Myths About Marauders

[TheGreatNeechi]

TLDR: I don't buy OP's claim DPS Operatives kill him easily. I don't think he knows how to play his class against an Operative.

 

Did I just see OP say that DPS Operatives kill him easily?

 

I'd like to meet these Operatives, because as a player whose main is an Operative, who played Concealment from way back before 1.1.1 when Acid Blade had 50% armor penetration, who's been there for every Operative nerf since... I think OP is full of it.

 

Marauders have vastly superior defensive abilities than Operatives, who rely on trying to maintain a stun lock which inevitably culminates in resolve immunity. They recently nerfed back stab for some reason, further reducing our ability to get that extra DPS from Acid Blade (yes, other than armor penetration, Acid Blade does extra damage straight up. It's a bread and butter skill).

 

All the Operatives and Scoundrels I see these days are Medicine/Sawbones... we've turned into healers... some of the best healers now, though the least survivable. I don't hold it against players when they single out healers, it's a smart tactical decision to shut down healers, but for all our buffed healing with 1.2 we are the easiest of healers to eliminate. At least it looks that way on my end. I've had my glory moments of kiting a Sentinel while spamming Surgical Probe under 30% health, but that chase can only go for so long, especially while I waste GCDs tapping Toxin Scan to cleanse his DoTs. Eventually... he gets me.

 

Sometimes I can turn around and hit him with a Debilitate. I can get away when my Cloak Screen isn't on cooldown (it usually is). Sometimes I have a flash bang up, but I have to pop those skills so often they're always on cool down. When I get away from one attacker, there's another after me: I'm a healer. I deal with it. I accept it.

 

I would go back to Concealment and DPS, but BioWare has made it glaringly apparent they don't want Operatives hitting very hard, or sustaining DPS for any period of time. I think they always intended for us to be a support class.

[LiveandDieinLA]

This Is actually a really good post. +1

[RiChess]

I do find it funny that you picked 4 TREEs that can counter you, not ACs, skill trees. Is a madness or dec sin going to out DPS a mara? No. How about a lethality or engineering sniper? No. Healing or lethality OP? Lol. Head needs to be removed from ***. Any mara tree will beat all but 4 trees spread over 4 ACs. And forget about any sorc or merc tree beating you. Now what? You're not OP b/c 4 trees can have somewhat equal footing?

[zaknaphein]

Everything I hear about marauders nowadays is that they are unkillable and uncounterable tanks that 2 shot everything with ravage and are unbeatable in 1v1 and so on. So I feel like I should clear up some of these "myths".

 

Myth #1- Marauders are the best 1v1 class.

 

I'll start by saying. NOPE. In fact marauders actually lose to A LOT of classes 1v1. I will list the classes that will beat marauders given equal gear and skill.

 

Tankassins

DPS operatives

Snipers

Vigilance Juggernauts

 

Those are 4/7 of the other classes that when played correctly will beat a marauder in 1v1. Other classes are either stalemates or in the marauders favor. Most notably Marauders have a very large advantage against Mercenaries and Sorcerers. This is probably the biggest reason marauders are catching so much hate. They counter the two most popular classes played.

 

 

Myth #2 - Marauders are harder to kill than tanks.

 

Again. NOPE. To prove this just have a marauder try to carrying the huttball with 2-3 healers behind him. He will die in <30 seconds from 6+ dps simply because his defenses are very temporary. Now take a Tank Juggernaut with 2-3 healers behind him. He can /dance for hours with 6 dps hitting him(especially if they are marauders who have to deal with their shields unlike most classes)

 

Also god forbid a pure melee class with 0 frontloaded damage and minimal CC isn't easily focus fired and killed for 12 seconds if they burn their 3 min CD defense.

 

 

Myth #3 - Marauders are unstoppable in Group PVP.

