Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[vimm]

You sir, win a cookie. Not only does expertise provide a fairly level playing feild, it also allows the devs to reduce and increase damage and mitigation by modifying the stat.

 

What's the big issue anyways? Are people honestly all up about not being able to wear Columni/Rakata gear? Is that it? If you want the nice gear for PvP then PvP! A fresh 50 should be starting with 2 pieces of BM and a full recruit set, which gives a pretty nice amount of expertise to compete.

 

I don't understand what the issue is either. I use a mix of Rakata/BM gear, with BM mods in it, just to get the 2-piece bonus from each set. Oh, and I look stunning!

[Bazzoong]

Most people don`t get it the only thing that keeps you from being steamrolled is expertise, the only thing that makes sure that anyone but hardcore raiders has any chance in pvp is expertise, the only thing that makes it possible to beat shadow/ sin tanks at all is expertise.

 

Don`t be greedy buy the recruit set. Ditch the champ and cent stuff you still have, get expertise it will make your "skills" matter.

 

The only thing that is wrong with expertise is that there is still not enough on the pvp items, up expertise another 200 points on each set, make recruit gear have exactly the same amount of expertise as BM gear it has lesser stats so why multiply that with expertise, that is not needed.

[dronepilot]

Seems to me, people really don't understand why PVP gear and PVE gear should be, and remain separate entities. You want to go and raid, you do that, but you walk into a war zone in PVE gear, against people who have worked hard for their PVP gear, with the Expertise, that is for use and effective 'only' in PVP mode of play, then expect to be gimped. Build a PVP set, and play. I got a PVE set, and a PVP gear set, I really don't see what's so difficult about this ?

 

The difference with Battlemaster geared players playing PVE content, and getting through it, is not that huge a deal either, I have used my stalker gear in PVE mode after 1.2, and do not believe that I have any huge advantage over some one who has proper PVE gear, I swear, people who think that we can just walk through PVE content like that, really need to try both PVP and PVE sets out for themselves, because there is no huge advantage there or anything close.

 

If they were to remove Expertise though tomorrow this wouldn't be too bad, so long as there is some thing equal to it, that can give some kind of PVP buff to all players when they enter a battle zone in PVP mode.

[MandoArc]

All i have to say 10 to 49 best damn game pvp wise out there balances wise everything is so damn perfect 10 to 49 is what this game need to be like the damn game is so balances no pvp stats and is fun like hell so fun allot of as re make alts so we can play on the 10to49 tier again so why dont bio-lazy-ware use there heads here and ask them self why is it more fun and they will see the it is more fun and more active cuz YOU DONT NEED PVP GEAR TO HAVE A DAMN BLAST wish keep it open for even thos pve'rs to quoe wish is good

 

I dont know about Any of you guys put it dont take 200million to see why pvp at level 50 is slower and not fun

 

Is not the gear it self is the stats on 10 to 49 you get a nices set of pvp gear at level 40 you can Mod and is nices it boost up your stats put is not a you need set if you want you dont have to get it and go get a set of pve and still be good this is what make 10 to 49 so damn good and balances expertise need to go EXPERTISE NEED TO GO make the damn game fun and balances again and theres nothing more fun and balances on this game then 10 to 49

[Doomsdaycomes]

Expertise makes it possible for the developers to make changes to PvP without throwing off the balance of PvE.

 

You have a good point here, but the solution doesn't need to be expertise on the gear. A PvP buff upon enterin PvP could grant all players +X expertise, and still be able to balance pvp aside form pve.

 

The complaint then becomes "Raiders can gear up in pve faster, and then own warzones." Once more, then either increase the time to gear up pve (Lower drop rates, or token/comm based pve progression), or decrease the time pvp. Essential, Equalize it.

 

If neither options are available, then my question is (with expertise being the only a tool to balance pvp aside from pve) why isn't the expertise the same for all 3 sets of pvp gear?

 

Seems to me, people really don't understand why PVP gear and PVE gear should be, and remain separate entities. You want to go and raid, you do that, but you walk into a war zone in PVE gear, against people who have worked hard for their PVP gear, with the Expertise, that is for use and effective 'only' in PVP mode of play, then expect to be gimped. Build a PVP set, and play. I got a PVE set, and a PVP gear set, I really don't see what's so difficult about this ?

