Tactics 101: The Diversion

[Philosomanic]

Here's something that really bugs me when people don't understand it, so I'm going to spell it out.

 

In capture-point warzones (Alderaan/Novare), you will not win if you split up. If you try to capture/hold three nodes, and your enemy is only focusing on two nodes, then they will win. At any given node, they will have superior numbers, giving them a large advantage. This means that splitting up as a team strategy is a bad idea. However, this isn't always a bad tactic for a single player. Let me set the scene:

 

It's Alderaan. My team is holding the left node. The enemy has the center and right node, with one guarding right. 7 players from each team are fighting over the middle node. It's Alderaan, so the defenders have a massive advantage. We have a couple promising pushes that almost net the node, but we're always stopped at the last second. We're getting close to the "they've doubled your score, you auto-lose" moment.

 

I decide to do something to shake it up. I'm going to go harass the right node. As an experienced player playing against a PUG, I know one of two things will happen:

 

1. The player guarding right is a scrub. They won't call out that I'm coming, I'll kill them, and I'll take the node.
   
2. The player is a normal/good player. They'll call out for help. A couple enemy players will go to assist him. They'll kill me, but I'm good enough to keep them busy for a while.
   

 

If #1 happens, then yay! We just have to hold onto left and right and we win. If #2 happens, I've turned the central node fight into a 6-7 v 4-5, giving my team a much better chance of capping. I've taken one player away from my team, but several players away from the enemy (for a good 30s or more).

 

That's how it should happen. Here's what really happens:

 

• I type "I am going to go be a DISTRACTION at the right node. NOBODY FOLLOW ME. If you follow me, WE WILL LOSE. Stay at mid and cap it." in ops chat.
  
• I head out towards right, and I'm not obvious about it. The enemy probably doesn't notice.
  
• Two players see me going right, and follow. One of them runs up the ramp in the central node. The enemy notices.
  
• Another two players stop, stand still in the middle of a raging war, and PM me about how I'm a noob/scrub/moron. One of them will likely continue to do so for a good ten minutes after the WZ ends.
  
• Three players actually attempt to cap mid, and die horribly. They then go into ops chat to whine about how they had no backup.
  

 

 

The diversion is an incredibly valid strategy. You lose one player on your team, and he distracts several enemy players, keeping them out of the fight and giving you an edge. However, the diversion only really works if it's synchronized by a coordinated push from the people at mid. If I draw a few players off, and you all give it your best, we have a strong chance at grabbing mid.

 

However, once people follow me, it changes from "Diversion" to "Splitting up", which is a horrible mistake. Before you send me hate-filled PMs, realize that it wasn't my fault the effort failed. It was the fault of the people who followed me because they don't read Ops chat, and the fault of the people who stood around cussing me out rather than taking advantage of the window I provided and winning.

 

Moral of the story: If you see one man going out alone to the enemy node, go to the central node and kill everything in sight. Worry about calling people noobs when the warzone is over, and for the Republic's sake don't follow him.

[Twor]

1. The act or an instance of diverting or turning aside; deviation.

2. Something that distracts the mind and relaxes or entertains.

3. A maneuver that draws the attention of an opponent away from a planned point of action, especially as part of military strategy.

 

->3: 2 more people follow you, the inc is called and 6 opponents rush to defeat you 3. The diversion is a success.

 

You mean tactic 100a, ninja cap by solo capping a node. For tactic 101, the diversion, the 2 people following you did correctly. The others didn't.

If you try to cap a node alone all you will get is a: l1 as incoming call against you. If 3 people rush in you will get an l5 incoming call as everyone wants to rush over, so the respawning 5 people should have no trouble taking mid

Edited April 27, 2012 by Twor

[Varicite]

It's even better when you're a stealther and 2 non-stealthers follow you in the most conspicuous fashion possible. Edited April 27, 2012 by Varicite

[Varicite]

1. The act or an instance of diverting or turning aside; deviation.

2. Something that distracts the mind and relaxes or entertains.

3. A maneuver that draws the attention of an opponent away from a planned point of action, especially as part of military strategy.

 

->3: 2 more people follow you, the inc is called and 6 opponents rush to defeat you 3. The diversion is a success.

 

You mean tactic 100a, ninja cap by solo capping a node. For tactic 101, the diversion, the 2 people following you did correctly. The others didn't.

 

Diversions generally don't work if you send too many men out on your feint and no longer have enough troops to capture the main objective.

 

That is actually the opposite of a success.

