ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Why is there such a huge stat allocation difference between two same item level gear sets? I added all the stats from just only the 5 main pieces: gloves, head, chest, boots, and pants from the marauder sets and there is a 279 point difference. If you included the stats from every single item slot, the difference between the stat points are immense. As a pvper with full War Hero gear, you can do both PvP and PvE comfortably considering that both gear sets will be hitting soft caps anyways making the gains from the PvE set even less noticeable. However if you were to wear campaign gear to warzones, you'll get absolutely wrecked due to how much a difference expertise makes. How is this even considered balance? Marauder 5 piece set War Hero Gear = 2106 Stat Points Strength = 461 (-141) Endurance = 537 (-108) Expertise = 550 (+550) Power = 61 (-2) Critical Rating = 232 (0) Accuracy = 106 (+49) Surge = 159 (-69) Campaign Gear = 1827 Stat Points Strength = 602 (+141) Endurance = 645 (+108) Expertise = 0 (-550) Power = 63 (+2) Critical Rating = 232 (0) Accuracy = 57 (-49) Surge = 228 (+69) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VicSkimmr Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) To keep the PVE gear from owning in warzones. PVP gear is heavily expertise dependent. They aren't intended to mix, PVE gear shouldn't be good for PVP and PVP gear shouldn't be good at PVE. It's that whole, you earn rewards for the style of play you prefer type thing. The war hero gear might be decent for T1 raids or HM flashpoints, but you sure as hell shouldn't show up to Explosive Conflict in it. Edited May 1, 2012 by VicSkimmr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaril Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 To keep the PVE gear from owning in warzones. PVP gear is heavily expertise dependent. They aren't intended to mix, PVE gear shouldn't be good for PVP and PVP gear shouldn't be good at PVE. It's that whole, you earn rewards for the style of play you prefer type thing. You keep seeing people say that, but I don't believe it for a second. If the highest sets were similar in terms of stats, and expertise were not a factor, the PVE dude would get absolutely crushed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 To keep the PVE gear from owning in warzones. PVP gear is heavily expertise dependent. They aren't intended to mix, PVE gear shouldn't be good for PVP and PVP gear shouldn't be good at PVE. It's that whole, you earn rewards for the style of play you prefer type thing. The war hero gear might be decent for T1 raids or HM flashpoints, but you sure as hell shouldn't show up to Explosive Conflict in it. That's the thing though, you can do 16 HM operations with War Hero gear, very easily if you know how to do the fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lugosi Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 You keep seeing people say that, but I don't believe it for a second. If the highest sets were similar in terms of stats, and expertise were not a factor, the PVE dude would get absolutely crushed. If the stats are the same and expertise is not accounted for how is this so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viliphied Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 That's the thing though, you can do 16 HM operations with War Hero gear, very easily if you know how to do the fights. So you'd say it's on par with what, as far as PvE goes? Columi? As far as PvE stats go, it's basically Columi with extra endurance. Not as good for pure pve as Rakata even, so it's more than a full tier worse for PvE. Why are you complaining again? (also, it's much harder/more time consuming to get War Hero gear than it is to get Columi) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) So you'd say it's on par with what, as far as PvE goes? Columi? As far as PvE stats go, it's basically Columi with extra endurance. Not as good for pure pve as Rakata even, so it's more than a full tier worse for PvE. Why are you complaining again? (also, it's much harder/more time consuming to get War Hero gear than it is to get Columi) Where did I say it was on par with Columi? Do you even know what the sets look like? It has more PvE stats than Columi. It's even better than Rakata PvE wise given that Rakata is itemized horribly with tons of Accuracy. Edited May 1, 2012 by ElintSlave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viliphied Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Where did I say it was on par with Columi? It's better than Rakata PvE wise given that Rakata is itemized horribly with tons of Accuracy. You HAVE seen the BM/WH itemization, right? It's also stacked with accuracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 You HAVE seen the BM/WH itemization, right? It's also stacked with accuracy. I'm not talking about Battlemaster gear. I'm talking about War Hero gear. War Hero gear has way less accuracy then the previous sets anyways so it's an improvement. It still doesn't change the fact that War Hero gear has more stats then Campaign. If you took those missing stats and put them into PvE stats, people would still get wrecked