 

The difference with Battlemaster geared players playing PVE content, and getting through it, is not that huge a deal either, I have used my stalker gear in PVE mode after 1.2, and do not believe that I have any huge advantage over some one who has proper PVE gear, I swear, people who think that we can just walk through PVE content like that, really need to try both PVP and PVE sets out for themselves, because there is no huge advantage there or anything close.

 

Not meaning to pick on you, but if I read the post correctly, you should expect to be gimped in PvP if you use PvE gear, but then you go on to say that Using PvP gear in PvE, you don't feel as if you have an advantage. You shouldn't then, you should feel gimped in PVE content.

 

PvE gear in PvP = Gimped.

but PvP gear in PVE = No Advantage, but about equal.

Should be (according to the seperate camps model) PvP gear in PvE = Gimped.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Doomsdaycomes

[Sir_LogiC]

I can see where the OP is coming from. As some background in World of Warcraft, before resilience, people complained that you had to raid to get the best PvP gear (and seeing a warrior in AQ gear with a couple healbot raid buddies was a frightening sight). Blizzard probably felt that you should not get on par gear from PvP, since raiding was "harder", and they were still stuck in the old school mindset then.

 

Resilience was added and this allowed them to put out "on par" gear for PvP players without upsetting PvE gearing too much. However resil was/is broken, since it only decreases damage taken. It broke healing in PvP because DPS went down as healing went up, to the point you get games where hardly anyone dies and healers are effectively immortal. It is also probably the reason why (particularly warlock and death knight) self healing was nerfed into the ground.

 

So right now in SW:ToR they made a safe MMO so of course it had to have a PvP stat, since "hardcore PvP'ers" expect it. They implemented it so that it gets past that problem in WoW, and also increases damage to other players so healing doesn't get massively imbalanced with gear level (aka tier) increases.

 

Now back to OP's thought experiment. MMO's have come far since resil in WoW was first implemented, there is no real discrepancy between PvE being "better" than PvP. Also since gear is so easy to get now why can't they just ditch a PvP only stat. Hell roll your face on the keyboard and you get some loots. Since there really is no need for a pure PvP stat it doesn't really need to be in. Plus without it game balance becomes so much easier, damage reduction can be altered through armour and by changing buffs so easily, rather than having to balance and adjust things constantly with every new tier of PvP gear. Proof? Look at WoW, almost every patch that released a new PvP set they have fiddled with healing, self healing and mortal strike (healing taken debuff) effects to try to rebalance things.

[Lord_Karsk]

Completely agree Expertise is NOT needed at all to provide a good PVP experience.

 

The OPs suggestions to rebalance the gear to provide both PVE and PVP players equal level of stats is the best way forward. We are only a few months into the game and the gap between gear has increased significantly.

 

This was an issue in Wow as it was introduced so late in the game development that this stat was needed to rebalance the game, but even there it caused some big issues. Here we have a new game that could have been designed with PVP in mind from the start - not using a special stat to try to provide balance.

 

What does Expertise result in:

- Players not having fun in warzones

- Players being forced to spend more and more time in PVP simply to get to a competative level. This is an MMORPG after all??

- Player segregation PVE vs PVP camps

- Less people queuing for warzones in the long term.

- The need for two individual sets of gear and having to change this each time you enter warzones.

- Players with no skills, simply owning everyone else coming up under them.

- A game that has nothing to do with player skills only what gear they have grind.

- A game where your gear determines the winning team.

- Massive amounts of players leaving warzones in progress due to their disatisfaction.

- Faction who gets ahead of the other will always have a clear advantage and sped up progression where as the loosing faction will need to work harder. This will get worse over time.

 

Game needs to cater for those who primarily PVP and those that primarily PVE. Gear progression is needed in the game but the balance needs to be there to allow PVE to compete in PVP and likewise for PVP to compete in PVE content. Game still needs progression paths for both but does not need Expertise to distinguish and segregate. This way you can still solely PVP and get good gear and not worry about coming across a high end PVE as you can get the same.

