Dear Expertise, You Are Terrible

[Dekai]

When you give both sides equal gear you get into the territory of side A or side B being upset that the "other side" has percieved or real easier access to the same gear.

 

"Wah!! Why should soloqueue PVP guy be allowed to lose his way to the Facemelt Raygun!?!? no fair!!"

"Wah!! It takes 3977 hours of PVP to grind a Facemelt Raygun, and those PVEers only have to kill one boss (with a 0.2% droprate) to get one!!!"

 

Get it?

 

Get your logic out of here. There's no place for it in forums, let alone one pertaining to PvP! Such Blasphemy!

 

In case someone doesn't sense the heavy sarcasm, this person just very humorously stated how the game is designed. Bioware, intentionally is separating PvP and PvE. This was the design goal, expertise enforces making PvE gear Sub-optimal in PvP, and with PvP gear having it's Primary stats significantly reduced into Expertise, so sub-optimal in PvE.

 

And I certainly hope someone doesn't come back with "Ya, but my BM gear works fine for Ops!" Rakata, Battlemasters PvE twin, would be far superior.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Dekai

[Aussiedroid]

I support expertise because I all I do is PvP. It would be extremely unfair if HM raiders had the best gear while PvPers got the short end of the stick.

 

Yeah we don't want to make it unfair for PVP'ers and just change balance to favor PVE'ers .. that would only happen if they removed Expertise and did nothing else to rebalance.

 

I still think PVP should have an advantage if they have grinded the better gear, but this margin should be smaller so PVE players can still compete.

 

If they removed Expertise, and rebalanced the items you can get then concerns like this would be negated.

 

Both PVP and PVE would have gear progression but both could compete in either game arena to equal extent.

 

Different gear would still come from PVP, that may give equal level but different stat combos so would still have advantages to grind both paths if you wanted and not allow either to be used to fast track you to the top of the tree so to speak.

[Arkerus]

Yeah we don't want to make it unfair for PVP'ers and just change balance to favor PVE'ers .. that would only happen if they removed Expertise and did nothing else to rebalance.

 

I still think PVP should have an advantage if they have grinded the better gear, but this margin should be smaller so PVE players can still compete.

 

If they removed Expertise, and rebalanced the items you can get then concerns like this would be negated.

 

Both PVP and PVE would have gear progression but both could compete in either game arena to equal extent.

 

Different gear would still come from PVP, that may give equal level but different stat combos so would still have advantages to grind both paths if you wanted and not allow either to be used to fast track you to the top of the tree so to speak.

 

If you remove expertise then someone who grinds PvE can waltz right into PvP. Personally, I don't like that. Just like I can't walk right into PvE.

[Aussiedroid]

If you remove expertise then someone who grinds PvE can waltz right into PvP. Personally, I don't like that. Just like I can't walk right into PvE.

 

With current gear setup I would have to disagree.

 

You can simply buy the Recruit set and do Heroic FPs successfully .. so essentially just walk into PVE and start near the top. If you are skilled you could probabily do Storymode OPs in the same gear!

 

Right now, even in some Heroic FP gear on in a PVP match you are pretty much useless against anyone with PVP Expertise gear.

 

If PVE player does put in time in grinding for gear, it should be viable for both. Likewise, those that grind PVP gear should also have the ability to be viable for both. Neither character progress should have such a distinct advantage as PVP gear has right now. This bias needs to be removed and balanced back out so you as a PVPer are not screwed over yet also those that are mainly PVEers are not either.

[Arkerus]

With current gear setup I would have to disagree.

 

You can simply buy the Recruit set and do Heroic FPs successfully .. so essentially just walk into PVE and start near the top. If you are skilled you could probabily do Storymode OPs in the same gear!

 

Right now, even in some Heroic FP gear on in a PVP match you are pretty much useless against anyone with PVP Expertise gear.

 

If PVE player does put in time in grinding for gear, it should be viable for both. Likewise, those that grind PVP gear should also have the ability to be viable for both. Neither character progress should have such a distinct advantage as PVP gear has right now. This bias needs to be removed and balanced back out so you as a PVPer are not screwed over yet also those that are mainly PVEers are not either.

 

I disagree. And what I haven't been telling you is that I DO play both. I carry 2 sets of gear for two different games.

