Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[DarthKhaos]

I have a question if you have Bolster give Expertise how would gear progression work? Will everyone get the same gear at the same rate for both PvP & PvE? If so how long is acceptable for both PvP & PvE to allow a fresh level 50 not to constantly get race rolled by those wearing the best gear or even the level above gear for an extended period of time? Will the difference in level of gear be too large that even if you upgrade your gear you are still getting face rolled?

 

I'm still waiting to get an answer to this question.

[netskink]

Not needed, provided both progression paths take a similar amount of time to gear up to similar levels.

 

Right on. If pvp rewarded the same gear as pve given the same amount of time, you would only need one set. But to ensure no one ever wins the game, they include two sets so that it is impossible to get both sets. You only have enough time to play one toon to get top end gear in pvp or pve before the next expansion comes out and resets all gear.

[Haeso]

Right on. If pvp rewarded the same gear as pve given the same amount of time, you would only need one set. But to ensure no one ever wins the game, they include two sets so that it is impossible to get both sets. You only have enough time to play one toon to get top end gear in pvp or pve before the next expansion comes out and resets all gear.

 

The problem is deeper than that, and from a design standpoint seen as completely necessary. You know there are lockout timers on raids, correct? There's a reason for that. Just like there's a reason PvP gear is made worse for PvE. If it took a hundred hours of raiding a few hours a week or a hundred hours of PvPing to get the same set - you'd have people in full campaign gear right now. And if it took more time to do one than the other, while being equal, it'd be unfair. By making the sets different it's not unfair that it takes significantly more time to acquire PvP gear than PvE gear, though if PvE were actually difficult PvE might technically require more effort (It doesn't, not in this game.) to balance out the time + effort = reward ratio. Though if they went a step further and made high rating = access to the same gear for cheaper, that would allow them to keep the time+effort=reward consistent between both...

 

But that would require rated warzones which require cross server warzones which require netcode and infastructure which requires figuring out how to make different legacies play nice with one another while having the same name etc etc.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Haeso

[DarkDruidSS]

I don't understand how people think that the 10-49 bracket is balanced.

 

Do you think it is balance because you have the preceived notion that you can kill a level 49 at level 10?

 

Because I am playing through this same bracket right now and at 44 on my sniper I straight wreck people. At 40 with the PvP set that i bought my damage went up considerablly because the bolster system adds to your current gear level. So if you are geared out in all blues for your level then you are wrecking it. There is a marauder on my server that is level 49. He has been level 49 for a long time and the reason he is still level 49 is he quits the WZ just before it ends. The dude is decked out in all purple gear and he just straight rips through anyone and anything in his path.

 

If the bolster system worked like you guys dream that it does... why does he slaughter everyone? Isn't the point of the bolster system to even everyone out to that of a 49?

 

Anyone doubting me please join Death Wind Corridor on the Empire side and ask anyone pre-50 about Funaki the level 49 marauder. He is well known.

 

The bolster system is far from flawless. If everyone is level 50 then everyone should be wearing level 50 gear... at which point the bolster system would still have people in better gear doing better... There is still a gear advantage with the current bolster system.

[Macecrest]

This thread may as well be titled: Should endgame progression be primarily vertical or horizontal?

 

For the readers that aren't familiar with this terminology, here is an excellent resource:

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

 

It is quite apparent that vertical progression is the industry standard for most mmo games today, and SWTOR is no exception. My personal opinion is that SWTOR could have been amazingly innovative with gamewide horizontal progression. Every planet could have remained relevant for all players, no matter what level of progression they had reached, and we might have avoided the fleet-centric population problem that some players disliked. Levels and stats would disappear, making PvP balance that much easier to achieve. A huge benefit is that any "level" player can group with any "level" player to experience content together and enjoy meaningful progression.

 

I don't claim to know why the game designers chose one direction for the game over another (actually, I'm not sure if anyone outside BioWare knows) but I do think the problems we are facing at endgame are the direct result of the choice they made. I think legacy in 1.2 was a good step to bring more horizontal progression into the game, but I fear the innate vertical design of SWTOR is holding it back.