if they used it in warzones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nezitx Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 You are making the erroneous assumption that 1 stat of X = 1 stat of Y. Sorry, but it just isn't true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) You are making the erroneous assumption that 1 stat of X = 1 stat of Y. Sorry, but it just isn't true. So expertise is worth less on the item stat budget even though it's the most overpowered stat in PvP? It does more in one stat then any of the other stats in PvE. It increases damage, mitigation and healing. Edited May 1, 2012 by ElintSlave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viliphied Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 So expertise is worth less on the item stat budget even though it's the most overpowered stat in PvP? It does more in one stat then any of the other stats in PvE. It increases damage, mitigation and healing. The way it should be. Going in to PvP without expertise should (with recruit gear available) basically make it impossible to win. All of a sudden, if you want to pvp, you *gasp* need pvp gear. If you want to raid the previous tier in PvP gear, please feel free, but you're not going to be getting Campaign gear with a full raid in War Hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 The way it should be. Going in to PvP without expertise should (with recruit gear available) basically make it impossible to win. All of a sudden, if you want to pvp, you *gasp* need pvp gear. If you want to raid the previous tier in PvP gear, please feel free, but you're not going to be getting Campaign gear with a full raid in War Hero. Are you stupid? You can do 16 man hard Denova with War Hero gear. It's as simple as that. You can do it in Battlemaster gear. The only difference between Battlemaster gear and Rakata gear is the armoring. The mods and the enhancements are the exact same with expertise added on top of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HooDooMagic Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 So you'd say it's on par with what, as far as PvE goes? Columi? As far as PvE stats go, it's basically Columi with extra endurance. Not as good for pure pve as Rakata even, so it's more than a full tier worse for PvE. Why are you complaining again? (also, it's much harder/more time consuming to get War Hero gear than it is to get Columi) You might want to check the numbers first, augmented War Hero gear has superior stats to Rakata in every category as well as far superior secondary stat distribution. Since I do a lot of pvp and pve I've been using my black hole comms to purchase the ear piece and implants first while swapping out my Rakata for augmented WH gear. Now having said that, Campaign is much better than WH for PvE because of the significant increase in primary stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revelationjp Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 So expertise is worth less on the item stat budget even though it's the most overpowered stat in PvP? It does more in one stat then any of the other stats in PvE. It increases damage, mitigation and healing. Expertise has no value at all in PVE. If you take that out of your equation, assuming your numbers are correct, (I'm not bothering to verify them right now), the WM set is actually weaker than the campaign, thus the exact opposite of your point is the result we would draw from your data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 Expertise has no value at all in PVE. If you take that out of your equation, assuming your numbers are correct, (I'm not bothering to verify them right now), the WM set is actually weaker than the campaign, thus the exact opposite of your point is the result we would draw from your data. That is true when you factor out the expertise, however the stats you gain from PvE are so small that it doesn't even matter that much when you're doing 16 man hardmodes. However the opposite does not hold true for PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viliphied Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Are you stupid? You can do 16 man hard Denova with War Hero gear. It's as simple as that. You can do it in Battlemaster gear. The only difference between Battlemaster gear and Rakata gear is the armoring. The mods and the enhancements are the exact same with expertise added on top of it. You'd almost certainly have a hard time with it if your full raid was in WH (nevermind that WH would take much longer for 16 ppl to get for PvE than Rakata, if they're good enough raiders to be doing HM Denova undergeared). You say the only difference is the armoring like it doesn't matter. It's actually a pretty significant difference, similar to, say, the difference between Columi and Rakata. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kirorx Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 You keep seeing people say that, but I don't believe it for a second. If the highest sets were similar in terms of stats, and expertise were not a factor, the PVE dude would get absolutely crushed. I agree with you but am afraid the massiveamount of WoW heads cant seem to see past they way they did things back there. Dont mean that as an insult to those players or anything, i think that is just the playstyle and view they have grown accustomed to. I had played SWG for the past 8 years and there was no expertise and yet there was plenty of incentive to pvp that was not a gear grind. Gear should not cater to one side or the other because people should want to do both, but Need to do neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) You are making the erroneous assumption that 1 stat of X = 1 stat of Y. Sorry, but it just isn't true. I'm going to quote you again. After looking at the data base of items and mods, there does not seem to be a different value given to each of their stats. Their numbers absolutely do not make sense and if they do have a value to stats they aren't following their own rules. However this really doesn't surprise me, given when the game first came out Rakata weapons were worse than Tionese. Edited May 1, 2012 by ElintSlave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElintSlave Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 You'd almost certainly have a hard time with it if your full raid was in WH (nevermind that WH would take much longer for 16 ppl to get for PvE than Rakata, if they're good enough raiders to be doing HM Denova undergeared). You say the only difference is the armoring like it doesn't matter. It's actually a pretty significant difference, similar to, say, the difference between Columi and Rakata. Why does that even matter? They are the same gear of different aspects of the game. One set should not be better than the other. BTW it would take 8 weeks for everyone in the raid to be fully geared in campaign gear if you were able to clear everything from day one. Also I am absolutely positive it wouldn't be even noticeable if our raid were to raid in full War Hero gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gungan Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 To keep the PVE gear from owning in warzones. PVP gear is heavily expertise dependent. They aren't intended to mix, PVE gear shouldn't be good for PVP and PVP gear shouldn't be good at PVE. It's that whole, you earn rewards for the style of play you prefer type thing. The war hero gear might be decent for T1 raids or HM flashpoints, but you sure as hell shouldn't show up to Explosive Conflict in it. The OP's point is that you can do PVE in War Hero, yes every operation except the newest hard mode, but you'd get totally blown out of the water taking PVE gear to PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SentinelDranoel Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) The OP's point is that you can do PVE in War Hero, yes every operation except the newest hard mode, but you'd get totally blown out of the water taking PVE gear to PVP. At the same time, the real question is if the player wants a toon that can do both pve and pvp, or one of each. As a player that only competes in endgame pvp, I have a subjective opinion. If you really want to win at pvp, then you are probably playing a lot of pvp. As for operations, there is no operations stat that can increase your chance to suceed. That takes more group coooperation and knowledge of the operation then success based soley on your gear. Comparing PVP gear to PVE gear sounds like a kind apples and oranges type of logic. This is why no one is coming to a conclusion on how to fix this. And no pvp grouping is not compared to operations grouping because pvp teams are not 8 man premade teams with voice chat between all the players. It can be 8 random people facing against 8 random people. Edited May 1, 2012 by SentinelDranoel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chesty_Jake Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) I think the natural fix could be for PVP expertise to have the opposite effect in PVE... however this wouldn't make sense on PVP servers so that's out the window. But at the sametime PVE gear shares a natural progression with the game, PVP has no progression outside it's specified Gear & Valor level... so it's only natural they get their own goodies. And yes they can then use this gear in OPS but so what? They put just as much time in getting the gear if not more in PVP than you did to get your PVE gear. I know I have both. You essentially have 2 roads to go down to get X gear and play the game. Don't hate on either one IMO.... Edited May 1, 2012 by Chesty_Jake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totaltrash Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Whatever happened to the good old days when people would do both, PVP and PVE, in MMO's? And we didn't have to have different kind of gear just to cater to the crybabies.... Anyway, as a DPS I don't think it matters that much if you use WH or Campaign gear in a raid. Of course, if you are tank (or maybe a healer) that's a much different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yukirshiro Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 WH is fine for PVE only because PVE is so godawful easy in this game. It's not a problem with stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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