 

Those that PVP as their mainstay in this game should have advantages over PVE, but this advantage should be down to their knowledge and experience in the warzones and how to play their character, not simply because they have spend xx hrs and got their War Hero gear.

 

To all those comments that say, nut up or shut up, this is the way it works so join the club, or you just don't understand how it works, must be a noob .. well I think we do understand .. we simply don't accept this is the best system we could have. It has its flaws and needs improvement before everyone stops queuing. There is a reason why there has been so many threads on this topic .. as it is a primary concern that is yet to be addressed.

 

Prior to hitting L50 myself, I was almost always queued for a match, but now even with my Expertise gear the level differences between players at L50 is far too large and find swinging my lightsabres at a player for several mins without denting their health by any decent mark is futile. Its not that I dont know how to play, or know the strengths of my character, I simply am outgunned. Likewise vs a healer, they can outheal any damage I throw at them and cannot be intruppted or stunned for long enough to break them down.

 

The other player has got to be sitting back laughing at my attempts as they clock their 50+ kills... I still question how much fun it can be for them to steam roll the opposing force without competition... surely they would also like a good competitive and engaging game right??

 

 

Very true, sadly the developers cant think 30 meters ahead.

Said this so many times before, if you make it take about as long to get pve/pvp gear what ever tier

then you have no problem.If one have to grind raiding and pvp for two weeks were time spendt is about the

same then you would not have any of this issue with the fail stat expertise messing up warzones.

And only difference should be cosmetic to show what you have worked hard for.But as a said when people

cant think ahead and understand what works and what does not work.There is only a tiny % of former wow players

also known as gaming newbies who support two gear grinds.But bioware wanted to copy every fail game system from wow.....

Edited April 30, 2012 by Lord_Karsk

[kenbenobi]

I agree. Less and less pvp players every day. Today was all time low.

 

What is the fun of expertise geared premade vs. randoms with lot less expertise? It is not fun. Facefoll for victory but no challenge. Losing team players it is not fun and pretty much 0 tokens for gear. No wonder people are leaving or just doing pve. Geargap is just too huge.

Edited April 30, 2012 by kenbenobi

[dronepilot]

Not meaning to pick on you, but if I read the post correctly, you should expect to be gimped in PvP if you use PvE gear, but then you go on to say that Using PvP gear in PvE, you don't feel as if you have an advantage. You shouldn't then, you should feel gimped in PVE content.

 

PvE gear in PvP = Gimped.

but PvP gear in PVE = No Advantage, but about equal.

Should be (according to the seperate camps model) PvP gear in PvE = Gimped.

 

Yes, basically I don't feel there is any advantage there in PVE mode, wearing PVP gear. I do expect to be gimped, because I am wearing PVP gear, Hope this makes better sense

 

However, I also mentioned I don't think it would be too bad, if expertise was removed, but replaced with some thing that allows everyone who entered a PVP war zone, a PVP bonus for all players. I think Bioware in some bizarre way have attempted this with recruit gear, though already.

[MandoArc]

it can be done is oready in game level 10 to 49 best pvp on this game and NO EXPERTISE

[Bazzoong]

All i have to say 10 to 49 best damn game pvp wise out there balances wise everything is so damn perfect 10 to 49 is what this game need to be like the damn game is so balances no pvp stats and is fun like hell so fun allot of as re make alts so we can play on the 10to49 tier again so why dont bio-lazy-ware use there heads here and ask them self why is it more fun and they will see the it is more fun and more active cuz YOU DONT NEED PVP GEAR TO HAVE A DAMN BLAST wish keep it open for even thos pve'rs to quoe wish is good

 

I dont know about Any of you guys put it dont take 200million to see why pvp at level 50 is slower and not fun

 

Is not the gear it self is the stats on 10 to 49 you get a nices set of pvp gear at level 40 you can Mod and is nices it boost up your stats put is not a you need set if you want you dont have to get it and go get a set of pve and still be good this is what make 10 to 49 so damn good and balances expertise need to go EXPERTISE NEED TO GO make the damn game fun and balances again and theres nothing more fun and balances on this game then 10 to 49

 

Sorry, you have no clue 10-49 is way more gear heavy then lvl50 pvp, this is due to how the bolster mechanic works, purple gear impacts the game much more than it should and classes getting their pvp core abilities at different lvls screws the whole notion of skill in <50 pvp, being able to get expertise a lvl40 increases that imbalance further. <50 pvp is joke if it comes to balance.