[shinzodourden]

I was fine with expertise the way it was before 1.2. If you want PvE content to be cleared with PvE gear, then give it a stat on par with expertise. Call it "Stat to help clear PvE content." Scale it exactly as if it were pre-1.2 expertise. PvP gear should offer an edge, sure, but not a massive lol edge. I mean when you have to stack 1000 expertise to be good in pvp, I'd say that someone went overboard in designing.

 

After you include the new PvE stat, scale the pvp armor stats up to match their tier pve counterpart. Shazam. You have two equally good pieces of armor that can be used anywhere. They have their own set bonuses so you can mix and match. Oh, and each gives a slight edge in their own realm of designation. However, a player can now clear PvE content and enjoy PvP content in the same gear.

 

This is a logical solution, and therefore must be ignored because of all the work that would go into scaling the PvE content to take "Stat to help clear PvE content" into account in the fights. The good news is this: Star Wars will kill itself under its own inertia, and be free to play soon enough

 

This guys got the right idea.

 

There should be a stat called "Adventurer" or "Hardiness" or "Fame" maybe "Indiana Jones" that increases the damage you do and reduces the damage you take from PvE content.

 

That or make Expertise and/or PvP gear have severe penalties against mobs.

[Aussiedroid]

I disagree. And what I haven't been telling you is that I DO play both. I carry 2 sets of gear for two different games.

 

We might have to agree to disagree ... lol

 

I did assume you do both as most players do anyways, although each may prefer one over the other.

 

I am sure PVE gear will offer better performance in FP/OPs, but was just pointing out its not really needed as it is possible to complete these with PVP gear. Its not the case the other way around though from my experience.

 

I have both sets too, but last few runs I havent bothered to change back to PVE since we are finding it easy enough to get through the instance. When we move to Hard mode OPs that may be a different kettle of fish

[The_Bucket]

So all that defense, and armor I have means nothing for my Guardian without expertise?

[Mookind]

If you don't think expertise should be in the game

 

Go look in the mirror and shoot the first thing you see.

 

Grinding for PvP gear takes literally no skill at the moment. The highest tier is available to every1 with the time to farm for it. And even if it did take skill to acquire would you really want people rolling you in campaign gear?

 

PvE and PvP are two separate entities. Mix em up and your going to lose a gear set. And wipe away any incentive to raid. Because it is again, 1000x easier to farm pvp gear.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Mookind

[Mookind]

So all that defense, and armor I have means nothing for my Guardian without expertise?

 

Go in full rakata against a sin in war hero.

 

Expertise works, maybe not as intended.

 

But war hero>campaign in WZs

[Feyak]

To revisit the original purpose of this thread.

 

Expertise in the short run, right now as we are it is okay, it sucks to start w/ 0, but when you look at the percentages, and by how far we are into the "progression" of the game, it's going to sputter out REALLY quick, as of 1.2 there are 3 levels of PVP Gear, w/ BM Gear right now

Recruit Full blue set has 896 Expertise - Increasing damage by ~18.20%

Battle Master - has 1164 Expertise - Increasing Damage done by ~22.23%

War Master - has 1291 Expertise - Increasing Damage Done by ~23.95%

 

The level of increase was to drastic to start with, i.e. it needs to be revised, either to a different system or it needs to have the values equalized, most likely top end should be prlly around 15% (speculative) where I also believe that instead of the top value being offensive, it should be the Defensive Side.

(i.e. Current Value of BM Offense(increase)/Defensive(decrease) -> 22.23%/18.18% | what I would like to see Offense(Increase)/Defensive(Decrease) -> 18.18%/22.23% - But I play a tank assassin in PVP and like taking less damage, that might be biased)

 

Then notice the difference in values between Recruit and BM(1 Tier move) approx 4%, but when we move from BM to WM Still one Tier, but such a minor change of 1.62%, they may have realized they are going to reach astronomical bonus damages by the first expansion so they reduced the "progression" but if there is a 1.62% difference between BM and WM Gear the alt stats have to have a big difference (haven't researched that).

 

Well it's not much but it is a start. Let's try to focus on Expertise as a stat, that can stick around for a long time. (and not get to 150% Bonus Damage)

[Azrienov]

I approve this message.

[Khoraji]

To revisit the original purpose of this thread.

