Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[Mithosi]

Not needed: make the progression for PvP the same(ish) as PvE, that way Raid PvE'ers couldn't come in and roll everyone, because PvP would have the same type(ish) gear. I know, it would make PvP about skill:eek:

 

If expertise was really needed and game breaking, then it would be in pre-50 PvP as well.

 

 

Agreed, Not Needed! It is sad when 1-49 War Zones tend to be more fun and challenging rather than a lopsided smash fest like 50 pvp can be. Maybe ranked can fix this but i have to ask, what about open world PVP? If you have a full raid of columi geared players taking a world boss, and 6 War Heros come in from the opposing faction they can completely wipe the group. If you want to encourage open world pvp of any sort then expertise needs to be removed.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Mithosi

[SWImara]

No, it is not. Read my post just above yours. It's really a very simple fix. Almost, dare I say, OBVIOUS. But it's obvious if Bioware's methods are in the best interest of the players. But, they're not. They're in the best interest of their bank account. That's all it comes down to, yet you all have convinced yourselves that it's necessary in the interest of some phantom "balance" issue.

Just to be clear I don't really disagree with you, but what you're arguing/suggesting is pretty much Candyland. What we have been handed is not the game you've envisioned, stats aren't capped at a reasonable amount and players are expected to grind through one level of gear after another. This is the game we are playing, is it ideal? Maybe, maybe not. We aren't playing an oldschool sandbox game, in games like SWTOR gear is the driving force of character progression.

 

Would I prefer to see a system similar to the one you've presented... of course... Even among modern themepark MMOs some have tried that sort of system only to convert away from it. LotRO once had a really interesting and flexible gear system where there really weren't set in stone "best in slot" items. The gear cap was relatively easy to hit so people mixed and matched their gear to do whatever specific thing they thought was of value. All of this was removed when they dropped stat caps and the game essentially turned into one more gear grind. This is unfortunately the trend, and in part that trend is fueled by the ridiculous demands of the current MMO player.

 

Side note: LoTRO now has expertise, its almost an expected result when a game switches to the gear grind model.

 

When people demand "more" end game they're not demanding more diverse and flat "options", they are demanding progression, new tiers that make the old tier irrelevant and so on. This makes it frankly a nightmare to balance the PvP game while continuing to offer "progression" in the PvE game.

 

TLDR: I like the idea you presented, however we're not going to get that. I'd rather the expertise system than a gear grind without PvE/PvP gear being separated. I'd love the game you're imagining, but we aren't playing that game.

Edited May 2, 2012 by SWImara

[Genocidalx]

Just to be clear I don't really disagree with you, but what you're arguing/suggesting is pretty much Candyland. What we have been handed is not the game you've envisioned, stats aren't capped at a reasonable amount and players are expected to grind through one level of gear after another. This is the game we are playing, is it ideal? Maybe, maybe not. We aren't playing an oldschool sandbox game, in games like SWTOR gear is the driving force of character progression.

 

Would I prefer to see a system similar to the one you've presented... of course... Even among modern themepark MMOs some have tried that sort of system only to convert away from it. LotRO once had a really interesting and flexible gear system where there really weren't set in stone "best in slot" items. The gear cap was relatively easy to hit so people mixed and matched their gear to do whatever specific thing they thought was of value. All of this was removed when they dropped stat caps and the game essentially turned into one more gear grind. This is unfortunately the trend, and in part that trend is fueled by the ridiculous demands of the current MMO player.

 

Side note: LoTRO now has expertise, its almost an expected result when a game switches to the gear grind model.

 

When people demand "more" end game they're not demanding more diverse and flat "options", they are demanding progression, new tiers that make the old tier irrelevant and so on. This makes it frankly a nightmare to balance the PvP game while continuing to offer "progression" in the PvE game.

 

TLDR: I like the idea you presented, however we're not going to get that. I'd rather the expertise system than a gear grind without PvE/PvP gear being separated. I'd love the game you're imagining, but we aren't playing that game.