[Onekagai]

there is no debate. if you claim to understand anything about pvp then you understand why a stat special to PvP is needed. L2P

[mightycount]

It's needed.

 

Cheers.

[Trevalion]

vote: needed

Qualifier 1: Only because of the current implementation of instanced pvp. If we changed the system then expertise becomes unneeded.

Qualifier 2: I dont WANT expertise. I WANT the current implementation to change.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[DarkHelsing]

vote: needed

Qualifier 1: Only because of the current implementation of instanced pvp. If we changed the system then expertise becomes unneeded.

Qualifier 2: I dont WANT expertise. I WANT the current implementation to change.

 

There are so many votes like this... so many. The "not needed votes" are asking for what you are stating in "Qualifier 2".

[DarkHelsing]

This thread may as well be titled: Should endgame progression be primarily vertical or horizontal?

 

For the readers that aren't familiar with this terminology, here is an excellent resource:

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

 

It is quite apparent that vertical progression is the industry standard for most mmo games today, and SWTOR is no exception. My personal opinion is that SWTOR could have been amazingly innovative with gamewide horizontal progression. Every planet could have remained relevant for all players, no matter what level of progression they had reached, and we might have avoided the fleet-centric population problem that some players disliked. Levels and stats would disappear, making PvP balance that much easier to achieve. A huge benefit is that any "level" player can group with any "level" player to experience content together and enjoy meaningful progression.

 

I don't claim to know why the game designers chose one direction for the game over another (actually, I'm not sure if anyone outside BioWare knows) but I do think the problems we are facing at endgame are the direct result of the choice they made. I think legacy in 1.2 was a good step to bring more horizontal progression into the game, but I fear the innate vertical design of SWTOR is holding it back.

 

nice post, good info

[DarkHelsing]

I have a question if you have Bolster give Expertise how would gear progression work? Will everyone get the same gear at the same rate for both PvP & PvE? If so how long is acceptable for both PvP & PvE to allow a fresh level 50 not to constantly get race rolled by those wearing the best gear or even the level above gear for an extended period of time? Will the difference in level of gear be too large that even if you upgrade your gear you are still getting face rolled?

 

I'm still waiting to get an answer to this question.

 

No need to wait for the answer, go back and read it, it's been given a dozen times with several different ideas and suggestions.

[Zintair]

Are you talking about splitting up expertise into 3 stats one for each of the bonuses the one stat currently has?

Interesting concept, not sure how that's gonna play out when 2 people stack +damage. Hell healers are gonna be ***** by anyone stacking +damage because they'll be taking massive damage.

 

The only way I can see this working is by limiting how much of one you can have over the other or it's gonna be painful and tanks would stack so much damage reduction they'd be practically unkillable.

 

Well what you would do is break the stat up however and take a look at what each of the 8 unique classes and their specs might need. Since they are already balanced gear wise around this it seems simple to merely alter the Expertise values or break them apart into multiple attributes like I suggest.

 

In order to keep it balanced you regulate how much of each stat a player can achieve just by purchasing gear and then by modding it with other gear for more hybrid stats.

 

Tanks would focus on...

 

+Dmg Reduction - Primary 6:4 ratio

+DMG - Secondary

 

Healers would focus on...

 

+Healing - Primary 7:3 ratio

+Dmg - Secondary

 

DPS would focus on...

 

+DMG - Primary 7:3 ratio

+DMG Reduction - Secondary

 

If a class wanted to alter the natural stats of the pieces they would have to buy offset pieces and change the mods and enhancements. But the Armoring's should be locked to their base class. The ratio of points should also prevent tanks from achieving to high of a Damage Reduction. It would also prevent Healers from stacking any defense so they must rely on Tanks and positioning and DPS would solely be for that.. DPS but they would also benefit slightly better than Healers in terms of taking the damage.

 

 

Once again this is only on paper. Just seems a way for Archtype/Trinity to select the gear and role they want and have it apply its MAXIMUM effect in PvP. It also tones down the underwhelming nature of Shield/Absorb in PvP.