 

Surprise. NOPE. To start with marauders get absolutely destroyed by Snipers in group pvp. The fact that their aren't many is a problem, but not a reason to nerf Marauders. Secondly Marauders do exceedingly well against Arsenal Mercs and Sorcerers. The fact is there are A LOT sorcerers and mercs running around and so Marauders tend to do very well against these teams. Marauders also don't handle any kind of Tank well at all in PVP due to the majority of their damage being mitigated by Shields.

 

So basically marauders counter the most popular classes while being countered themselves by the least popular class. Solution? Find a few good snipers to PVP with, or better yet stop playing a sorcerer/trooper and reroll Sniper if you want to win vs marauders easily. It will fix the population imbalance AND help counter marauders. So basically like the other 99% of things complained about on the forums "There are counters to the problem that you should be using instead of trying to nerf everything that has an advantage over you. If you don't know what they are then ask someone who does know.".

 

Myth #4- Marauders are finally topping "Damage Done" in WZs

 

NOP......Actually this isn't a myth. Marauders are now actually competing for the top dps slot along with classes like Sorcerers/Pyrotechs/Snipers. I don't really see how this is a problem though. 99% of marauders rolled the class because they wanted to do the most damage in the game. They decided it was worth sacrificing the option to ever tank, or to heal, or to have gaurd/taunt, or to have a pull/knockback, or having good CC, or to have any ranged abilities. So basically you have a class that sacrifices basically EVERYTHING just to have top spot for damage dealing. So now that they actually are competing for that top spot people are complaining about it?

Myth #5- Marauders are unkiteable.

 

In a 1v1 battle I will agree that it is very difficult to impossible for most classes to kite a well played marauder for very long and this is fine(However a hybrid Sorc or Sniper can do a VERY good job of kiting 1v1). However in a group setting where you have 2-3 ranged classes with aoe knockback+roots on ~30s CD it happens quite a bit. Marauders have no real way to remain in melee combat with 3 snipers/sorcerers that chain JUST their aoe knockbacks. Now currently this is almost never seen in the current unorganized mess of PVP we have going on right now, but it does in fact happen with some regularity where a marauder is overwhelmed by soft CC like knockback/roots and is unable to even do ANY damage. All the ledges in many of the WZs and the fact that roots are not affected by resolve does not help at all.

 

 

So the next time you are making a post about how Overpowered Marauders are. Please don't over exaggerated about how a marauder is some kind of unstoppable force of nature with no counters, because that just isn't true. Are marauders in need of a few tweaks here and there? I don't know actually because like 99% of the people on these forums I am not in a position to judge something as complex as MMO class balance. But if you must argue for or against marauder nerfs please try to base it on something more substantial than "OMG marauders counter everything and there is an 8 man premade of marauders that beats everything"

 

TLDR- NOPE.

 

Myth #6 - Your thread.

[HurricaneXXIV]

If you keyboard turn, click or back peddle you can't call a Sent or Marauder OP. You deserve to die.

 

All 3 trees of a sniper/gs can kill a marauder with ease. The amount of tears in these threads are starting to be laughable. Group PvP isn't 1v1, it's a group game where you work together. You can't kill a sent/marauder for 6 seconds, so stun and stop tunneling and work his healer for that time. Get over it and move on. I know some people miss the days of being an unkillable turret casting tracer missles, now have fun and learn how to play your class. No one in this game is now unkillable. Sorcs, Gunslingers, Pyros, Shadows, Maruaders and force sweeping Jugs can all top the damage meter.

 

Most of the PvP issues have nothing to do with Marauders or Sents. You shouldn't be able to cast tracer and not move, your healer shouldn't be able to tank melee. Move and learn to use guard/taunt/snares. If you don't you will continue to be steam rolled by groups that play together.

[dunkelhaar]

As a sorc healer I can tell you that there are classes with higher burst than marauders (dps op e.g.) but I guess the total package makes the difference. Btw, I ill get me a court order against any stalker. Stalking is prohibited by law!