 

Oh no doubt. That's the reason why I won't be playing after my free month is up. I'm not sure I would continue to play even if my imagined system were implemented, but I think I might. I don't play it much as it is. I'm realistic. I know it's not happening and I know the reasons why. Ergo, I know in 30 days SWTOR and I part ways forever. It will probably survive, and perhaps thrive despite me. But I can't, in good conscience or ethics, on principle, support such a game, because in doing so I validate the greed (and lack of imagination) behind it.

[Drudenfusz]

The moment we can get PvP gear that has the same stats like the PvE Gear (maybe just with different set bonuses) it wouldn't be needed any more... but I think some PvE players would then complain about it, because they want to feel special with the stats on their gear.

[Akabeth]

Strictly from a PvP standpoint, I don't think expertise has a helpful role. It's a lazy mechanic that:

• Forces players to split their time between two realms of game play since OWPvP became irrelevant and not encouraged -- which also [needlessly] extend time investment at the gear treadmill

• Compensates for PvE tuning based on metrics so that viable specs perform within reasonable limits in PvP environments (expected OOC interims vs. active & passive mitigation cooldowns, burst heal vs. sustained inc dps, guard & taunts/sec vs. focused fire, etc.)

 

SWTOR was made with the casual player in mind therefore there's no need for a chasm between those who prefer to enjoy the PvE content and others who prefer PvP encounters. Based on my own observations I have models of how I think PvP gear 'progression' ought to work. But if 1.0 - 1.2.x has made anything adamant, this game was never meant for a PvPer.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Akabeth

[Jadescythe]

Oh no doubt. That's the reason why I won't be playing after my free month is up. I'm not sure I would continue to play even if my imagined system were implemented, but I think I might. I don't play it much as it is. I'm realistic. I know it's not happening and I know the reasons why. Ergo, I know in 30 days SWTOR and I part ways forever. It will probably survive, and perhaps thrive despite me. But I can't, in good conscience or ethics, on principle, support such a game, because in doing so I validate the greed (and lack of imagination) behind it.

 

No offense dude, I'm really not trying to be unproductive, but if you don't plan on playing anymore and you don't even know if you're own suggestion would make you play, then why are you even posting on the forums? The ONLY reason to PVP is because it's enjoyable. The gear progression gives you something to shoot for, but it will ultimately be cross-server ranked WZs that will keep people playing. If you don't like the current system, at least make a suggestion that you are willing to stand behind or else that suggestion becomes worthless. If this setup isn't working for you then I can understand that and wish you luck in whatever game you move on to.

[Genocidalx]

No offense dude, I'm really not trying to be unproductive, but if you don't plan on playing anymore and you don't even know if you're own suggestion would make you play, then why are you even posting on the forums? The ONLY reason to PVP is because it's enjoyable. The gear progression gives you something to shoot for, but it will ultimately be cross-server ranked WZs that will keep people playing. If you don't like the current system, at least make a suggestion that you are willing to stand behind or else that suggestion becomes worthless. If this setup isn't working for you then I can understand that and wish you luck in whatever game you move on to.

 

Look, don't be mad because I don't like your game. I made productive suggestions to improve the game, and I was even able enough to do it objectively and remove myself from it. I shall move on. But, before I do, I was offering a helpful suggestion so SWTOR doesn't become merely another title in the bin of memory that drove my favorite genre into copycat stagnation. If they want a game that will be memorable and stand the test of time, then they have to exhibit the courage to walk in uncharted places. I think my input could be valuable to them, depending on their purpose.

 

My input was or could be productive, whereas your response was not. And, by virtue, this response is not. So, in the interest of keeping this thread on topic, there's no reason to express your displeasure because a game you like isn't for me. I don't know why it's so important to you that I like the game, anyway. I'm just a nameless, faceless thing giving some final feedback. It shouldn't impact your identity whatsoever. If you like the game, keep playing it and let that be enough.