 

Expertise in the short run, right now as we are it is okay, it sucks to start w/ 0, but when you look at the percentages, and by how far we are into the "progression" of the game, it's going to sputter out REALLY quick, as of 1.2 there are 3 levels of PVP Gear, w/ BM Gear right now

Recruit Full blue set has 896 Expertise - Increasing damage by ~18.20%

Battle Master - has 1164 Expertise - Increasing Damage done by ~22.23%

War Master - has 1291 Expertise - Increasing Damage Done by ~23.95%

 

The level of increase was to drastic to start with, i.e. it needs to be revised, either to a different system or it needs to have the values equalized, most likely top end should be prlly around 15% (speculative) where I also believe that instead of the top value being offensive, it should be the Defensive Side.

(i.e. Current Value of BM Offense(increase)/Defensive(decrease) -> 22.23%/18.18% | what I would like to see Offense(Increase)/Defensive(Decrease) -> 18.18%/22.23% - But I play a tank assassin in PVP and like taking less damage, that might be biased)

 

Then notice the difference in values between Recruit and BM(1 Tier move) approx 4%, but when we move from BM to WM Still one Tier, but such a minor change of 1.62%, they may have realized they are going to reach astronomical bonus damages by the first expansion so they reduced the "progression" but if there is a 1.62% difference between BM and WM Gear the alt stats have to have a big difference (haven't researched that).

 

Well it's not much but it is a start. Let's try to focus on Expertise as a stat, that can stick around for a long time. (and not get to 150% Bonus Damage)

 

It doesn't really matter how much expertise you are at, there is really no bonus DMG when talking about equally geared players.

 

The reason it is 22% bonus dmg and 18% mitigation is because that way, they cancel each other out perfectly.

[Razot]

To revisit the original purpose of this thread.

 

Expertise in the short run, right now as we are it is okay, it sucks to start w/ 0, but when you look at the percentages, and by how far we are into the "progression" of the game, it's going to sputter out REALLY quick, as of 1.2 there are 3 levels of PVP Gear, w/ BM Gear right now

Recruit Full blue set has 896 Expertise - Increasing damage by ~18.20%

Battle Master - has 1164 Expertise - Increasing Damage done by ~22.23%

War Master - has 1291 Expertise - Increasing Damage Done by ~23.95%

 

The level of increase was to drastic to start with, i.e. it needs to be revised, either to a different system or it needs to have the values equalized, most likely top end should be prlly around 15% (speculative) where I also believe that instead of the top value being offensive, it should be the Defensive Side.

(i.e. Current Value of BM Offense(increase)/Defensive(decrease) -> 22.23%/18.18% | what I would like to see Offense(Increase)/Defensive(Decrease) -> 18.18%/22.23% - But I play a tank assassin in PVP and like taking less damage, that might be biased)

 

Then notice the difference in values between Recruit and BM(1 Tier move) approx 4%, but when we move from BM to WM Still one Tier, but such a minor change of 1.62%, they may have realized they are going to reach astronomical bonus damages by the first expansion so they reduced the "progression" but if there is a 1.62% difference between BM and WM Gear the alt stats have to have a big difference (haven't researched that).

 

Well it's not much but it is a start. Let's try to focus on Expertise as a stat, that can stick around for a long time. (and not get to 150% Bonus Damage)

 

Its really stupid the way it is atm.

I don't like the stat but i do know why its in the game and that it will not get dumped, and although i favor a PVE only over a PVP stat that way if we ever get some kind of open world systems that works anyone can take part in and give everyone the pew pew we desire, but as for now you have to either PVP or PVE and PVE gear is useless in PVP so now even if we ever do get open world PVP you have to grind WZ's for a while to compete.

 

They should just baseline expertise and give slight primary stat increases per tier and move on to bigger better things, but instead we will play the nerf this neft that game and constantly be adjusting crap as the PVP community fades away to nothing and all but a few people who consider the WZ mini game the end all be all to PVP get a new carrot to grind for every 6 months or so.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Razot

[Finnius]

If you don't think expertise should be in the game

 

Go look in the mirror and shoot the first thing you see.

 

What a well-reasoned and thought-out response, and such a sterling and rational reason for keeping a bad stat in the game. Truly, you are a poet.

 

Ok, enough of the sarcasm.