[Nimossa]

Pasting this post from one I made earlier on another thread. I wasn't getting any feedback on it and was hoping to get some insight from you folks.

 

This subject seems to be one that is constantly discussed and I think about it a lot. I love to PVP and I love to raid with my guildies. I love to be questing alone and have an enemy faction attack me while I have mobs on me and still beat them, and sometimes I don't. It's all part of the game and I get it. I read all the different threads pertaining to this and I see a lot of the same old song. What I have yet to see is a solution other than remove it/keep it in game.

One of the reasons I see people wanting to keep expertise is because they feel the raiding players should not be able to come in when bored and roll you, you who have been pvp'ing WZ's and grinding it up the hard way. A valid arguement.

One of the reasons I see people wanting to remove it is because thay chose to level their toon at a more relaxed pace, explore a little more maybe, and didn't "grind it up" to 50, hence they had less time at 50 pvp'ing and furthermore don't have the BM or WL gear. Another valid arguement.

Theres no denying expertise doesn't play a role in pvp otherwise we wouldn't be on this thread, and the various others. I wanted to throw something out there and see what the PVP and PVE community thought of it. Please understand that it's just an idea and by no means am I trying to say that it will fix everything and SWTOR will be the MMO utopia that all should mass exodus to. One problem at a time, one solution at a time.

So heres my thought, as far as level 50 gear is concerned what do you all think the outcome would be if expertise were made for PVE only? Let me explain. Most of us agree that the level 50 gear needs to be part of the raiding, especially for those who run the HM and NM modes. Why not make it so that, instead of super stats, the expertise is in fact what helps those peeps out in those raids. The level 50 gear will still have tiers but they'd be expertise tiers with the same stats for the top 50 PVP gear. Now PVP'ers I'm not ripping your hearts out just yet. As I said I love to PVP, and I do believe you should be given a little love for all your hard work, experience and dedication.

Heres what I'm thinking, I can only speak for a couple of classes about this but the other players I talk to tend to agree that our set bonuses for PVP gear is kind of , meh, for lack of a better word. I truly don't think that it would be the deciding factor between two good players. Perhaps work on a set bonus that is PVP oriented, that would not be useful in raiding/PVE but super helpful in PVP. This would of coarse have to be done on a class to class, spec to spec basis, and would be a great deal of work for the dev team but there is no great reward without a great deal of work. PVP'ers thats not all, reallocating your expertise and tweaking your set bonuses would not be the end, in fact I'd also propose adding a PVP only ablity with a full set of armor. This would also be the case with PVE raid gear.

There are a few more ideas I can throw into this mix but I just wanted to get some constructive feedback for this stuff so far. It would keep the seperation between PVP and PVE gear that many would like in place yet also give those starting in the 50 PVP bracket a chance, wether or not they have a chance to win based on skill VS gear, and wether or not expertise is or is not the deciding factor. Also, please, I have seen all the mathematical calculations for expertise and heard all the arguements about how it cancels out ... or doesn't.... if everyone was rocking BM or WL. Thats not why I'm posting this, nor am I trying to start an arguement between the two opinions. I'm really just trying to find a solution because I really feel that it is the imagination and creativity of the players that can thrust a game like this into greatness. Peace and hair grease I'm gonna go log in now.

[Jadescythe]

Pasting this post from one I made earlier on another thread. I wasn't getting any feedback on it and was hoping to get some insight from you folks.

 

This subject seems to be one that is constantly discussed and I think about it a lot. I love to PVP and I love to raid with my guildies. I love to be questing alone and have an enemy faction attack me while I have mobs on me and still beat them, and sometimes I don't. It's all part of the game and I get it. I read all the different threads pertaining to this and I see a lot of the same old song. What I have yet to see is a solution other than remove it/keep it in game.

One of the reasons I see people wanting to keep expertise is because they feel the raiding players should not be able to come in when bored and roll you, you who have been pvp'ing WZ's and grinding it up the hard way. A valid arguement.