 

All I see is someone facerolling for the last 12 or so lvls 10-49 and then meeting people who actually know what they are doing at 50.

[Rippeh]

Resilience was actually put into the game because of PVE concerns. PVPers were whining that raid geared players were entering warzones and crushing everyone under the weight of their epics. So PVP gear was introduced that had just straight up stats. It was the best in the game. You could grind that **** out solo if you had enough basement time and mountain dew. PVE min-max OCDers then complained that PVP high warlords were going into raids and kicking their asses on the DPS meters. So they added resilience, a way to make PVP gear good for PVP, yet terrible for PVE. In the end the best gear for pvp was a mix of the two anyway.

 

I agree that expertise is terrible, but the bottom line is not expertise, it's the gear gap. Even if you remove expertise there will still be unkillable terminators in pvp. That's the nature of the game. They should just make a bolstered bg option for 50s that gives only moderate cash rewards. I'd play the **** out of that.

[MandoArc]

Sorry, you have no clue 10-49 is way more gear heavy then lvl50 pvp, this is due to how the bolster mechanic works, purple gear impacts the game much more than it should and classes getting their pvp core abilities at different lvls screws the whole notion of skill in <50 pvp, being able to get expertise a lvl40 increases that imbalance further. <50 pvp is joke if it comes to balance.

 

All I see is someone facerolling for the last 12 or so lvls 10-49 and then meeting people who actually know what they are doing at 50.

 

SORRY YOU THE ONE WHO IS LOST at 10/49 a level 30 on blues can take on a level 30 on blues a level 40 on epics can take on a level 40 on epics a level 20 on blues can fight a level 30 on blues and win only problem whit 10 to 49 is not gear is no tiers is 10 to 49 all of them together

 

NOW put some brackets and we be good i will even say open Warzone's to level 1

So

1-15 bracket 1

15-30 bracket 2

30-45 bracket 3

45-50 last bracket i know some of you will say what level 45 fighting level 50 all i have to say is this at level 45 you can buy the recruit gear NO expertise Only Armor stats thes all for thos who dont Run Any Op then can go and buy a set of armor the will help them and sens theres no expertise You wont be steam roll as hard you will still get steam roll put it wont be like you see it now at level 50 a fresh 50 get destroy whit this new system you can do something I mean YOU BIOWARE something like Boost thos level 45 players to level 50

and if you want to put a pvp buff on Warzones something like 20% lest player damage go for it put only went you in a warzone

 

sorry for my spelling guys

[Feyak]

Greetings,

 

I've read almost every post here, but one thing I've noticed is that no one has made the differentiation of what Expertise does. I think that the Pro-Expertise camp has purposefully ignored it, and I think the anti-Expertise camp didn't notice this or didn't care cause they don't want the stat any more.

 

There are two different things that you can do to resolve this "issue":

 

First Option:

Take the Second part of the stat off.

Expertise will Decrease Damage Taken by x%

Expertise will increase Damage Done by x%

 

This (Dmg Boost) is the unbalanced part of the stat, for one it increases your damage done to other players by a much higher percentage then it reduces damage. So when you pit two people with 1000 expertise against each other you are in for a good fight. But if you were to pit that 1000 expertise player against 4 people that have 0 expertise, you just steamrolled through half their team.

 

Take that part of the stat away, you now have someone who can survive against 4 other players, but can't "steamroll" them. Here's part two of the equation, you should be able to reduce the amount of damage reduction at this point (because we aren't increasing the flat damage to players through expertise) from 15-20 percent to 10-15 percent(could even take it lower if needed), so that 1 person would still be able to hold/defend a point against 3 players until his team arrives. To take it to hutt ball, it also means a team could still take down a ball carrier if they don't have the same/more expertise, and not see one person with the ball walk through the entire map with the ball. you should be passing, you should be strategic.