 

I only wrote what I did because it was once a game I WANTED to like.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Genocidalx

[_droider_]

Not needed: make the progression for PvP the same(ish) as PvE, that way Raid PvE'ers couldn't come in and roll everyone, because PvP would have the same type(ish) gear. I know, it would make PvP about skill:eek:

 

If expertise was really needed and game breaking, then it would be in pre-50 PvP as well.

 

10-49 PVP is casual, while you run class quests. Putting exp in the gear would put a significant portion of players (questers vs PVP-to50'rs) at a disadvantage, assuming only WZ comm gear has exp.

 

On topic: The separation is needed...period.

 

You cannot have the best of both worlds by only participating in one of them. To be effective in PVP you have to progress through PVP; same goes for PVE. Yes I know you hardcore pvp'rs hate the word 'progression' but there needs to be something to aspire to besides fancy duds; pure enjoyment of PVP'n isn't enough for most people: however, there's plenty of non-MMO games out there that are PVP with no progression if that's what you want.

 

As a business, progression keeps the money flowing...make sure you understand and accept the fact that this will always be a factor.

[Jadescythe]

How would this solve anything? People with the best gear would still roll people who dont have it.

 

And you think the PvE crowd wants PvP'ers who have the same gear as them?

 

The best PvE gear should come from PvE

 

The best PvP gear should come from PvP.

 

^^^^ This x100

 

The only legitimate arguement I have heard against expertise is that it prevents people who focus on PVE from competing in PVP. This is just a personal preference for those who don't want to get 2 sets of gear. There is no factual arguement for or against this idea, it is simply based on opinion. I understand that many people don't want to have to grind for 2 sets; the idea makes sense to me. I just feel the game is more fun if PVE and PVP are separate and I have 2 different game types in one.The other main arguement seems to be that expertise makes the gap too big between players, which would be the exact same as if we just had PVE gear that was higher tiered. If you walk into a HM op in tionese gear, you're going to have problems, just like you will walking into a WZ in tionese gear. This gap between gear, as I've stated previously, is much smaller with the implementation of recruit gear which anyone who has done anything in the game can buy. BM and WH gear no longer requires expertise so it is accessible much earlier as well. Expertise simply separates PVE and PVP gear.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Strictly from a PvP standpoint, I don't think expertise has a helpful role. It's a lazy mechanic that:

• Forces players to split their time between two realms of game play since OWPvP became irrelevant and not encouraged -- which also [needlessly] extend time investment at the gear treadmill

• Compensates for PvE tuning based on metrics so that viable specs perform within reasonable limits in PvP environments (expected OOC interims vs. active & passive mitigation cooldowns, burst heal vs. sustained inc dps, guard & taunts/sec vs. focused fire, etc.)

 

SWTOR was made with the casual player in mind therefore there's no need for a chasm between those who prefer to enjoy the PvE content and others who prefer PvP encounters. Based on my own observations and I have models of how I think PvP gear 'progression' ought to work. But if 1.0 - 1.2.x has made anything adamant, this game was never meant for a PvPer.

 

I too have some ideas in mind (from I guess what would be a casual stand point) and would love to hear your ideas. I'm starting to wonder how many people are having -roughly- the same idea, and if perhaps with enough people thinking the same way, Dev's will listen. If you could provide a general formula/model that would be awesome.

 

Agreed, Not Needed! It is sad when 1-49 War Zones tend to be more fun and challenging rather than a lopsided smash fest like 50 pvp can be. Maybe ranked can fix this but i have to ask, what about open world PVP? If you have a full raid of columi geared players taking a world boss, and 6 War Heros come in from the opposing faction they can completely wipe the group. If you want to encourage open world pvp of any sort then expertise needs to be removed.

 

Agreed here. Though 11-49 is lopsided by the difference in people's abilities (49 has more than a 12) it is over all generally more fun, and the stakes are lower. A loss in the 1-49 doesn't mean the person you fight next time is stronger.