 

This and "it's needed for balance" are basically the only arguments for keeping expertise around, both of which are easily refuted by noting that everything expertise does could be done more elegantly by a global buff / debuff while normalizing stats across PVP and PVE gear, and giving PVP gear PVP-centric set bonuses to make sure it stays on top of PVE gear in WZs.

 

And open world PVP, if we ever get that. (Which, as mentioned, is another area that expertise locks half or more of your game out of.).

 

Any PVPers have a REAL argument for keeping it around? I'm kind of curious.

[KrackenOne]

Sure, as soon as Bioware makes it impossible to use your PVP gear in PVE.

 

What is stopping you?

[Divona]

To revisit the original purpose of this thread.

 

Expertise in the short run, right now as we are it is okay, it sucks to start w/ 0, but when you look at the percentages, and by how far we are into the "progression" of the game, it's going to sputter out REALLY quick, as of 1.2 there are 3 levels of PVP Gear, w/ BM Gear right now

Recruit Full blue set has 896 Expertise - Increasing damage by ~18.20%

Battle Master - has 1164 Expertise - Increasing Damage done by ~22.23%

War Master - has 1291 Expertise - Increasing Damage Done by ~23.95%

 

The level of increase was to drastic to start with, i.e. it needs to be revised, either to a different system or it needs to have the values equalized, most likely top end should be prlly around 15% (speculative) where I also believe that instead of the top value being offensive, it should be the Defensive Side.

(i.e. Current Value of BM Offense(increase)/Defensive(decrease) -> 22.23%/18.18% | what I would like to see Offense(Increase)/Defensive(Decrease) -> 18.18%/22.23% - But I play a tank assassin in PVP and like taking less damage, that might be biased)

 

Then notice the difference in values between Recruit and BM(1 Tier move) approx 4%, but when we move from BM to WM Still one Tier, but such a minor change of 1.62%, they may have realized they are going to reach astronomical bonus damages by the first expansion so they reduced the "progression" but if there is a 1.62% difference between BM and WM Gear the alt stats have to have a big difference (haven't researched that).

 

Well it's not much but it is a start. Let's try to focus on Expertise as a stat, that can stick around for a long time. (and not get to 150% Bonus Damage)

 

Yes cap is very big in reality when playing pvp tested myself that with new recruit gear on alt. But you forgot to mention one more factor - usual stats besides expertise have also colossal difference.

If you remember old champion gear even that had alot better base stats than recruit have. I think even centurion had better stats. Now thats what kills all the new lvl 50's or alts who have left playing pvp against fully geared premades because no ranked system still on place yet along with no solo (pug) queue from team syncs.

This is what kills pvp very fast and i can confiently say it will be worse in a month.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Divona

[MouldyCrow]

I remember my old WoW PvE raiding guild doing premades in vanilla WoW running around with 3xThunderfury and 2 hands of Ragnaros. Good times. That was before there was resilience on gear.

 

Not much fun for the people being roflstomped though.

[Finnius]

I remember my old WoW PvE raiding guild doing premades in vanilla WoW running around with 3xThunderfury and 2 hands of Ragnaros. Good times. That was before there was resilience on gear.

 

Not much fun for the people being roflstomped though.

 

What a well-reasoned and thought-out response, and such a sterling and rational reason for keeping a bad stat in the game. Truly, you are a poet.

 

Ok, enough of the sarcasm.

 

This and "it's needed for balance" are basically the only arguments for keeping expertise around, both of which are easily refuted by noting that everything expertise does could be done more elegantly by a global buff / debuff while normalizing stats across PVP and PVE gear, and giving PVP gear PVP-centric set bonuses to make sure it stays on top of PVE gear in WZs.

 

And open world PVP, if we ever get that. (Which, as mentioned, is another area that expertise locks half or more of your game out of.).

 

Any PVPers have a REAL argument for keeping it around? I'm kind of curious.

 

NOTE:

Yes, I'm aware this is a word for word repost of an earlier post. I'm just going to keep copy and pasting it until one of the pro-expertise camp decides to comment, rationally and intelligently, on why it wouldn't work. The glove's been thrown, have at.

[arkzehhh]

Expertise is a stat that encourages the player to gear through pvp for pvp gear. If you can't handle shelling out for recruit gear or spending any time at all getting a decent pvp set then pls just stick to heroic 4 mans.