 

Option 2:

 

I don't like this one as much, because then it adds a tier of I've done what I can, now I play for nothing other then to kill my fellow players.

 

Set an Expertise cap, where it will give you a benefit against other players who don't have any expertise, but it makes it competitive, in no case should 1 person ever be able to take on half a team and last 5 minutes. It should be at most 60 seconds, which is still an enormous time to last against HALF the enemy team.

 

I'm sure I might get burned for saying all this, but there is a third camp. PVP Deserves an edge, but not a bull dozer. PVE Deserves an edge against PVP Gear in PVE Content, and that is generally through reducing alt stats on PVP Gear. but it's up to the Devs in the end. So I'm going to go put on my flame retardant armor and hope it lasts.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Yes, basically I don't feel there is any advantage there in PVE mode, wearing PVP gear. I do expect to be gimped, because I am wearing PVP gear, Hope this makes better sense

 

However, I also mentioned I don't think it would be too bad, if expertise was removed, but replaced with some thing that allows everyone who entered a PVP war zone, a PVP bonus for all players. I think Bioware in some bizarre way have attempted this with recruit gear, though already.

 

Alright, just checking I heard you correctly.

 

<----------------------------^----------------------------->

 

About the general idea of making a buff/removing expertise etc...

 

Below I'll provide 3 links, one to my own thread discussing a loose model (and some bickering) for PvP/PvE Interchangeable content as compiled from several posts I've seen before. The other two are information gathering surveys to create a more indepth "model" using soft statistics (Hard metrics would be way better, but aren't something I have the tools to achieve.)

 

A Suggestion for End-Game Progression

 

PvE End-game Run Times

PvP Win Rates and Run Times

[Wesgile]

First Option:

Take the Second part of the stat off.

Expertise will Decrease Damage Taken by x%

Expertise will increase Damage Done by x%

 

This (Dmg Boost) is the unbalanced part of the stat, for one it increases your damage done to other players by a much higher percentage then it reduces damage. So when you pit two people with 1000 expertise against each other you are in for a good fight. But if you were to pit that 1000 expertise player against 4 people that have 0 expertise, you just steamrolled through half their team.

wrong. reason? math.

 

Take that part of the stat away, you now have someone who can survive against 4 other players, but can't "steamroll" them. Here's part two of the equation, you should be able to reduce the amount of damage reduction at this point (because we aren't increasing the flat damage to players through expertise) from 15-20 percent to 10-15 percent(could even take it lower if needed), so that 1 person would still be able to hold/defend a point against 3 players until his team arrives. To take it to hutt ball, it also means a team could still take down a ball carrier if they don't have the same/more expertise, and not see one person with the ball walk through the entire map with the ball. you should be passing, you should be strategic.

 

Option 2:

 

I don't like this one as much, because then it adds a tier of I've done what I can, now I play for nothing other then to kill my fellow players.

 

Set an Expertise cap, where it will give you a benefit against other players who don't have any expertise, but it makes it competitive, in no case should 1 person ever be able to take on half a team and last 5 minutes. It should be at most 60 seconds, which is still an enormous time to last against HALF the enemy team.

 

I'm sure I might get burned for saying all this, but there is a third camp. PVP Deserves an edge, but not a bull dozer. PVE Deserves an edge against PVP Gear in PVE Content, and that is generally through reducing alt stats on PVP Gear. but it's up to the Devs in the end. So I'm going to go put on my flame retardant armor and hope it lasts.

steamroll? bulldozer?

pvp gear has like what? 400+ mainstat and endurance LESS than equal tiered pve gear already, they were straight out GIMPED in pve content. on the other hand, even if battlemasters were to deal 20% more damage to you, you had 20k+ hp life anyway, compared to them with 16k-something. their damage reduction is like what, 17%? so you when you normally deal 2k damage, it becomes 1.66k damage, still about the same comparison to your health pools. note that you already inherently deal more damage than them normally due to your much higher stat anyway.

