Please explain to me how Civil War will be 'balanced' in rated games.

[Schwarzwald]

http://i.imgur.com/0Iaka.jpg

 

The image above shows the perfect positioning that will NEVER be broken. Asssuming that both sides are of moderately comparable skills, then the game will be decided in the first 2 minutes on how they distribute players on the initial rush.

 

The Green X with a circle represents where you store your reserve forces. Each point will primarily be defended by 2 people with 4 people occupying the X region where they will move and run to either mid or side point depending on where they are needed.

 

Feints do not work. Any and all actions taken against either point will have a short reinforce distance and all actions will be seen by the defending team. Lost players can easily reinforce which ever node and most of the time, enemies can already be safely slowed and engaged away from the point, allowing for adequate respawns to move in.

 

As it exists, there is currently NO metagame within Alderaan Civil war. The map is broken and biased towards defending teams. 1 stealther on each point could easily delay anyone attempting to cap for the forces from the X position to move into to stop them.

 

The only way that the green team would ever be broken in this position would be if they are bad players or their gear is crap. But assuming that teams are even for the most part, then its a boring stalemate that favors defending.

 

The only way you win Alderaan is by severely dominating the enemy team or you get lucky by capping a point first or when someone wasn't looking. Amazing balance bioware. This needs to be fixed before rated games come out. remove side speeders and give attackers the advantage.

[TirjacShiki]

Although your scenario can be beaten by the better team, I agree civil war is the worst designed warzone in the game.

 

It's obvious Bioware agrees, Nocare Coast is almost exactly the same but 500 times better, it's what they originally wanted for civil war but screwed up too badly so they had to remake it.

 

It needs some changes or I would be ok with it being completely removed from the game.

[dgannaway]

every time i try to stand where X is when we are defending people call me a "middle farmer," for some reason people dont see why standing there is the best way lol

[Frostbyt]

not sure if this joke after looking at the pic

[Doomsdaycomes]

<.< What about...

 

Two-Three people hit the side turret by going under mid. the other Five to Six hit mid by going the long way around. Before the fighting starts, one stealther jumps the wall. As soon as the fight starts, the defending team heads to the side to assist. Then your team comes around the back of mid, grapples both defenders, roots, cc's, etc... while the stealther on the wall takes the turret.

 

Break down:

2 of your team attacking side (fight lasts 20-30 seconds).

5 of your team grapples and slows the two defenders at mid in a blitz. (15 seconds)

1 of your team ninja caps the node. ( >10 seconds)

 

Possible in a pug? Ha... ha... ha ha ha... -dies laughing-

 

Possible in a rated team, on vent? Yes. ^_^ Not the best plan, but it sure has a chance of breaking your "unbeatable" squiggly drawing.

[Synxos]

So the team that gets 2 nodes first wins, right?

Both teams have the same chance to get 2 nodes first, therefore the better team will get 2 nodes first.

in other words, it's balanced. The better team will still always win.

[Rizael]

Wall sitting is closer and faster, or sitting on the drop down point up top...

 

I think the only solution is teams of operatives stun locking the nodes, but that would lead to another nerf for the class so don't do it!

[Zocat]

<.< What about...

 

Two-Three people hit the side turret by going under mid. the other Five to Six hit mid by going the long way around. Before the fighting starts, one stealther jumps the wall. As soon as the fight starts, the defending team heads to the side to assist. Then your team comes around the back of mid, grapples both defenders, roots, cc's, etc... while the stealther on the wall takes the turret.

 

Break down:

2 of your team attacking side (fight lasts 20-30 seconds).

5 of your team grapples and slows the two defenders at mid in a blitz. (15 seconds)

1 of your team ninja caps the node. ( >10 seconds)

 

Possible in a pug? Ha... ha... ha ha ha... -dies laughing-

 

Possible in a rated team, on vent? Yes. ^_^ Not the best plan, but it sure has a chance of breaking your "unbeatable" squiggly drawing.

 

They will never send all 4 mid defenders to left if that side is only attacked by 2-3 people.

Also keep in mind that they can position people ON the wall which leaves the building and and is slightly L shaped (healers, ranged) to support the lower guys. And if they backtrack that wall to where it's part of the building they can defend mid.

Also one of the mid defenders will be stationed on the upper level, and can look down see how many people enter the underground tunnel. They will see how many you will send "west" (in the picture) and how many will try to go around.