One of the reasons I see people wanting to remove it is because thay chose to level their toon at a more relaxed pace, explore a little more maybe, and didn't "grind it up" to 50, hence they had less time at 50 pvp'ing and furthermore don't have the BM or WL gear. Another valid arguement.

Theres no denying expertise doesn't play a role in pvp otherwise we wouldn't be on this thread, and the various others. I wanted to throw something out there and see what the PVP and PVE community thought of it. Please understand that it's just an idea and by no means am I trying to say that it will fix everything and SWTOR will be the MMO utopia that all should mass exodus to. One problem at a time, one solution at a time.

So heres my thought, as far as level 50 gear is concerned what do you all think the outcome would be if expertise were made for PVE only? Let me explain. Most of us agree that the level 50 gear needs to be part of the raiding, especially for those who run the HM and NM modes. Why not make it so that, instead of super stats, the expertise is in fact what helps those peeps out in those raids. The level 50 gear will still have tiers but they'd be expertise tiers with the same stats for the top 50 PVP gear. Now PVP'ers I'm not ripping your hearts out just yet. As I said I love to PVP, and I do believe you should be given a little love for all your hard work, experience and dedication.

Heres what I'm thinking, I can only speak for a couple of classes about this but the other players I talk to tend to agree that our set bonuses for PVP gear is kind of , meh, for lack of a better word. I truly don't think that it would be the deciding factor between two good players. Perhaps work on a set bonus that is PVP oriented, that would not be useful in raiding/PVE but super helpful in PVP. This would of coarse have to be done on a class to class, spec to spec basis, and would be a great deal of work for the dev team but there is no great reward without a great deal of work. PVP'ers thats not all, reallocating your expertise and tweaking your set bonuses would not be the end, in fact I'd also propose adding a PVP only ablity with a full set of armor. This would also be the case with PVE raid gear.

There are a few more ideas I can throw into this mix but I just wanted to get some constructive feedback for this stuff so far. It would keep the seperation between PVP and PVE gear that many would like in place yet also give those starting in the 50 PVP bracket a chance, wether or not they have a chance to win based on skill VS gear, and wether or not expertise is or is not the deciding factor. Also, please, I have seen all the mathematical calculations for expertise and heard all the arguements about how it cancels out ... or doesn't.... if everyone was rocking BM or WL. Thats not why I'm posting this, nor am I trying to start an arguement between the two opinions. I'm really just trying to find a solution because I really feel that it is the imagination and creativity of the players that can thrust a game like this into greatness. Peace and hair grease I'm gonna go log in now.

 

Overall, not a terrible suggestion to keep things separate and make both groups somewhat happy. I have only two reservations:

1)There really isn't a set bonus that would be specific to PVP for every class that wouldn't equate to pretty much making them godlike and still be significant enough to be worth obtaining( if you have any ideas, definitely throw them out there). I suppose you could do something like giving another CC break to those in full PVP gear. It really wouldn't affect PVE, but that would diminish the use of CC to be useless for the most part in PVP if people are carrying the set bonus.

2) The set bonuses are now on the armoring for top tier gear, if the set bonuses are that much better, you will see PVE players taking the armoring pieces out of PVP gear and leaving all the other mods as is, which would then require those who want to do PVE to grind PVP to be BIS.

[MinguesDew]

Needed.

 

It keeps the numbers balanced while not affecting raids and maintains the gear treadmill that MMOers claim not to like but actually crave as they need something to work towards. Without goals, MMOers quit en masse, you guys don't know yourselves very well.

 

The gear system they have now is actually pretty great, the fact there are so many complaints just shows MMOers are a bunch of sad sacks who can't see past their face.

[DarthKhaos]

No need to wait for the answer, go back and read it, it's been given a dozen times with several different ideas and suggestions.

I have read every page and even though I do not recall each and every post with photographic memory I do not recall where people explain how to prevent a long period where those who do not have the top end gear getting beat down by those who do not. Remember I focused and continuously talk about 2 things.