[Astarica]

I don't think I have ever lost a true 2on1 against anybody in the level 50 bracket, no matter what character/gear I was using at that time or who the other guy is, and that includes alt wearing only Centurion armor with another guy wearing only Centurion armor against the best geared guy on the server. Some classes are overpowered and some players are really bad, but you still lose 99% of the time in a 1on2 let alone any worse odds. Most of the time you're not really alone and you just didn't see the teammate that was helping you. From a purely mathematical point of view, assuming all the characters just do straight up DPS with no special deffense, you'd have to do 100% more DPS and have 50% more survivality than the average of the 2 to even have a draw in a 1v2. As soon as you throw in CC, you still won't win even with that kind of advantage because the team of 2 can simply hit you with 2 4s stuns on top of any other advantage they might have (taunt, heals, whatever).

[Digtahk]

I have a marauder, and I'll tell people the truth and facts.

 

Myth 1 - Marauders kill people in 1 hit or 1 global cooldown.

False. It takes 3 abilities and 3-4 global cooldown. I'll kill 1 guy and live with still 75% health then proceed to killing his buddy by using 90% accuracy debuff. I should have 25% health left. I will then go for the next one, pop 99% dmg reduction, kill the guy in 6 seconds then regain my health back.

 

Myth 2 - Marauders are squishy

False. With 99% dmg reduction, 20% dmg reduction and stealth, I hardly ever die.

Only people that see red and charge blindly die. But they usually kill their target anyway so it is all good.

 

Myth 3 - Snipers are hard to kill

This is actually very wrong. I use deadly saber, as walking to the sniper. Dude gets me at half health. Then when I'm near, he punts me back. I then use stealth, get near him. Then proceed to own his face.

 

Its good to put a name to the face of the noobs i stomp all day on my poorly geared sniper......You don't even know the difference between Saber Ward and Deadly Saber......Just another tracer spammer trying to pretend they can actually PvP I suspect........

[Haeso]

I kinda find this to be closer to the truth as well, though Snipers do kill my Mara. :c

 

I won't lie, I'm not that great on the Mara yet.

 

Stealth when he aoe knockbacks, run up to him back into melee don't waste leap, if he drops orbital strike on himself, los him, don't fight him inside of it. Don't fight him when he's entrenched + bubbled, los him. It's really quite easy.

[Jakeswed]

sentinel needs to be nerfed, end of story.

 

seriously, when i play my sentinel i'm always amazed at how easy it is to completely wreck people. if you dont do that while playing sent you are not doing it right.

 

remove the healing debuff, its not needed anymore.

nerf the god-mode cd or remove it all together. the 30 sec dmg reduction is already good enough.

 

when the only counter to a class is to stun them or run away you know something is wrong.

[carbocat]

ah the irony.....

 

Its like see alll threads about not nerf opratives all over again!

 

Every mara come to forum and; how to counter a mara, dps is all we have, how to beat us whhaaaa whaaaa whaaaa!

 

This is so funny, try to defend yur OP class...

 

In a wz other day; mara couldnt kill me 1v1 ( me oprative heal) He whisper me; l2p, u suck, OP, u will be nerfed......

 

The irony... again...

[HurricaneXXIV]

 

when the only counter to a class is to stun them or run away you know something is wrong.

 

It's similar to a ret pally in WoW. Why stay and take damage when you can stop them and walk away until they just need one shot to kill them?

[RiChess]

If you keyboard turn, click or back peddle you can't call a Sent or Marauder OP. You deserve to die.

 

All 3 trees of a sniper/gs can kill a marauder with ease. The amount of tears in these threads are starting to be laughable. Group PvP isn't 1v1, it's a group game where you work together. You can't kill a sent/marauder for 6 seconds, so stun and stop tunneling and work his healer for that time. Get over it and move on. I know some people miss the days of being an unkillable turret casting tracer missles, now have fun and learn how to play your class. No one in this game is now unkillable. Sorcs, Gunslingers, Pyros, Shadows, Maruaders and force sweeping Jugs can all top the damage meter.

 

Most of the PvP issues have nothing to do with Marauders or Sents. You shouldn't be able to cast tracer and not move, your healer shouldn't be able to tank melee. Move and learn to use guard/taunt/snares. If you don't you will continue to be steam rolled by groups that play together.