 

This, leave expertise as it is.

Work for your gear like everyone else does, the whole gear>skill thing might be relavent too a fresh 50 but not for long, if ur bad without it, you'll still be bad with it ( expertise that is ) if your terrible.

[Vulgarr]

What a well-reasoned and thought-out response, and such a sterling and rational reason for keeping a bad stat in the game. Truly, you are a poet.

 

Ok, enough of the sarcasm.

 

This and "it's needed for balance" are basically the only arguments for keeping expertise around, both of which are easily refuted by noting that everything expertise does could be done more elegantly by a global buff / debuff while normalizing stats across PVP and PVE gear, and giving PVP gear PVP-centric set bonuses to make sure it stays on top of PVE gear in WZs.

 

And open world PVP, if we ever get that. (Which, as mentioned, is another area that expertise locks half or more of your game out of.).

 

Any PVPers have a REAL argument for keeping it around? I'm kind of curious.

 

NOTE:

Yes, I'm aware this is a word for word repost of an earlier post. I'm just going to keep copy and pasting it until one of the pro-expertise camp decides to comment, rationally and intelligently, on why it wouldn't work. The glove's been thrown, have at.

 

the main reason for expertise in these mmos is to keep the hard to get pve items out of the pvp side of things and not require those that solely pvp to have to do pve content to be viable in matches.

 

the easiest way to fix the current pvp expertise imbalance is for bioware to implement a pvp que system that checks every persons expertise rating and to match them with others with the same or near the same ratings.

 

its what i used to want in wow, but never happened

 

wows dungeon finder does this somewhat, it locks out those who do not have a high enough ilevel from certain dungeons. it wouldnt be hard to make that lockout a range in numbers. that way all those with 0 to 500 expertise could be teamed up with each other and go against the same bracket. same with 500 to 800 expertise, and 800 to 1100, and then all 1200 and above.

 

it doesnt seem like it would be hard, and it would keep the warzones balanced. all they need is to make brackets of expertise ratings.

 

(edit: of course it would need to be an optional system. because next year there may not be many people with alts looking to pvp and it would be impossible for those players to group/join a wz without the highest rated gear) so make it an option to be able to join groups that are at your level or in a match like they are now).

 

edit 2: some of us only like pve on occasion in mmos. we like mmo pvp. and if they remove the gear system those of us in that boat wouldnt have a "carrot on a stick" to keep paying to play.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Vulgarr

[Finnius]

Less a defense of expertise and more an explanation, but it's something. What it comes down to, so far as I can tell, is that people want to pretend that even with the same stats and better set bonuses for PVP, high end PVE gear would somehow be 'better' in PVP.

 

Which leads me to seriously doubt the confidence you PVPers seem to have in your skills.

[Vulgarr]

Less a defense of expertise and more an explanation, but it's something. What it comes down to, so far as I can tell, is that people want to pretend that even with the same stats and better set bonuses for PVP, high end PVE gear would somehow be 'better' in PVP.

 

Which leads me to seriously doubt the confidence you PVPers seem to have in your skills.

 

nah our money is worth just as much as those that pve.

 

what carrot on the stick would they implement for pvp if they took out the expertise gear and relied on buffs?

 

because there needs to be something there to keep grinding from getting boring. something there to feel like you accomplish something.

 

your response is like pvpers asking for them to remove top tier raid gear so someone in green gear can do raids efficiently.

 

well what would be the purpose of doing a raid more than once (and seeing the content) if you were not trying to get gear?

[Maniiacz]

well what would be the purpose of doing a raid more than once (and seeing the content) if you were not trying to get gear?

 

uhm let me think....i know it! is something called having fun playing a game for what it is and not for what i get after killing some bosses. but it seems that ppl only play to equip themself like they achieve something important by doing it or they are pro because they cleared a raid before someone else

[Vulgarr]

uhm let me think....i know it! is something called having fun playing a game for what it is and not for what i get after killing some bosses. but it seems that ppl only play to equip themself like they achieve something important by doing it or they are pro because they cleared a raid before someone else

well what this mmo is, is a gear grind in pvp and pve.

 

once you come to acknowledge and accept that fact then you may have fun in doing it.

 

also, i (and many others) would have gotten bored a lot sooner doing the same content over and over for the past few months if there was no carrot on a stick.