 

edit:

Alright, just checking I heard you correctly.

 

<----------------------------^----------------------------->

 

About the general idea of making a buff/removing expertise etc...

 

Below I'll provide 3 links, one to my own thread discussing a loose model (and some bickering) for PvP/PvE Interchangeable content as compiled from several posts I've seen before. The other two are information gathering surveys to create a more indepth "model" using soft statistics (Hard metrics would be way better, but aren't something I have the tools to achieve.)

 

A Suggestion for End-Game Progression

 

PvE End-game Run Times

PvP Win Rates and Run Times

although i agree that one way to do it is to balance both ends equally. i dont think this is what generally most mmo publisher would want to, since people can basically just do one end and enjoy the benefits of both endgames (which means reduced playtime, as compared to having people run both pve and pvp for their respective endgames).

Edited April 30, 2012 by Wesgile

[Razot]

Baseline the stat between all tiers and move on already..

the stat has been more problems than its worth. Its difficult for somebody who is competent to balance things out, and the truth is we do not have that person working on TOR.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Razot

[Doomsdaycomes]

although i agree that one way to do it is to balance both ends equally. i dont think this is what generally most mmo publisher would want to, since people can basically just do one end and enjoy the benefits of both endgames (which means reduced playtime, as compared to having people run both pve and pvp for their respective endgames).

 

^_^ I agree with you on what the publishers want, but if they are looking for the good of the community, it would be to not divide us. The only suggestion I would make is perhaps to slow the gear progression of both down.

 

For example, Let's say PvE gearing takes 60 hours, and PvP takes 50 hours. That's a combined 110 Hours. They could balance the two, but make it 80hours total to gear either way. (So can split 80-0, 40-40, 60-20, etc...) Though they lost 30 hours in total for both sides, PvE and Pvp gearing both gained 20 and 30 hours respectively.

 

Just a thought. I come from a game where gearing took 400+ hours if you were lucky! (-.- evil game)

[Feyak]

wrong. reason? math.

 

 

Math for a basic equation

 

 

Roger will do

 

I have 983 Expertise I crank out a bonus 19.57% damage on players from all sources of damage, so I pull 5k DPS, I now pull 5978.5k DPS (avg) on this player. That's a whole Bonus of 1k dps. which will take a 20k Health player out in about 15 seconds.

By taking this out, I take him out or he takes me out in closer to 25 - 30 if he doesn't take me out before that

 

We take the other side of the coin, we also add in a damage flat damage reduction to my damage taken from other players. at 983 at a 16.53%

 

Against a non pvp geared player at baseline of 5k DPS it will reduce their DPS Down to 4173.5 dps. Taking effectively longer to get me dead. This is also going to be affected by dodge/parry/deflect, movements, armor, defensive cool downs, stuns and all that stuff that makes the game unpredictable, and w/o knowing SWTORs equations effectively impossible to equate exactly. (would also need their RNG system)

 

By leaving the Expertise as it is (no changes) it will make a difference of ~2k dps between my damage, and their damage. where as by taking the bonus damage out of the equation and leaving it as defensive only, you will reduce the "benefit" to only a 1k Spread.

 

This is a lot more beneficial where it will help you take them down by reducing the amount of damage you take. Not the amount of damage you deal(to other players)

 

 

On a different note, when I was a fresh 50 w/ only what I could afford 2-300 expertise, I would last only about 5-7 seconds against a toon in full Battle master gear. By leaving the system as is, you will find less and less people queuing for PVP.

 

This all gets me to the final point. in the near future TOR will be adding ranked matches, in which case that is where the elites will stand. Where you can legitimately ***** someone out for entering w/o having full Battle-master gear. But when it comes to casual players, you can't have such a difference with out driving customers from the game. which can and will happen if the course of gear is not changed. or if the system is not "re-vamped"

[Jedipwnsauce]

No. Stop PVEing. case closed.

[Antipodes]

Nothing wrong with having two progressions for different aspects of the game. Ideally, it would be nice if PvE gear was 80% as effective in PvP as PvP gear, and vice versa. None of that PvE gear is better offense and PvP gear is better defense, because that always fails to work out.