 

The best solution is:

Crush the X force without many casualties (8vs4). Go mid and hope someone can delay the reinforcements (AoE slow/mezz). Yes, I'm sacrificing the defender. But it's better to play from a postition where you have mid compared where you have a side node.

 

So the team that gets 2 nodes first wins, right?

Both teams have the same chance to get 2 nodes first, therefore the better team will get 2 nodes first.

in other words, it's balanced. The better team will still always win.

 

Correct, but (if that would be indeed an unwinniable situation) why continue fighting?

It's basically the same with the "only a 3 cap can save us". You will never get a 3 cap against a competent team which is on your level. They should just let the WZ end at that time.

Edited April 28, 2012 by Zocat

[Zunayson]

Huttball is unbalanced because it favors the defenders. If you have the ball (attackers), you only get two minutes with it! FIX FIX FIX FIX FIX

 

I don't see the problem with Alderaan's bias. As a poster above said, any decent team will employ this "unbreakable" strategy right back at them, and the best skilled... eh.. I mean geared will probably take the nodes first and win.

[KantaUO]

What about chain grapple a defender out of the area and stealth cap... Works occasionally for my team vs other 8 man premades (teams that synch que)

 

We don't always have correct composition to make this work though...We have also smuggled feints and run over the back wall while feigning 2 left after dropping right

 

http://i.imgur.com/0Iaka.jpg

 

The image above shows the perfect positioning that will NEVER be broken. Asssuming that both sides are of moderately comparable skills, then the game will be decided in the first 2 minutes on how they distribute players on the initial rush.

 

The Green X with a circle represents where you store your reserve forces. Each point will primarily be defended by 2 people with 4 people occupying the X region where they will move and run to either mid or side point depending on where they are needed.

 

Feints do not work. Any and all actions taken against either point will have a short reinforce distance and all actions will be seen by the defending team. Lost players can easily reinforce which ever node and most of the time, enemies can already be safely slowed and engaged away from the point, allowing for adequate respawns to move in.

 

As it exists, there is currently NO metagame within Alderaan Civil war. The map is broken and biased towards defending teams. 1 stealther on each point could easily delay anyone attempting to cap for the forces from the X position to move into to stop them.

 

The only way that the green team would ever be broken in this position would be if they are bad players or their gear is crap. But assuming that teams are even for the most part, then its a boring stalemate that favors defending.

 

The only way you win Alderaan is by severely dominating the enemy team or you get lucky by capping a point first or when someone wasn't looking. Amazing balance bioware. This needs to be fixed before rated games come out. remove side speeders and give attackers the advantage.

[veyl]

You mentioned stealth holding a node, yet don't understand how stealth can be used to make your little picture easily exploited?

 

That choke point is easily passed.

[Schwarzwald]

So the team that gets 2 nodes first wins, right?

Both teams have the same chance to get 2 nodes first, therefore the better team will get 2 nodes first.

in other words, it's balanced. The better team will still always win.

 

If you want to assume that both teams are exactly the same, then the game will be 1 cap on each team and who ever got theirs first wins.

 

Its a poorly designed map when stalemates are built in at every point.

[Boissi]

So the team that gets 2 nodes first wins, right?

Both teams have the same chance to get 2 nodes first, therefore the better team will get 2 nodes first.

in other words, it's balanced. The better team will still always win.

 

So it's cool to you that people might as well sit at their node for the rest of the fight after the initial rush. 10 minutes of doing nothing, or just fighting in vain. Sounds like a good time.

 

Also, the initial rush has a lot of guesswork involved instead of actual skill. You don't know where the other team will go. If they divide their forces better, it's a likely win. Then again, in the next match their "better" division might fail because another team divides their forces differently.

 

Civil War is a horrible map. A good map would give the attacking team the advantage, not the defenders, to make the game more lively and exciting for both parties. In Novare Coast it works well. Never a dull moment there. Alderaan on the other hand, well, it just sucks. I wish they'd try removing the side speeders at least, no idea why that change didn't go live. Also, would be good if you couldn't jump over the walls anymore. Every little bit of added running needed for defense would help the attackers quite a lot.

[Schwarzwald]

Huttball is unbalanced because it favors the defenders. If you have the ball (attackers), you only get two minutes with it! FIX FIX FIX FIX FIX

 

I don't see the problem with Alderaan's bias. As a poster above said, any decent team will employ this "unbreakable" strategy right back at them, and the best skilled... eh.. I mean geared will probably take the nodes first and win.