 

I stopped reading when you said a lethality sniper could 1v1 a mara. Do go on, dazzle us with more of your PvP assumptions. Or you could go play the AC, and look back on your post as a sad misunderstanding of AC tree viability in a 1v1 situation. Sure lethality rocks as 1vAll, but 1v1 against any class, particularly pure DPS like mara, it's weak at best.

[TheGreatNeechi]

I stopped reading when you said a lethality sniper could 1v1 a mara. Do go on, dazzle us with more of your PvP assumptions. Or you could go play the AC, and look back on your post as a sad misunderstanding of AC tree viability in a 1v1 situation. Sure lethality rocks as 1vAll, but 1v1 against any class, particularly pure DPS like mara, it's weak at best.

 

Yeah, that one made me giggle.

 

Lethality is far more useful for an Operative, anyway. I really wouldn't want to try it on a Sniper. That... LOL... would suck.

 

Lethality requires you to be mobile. Snipers aren't mobile. An Operative on Lethality would be far more effective than a Sniper on Lethality. Then again, Lethality is useless for PvP anyway. There are some hybrid builds that make good use of some Lethality skills, but none that would benefit a Sniper. Absolutely none.

[Jakeswed]

It's similar to a ret pally in WoW. Why stay and take damage when you can stop them and walk away until they just need one shot to kill them?

 

if sent dmg was on long cds like the ret pally your argument would hold more ground, but as a sent i can always do tons of dmg. so its just not to kite em while their dmg cds is up and then kill them like you would against a ret. lets not forget sent is pretty much unkiteable also.

 

they should add 50percent dmg reduction from the player while god-mode is active.

[HurricaneXXIV]

I've been playing dirty fighting (lethality) since 1.2. It's a pretty even split on our server for the WH/BM Snipers/Gunslingers. It's actually extremly effective at taking out Sents. Leg shot, pulse, Leg shot, kick with flash bangs for the shield. It's very much dot and kite across the melee blender.

 

2/6/32. Give it at try, it's a great spec.

Edited April 27, 2012 by HurricaneXXIV

[Odahviin]

Everything I hear about marauders nowadays is that they are unkillable and uncounterable tanks that 2 shot everything with ravage and are unbeatable in 1v1 and so on. So I feel like I should clear up some of these "myths".

 

Myth #1- Marauders are the best 1v1 class.

 

I'll start by saying. NOPE. In fact marauders actually lose to A LOT of classes 1v1. I will list the classes that will beat marauders given equal gear and skill.

 

Tankassins

DPS operatives

Snipers

Vigilance Juggernauts

 

Those are 4/7 of the other classes that when played correctly will beat a marauder in 1v1. Other classes are either stalemates or in the marauders favor. Most notably Marauders have a very large advantage against Mercenaries and Sorcerers. This is probably the biggest reason marauders are catching so much hate. They counter the two most popular classes played.

 

 

Myth #2 - Marauders are harder to kill than tanks.

 

Again. NOPE. To prove this just have a marauder try to carrying the huttball with 2-3 healers behind him. He will die in <30 seconds from 6+ dps simply because his defenses are very temporary. Now take a Tank Juggernaut with 2-3 healers behind him. He can /dance for hours with 6 dps hitting him(especially if they are marauders who have to deal with their shields unlike most classes)

 

Also god forbid a pure melee class with 0 frontloaded damage and minimal CC isn't easily focus fired and killed for 12 seconds if they burn their 3 min CD defense.

 

 

Myth #3 - Marauders are unstoppable in Group PVP.

 

Surprise. NOPE. To start with marauders get absolutely destroyed by Snipers in group pvp. The fact that their aren't many is a problem, but not a reason to nerf Marauders. Secondly Marauders do exceedingly well against Arsenal Mercs and Sorcerers. The fact is there are A LOT sorcerers and mercs running around and so Marauders tend to do very well against these teams. Marauders also don't handle any kind of Tank well at all in PVP due to the majority of their damage being mitigated by Shields.