 

The other example only works on a PvP server, but I would point out if/when Ilum goes PvPvE, how are we gonna decided what gear to wear? While WH is viable in most pve content, it isn't optimal. And if you're entering with some PvE gear to offset the PvE part of Ilum's PvPvE, then anyone in full PvP gear is going to wreck you.

[DarthKhaos]

Strictly from a PvP standpoint, I don't think expertise has a helpful role. It's a lazy mechanic that:

• Forces players to split their time between two realms of game play since OWPvP became irrelevant and not encouraged -- which also [needlessly] extend time investment at the gear treadmill

• Compensates for PvE tuning based on metrics so that viable specs perform within reasonable limits in PvP environments (expected OOC interims vs. active & passive mitigation cooldowns, burst heal vs. sustained inc dps, guard & taunts/sec vs. focused fire, etc.)

 

SWTOR was made with the casual player in mind therefore there's no need for a chasm between those who prefer to enjoy the PvE content and others who prefer PvP encounters. Based on my own observations and I have models of how I think PvP gear 'progression' ought to work. But if 1.0 - 1.2.x has made anything adamant, this game was never meant for a PvPer.

Ok I'll bite. So let's say OWPvP was encouraged. How much comms/valor will be awarded for a kill or quest? Since there will NOT be a separate of PvP & PvE gear AND the best gear can be achieved from either endeavor how will you be gaining said PvP gear? How will you match the progression with PvE and how will you ensure PvP players not facing off with other players with vastly higher gear? It wouldn't do to have PvE progression buffered so they can actually overcome the encounter and not the case in PvP.

 

Will there be points where players can stop and come back another day to continue where they left off? How about stopping to get the team filled back up when someone drops? How you guys deal with afk players? You know someone to constantly runs into a corner and stays there for the entire raid. I wonder I wonder I wonder...

[Doomsdaycomes]

^^^^ This x100

 

The only legitimate arguement I have heard against expertise is that it prevents people who focus on PVE from competing in PVP. This is just a personal preference for those who don't want to get 2 sets of gear. There is no factual arguement for or against this idea, it is simply based on opinion. I understand that many people don't want to have to grind for 2 sets; the idea makes sense to me. I just feel the game is more fun if PVE and PVP are separate and I have 2 different game types in one.The other main arguement seems to be that expertise makes the gap too big between players, which would be the exact same as if we just had PVE gear that was higher tiered. If you walk into a HM op in tionese gear, you're going to have problems, just like you will walking into a WZ in tionese gear. This gap between gear, as I've stated previously, is much smaller with the implementation of recruit gear which anyone who has done anything in the game can buy. BM and WH gear no longer requires expertise so it is accessible much earlier as well. Expertise simply separates PVE and PVP gear.

 

Think about the long run, if pvp and pve are seperate.

 

The game as X amount of players. If pve and pvp are completely seperated, Y amount will only PvP, and Z amount will only PvE. The overlap of Y and Z will be small, because people will either (1) not have enough time to focus on two sets. (2) Find breaking into one from the other too difficult.

 

If PvP is the -only- way to get pvp viable gear, then as the game progresses new 50's will have a harder time entering into PvP. Older 50's will block them with a gear gap. Soon there will be more Older 50's leaving (Get bored, move to a new game, etc...) then New 50's entering. PvP population will decrease, your queue's will lengthen, and even with Cross Server Wz's you will see more and more of the same people.

 

If PvP viable gear is available through other avenue's (and yes, this would require making sure pve and pvp gear progress in roughly the same time) then The overlap of Y and Z players will broaden, and new 50's will find if they can not beat someone from a gear gap, there is an alternative to progression.

 

Dividing a community kills it.

[Genocidalx]

Ok I'll bite. So let's say OWPvP was encouraged. How much comms/valor will be awarded for a kill or quest? Since there will NOT be a separate of PvP & PvE gear AND the best gear can be achieved from either endeavor how will you be gaining said PvP gear? How will you match the progression with PvE and how will you ensure PvP players not facing off with other players with vastly higher gear? It wouldn't do to have PvE progression buffered so they can actually overcome the encounter and not the case in PvP.