 

Only reason why no expertise works in the lower level bracket is no one stays at one level for very long while continually improving their gear.

[NuSeC]

Yeah, obviously I don't understand the game. Obviously. Just a noob in Columi. But wait, BM gear is viable through most of the HMs in the game, meaning it grants access to almost everything a PVE player actually works for. But let's flip that around and try to PVP in Columi gear. You might as well be wearing greens.

 

Why? Expertise. End of story.

 

Rather than having both sets of gear viable for either activity and slightly under-performing in the one it wasn't specifically meant for, we have a balance where one set of gear is viable for both and the other sucks if you're not in PVE. Seems like good design.

 

But by all means, assume I'm just a noob.

 

Yes you can PVE in Battlemaster and I have and yes it is harder to PVP in Columi... I have a full set of that as well.

 

Maybe I am a jerk but I worked hard to get full BM (it was tier 3 lets not forget). I was full BM prior to 1.2 and it was a long and hard grind but I did it and felt like I accomplished something. Now it is like you hit 50 and 5 days later you are wearing gear it took me months to acquire. No I do not feel bad for people grinding out PVP because I had to and I learned a lot from the grind... like.... HOW TO PVP in the first place. PVP and PVE are totally different strats and skill sets. Alot of people come from PVE and expect to PWNLOLFACE because they believe they are the R0xorz at PVE.... when they find out they cant they complain.

 

That part about letting you do HMs in BM and that PVE players "work for it?" How exactly did I get Full BM without actually working for it?... and it was far more of a grind getting BM then getting the Columi set that I have a s well... from doing casual HMs

 

I think the 50s that actually earned their tier 3 gear in PVP will not feel so bad for you.

That is the problem.

Work a little for your gear... You may L2P along the way.

[Feyak]

Nothing wrong with having two progressions for different aspects of the game. Ideally, it would be nice if PvE gear was 80% as effective in PvP as PvP gear, and vice versa. None of that PvE gear is better offense and PvP gear is better defense, because that always fails to work out.

 

Only reason why no expertise works in the lower level bracket is no one stays at one level for very long while continually improving their gear.

 

Actually it doesn't fail to work, Because Expertise works to reduce damage taken from other players. It holds no PvE merrit, and honestly (don't know if Tor runs gear the same that wow did) will take allocation points away from other more useful stats, so if I have more Expertise it will reduce the amount of endurance, or surge, or whatever other stats I want on this gear, because it's mitigating damage from other players. making it less viable for PVE on a grander scale while in turn making it extremely useful on an amazing level for PVP. in turn making there two paths to take, the PVP which grants decent Flashpoint gear, but in the end you will get higher numbers with PVE Gear for PVE content. or better boss survivability from tanks. or bigger heals. you name it the stats will follow.

 

And I don't know if you weren't aware, but wow has been doing this for a very long time and it's been working out for them. they still make tweaks and changes, but all in all, pvp isn't unbalanced to the point of ha, Kill you in 10 seconds

[Dharkeon]

While it does need some tweaking, I'd say to stick with Expertise.

I wouldn't mind see lower damage & more survival stats in PvP gear (Making it less usable in PvE and quite useful in PvP).

 

PvE players will do PvE Activities in a bigger scale, if they want to also compete in the top of the top tiers of PvP - they will have to PvP their way up.

PvP players will do PvP Activities in a bigger scale, if they want to also compete in the top of the top tiers of PvE - they will have to PvE their way up.

I, for one, do both - and proud to have two sets of gear, one that is optimal for each.

 

Anyone that is against Expertise most likely never experienced (sorry about the following) World of Warcraft's pre-Resilience times. Where PvE Heroes had superiority above simple mortals. I was a terrible casual back then.. regret deeply not having a full-PvE Mage back in those days.

[Feyak]

I wouldn't mind see lower damage & more survival stats in PvP gear (Making it less usable in PvE and quite useful in PvP).

 

I do like this. and wouldn't mind seeing it placed in, but I also think that it should be changed to better allow new PVP'ers to survive to at least keep the game to mechanics and away from a kill fest.