1. Rate of progression for PvP & PvE and
   
2. Level/Quality of gear during the progression
   

Even if the Bolster system gives everyone the same expertise for balancing purposes we still have the gear difference to deal with. Gonna give you a simple rundown let's say it takes 5 months to get the top end gear with the Bolster system that's 5 months let's say 4-4.5 months of getting beat down if you don't got the top end gear.

How come? Because the difference between Basic & Intermediate and Intermediate & Advance needs to be large enough in PvE or people will be skipping. Therefore Intermediate geared people will get rolled by Advance people in PvP due to the gear difference.

 

Now with Expertise let's say just for discussion purposes it takes the same 5 months. The progression from Basic to Intermediate takes 1.5 months and because the gear difference between Basic & Intermediate and Intermediate & Advanced is small enough that someone in Intermediate can win against someone in Advanced. So the time players get face rolled by those in Advanced gear is down to 1.5 months.

 

They still have to work for the top end gear but they are competitive sooner unlike with an Expertise less system.

Edited May 12, 2012 by DarthKhaos

[utuwer]

Expertise is a must to separate PvP and PvE players. Mix them up only leads to unhappy players who do not like to do both.

 

Typical whines could be "PvPers get the best gears so easily!" or "I have to raid to PvP? But I do not want to spent 3+ hours in an ops and fight for loot." or "I have to PvP to get the best gears to enter xx NM ops? But I hate PvP"

 

So i would vote for "YES, Expertise is needed."

[mrekxxx]

i vote to remove expertise ... and pay only symbolic fee to remove or change mods and .. in the gear, is it so linear and boring now

 

and problem with raid gear? if is between rakata and columi only 1% difference we are good no? why ppl want gear dependant game? it might be everything bout skill and situation and team work only game !

[Sraom]

This thread may as well be titled: Should endgame progression be primarily vertical or horizontal?

 

For the readers that aren't familiar with this terminology, here is an excellent resource:

http://taugrim.com/2012/04/19/why-games-should-scale-horizontally-instead-of-vertically/

 

It is quite apparent that vertical progression is the industry standard for most mmo games today, and SWTOR is no exception. My personal opinion is that SWTOR could have been amazingly innovative with gamewide horizontal progression. Every planet could have remained relevant for all players, no matter what level of progression they had reached, and we might have avoided the fleet-centric population problem that some players disliked. Levels and stats would disappear, making PvP balance that much easier to achieve. A huge benefit is that any "level" player can group with any "level" player to experience content together and enjoy meaningful progression.

 

I don't claim to know why the game designers chose one direction for the game over another (actually, I'm not sure if anyone outside BioWare knows) but I do think the problems we are facing at endgame are the direct result of the choice they made. I think legacy in 1.2 was a good step to bring more horizontal progression into the game, but I fear the innate vertical design of SWTOR is holding it back.

 

This.

 

Even though I don't fully agree with his idea of horizontal progression, vertical progression is detrimental to PvP gameplay (and to some extent, gear incentives harm PvE gameplay as well), even more so when badly gear players can be queued up against well geared players because that will just be a faceroll.

 

Thus I think expertise is not the cause of the problem, it is just something there to blame on.

Without expertise, high end gear will still roflstomp low end gear and that is the issue.

 

---------------------------------------

Now, given the status quo, which means gear progression stays

 

The expertise/progression system could use some extra work, such as:

1) making all PvP gear in the same slot give the same amount of expertise, such as 10% increase for a full set

2) design a similar system to wow, so that for the 2nd best set , players can use PvE tokens to buy PvP gear and vice versa so that the players don't have to suffer the period in which they can contribute nothing to their team in a warzone. For example, in wow you can transfer justice points into valor points and vice versa.

 

However, there must be a PvP stat, it is needed.

Edited May 12, 2012 by Sraom

[Nimossa]

Overall, not a terrible suggestion to keep things separate and make both groups somewhat happy. I have only two reservations:

1)There really isn't a set bonus that would be specific to PVP for every class that wouldn't equate to pretty much making them godlike and still be significant enough to be worth obtaining( if you have any ideas, definitely throw them out there). I suppose you could do something like giving another CC break to those in full PVP gear. It really wouldn't affect PVE, but that would diminish the use of CC to be useless for the most part in PVP if people are carrying the set bonus.