 

Will there be points where players can stop and come back another day to continue where they left off? How about stopping to get the team filled back up when someone drops? How you guys deal with afk players? You know someone to constantly runs into a corner and stays there for the entire raid. I wonder I wonder I wonder...

 

I've played 3 characters to valor rank 60+, one is 85. I've never noticed but maybe 2 AFKers in my matches. And they eventually joined in. They could have been answering a phone, getting a drink, using the bathroom, or dealing with a real life issue momentarily. I think there's a culture exaggerating the AFK issues or, less likely, my server is just exceptionally awesome.

 

On the other hand I've noticed countless players who were just so horrible that I wished they'd go AFK because they were actively detrimental to the game.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Genocidalx

[Jadescythe]

Think about the long run, if pvp and pve are seperate.

 

The game as X amount of players. If pve and pvp are completely seperated, Y amount will only PvP, and Z amount will only PvE. The overlap of Y and Z will be small, because people will either (1) not have enough time to focus on two sets. (2) Find breaking into one from the other too difficult.

 

If PvP is the -only- way to get pvp viable gear, then as the game progresses new 50's will have a harder time entering into PvP. Older 50's will block them with a gear gap. Soon there will be more Older 50's leaving (Get bored, move to a new game, etc...) then New 50's entering. PvP population will decrease, your queue's will lengthen, and even with Cross Server Wz's you will see more and more of the same people.

 

If PvP viable gear is available through other avenue's (and yes, this would require making sure pve and pvp gear progress in roughly the same time) then The overlap of Y and Z players will broaden, and new 50's will find if they can not beat someone from a gear gap, there is an alternative to progression.

 

Dividing a community kills it.

 

This is a valid point, which the devs already started addressing. People with the top tier gear don't love the idea, but when new gear comes out, the lower level stuff becomes much easier to get. Recruit gear is available to anyone and getting to BM now is about 1,000 times faster than trying to get comms in bags. When new stuff comes out as you are saying, they will do the same thing with the newer levels of gear. So the climb to the second best gear is easy and the climb to the top takes relatively more time. Honestly, the difference right now between WH and BM gear is ridiculously small to the point of almost not being worth the effort. Also keep in mind that ranked matches will allow for more competitive games both skill and gear wise. So the less geared players will be with less geared or less capable players. As for needing overlap, I think that cross-server WZs will provide plenty of people regardless of separation when you have a pool of thousands to pull from at a given time.

[VagrantWolf]

Long thread....

 

My Vote: 'It is Needed'

 

Reasoning: PVP for PVP gear. PVE for PVE gear. period.

[Doomsdaycomes]

This is a valid point, which the devs already started addressing. People with the top tier gear don't love the idea, but when new gear comes out, the lower level stuff becomes much easier to get. Recruit gear is available to anyone and getting to BM now is about 1,000 times faster than trying to get comms in bags. When new stuff comes out as you are saying, they will do the same thing with the newer levels of gear. So the climb to the second best gear is easy and the climb to the top takes relatively more time. Honestly, the difference right now between WH and BM gear is ridiculously small to the point of almost not being worth the effort.

 

The only problem with this is, whether the difference between the two is small or not, there is a difference. If two groups of equal skill come together, the one with any advantage will win. I know that there needs to be progression, I'm not advocating against it. But let's consider this scenario.

 

Two sides are pvp'ing against each other. When they first clash, one side (even if their both equal) has to win. When they win, their strength increases 1 unit (any unit). Their opponent only increases by .5 of a unit. So when they clash again, now the side with 1 unit has and advantage, and advances to 2 units. The Loser only hits advances .5, to 1. This cycle continues until the first side is exponentially stronger than the other. This is a trend that has been seen on all servers, and I believe even with cross server pvp, this trend will continue.