 

PS) It's typically better not to count on your enemies being braindead. : )

Edited April 27, 2012 by Varicite

[flem]

Actually, it often works when *one* (and only one) person follows you, to swing around back and cap before the defenders notice.

 

I guess that's a different play, though. The real problem in bad PUGs is that they zerg everywhere, not just in this situation.

[Rippeh]

You can't use tactics in a pug. The smart move would have been to rage quit the second you realized your team was stupider than theirs. Sometimes your shoulders are just not strong enough to carry some of these mouth breathers to victory.

[Philosomanic]

1. The act or an instance of diverting or turning aside; deviation.

2. Something that distracts the mind and relaxes or entertains.

3. A maneuver that draws the attention of an opponent away from a planned point of action, especially as part of military strategy.

 

->3: 2 more people follow you, the inc is called and 6 opponents rush to defeat you 3. The diversion is a success.

 

You mean tactic 100a, ninja cap by solo capping a node. For tactic 101, the diversion, the 2 people following you did correctly. The others didn't.

 

No, they didn't. I typically see 2-3 (occasionally 4) people respond to an inc call. If I were to go alone, it would mean that I'm solo distracting 3-4 people, for the price of one person. If two people follow me, we're distracting equal numbers. Since defenders have a large advantage, our odds of capping the right node aren't all that big. It's more of a distraction with a chance of capping if you're lucky than an actual attempt to capture. In other words:

 

If we all stay at mid, there is a 7-8 v 7 fight.

 

If no one follows, there is a 6-7 v 4-5, and a 1 v 3-4. The central fight has a high chance of succeeding.

 

If two people follow, there is a 4-5 v 4-5 and a 3-4 v 3-4. We actually have worse odds than if we'd all stayed at mid.

[sharkfinsix]

diversions can and do work, but timing is often critical, and thats the hard part to control in the PUG

[Philosomanic]

Actually, it often works when *one* (and only one) person follows you, to swing around back and cap before the defenders notice.

 

I guess that's a different play, though. The real problem in bad PUGs is that they zerg everywhere, not just in this situation.

 

One person sometimes works, especially if they're a stealth class with a lot of burst. In that case, it's not a big enough group to draw lots of attention, and we actually have a decent chance of pulling off a cap. But I'm still of the opinion that a single person going for ninja cap/distraction is best.

[Astarica]

The winning team almost always has 2 people defending an objective.

 

If you tried to harass them you just turn out to be a free kill. They don't need to respond to it, and the enemy team is not at a disadvantage because the job of those 2 defender is to kill you in the first place. They're not going to leave their post to begin with.

 

By the way, even in the 1on1 case, you always should call for help because you cannot possibly know if there's another guy stealthed nearby and it's too much risk to take to lose a node when you're already winning. A good team will send an extra person in this case, always. Since you need one person defending at your own node, this doesn't create a mismatch anywhere else (2v1 at one node, 6v6 another node, 0v1 at your node).

 

The only way harassment works is if you can win 1on2 so the enemy is pressured to send 3 or more guys to deal with one guy, but that's not tactics. That's just plain overpowering the opposition, and it's hard to imagine ever being behind in a game if you got a guy who can reliably win 1on2.

[Varicite]

The winning team almost always has 2 people defending an objective.

 

If you tried to harass them you just turn out to be a free kill. They don't need to respond to it, and the enemy team is not at a disadvantage because the job of those 2 defender is to kill you in the first place. They're not going to leave their post to begin with.

 

By the way, even in the 1on1 case, you always should call for help because you cannot possibly know if there's another guy stealthed nearby and it's too much risk to take to lose a node when you're already winning. A good team will send an extra person in this case, always. Since you need one person defending at your own node, this doesn't create a mismatch anywhere else (2v1 at one node, 6v6 another node, 0v1 at your node).

 

The only way harassment works is if you can win 1on2 so the enemy is pressured to send 3 or more guys to deal with one guy, but that's not tactics. That's just plain overpowering the opposition, and it's hard to imagine ever being behind in a game if you got a guy who can reliably win 1on2.

 

I typically distract w/ 2 stealthers.

 

Cuts down on enemies calling incs beforehand, and if it's 2 defenders, you can typically kill them w/ a coordinated attack before they know what's happening.

 

If not, they will get a good number of people out to that node because of the panic and probably not being able to type out specifics while being jumped by 2 stealthers.

 

Either way, a win. : )

[TheronFett]

There is a big difference between tactics and strategy. Learn them before creating a thread about them.

 

The scenario laid out in the original post is so full of fail, it's difficult if not impossible to take it seriously.

[Philosomanic]

There is a big difference between tactics and strategy. Learn them before creating a thread about them.