 

huttball on the other hand has a higher individual player skill cap.

 

There is more to huttball then just standing on a point and moving around and preventing caps.

 

The timed pitfalls, teammed coordination and the dynamic nature of Huttball allows for more scenarios to possibly happen. There are only a few scenarios that will play out in Alderaan.

 

There is also a variety of abilities and techniques that can be used in different ways to allow the development of a Metagame within huttball, this is not true in alderaan.

[Boissi]

You mentioned stealth holding a node, yet don't understand how stealth can be used to make your little picture easily exploited?

 

That choke point is easily passed.

 

Just one guy in stealth can hold against multiple attackers very effectively. It's just buying time until more defenders come, and in a ranked game, they inevitably will come before the stealther runs out of tricks.

[Schwarzwald]

Break down:

2 of your team attacking side (fight lasts 20-30 seconds).

5 of your team grapples and slows the two defenders at mid in a blitz. (15 seconds)

1 of your team ninja caps the node. ( >10 seconds)

 

 

I said Rated games.

 

If you are doing Rated group with pugs, then the conversation ends here. I am talking strictly about 8v8 with premade teams where you queue into the game with 8 teammates.

 

I am talking about top level teams who will be playing each other on the queue system because they will only be up against other top level teams.

 

Your scenario still doesn't hold water and you act like the defending team is going to be static.

 

Also how is this stealth capper going to stealth cap? 2 people attack the side had potentially the same output and if you have 3 healers in a warzone, 1 on each point and 1 in the X group, then you are just going to be met by a brick wall every time.

 

The people at X will be able to move between people spawning trying to charge mid. the X position can be reinforced from flying into the side node and running. Mid can be reinforced by taking the middle point.

 

So really, there is no way to actually penetrate this position if you assume equally skilled teams.

[Schwarzwald]

Just one guy in stealth can hold against multiple attackers very effectively. It's just buying time until more defenders come, and in a ranked game, they inevitably will come before the stealther runs out of tricks.

 

This.

 

I've seen 2 Jedi Shadow hold off 5 people trying to attack a point until the rest of their team ran from the other side of the map.

 

Its pretty much impossible to deal with the chain saps, stuns, knockbacks and their own CC immunities. Its about buying time until the rest of the team arrives.

[BlindingShadow]

Of the 3 original ws's, always found Alderaan to be the most balanced. And Huttball to be the most imbalanced. Know why? Cuz I play Smuggler. Anyone with stealth has a natural advantage in Alderaan (I E me), anyone with jumps/ pulls has a natural advantage in Huttball (I E not me). NC is where BW found a good balance. Personally, a good team will overcome any obstacle in most games. There is no "perfect defense".

 

A simple way to counter yours would be a smuggle 5 player over the fence from east/ west to mid (depending on which you control) and send 1 tank with a pull and healer to hold the rest off. Stuns, knock backs, good healing, etc. can hold that entire force you conveniently placed off mid for easily enough time for 5 people to overwhelm 1-2 people or do a well coordinated stunlock to cap. Only 2 people die, giving not time for the opposition to re spawn and help.

[Schwarzwald]

Of the 3 original ws's, always found Alderaan to be the most balanced. And Huttball to be the most imbalanced. Know why? Cuz I play Smuggler. Anyone with stealth has a natural advantage in Alderaan (I E me), anyone with jumps/ pulls has a natural advantage in Huttball (I E not me). NC is where BW found a good balance. Personally, a good team will overcome any obstacle in most games. There is no "perfect defense".

 

A simple way to counter yours would be a smuggle 5 player over the fence from east/ west to mid (depending on which you control) and send 1 tank with a pull and healer to hold the rest off. Stuns, knock backs, good healing, etc. can hold that entire force you conveniently placed off mid for easily enough time for 5 people to overwhelm 1-2 people or do a well coordinated stunlock to cap. Only 2 people die, giving not time for the opposition to re spawn and help.

 

And what if the defending person has 1 person dedicated to never come out of stealth unless absolutely necessary. That one person can chain sap any person who comes even close to doing a full cap. This is more then enough time for a group to transition from the X position.

 

Yeah, sure a whole group appears on the point at once, but one stealther can still delay them long enough for the rest of your team to be ontop of the platform defending the capture point.