 

So basically marauders counter the most popular classes while being countered themselves by the least popular class. Solution? Find a few good snipers to PVP with, or better yet stop playing a sorcerer/trooper and reroll Sniper if you want to win vs marauders easily. It will fix the population imbalance AND help counter marauders. So basically like the other 99% of things complained about on the forums "There are counters to the problem that you should be using instead of trying to nerf everything that has an advantage over you. If you don't know what they are then ask someone who does know.".

 

Myth #4- Marauders are finally topping "Damage Done" in WZs

 

NOP......Actually this isn't a myth. Marauders are now actually competing for the top dps slot along with classes like Sorcerers/Pyrotechs/Snipers. I don't really see how this is a problem though. 99% of marauders rolled the class because they wanted to do the most damage in the game. They decided it was worth sacrificing the option to ever tank, or to heal, or to have gaurd/taunt, or to have a pull/knockback, or having good CC, or to have any ranged abilities. So basically you have a class that sacrifices basically EVERYTHING just to have top spot for damage dealing. So now that they actually are competing for that top spot people are complaining about it?

Myth #5- Marauders are unkiteable.

 

In a 1v1 battle I will agree that it is very difficult to impossible for most classes to kite a well played marauder for very long and this is fine(However a hybrid Sorc or Sniper can do a VERY good job of kiting 1v1). However in a group setting where you have 2-3 ranged classes with aoe knockback+roots on ~30s CD it happens quite a bit. Marauders have no real way to remain in melee combat with 3 snipers/sorcerers that chain JUST their aoe knockbacks. Now currently this is almost never seen in the current unorganized mess of PVP we have going on right now, but it does in fact happen with some regularity where a marauder is overwhelmed by soft CC like knockback/roots and is unable to even do ANY damage. All the ledges in many of the WZs and the fact that roots are not affected by resolve does not help at all.

 

 

So the next time you are making a post about how Overpowered Marauders are. Please don't over exaggerated about how a marauder is some kind of unstoppable force of nature with no counters, because that just isn't true. Are marauders in need of a few tweaks here and there? I don't know actually because like 99% of the people on these forums I am not in a position to judge something as complex as MMO class balance. But if you must argue for or against marauder nerfs please try to base it on something more substantial than "OMG marauders counter everything and there is an 8 man premade of marauders that beats everything"

 

TLDR- NOPE.

 

The problem is it's a highly visible AC with two glowsitcks flashing in your face you don't notice the snipers focusing you or other range dmg.

 

Alot of times when my PT dies to a mara / sent I check the log and see that I was the target of 3 players not just the melee leaping around in front of me.

[Dmasterr]

Marauder has disadvantages only for bad players playing marauders.

 

A good player playing marauder will never have a problem with anything, and this was true pre 1.2 as well .

[RiChess]

I've been playing dirty fighting (lethality) since 1.2. It's a pretty even split on our server for the WH/BM Snipers/Gunslingers. It's actually extremly effective at taking out Sents. Leg shot, pulse, Leg shot, kick with flash bangs for the shield. It's very much dot and kite across the melee blender.

 

2/6/32. Give it at try, it's a great spec.

 

That's a running for your life sketchy play style, that would take much longer to get the kill than normal. You're pretty much guaranteed to have another on you before you're done. Plus that all but removes cull as an option. So you're stuck with a 21sec dart, and an 18sec nade that won't even take half his health combined? All he needs is split second break between leg shots and you're done for. Unless he doesn't snare and is totally incompetent and is playing carnage. I'd like to see you kite an anni spec with the reduced FL CD and DoTs of his own. Fooey I say, fooey!

Edited April 27, 2012 by RiChess

[Nyjin]

I agree with the OP on almost everything.

 

However, I will list the order that I (personally) have trouble with the four classes described:

 

1a. Operative/Scoundrel (If he gets the jump on me, I'm basically screwed if I don't have all my CDs. With CDs, I have a small chance of winning/surviving).

