

So yeah, I guess cheapshot and kidneyshot share DR these days then? And stuns from other classes do as well? One thing I seem to remember from vanilla wow is that most classes didnt have stuns. Priests had fear, warrs had fear, mages just had slows and roots, etc. I think that was good. In ToR every class and their mom has a stun and a mezz / knockback, or even all three.

 

The problem I can see with harsh diminishing returns where everything is on the same DR-counter is the fact that it would gimp some classes badly in 1on1, and even make them more useless in group combat, say an immortal warr and an operative. You wouldn't really spec for the knockdown anymore, since it would just shorten your big stun by 2 seconds. And in the case of the warrior: well, he specs that far just to get more control in the form of two instant stuns just to have them be worthless if you're trying to control just one target. Suddenly your instant choke only lasts as long as your GCD. Bummer.

 

But then again, if the diminishing returns aren't harsh enough you'll just have an even worse stunfest.

 

Meh, I don't know. I think resolve is a fine system, though maybe it does require a bit of tweaking. Shortening the cooldown of the CC breaker wouldn't be a bad solution either.

[madtycoon]

The DR system works in WoW, because there are a lot of different types of cc (silence, disarm, etc.) and there are many counters to cc. All classes in wow can pretty much counter a majority of incoming cc and in this game you simply can't. Example, take a disc priest currently against a rogue. A priest can counter cheap shot/kidney with pain sup, they can counter garrote with inner focus, they can counter gouge/blind with shadow word death, etc etc. Most CC is removable also, which again in this game isn't the case. Not to mention the dispel in this game has a cooldown. So if someone terrifies a group of people, you're only going to be able to effectively dispel 1 of those people.

 

Resolve is an easier system. Instead of keeping track of multiple DRs or I guess having a mod, you can just look over someone's head and see if they have a white bar. Most players can't even do this right and you'll notice countless grips/stuns/knockbacks attempted during full resolve.

 

IMO, the white bar should remain ~15 seconds. DR is 15 seconds in wow. The biggest problem right now in this game's pvp isn't the resolve bar (although i think its a flawed mechanic), its the TTK and overall damage that is being done compared to the damage reduction people have.

 

WoW's DR system would only work here with immobilizations. Like someone before said, knockbacks DRing could never really be implemented unless it would just make you straight immune after 2?

Edited May 4, 2012 by madtycoon

[Sookster]

There's a reason why Blizzard added in DR after TBC, carrying the flag in WSG was a nightmare pre TBC because you'd never make it halfway through the map while constnatly being snared, stunned, turned into a sheep, dazed, etc. With DR in place, you can only be hit by CC at least 3 times from that one person and get away far enough with a 10 second window before the DR resets from that player's CC. First stun would be 8 seconds, next would be 4 seconds, next would be 1.5 seconds, etc. There were multiple trinklets to break CC, unlike this game that only has ONE on a frigging 2 minute cooldown.

 

Cyclone was the only annoying knockback ability in that game, hunter's KB wasn't that bad, pretty much what snipers has in this game but snipers has more than one.

 

But this game... ugh, I was literally a pingpong ball last night in huttball, getting knocked back and forth multiple times in a row and then getting stunned with 3 marauders jumping to me along with an operative, breaking the CC only to get flashbanged (full resolve) preventing me from escaping with 4 people on me.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Sookster

[Exilim]

1 min cooldown on the CC break, and change the current talents in certain classes that shorten it to something more useful.

[Darth_Philar]

In this game we have the following CCs:

 

Stuns - 200 Resolve per second, does not break on damage. These come in 2*, 3, and 4 second lengths.

* The 2 second stuns are all talented extra effects.

 

Mezzes - 100 Resolve per second, does break on damage. These come in 8 second lengths.

 

Knockbacks - 400 Resolve per application. Includes all hostile push or pull abilities that forcibly move your player.

 

Snares - No Resolve. These reduce your player's movement speed. As they do not prevent the use of abilities they are not considered CCs by BW. They are part of the Kiting metagame.

 

Roots - No Resolve. These are 100% snares. Again, they do not prevent use of abilities and are thus not considered CCs by BW.

 

The Resolve bar has two modes:

Purple: The bar has less than 1000 points. When CCed the Resolve points are added to the bar. Once the CC ends the bar starts to decline at a rate of 25/second.

 

White: The bar has at least 1200 points (due to the bonus resolve system, no combination of effects will ever result in a Resolve value of 1000-1199 meaning you will always have a minimum of 12 seconds of white resolve). You are immune to new Stuns, Mezzes, and Knockbacks (if you are currently Stunned or Mezzed it will not be broken). Resolve declines immediately at a rate of 100/second.

