Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[Zataos]

Needed

 

Unfortunately it's probably better for dedicated PVPers to have expertise in game to weed out casuals and PVEers "trying" PVP and dominating not based on player skill skill but on player gear gear ground out though playing against a computer over and over again.

 

I do suggest that expertise be tagged on the Legacy and not on the toon.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Zataos

[Ntranced]

Not needed.

 

But will never go away, just a lazy way for the devs to make changes in PVP without totally screwing with PVE balance at the same time. Plus it doesn't hurt having 2 end game "time sinks", most people I know do both since the PVP is now so lame, repetitive and has no open world combat.

[JeramieCrowe]

I do suggest that expertise be tagged on the Legacy and not on the toon.

 

Now there's an idea with some merit... then the Expertise is not on gear....

[rjkishida]

It is not needed.

 

This is just Bioware's attempt to create another grind. This makes a PVP specific stat. Instead of only needing 1 endgame set, now you need something for raids and PVP. Yes this is common for MMOs to do. Doesn't mean that it doesn't suck.

[Elogio]

It is VERY needed. The way Expertise works post 1.2 its actually the best PvP dmg lvler I've experienced. It actually forces teamwork.

[Vicelord]

It is needed because without it PVP would need to be on par with the top ops gear or bluebie pve'ers would come in and face roll pvpers.

[justntrue]

Not needed.

 

whoever heard of needing two armour sets to enjoy content available to all players?

[DarkHelsing]

Updated

[AardvarkTongue]

Needed

[DarkHelsing]

I'm surprised here, with the slight lead that Expertise has for staying, no one really has a good reason for it other than "it's all we know..."

 

Before people flame thinking I put words in their mouth, that conclusion is being drawn form the following information given in this thread;

 

No one for Expertise has stated they've played one of the hundreds of MMOs that don't separate PvP and PvE gear and stated "this didn't work, at all". However it has been mentioned several times by voters against Expertise that they have played other MMOs that didn't separate PvP and PvE gear, and that example of balance is what they'd like to see in swtor.

 

That leads one to the conclusion that those that have played MMOs were PvE and PvP wasn't segregated, know how a system that doesn't pull PvPers away from PvEers works and they are all for removing Expertise. Where as those that have not had that experience feel that separation is the only way to go because they know nothing different.

 

Interesting.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Darth_Vampirius]

Is needed.

[zachbuford]

Expertise is needed.

 

It is impossible to fully balance pvp and pve together. I can't begin to count the qq posts about pvp nerfing pve (vise versa.) WoW has been trying for years to do it and every month some class gets buffed and another nerfed because of it.

 

The only way to solve this problem is to make pvp and pve two very different progressions. Skill is most important in pvp that is why gearing up in pvp is fast, gearing is pve is slow because getting that new tier is all about coordination with friends to get that sense of accomplishment. That is why expertise is needed so much. Pvpers are suppose to stack expertise and use augs to customize their stats for the role they wish. Pve-ers strive for complete optimization; the mindset of pve and pvp are completely different, anyone saying otherwise is a fool.

 

The only way to properly balance is to keep them as far from eachother as possible. Pvp gear should be useless in ops, and pve gear should be useless in warzones. End of story.

[DarkHelsing]

Expertise is needed.

 

It is impossible to fully balance pvp and pve together. I can't begin to count the qq posts about pvp nerfing pve (vise versa.) WoW has been trying for years to do it and every month some class gets buffed and another nerfed because of it.

 

The only way to solve this problem is to make pvp and pve two very different progressions. Skill is most important in pvp that is why gearing up in pvp is fast, gearing is pve is slow because getting that new tier is all about coordination with friends to get that sense of accomplishment. That is why expertise is needed so much. Pvpers are suppose to stack expertise and use augs to customize their stats for the role they wish. Pve-ers strive for complete optimization; the mindset of pve and pvp are completely different, anyone saying otherwise is a fool.

 

The only way to properly balance is to keep them as far from eachother as possible. Pvp gear should be useless in ops, and pve gear should be useless in warzones. End of story.

The above quote is a perfect example for the below quote;

I'm surprised here, with the slight lead that Expertise has for staying, no one really has a good reason for it other than "it's all we know..."

 

Before people flame thinking I put words in their mouth, that conclusion is being drawn form the following information given in this thread;

 

No one for Expertise has stated they've played one of the hundreds of MMOs that don't separate PvP and PvE gear and stated "this didn't work, at all". However it has been mentioned several times by voters against Expertise that they have played other MMOs that didn't separate PvP and PvE gear, and that example of balance is what they'd like to see in swtor.

 

That leads one to the conclusion that those that have played MMOs were PvE and PvP wasn't segregated, know how a system that doesn't pull PvPers away from PvEers works and they are all for removing Expertise. Where as those that have not had that experience feel that separation is the only way to go because they know nothing different.

 

Interesting.

 

 

 

updated

Edited April 26, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[sadran]

It is not needed.

 

Maybe for all you hardcore ppl make expertise available in Ranked Warzones and let the ppl who just want to have fun and play the game do without the worthless elitist stat thats ruining the game.

Edited April 26, 2012 by sadran

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Pourekos]

Not needed.

 

They can implement a system like 10-49 with stat normalisation across the board and in such case they can balance/change all the abilities in this system without affecting pve. Since all the pvp is instanced at this moment, and it looks like it will be for a while, that will be both a sensible solution and also allow them to make needed changes much faster.

 

The major change with this method is that they will need to actually be creative and implement new rewards for the pvpers that do affect instanced combat in pvp. A great number of suggestions have been made in these forums and elsewhere and BW could try and incorporate some of them.

[Kriesha]

Not needed.

 

Equal rewards from PvE and PvP are a better solution.