[Astarica]

Alderran is practically impossible to come back from behind, but like someone said the better team is still going to be the team that caps two nodes first, so it's still balanced. It may feel very pointless when the game is over as soon as someone caps two nodes, but it's still balanced. Don't confuse boring with balanced. In Huttball, the better team usually wins too, but it's more exciting because there's more back and forth action. Still, the better team will generally still win the game.

[fungihoujo]

Although your scenario can be beaten by the better team, I agree civil war is the worst designed warzone in the game.

 

It's obvious Bioware agrees, Nocare Coast is almost exactly the same but 500 times better, it's what they originally wanted for civil war but screwed up too badly so they had to remake it.

 

It needs some changes or I would be ok with it being completely removed from the game.

 

If Alderaan had the same capture point mechanic, I think it'd be a pretty good match.

[Astarica]

If Alderaan had the same capture point mechanic, I think it'd be a pretty good match.

 

Well in NC, it basically means the team that won the deathmatch at a node can always cap it, which makes too much sense, so it's not used in Alderaan.

[limibeans]

Alderran is all about the the first 30 seconds. Two evenly matched teams will both get one node at the start and will indefinitely battle for the 3rd for the rest of the match. It's actually happened before, where neither team could get the 3rd node which ends up staying neutral for the whole match and the team with the quicker "first cap" wins the game by 1 or 2 "ticks".

 

There is no magical opening strategy that guarantees you will get 2 (or 3 nodes) against an evenly matched team. There ARE strategies to help make sure you get the first "tick" which may end up determining whether or not you will win or lose. Popping a "sprint ability" to help you get to a node first is one example. Sending AoE CC/Slows to intercept attackers and slow them down is another.

 

Novair Coast's scoring system was the solution to Alderrans "first to cap wins" problem, the "less than/more than twice" problem, and 1 vs. 100 problem.

 

Alderran really is poorly designed and has loads of problems and I feel like its going to get a huge makeover or it will be removed all together. It's also the only WZ that doesnt support same faction queuing.

[ForsakenToyz]

Of the 3 original ws's, always found Alderaan to be the most balanced. And Huttball to be the most imbalanced. Know why? Cuz I play Smuggler. Anyone with stealth has a natural advantage in Alderaan (I E me), anyone with jumps/ pulls has a natural advantage in Huttball (I E not me). NC is where BW found a good balance. Personally, a good team will overcome any obstacle in most games. There is no "perfect defense".

 

A simple way to counter yours would be a smuggle 5 player over the fence from east/ west to mid (depending on which you control) and send 1 tank with a pull and healer to hold the rest off. Stuns, knock backs, good healing, etc. can hold that entire force you conveniently placed off mid for easily enough time for 5 people to overwhelm 1-2 people or do a well coordinated stunlock to cap. Only 2 people die, giving not time for the opposition to re spawn and help.

 

I'm not quite understand, how mirrored map can be unbalanced? It's only skill depended. You are bad? Yeah, let's go to forum, whine some tears.

[Astarica]

Alderran is all about the the first 30 seconds. Two evenly matched teams will both get one node at the start and will indefinitely battle for the 3rd for the rest of the match. It's actually happened before, where neither team could get the 3rd node which ends up staying neutral for the whole match and the team with the quicker "first cap" wins the game by 1 or 2 "ticks".

 

There is no magical opening strategy that guarantees you will get 2 (or 3 nodes) against an evenly matched team. There ARE strategies to help make sure you get the first "tick" which may end up determining whether or not you will win or lose. Popping a "sprint ability" to help you get to a node first is one example. Sending AoE CC/Slows to intercept attackers and slow them down is another.

 

Novair Coast's scoring system was the solution to Alderrans "first to cap wins" problem, the "less than/more than twice" problem, and 1 vs. 100 problem.

 

Alderran really is poorly designed and has loads of problems and I feel like its going to get a huge makeover or it will be removed all together. It's also the only WZ that doesnt support same faction queuing.

 

I had a game like this and when it got down to 250-245 (we are the 245) with middle still uncapped. We had to attack their side at that point since it looked like a perpetual stalemate and then they easily repel the side attack and capped middle since we pulled guys off the middle brawl, and really I knew we weren't going to take their side cannon or defeat their middle force and it's really lame to fight 15 minutes in middle when the game is over in the first 30 seconds.