 

Bonus Resolve works like this: Any CC effect that adds enough Resolve to make your Resolve value 1000 or more will receive a 50% bonus. For example:

1. You are stunned for 4 seconds giving you 800 Resolve (200/sec * 4 sec)

2. You are hit with a knockback giving you an additional 400 Resolve

3. Since 800 + 400 =1200 and 1200 > 1000 you receive a bonus on the 400 of 200 (400 * 0.5) bringing your grand total Resolve to 1400 (800 + 400 + 200). You will now be CC immune for 14 seconds.

 

Any combination of CC that contains a Stun or a Mezz will result in CC immunity after 2 effects.

It is possible to suffer 3 Knockbacks in a row before you receive immunity.

 

Please see Kaarsa's research thread for more detailed information:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=390716

Edited May 4, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[xChroniCx]

/sign

 

This game is in dyer need of dr. Make all stuns share dr, roots!!! Omg make roots have a dr but fill no resolve ( perfect fix), and all mez's share a different dr. 3 different types of cc on 3 different dr's, make it happen!!!

 

Being stunned for 7-8 seconds straight is not fun especially with the burst in this game.

Edited May 4, 2012 by xChroniCx

[Kaarsa]

Dont you find it funny that half threads in pvp forum are currently "marauders are OP" and the other half (as usual) "resolve is broken, it is not preventing chain CC and roots not being part of resolve are gamegreaking"?

 

Hint: Roots off resolve system can be used as direct counter to marauders. Best way to beat marauder is to CC him in correct moment.

 

PS. DR system is infinately worse than resolve.

 

PS2. Can anyone point me to this mythical MMORPG where you can not be stunned for 8 sec in the row? (FPS is not MMORPG;))

[xChroniCx]

Dont you find it funny that half threads in pvp forum are currently "marauders are OP" and the other half (as usual) "resolve is broken, it is not preventing chain CC and roots not being part of resolve are gamegreaking"?

 

Hint: Roots off resolve system can be used as direct counter to marauders. Best way to beat marauder is to CC him in correct moment.

 

PS. DR system is infinately worse than resolve.

 

PS2. Can anyone point me to this mythical MMORPG where you can not be stunned for 8 sec in the row? (FPS is not MMORPG;))

Pretty sure max stun duration in wow is 7seconds=4+2+1. That's with 3 stuns compared to 8 seconds in this game with 2 stuns. This game also has way more stuns then wow so stunlockig is much more prevalent and doesn't require a rogue.

[Relj]

Taking the above breakdown shows how resolve is broken. If you have 900 resolve and get hit with an 8 second stun by the above calculations you get a bonus stun immunity time, ~14 seconds. However resolve starts to drain immediately at 100/second. Thus you get only 6 seconds of useful immunity since you are stunned for 8 seconds. That is a broken mechanic.

 

Also, a root is as effective as a mez/stun on a melee class. So root should effect the resolve bar, at least for melee classes.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Relj
extra note

[xChroniCx]

1 min cooldown on the CC break, and change the current talents in certain classes that shorten it to something more useful.

 

Qft. Never understood why every cc is on a 1 min or less cool down but your only cc breaker is on a 2 min cd. Doesnt make sense.

[Kaarsa]

Pretty sure max stun duration in wow is 7seconds=4+2+1. That's with 3 stuns compared to 8 seconds in this game with 2 stuns. This game also has way more stuns then wow so stunlockig is much more prevalent and doesn't require a rogue.

 

I am pretty sure that some stuns in WOW (like kidney shot) last 6 seconds. Additionaly, in WoW (as obove posters said already) you can be CCed out of fight for 30+ seconds. To add insult to injury in SW TOR you need 2 chars to stun you for 8 sec, while in WoW rogue alone can do it for around 10 or more.

 

Anyway, with exception of daydreamers everyone knows that WoW CC system is where real stunlocks and CClocks are, so please, some real example of game where you cannot be stunned for 8 sec please.

[Kaarsa]

Taking the above breakdown shows how resolve is broken. If you have 900 resolve and get hit with an 8 second stun by the above calculations you get a bonus stun immunity time, ~14 seconds. However resolve starts to drain immediately at 100/second. Thus you get only 6 seconds of useful immunity since you are stunned for 8 seconds. That is a broken mechanic.

 

Also, a root is as effective as a mez/stun on a melee class. So root should effect the resolve bar, at least for melee classes.