 

The problem lies in that the weaker side progresses slower than the stronger one, and can not use any alternative way to progress. If an alternative did exist, this is a repeating cycle that eventually destroys the weaker sides will to pvp.

 

Also keep in mind that ranked matches will allow for more competitive games both skill and gear wise. So the less geared players will be with less geared or less capable players. As for needing overlap, I think that cross-server WZs will provide plenty of people regardless of separation when you have a pool of thousands to pull from at a given time.

 

I am looking forward to ranked wz's, but this will divide the community pvp community in half once more. I wonder how many pvp'ers will actually enter ranked warzones. Time will tell on this one, but I believe the above problem will continue if no alternative method is created for a loser to obtian better gear -without- making his/her opponent stronger in the process.

[RocNessMonster]

It's not needed. Really expertise is an accountant's decision. Forces players to grind two paths instead of one. Maybe they should add a stat just for operations, separate from solo or flashpoint gear. How about a stat for solo farming that boost credit/drop rates?

 

If anything skilled players should take a handicap, like in a game of golf, so the game remains interesting between players of different skill levels.

Edited May 2, 2012 by RocNessMonster

[Doomsdaycomes]

It's not needed. Really expertise is an accountant's decision. Forces players to grind two paths instead of one. Maybe they should add a stat just for operations, separate from solo or flashpoint gear. How about a stat for solo farming that boost credit/drop rates?

 

(Though Expertise is also a means to balance pvp and pve damages, healing, etc...)

 

An excellent point. If one "side" of the content get's it's own super-special-awesome-unique-uber-useful stat, then why don't the other "sides" get one too? PvP'ers aren't -that- special. (I am one, and I know I'm not a unique snowflake.)

[Jadescythe]

It's not needed. Really expertise is an accountant's decision. Forces players to grind two paths instead of one. Maybe they should add a stat just for operations, separate from solo or flashpoint gear. How about a stat for solo farming that boost credit/drop rates?

 

If anything skilled players should take a handicap, like in a game of golf, so the game remains interesting between players of different skill levels.

 

I'm not sure I can agree with making good players worse simply to make bad players better. On another note, consider that PVE gear stats are already significantly higher than PVP gear. This is why people were wearing Rakata gear into WZs prior to 1.2 launching. Now that expertise has been made more significant, recruit PVP gear is better in a WZ than rakata gear. I'm taking 20-40 points lost in endurance and willpower to wear PVP gear in WZs instead of PVE gear for expertise. In essence, PVE does have their own "special" stat because the gear is just better in general. Otherwise, you're exactly right that the idea is to get 2 sets of gear. Not sure how that is an accountant's decision, but why shouldn't you have to complete the content to get the gear? I don't understand the reasoning behind doing A to get gear so you can do B. Making the content accessible to everyone is good to a point, but then what is holding them back from allowing under 50s into end game content? Wouldn't that allow people who don't have enough time to level to 50 quickly to participate? They could just use the principal behind bolstering in PVE as well. The idea of the grind is that you're working towards something to make the game more rewarding; it gives you something to work for.

[Jadescythe]

The only problem with this is, whether the difference between the two is small or not, there is a difference. If two groups of equal skill come together, the one with any advantage will win. I know that there needs to be progression, I'm not advocating against it. But let's consider this scenario.

 

Two sides are pvp'ing against each other. When they first clash, one side (even if their both equal) has to win. When they win, their strength increases 1 unit (any unit). Their opponent only increases by .5 of a unit. So when they clash again, now the side with 1 unit has and advantage, and advances to 2 units. The Loser only hits advances .5, to 1. This cycle continues until the first side is exponentially stronger than the other. This is a trend that has been seen on all servers, and I believe even with cross server pvp, this trend will continue.

 

The problem lies in that the weaker side progresses slower than the stronger one, and can not use any alternative way to progress. If an alternative did exist, this is a repeating cycle that eventually destroys the weaker sides will to pvp.