2) The set bonuses are now on the armoring for top tier gear, if the set bonuses are that much better, you will see PVE players taking the armoring pieces out of PVP gear and leaving all the other mods as is, which would then require those who want to do PVE to grind PVP to be BIS.

 

I agree with #1 there, I really don't want to lean to either set of gear being superior, I feel like thats a part of the problem. I like your idea of the anti CC feature for top tier PVP gear, it could be an across the board ability for all classes but I suspect that something like that would make things even more difficult for those just starting out in 50 PVP... unless it's in the recruit gear but that would start a whole other discussion. I'll really have to sit and think about this one before I post something else on it.

As for #2, I thought about set bonuses for the two types, they are both currently different in the sense that they, generally, do help in their genre's area. I definately wouldn't suggest anything that would want to make other players grind up a certain set just to cannibalize it and stick t in their PVE gear, or visa versa. Thats why I was kind of suggesting that both the PVE and PVP gear have the same top end stats and the expertise be the deciding factor for the raid gear. For example, If a PVE chest had 50 to END, and it was say tier 2 then the corresponding PVP tier 2 chest would also have 50 to END, the only reason one would want to raid in it is because the expertise would be what would mitigate damage from the bosses in HM or NM modes, scaling with thier tiers respectively.

Now, having said all that, to stop the raiders from getting the same statted gear and moving to PVP to "roll" those guys, would bring in the set bonuses oriented to PVP, could they battle in pvp and have a chance? Perhaps, if they were a skilled player and I'm sure the PVP community has no problem with a skilled player beating you ( I'm expecting major flak for that sarcasm) And could a PVP player go into a raid with entry level gear and survive, maybe, if your group was good, had some or all the PVE gear, know what they were doing, etc, etc. The point is you could cross over into the other area, if you liked, but you'd still be at a disadvantage to those who specifically target those areas of gameplay however not one that would basically cripple a player in either category so much that they just don't even want to play at all.

[EugeneYap]

I vote it stays, but it would be nice if BW allow Expertise to work in open PVP world against other factions.

[Tkerzis]

It's not needed, just make gear count for **** all in PvP (e.g. buffed stats based on class/level/spec).

It's already in the game in some form: the level 10-49 warzone buff (obv. it needs to be refined for endgame).

 

Nerf people with high end PvE gear to PvP stats.

Buff people with low end PvE gear to PvP stats.

 

Make PvP gear cosmetical or give it the same stats as the PvE counterparts. But keep previous called system in place to make sure other people can enjoy getting into the 50 bracket.

 

Makes PvP more competitive, since PvP would actually be about teamwork and skill.

Takes expertise out of the equation, thus making stepping into endgame PvP more fun.

 

Gear isn't needed, it's only there because we're (including the devs) so used to it being there.

[cerberias]

Needed.

 

Getting and properly modding your gear is an essential part of customisation, and in turn min-maxing. It's like doing training for sports, you can have all the skills in the world but if you don't have the fitness you'll still be at a huge disadvantage.

 

Obviously the reason it's in the game is to stop PVE'ers smashing PvP'ers in PvP with their higher quality gear... Hence why it was brought into WoW.. surely that's obvious. I remember dueling people out the front of Ironforge back in the day and there was a full AQ40/Naxx mage twoshotting people in duels, literally just poly -> pyro/flameblast dead on everyone. PvE'ers need gear upgrades, and they can't outshadow PvPer's because of it.

 

Also, it's not exactly hard to get, and the difference between BM/WH is negligible, maybe a fix could be being able to trade in Campaign tokens for BM PvP gear so the PvE'ers can gear up almost as well in PvE for PvP as the PvPers can do. Might stop their whining, but chances are most of the people whining about Expertise are horrible players - most of my characters are still running around in champ gear creaming people's faces off.

[williambr]

Needed.

 

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