 

I suggest you to work on your math skills and ability to differ between stun and mez.

 

900 resolve, being hit by 8 sec mez (there are no 8 sec stuns here) is +1200 resolve points, so you will have 2100 resolve, 21 sec of immunity. I fyou wont break mez (or it wont be broken by dmg) you will enjoy 13 seconds of CC immunity.

[Relj]

I suggest you to work on your math skills and ability to differ between stun and mez.

 

900 resolve, being hit by 8 sec mez (there are no 8 sec stuns here) is +1200 resolve points, so you will have 2100 resolve, 21 sec of immunity. I fyou wont break mez (or it wont be broken by dmg) you will enjoy 13 seconds of CC immunity.

 

My math may be off but you just confirmed my point. Resolve is broken as long as it drops when your are stunned. It should be the full 21 seconds AFTER the stun wears off.

[Darth_Philar]

My math may be off but you just confirmed my point. Resolve is broken as long as it drops when your are stunned. It should be the full 21 seconds AFTER the stun wears off.

 

The immediate dropping rewards people who saved their CC Breaker for Immunity Time.

 

This is why I do suggest they change the CC Breaker so that it refreshes on death.

[Kaarsa]

My math may be off but you just confirmed my point. Resolve is broken as long as it drops when your are stunned. It should be the full 21 seconds AFTER the stun wears off.

 

Why? Resolve working as it is now differ between being hit by different CCs at different resolve values and encourages wise usage of CC breaker. Mez is less penalizing (usually) than stun, so you have shorter CC immunity after being mezzed than after being stunned.

 

BTW your statement should be "resolve is not working as I wish it to as long it drops when your are stunned". Fact you dont like it does not make it broken (especially that you didnt know how it works before you expressed your opinion about it).

[Relj]

The immediate dropping rewards people who saved their CC Breaker for Immunity Time.

 

This is why I do suggest they change the CC Breaker so that it refreshes on death.

 

Smart use of the cc breaker is definetly abig factor. However considering the 2 m cooldown on it and the sheer number of stuns available, your cc will not always be available even if used properly. Thus saving your cc is not the end all answer.

I would like it to reset on death or reduced to 1m.

[Relj]

Why? Resolve working as it is now differ between being hit by different CCs at different resolve values and encourages wise usage of CC breaker. Mez is less penalizing (usually) than stun, so you have shorter CC immunity after being mezzed than after being stunned.

 

BTW your statement should be "resolve is not working as I wish it to as long it drops when your are stunned". Fact you dont like it does not make it broken (especially that you didnt know how it works before you expressed your opinion about it).

 

'working as intended' does not mean something is not broken. It just means someone is too stubborn to admit that it needs fixing.

[Darth_Philar]

Smart use of the cc breaker is definetly abig factor. However considering the 2 m cooldown on it and the sheer number of stuns available, your cc will not always be available even if used properly. Thus saving your cc is not the end all answer.

I would like it to reset on death or reduced to 1m.

 

I prefer the reset on death option as that allows you to level the playing field each time you die. I'm fine with the 2 min CD for those who survived the fight as they shouldn't have an advantage against fresh reinforcements

[customkb]

Stunned once, sit in it for four seconds (big deal), stunned again, use CC break (problem solved).

 

CC break on Cool Down?

 

Still only 8 seconds (MAX) of time where you could be CCed and not able to control your character/CC not breaking on damage.

 

Those times where you get CCed from full HP to zero HP are the intelligent players who know how to pace out their CCs to not fill up the resolve bar in the first 4 secs of the fight. This same idea of spreading out/changing up your CC worked just as well in WoW's DR system and allowed people to be CCed from full HP to zero HP. Also, DR system is not the ONLY way of solving chain CC. Is it a decent system? Yes. Is Resolve a decent system as well? Yes.

 

In summary, getting CCed to death only happens when people play intelligently or you have 3 people all attacking you. Either scenario equals you just getting owned.

[madtycoon]

I prefer the reset on death option as that allows you to level the playing field each time you die. I'm fine with the 2 min CD for those who survived the fight as they shouldn't have an advantage against fresh reinforcements

 

They shouldn't reward death in warzones with a break reset. Its already almost better to die a lot of the times on like voidstar, civil war and huttball and death should have a bigger penalty, not a reward. A 1 minute cooldown on your break would be stupid too, especially in group pvp. There are a lot of stuns sure, but you can't have everyone mindlessly breaking out of every cc and reward them even more with a lower cooldown.