[DarkHelsing]

updated

[Soljin]

It is not needed!

 

Same gear rewards For PvP through PvP, equal to PvE gear acquired through PvE but each teir equal to eachother in stats exaclty.

 

Add a Dmg, Defense, Heal % across all players(not gear) in PvP combat to balance PvE content to PvP so TTK is not to quick due to PvE dmamge requirments for large encounters.

 

THis introduces skill based PvP and the ability for all players to participate in all apects of the game with friends but still compete in their primary area of interest without losing progression due to wanting to see other areas of the game.

[TSDx]

Not needed.

 

They can implement a system like 10-49 with stat normalisation across the board and in such case they can balance/change all the abilities in this system without affecting pve. Since all the pvp is instanced at this moment, and it looks like it will be for a while, that will be both a sensible solution and also allow them to make needed changes much faster.

 

 

I actually like this idea. I enjoy the under 50 bracket more than I do the 50 bracket. No expertise and bolster mean is more equal, even with vast level differences meaning many more skill points in their tree.

[zachbuford]

The above quote is a perfect example for the below quote.

 

Your reading comprehension is failing you. I started my reply saying that I have had MMO experience and have played MMOs, I played WoW for 4 years, Eve, Guild Wars, and even tried Rift (rift sucks.)

 

"Get your pvp our of my pve" is cliched because of how true it is. I've not seen a single person for the elimination of expertise give a positive reason why. Pvp gear progression is suppose to be very fast to make it more about skill than gear, meanwhile pve progression is a slow process as players wait for lockouts.

 

A player can get full War Hero in less than a week, full campaign takes months. Give one reason why eliminating expertise benefits the game; all getting rid of expertise accomplishes is killing pve progression. Once you first hit 50 why even bother doing dailies and flashpoints if you can relax in fleet, mindlessly farming pvp to get your max tier gear in days?

 

EDIT: The only argument for the elimination of expertise is the "I am lazy and want better things for less work" argument. If you pvp all day you should not preform as well as somebody who grinded out their pve gear over weeks to get in that ops. I've approached the OP with logic... but apparently logic and comprehension are two things lacking in every pvp forum post I've seen...

Edited April 26, 2012 by zachbuford

[Terrorble]

Not needed.

 

whoever heard of needing two armour sets to enjoy content available to all players?

 

Exactly. Not needed.

 

 

There seems to be about 2 reasons people say it is needed:

 

1. So that PvE people with their awesome raid gear can't easily beat dedicated PvPers.

It seems to me that several people who have answered "it is needed" for this reason aren't understanding that gear availability could be equal between PvE and PvP. You get good gear via raiding or pvping, and it takes similar amounts of work. It would take revamping the system, but it could be done. Let skill, luck, strategy, teamwork, effort, and a well thought out choices in your skill tree make the difference.

 

2. So that the Devs have a way to balance PvP stuff independently of PvE.

This is a perfectly valid reason to keep expertise, but I don't see how expertise is being used for that right now. (really, if it is, I want to read the explanation and learn) Currently, it seems to be a stat on gear that prevents me from being able to log my lvl50 and join a WZ and have a shot at competing.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Terrorble
Just seeing post before this...

[zachbuford]

Exactly. Not needed.

 

 

There seems to be about 2 reasons people say it is needed:

 

1. So that PvE people with their awesome raid gear can't easily beat dedicated PvPers.

It seems to me that several people who have answered "it is needed" for this reason aren't understanding that gear availability could be equal between PvE and PvP. You get good gear via raiding or pvping,

and it takes similar amounts of work.

It would take revamping the system, but it could be done. Let skill, luck, strategy, teamwork, effort, and a well thought out choices in your skill tree make the difference.

 

2. So that the Devs have a way to balance PvP stuff independently of PvE.

This is a perfectly valid reason to keep expertise, but I don't see how expertise is being used for that right now. (really, if it is, I want to read the explanation and learn) Currently, it seems to be a stat on gear that prevents me from being able to log my lvl50 and join a WZ and have a shot at competing.

 

As I stated several times on this thread, you are completly wrong. "Revamping the system" is what they did with 1.2, and by increasing the expertise cap it greatly helped pvp. I feel like a broken record because I have said it a bit too many times but pvp progression and pve progression are two completely different things and should have different rewards...

Edited April 26, 2012 by zachbuford

[DarkHelsing]

Not to tear apart your post or anything mean like that... but yeah.

Your reading comprehension is failing you. I started my reply saying that I have had MMO experience and have played MMOs, I played WoW for 4 years, Eve, Guild Wars, and even tried Rift (rift sucks.)

I didn't miss read anything, and my statement still holds true, which points the misscomprehension more into your direction. Finger pointing aside, 4 years of WoW proves my point. Eve doesn't fit into the point. GW is a perfect example of how PvP works without messing with PvE, proving my other points. Rift, well if you thought it sucked it also doesn't fit into the point. So... anyways.

 

"Get your pvp our of my pve" is cliched because of how true it is. I've not seen a single person for the elimination of expertise give a positive reason why. Pvp gear progression is suppose to be very fast to make it more about skill than gear, meanwhile pve progression is a slow process as players wait for lockouts.

Ok, so please explain how PvP gear progression is fast yet you don't start it till level 50. While PvE progression is Linear because you start it at level 1 and finish it at 50.

 

A player can get full War Hero in less than a week, full campaign takes months. Give one reason why eliminating expertise benefits the game; all getting rid of expertise accomplishes is killing pve progression. Once you first hit 50 why even bother doing dailies and flashpoints if you can relax in fleet, mindlessly farming pvp to get your max tier gear in days?

Full War Hero in less than a week!? Wait wait wait, did you just say players can get full War Hero in less than a week??? Wow. We're done here, thanks for your vote.