 

 

 

I am looking forward to ranked wz's, but this will divide the community pvp community in half once more. I wonder how many pvp'ers will actually enter ranked warzones. Time will tell on this one, but I believe the above problem will continue if no alternative method is created for a loser to obtian better gear -without- making his/her opponent stronger in the process.

 

Ultimately, everyone is going to get the top gear if they play long enough for it. It's not like everyone else doesn't have to go through the grind to get the gear. I admit the system isn't perfect and you're right, more wins will mean getting gear faster. The highest quality players will still get the top tier gear and be on equal footing. There is a cap to how much gear you can get and once you're there everyone is on equal ground. This means that the best players will still win the WZ. The only difference is that the people who don't frequently do PVP won't get gear faster and will have a disadvantage against an equal player (although I hope a frequent PVPer would be significantly better than their PVE counterpart at PVP).

 

I agree with the points that you are making for the most part, I simply think they are overshadowed by the need to separate PVE and PVP. I like to do both and can honestly say that I would be extremely unhappy with being able to complete HM ops in full PVP gear. I would have no reason to run the content nearly as often because I would already be geared, it would simply be one or two runs a week for fun. PVP has built in replayability because it is always different with live people, PVE will get extremely old if you can beat the content your first time (with wipes still of course) through on the harder difficulties. I think a lot of the focus in this thread has been on PVP needing to be separate from PVE, but PVE also needs to be separate from PVP for its own reasons.

[DarthKhaos]

Think about the long run, if pvp and pve are seperate.

 

The game as X amount of players. If pve and pvp are completely seperated, Y amount will only PvP, and Z amount will only PvE. The overlap of Y and Z will be small, because people will either (1) not have enough time to focus on two sets. (2) Find breaking into one from the other too difficult.

 

If PvP is the -only- way to get pvp viable gear, then as the game progresses new 50's will have a harder time entering into PvP. Older 50's will block them with a gear gap. Soon there will be more Older 50's leaving (Get bored, move to a new game, etc...) then New 50's entering. PvP population will decrease, your queue's will lengthen, and even with Cross Server Wz's you will see more and more of the same people.

 

If PvP viable gear is available through other avenue's (and yes, this would require making sure pve and pvp gear progress in roughly the same time) then The overlap of Y and Z players will broaden, and new 50's will find if they can not beat someone from a gear gap, there is an alternative to progression.

 

Dividing a community kills it.

Have you played an MMO they always adjust how easy it is to get the previous "super gear" as bigger better gear becomes available. The grind will be about the same later.

 

I've played 3 characters to valor rank 60+, one is 85. I've never noticed but maybe 2 AFKers in my matches. And they eventually joined in. They could have been answering a phone, getting a drink, using the bathroom, or dealing with a real life issue momentarily. I think there's a culture exaggerating the AFK issues or, less likely, my server is just exceptionally awesome.

 

On the other hand I've noticed countless players who were just so horrible that I wished they'd go AFK because they were actively detrimental to the game.

Different experiences. I've had to call in customer support to deal with mine. thankfully they were good about dealing with them. No they didn't join in later because they were botting. I wished I had the pull ally on my Sorc to pull it off it's path to get out the force field and trap the fool in the starting area to be booted from the warzone.

[Doomsdaycomes]

Ultimately, everyone is going to get the top gear if they play long enough for it. It's not like everyone else doesn't have to go through the grind to get the gear. I admit the system isn't perfect and you're right, more wins will mean getting gear faster. The highest quality players will still get the top tier gear and be on equal footing. There is a cap to how much gear you can get and once you're there everyone is on equal ground. This means that the best players will still win the WZ. The only difference is that the people who don't frequently do PVP won't get gear faster and will have a disadvantage against an equal player (although I hope a frequent PVPer would be significantly better than their PVE counterpart at PVP).