 

1b. Sniper/Gunslinger (The sniper will peck at me from afar...I can't leap to him...he has roots...he has comparable DPS...and a dodge. Unless I'm Focus-specced, it'll be tough. If we're on even footing, I'd say the match-up is a 70-30 ratio in favor of the sniper).

 

2. Tank-sin (They can DPS pretty much as well as me. Survive better than me. And Stealth. That's fun, right?)

 

3. Vigilance Guard (Tough, but not a game-breaker. 60-40 in favor of the Marauder, in my opinion.)

 

I used Fighting-game match-ups, because I play fighting-games too...

 

Yep, that's about it.

[FerrixWGW]

Our CD pool is pretty sweet, but it hasn't changed, it gets us out of a bind no problem, but what would you expect from a class that is supposed to be tagging those healers and drawing attention to ourselves? I don't spec the new Force Fade...base is enough for what I use it for. 1v1 the CDs are godly, especially if they are all up. The only class I really have any trouble with is a tank assassin in equal gear or higher, snipers 1v1 aren't that big of a deal, less they see me before I see them and get in a really good position. I think the biggest gripe probably comes from the huge master strike buff, 15% more damage with a skill on the first tier to buff it up even more (8% i think), now it can't be interrupted as a base ability...(but here is a tip - stun us or knock us back and we stop the strike ) ---oh wait you panicked and blew all your CC/knockbacks as soon as i used force leap...I fight Marauders too, 1v1 its like a chess match, fun stuff actually...CC or Force Fade against Ravage, and usually Force Stasis the Undying Rage. MS does truly melt non-heavy armored classes.

 

Add the changes to expertise, and yeah it seems like we've had this huge buff, but in all actuality expertise has changed things more than any changes BW did to our class. Damage to healing buff from expertise is almost 2-1 now, damage to damage reduction is close to 4/3. Our CDs are the same as before, and no one really cried OP OP OP till expertise changed....

 

We're a pure DPS class and with the expertise changes, DPS is back in the game.

[RiChess]

I agree with the OP on almost everything.

 

However, I will list the order that I (personally) have trouble with the four classes described:

 

1a. Operative/Scoundrel (If he gets the jump on me, I'm basically screwed if I don't have all my CDs. With CDs, I have a small chance of winning/surviving).

 

1b. Sniper/Gunslinger (The sniper will peck at me from afar...I can't leap to him...he has roots...he has comparable DPS...and a dodge. Unless I'm Focus-specced, it'll be tough. If we're on even footing, I'd say the match-up is a 70-30 ratio in favor of the sniper).

 

2. Tank-sin (They can DPS pretty much as well as me. Survive better than me. And Stealth. That's fun, right?)

 

3. Vigilance Guard (Tough, but not a game-breaker. 60-40 in favor of the Marauder, in my opinion.)

 

I used Fighting-game match-ups, because I play fighting-games too...

 

Yep, that's about it.

 

Tank sin DPS is nowhere near that of a mara, it's the fact that they're... you know... tanks? Outlasting you for the kill != same or better DPS.

[DweezillKagemand]

Kids are still crying about Operative?

 

Its only been nerfed like 8 times

[TheGreatNeechi]

Kids are still crying about Operative?

 

Its only been nerfed like 8 times

 

Apparently so.

 

No matter for me. I abandoned Concealment when the 1.2 changes were announced. I went Medicine. I'm now one of the most sought after healers on my server for Operations and Flash Points. In PvP I have to be careful who I heal and when I heal. I used to top the healing charts, but after that they basically kill me on sight. So, I heal from as far away as I can, which works sometimes, and other times just means I get attacked far from the group.

 

Oh well. Can't win them all, right?

[Nyjin]

Tank sin DPS is nowhere near that of a mara, it's the fact that they're... you know... tanks? Outlasting you for the kill != same or better DPS.

 

Right. Sorry. Still doesn't change the fact that they're killing me while I'm NOT killing them.