 

The scenario laid out in the original post is so full of fail, it's difficult if not impossible to take it seriously.

 

I've had this exact scenario happen, and I've had the diversion actually work as well. I guess there's no way to prove that it was me, but the fact that I was keeping 3 people buys can't have hurt the fight in the middle.

 

Nonetheless, I'll freely admit that I'm far from the best player. There are always new things to learn. Care to pass on some of your wisdom?

[Twor]

No, they didn't. I typically see 2-3 (occasionally 4) people respond to an inc call. If I were to go alone, it would mean that I'm solo distracting 3-4 people, for the price of one person. If two people follow me, we're distracting equal numbers. Since defenders have a large advantage, our odds of capping the right node aren't all that big. It's more of a distraction with a chance of capping if you're lucky than an actual attempt to capture. In other words:

 

If we all stay at mid, there is a 7-8 v 7 fight.

 

If no one follows, there is a 6-7 v 4-5, and a 1 v 3-4. The central fight has a high chance of succeeding.

 

If two people follow, there is a 4-5 v 4-5 and a 3-4 v 3-4. We actually have worse odds than if we'd all stayed at mid.

 

 

Its luck. And completely random as in random WZs. (Meaning how many people will run to an incoming call)

If one guy harasses a node they will send one more to the node. Not 2 or 3 ( in the case of good players, if they aren't good you should be able to take mid anyways).

 

Like someone said that creates equal numbers at the center as you still have one on your left. Your tactic can work, it can as well harm the team because you get slaughtered as a freekill when that scoundrel pops out of stealth while you attack.

Also if you are such a great player as you state, you should be able to take mid with the one more player you usually have (again as someone said left node is usually double teamed).

 

So the best case is usually to split up during the game and therefore force the opponent to split up as well. Who splits better up usually wins anyways. Or do a lucky ninja cap.

 

Anyways you're speaking of PuGs. Don't complain about puggers not following the orders from someone who selfproclaims himself as a great player- its a natural reaction in MMOs to ignore the orders of the (seemingly)arrogant

[Astarica]

I typically distract w/ 2 stealthers.

 

Cuts down on enemies calling incs beforehand, and if it's 2 defenders, you can typically kill them w/ a coordinated attack before they know what's happening.

 

If not, they will get a good number of people out to that node because of the panic and probably not being able to type out specifics while being jumped by 2 stealthers.

 

Either way, a win. : )

 

Why would your attacking team of 2 have any advantage over the defender especially on a map like Alderran where the defense has a huge advantage? Sure stealther heavily implies a Tankasin who are overpowered but what if the defenders are 2 Tankasins too? Why would they panic knowing they got two of the most powerful characters in the game against 2 mirror matches? Yes I know people panic over all kinds of stuff so it can certainly work, but there's really no reason for the defender to panic on a 2on2 especially in Alderaan. Since you presumably still have one person defending the node you control (if not, there's all kinds of problem you may have to a counterattack), this means the enemy has a man advantage in the center node. Given the enemy is winning in the first place, this means the center node is likely to end in a quick wipeout. Even if center misjudged and send 2 to help, now you got 4v2 in side and 4v5 in center, but the winning team with the 4 probably won't lose the node against 5 either, because they're winning.

[Doomsdaycomes]

I would simply say, thinking a PuG is going to understand what you're doing, even if you typed it, is pretty pointless.

 

The "tactic" or rather strategy in question, is not fool proof however, and relies on the enemy making too many mistakes. While more people folowing you doesn't help, I do hope you aren't saying "It would have worked if..." because it simply doesn't work 75% of the time.

[Twor]

I would simply say, thinking a PuG is going to understand what you're doing, even if you typed it, is pretty pointless.

 

The "tactic" or rather strategy in question, is not fool proof however, and relies on the enemy making too many mistakes. While more people folowing you doesn't help, I do hope you aren't saying "It would have worked if..." because it simply doesn't work 75% of the time.

 

Thats the beauty and the horror of PuGs. You can't expect anything, ever.

[ComeAndSee]

Ah, diversions. My favorite tactic.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Thats the beauty and the horror of PuGs. You can't expect anything, ever.

 

^_^ too true.

 

Now not saying the Diversion won't work, or can't work in a pug, (because I've done it). But this is never a go to strategy. This is a desperation strategy.