 

I agree with the points that you are making for the most part, I simply think they are overshadowed by the need to separate PVE and PVP. I like to do both and can honestly say that I would be extremely unhappy with being able to complete HM ops in full PVP gear. I would have no reason to run the content nearly as often because I would already be geared, it would simply be one or two runs a week for fun. PVP has built in replayability because it is always different with live people, PVE will get extremely old if you can beat the content your first time (with wipes still of course) through on the harder difficulties. I think a lot of the focus in this thread has been on PVP needing to be separate from PVE, but PVE also needs to be separate from PVP for its own reasons.

 

I suppose I come from the opposite end of the spectrum, where PvE is replayable over and over if it's working towards a goal (Like dailies). One of my first MMO's, all high level gear came from crafting using materials dropped from bosses. Depending on drops, you could end up running the same boss 20+ times. At some point it did get boring (which is why a nice pvp break without a grind for pvp gear would be nice) but once completed, you moved onto the next boss. Usually the -high- came from downing a boss faster, and seeing how many of the mats dropped. Seeing a gold material in the pile was like O.o woot!

 

To me, PvP would be a way to pass the time when pve gets a little dull, but it's not exactly easy (or fun) to do that if you must first set aside all your work in building "pve" gear to then grind pvp.

 

(I will say this though. Thank you for being reasonable and decent to talk to. It's super annoying to be talking to someone and have the conversation drop into who can say "scrub" the most.)

[Doomsdaycomes]

Have you played an MMO they always adjust how easy it is to get the previous "super gear" as bigger better gear becomes available. The grind will be about the same later..

 

Even with the adjustment, the point stands. As newer gear comes in, those starting higher on the totem pole will obtain it faster then fresh 50's because they will win more even in the -second best- gear that their becomes. Once more the cycle repeats. I'll admit this is my opinion, but without an alternative means to "bridge" a gear gap, the pvp player pool will decline as people become frustrated and stop trying as a fresh 50.

[Angel_of_Cain]

If you think the pre 50 bracket is balanced I weep for you.

.

 

I never said it was balanced, i mearly stated that expertise is not in 10-49 PvP. and if expertise is so important to the PvP game mechanices, why is it not in that bracket as well? I never once mentioned that pre-50 PvP is balanced.

[Jadescythe]

I suppose I come from the opposite end of the spectrum, where PvE is replayable over and over if it's working towards a goal (Like dailies). One of my first MMO's, all high level gear came from crafting using materials dropped from bosses. Depending on drops, you could end up running the same boss 20+ times. At some point it did get boring (which is why a nice pvp break without a grind for pvp gear would be nice) but once completed, you moved onto the next boss. Usually the -high- came from downing a boss faster, and seeing how many of the mats dropped. Seeing a gold material in the pile was like O.o woot!

 

To me, PvP would be a way to pass the time when pve gets a little dull, but it's not exactly easy (or fun) to do that if you must first set aside all your work in building "pve" gear to then grind pvp.

 

(I will say this though. Thank you for being reasonable and decent to talk to. It's super annoying to be talking to someone and have the conversation drop into who can say "scrub" the most.)

 

I completely agree that the fun of PVE is running the content to gain something, which is why I really don't want it to be ruined because of the good PVP gear I have. Even as it is my BM/WH stuff is better than Tionese and Columni in terms of stats and I think that needs to be changed some to make it worth obtaining (I only have a Tionese set because you get the comms and crystals for it no matter what). I think that PVP will get separated into competitive and fun when we get ranked WZs coming out and that's where the PVE group will be able to find an enjoyable detour. I'll admit that I'm not super competitive, but I do play a lot, so I may be biased in that I can do the grind to get gear without a problem. I have 4 toons at 50 right now, but don't feel that I'm not able to do content in PVE or PVP on any of them, even without top gear (my main is the only one with any PVP gear). I'm not topping the charts by any means, but can be competitive and help my team. I just feel that in order to be the best, you should have a combination of skill and effort in what you are doing. In otherwords, I want my PVP to be like my PVE.

 

(I appreciate your attitude and response as well, it helps open my own mind to new ideas.)