[Astarica]

For the typical game where the enemy controls 2 objectives in Alderran, there are only very few wrokable tactics. Assuming the enemy did not control 2 nodes due to some epic failure in communication (i.e. 7 of your guys went to natural at start), you can safely assume the enemy outclasses you in straight up deathmatching or they wouldn't have 2 nodes to begin with. The only workable strat all involves NOT attacking, because this is the only way to overcome the standard 6 middle/2 side tactic. A winning team setup in a standard 6/2 can simply respond to every attack you make, and by the virtue of being stronger, they'll always be able to stop you no matter how you split up your 7 guys since they can predict where your team is going as a function of respawns. That is, if 4 guys got killed in middle, they can predict you'll have to be going to side next because you've no chance of taking middle and must be hitting the other spot.

 

However once you stop attacking, most teams will abandon the 6/2 formation because if they can't see you, they can't predict your attack, so they'll switch to something that's more like 4/4 because 2 people on side can't stop 6 guys rushing a side cannon most of the time. This means now you can try to hit middle with 6 or 7 and try to retake that, or if they still stuck with 6/2 you can try to get 6 guys to attack a side cannon. The point is that once the enemy stop seeing your side dying, they can no longer reliably predict where you're going to hit next. They might even get complacent and go AFK, or get greedy and try to 3 cap (this is the best scenario you can hope for).

 

That said you still most likely won't turn the game around. Alderaan is extremely difficult to win once you're behind, though these tactics may help you get more medals.

[Wintervoid]

Last night in a Voidstar we had successfully defended the first door. Pretty even matchup on teams.

 

A few minutes in while we were attacking, it continued to be a stalemate. After a death, I noticed there was no one visible on the E door. I assumed that there was a Stealth near by, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

 

I stealth up (Sawbones) and start to cap. I get attacked and survive for a bit before a second comes over to finish me off. He leaves after I am dead.

 

I continue to do this 2-3 times in a row. Soon there are two always on the E door. I am dying pretty quickly (Good DPS. If they were bad DPS I can run them around for a while) I always head out unstealthed and stealth within view/ and then vary when I attack/mez.

 

After getting them into a rhythm, I stealth and turn to the W door. I am bad DPS, but adding a bit and making sure we do not lose anyone, we were able to quickly cap 8 vs 6 and win.

 

This doesn't always work. But in a stalemate or a losing position, I will take a gamble like this once in a while.

[Philosomanic]

^_^ too true.

 

Now not saying the Diversion won't work, or can't work in a pug, (because I've done it). But this is never a go to strategy. This is a desperation strategy.

 

Oh, definitely not a go-to strategy. But if we've been trying the same thing for the last five minutes and it's not working, this might just give us a chance.

 

Also, Novare > Alderaan, by far. The amount of effort required to capture or defend a node is far more reasonable.

[Varicite]

Why would your attacking team of 2 have any advantage over the defender especially on a map like Alderran where the defense has a huge advantage? Sure stealther heavily implies a Tankasin who are overpowered but what if the defenders are 2 Tankasins too? Why would they panic knowing they got two of the most powerful characters in the game against 2 mirror matches? Yes I know people panic over all kinds of stuff so it can certainly work, but there's really no reason for the defender to panic on a 2on2 especially in Alderaan. Since you presumably still have one person defending the node you control (if not, there's all kinds of problem you may have to a counterattack), this means the enemy has a man advantage in the center node. Given the enemy is winning in the first place, this means the center node is likely to end in a quick wipeout. Even if center misjudged and send 2 to help, now you got 4v2 in side and 4v5 in center, but the winning team with the 4 probably won't lose the node against 5 either, because they're winning.

 

I attack w/ a Tankasin and Deception assassin. We don't usually have too many problems w/ double Tankasins, as we have more combined DPS than 2 Tankasins. It's also helpful that we play in the same room, so target switches and CCs go off w/out a hitch.

 

Unless it's a premade, when stealthers pop, at least one of them is going to need to type to Ops chat that there are stealthers at their node. It only takes about 5-10 seconds for us to blow one of them up and either CC the other to cap the node, or just kill them outright. Don't underestimate Deception's burst capability; it's not squishy when guarded and I'm taunting anyone attacking them.

 

Definitely not saying this works for everyone, but it's been rather successful for us. : )

[Rhadamanthine]

Best part is Voidstar when you're a stealther and mezz a lone defender into using his break then mezz him again, then when you're going to bomb the door some sent who should be on the other side taking advantage of the panic created by people leaving that side cause 'we're going to lose that door!' comes and attacks the mezzed guy and breaks it.

[AngryMunkee]

Diversion works best in Hutball..... When you're team has the ball and are on their side... Drop off the walkways into the pit and have 2 or 3 guys drop with you to kill you..... End result is me dead, but we end up scoring