Expertise - the Debate Thread, Place your Vote!

[Rouncer]

So why can't PvP Gear and PvE gear be the same, use one here and use the other there? PvP servers indicate in their very name that PvP and PvE are done in the same place at the same time, so why cause gear gaps between the two.

 

Or why not put Expertise on all the Mobs?

 

Because the two aspects of the game have very different ideal gear acquisition rates.

 

In PvP, for a game like this, you want people to gear up quickly so that they are meeting each other on a level playing field. Gear is given out very quickly with the purpose of the gear to enable players to segregate themselves from others based on time played as well as skill. Ranked PvP being an extension of this concept as the rewards are all cosmetic at the high end. It's why they "give" recruit gear away for basically nothing and why battlemaster is so "easy" to obtain and why war hero is such a minimal increase over the battlemaster. It keeps the gear grind in place while limiting divergence in player power to level the playing field.

 

PvE is a very different situation. In PvE the purpose of gear is to gate content and keep the churn rate consistent. Churn being the rate at which content is consumed and the need to add additional content to keep the player base interested. In both situations gear is meant to act as a carrot to keep players playing but the difference is that in PvP you want everyone get their gear quickly to level the playing field while in PvE you need to limit the speed at which the players receive the rewards. If players were to get the highest end gear too quickly in PvE then they would start to eat through your content faster then you were able to produce more of it. Ending up with situations where all the players in the operations group are completely decked out yet new content isn't due out for months.

 

The other side of the coin is that allowing both paths to reward the same gear (one commendation to rule them all) means that players have more paths towards gaining the gear. Putting pressure on PvE players to PvP more to gear up faster (which also increases your game's churn rate) while putting pressure on PvP players to PvE more at the start of a season for the additional advantage over players who aren't putting in as much time.

 

Making the PvP feel even more unbalanced as a consequence. Especially at the start of a new season/patch when you would be seeing your highest levels of concurrency, resulting in an even greater gear divergence between those players doing everything 24/7 and those playing at a more casual pace. Which puts pressure on people to play even more leading to more burnout, more complaints about the game feeling like a grind, more complaints about everything being unbalanced, and just general dissatisfaction with the game for something that is easily avoided by having 2 paths of progression separated by a PvP stat like expertise.

Edited April 25, 2012 by Rouncer

[murshawursha]

It is not needed.

 

Players forget that the only reason WoW implemented a PvP stat was because they were unable to properly balance classes from PvE to PvP, what made them survivable in PvE made them OP in PvP so Resilience was added so WoW had the ability to adjust the classes accordingly in PvP.

 

SWTOR did not have that flaw, the classes were pretty well balanced right out of the gate. There is no need for Expertise except for the reason to segregate PvPers from Raiders.

 

Such segregation is not needed, especially in SWTOR and here's why;

 

The system in swtor allows players to mix and match armor types to allow them to look how they want to look, and have stats according to their play style. All Raiding versus PvP rewards need to do is allow players a different access to those pools, differently looking gear, different stat'd slot modifications, different set bonuses, different access to legacy stuff, etc.

 

Having a system that separates Raiders from PvPers is an argument that's been had for a long time. The only problem is the argument is a mute point. Raiders should be able to PvP, and PvPers should be able to raid. Every hard core PvP game on the market does not separate PvE gear from PvP gear, they don't, period, because only the people that don't know any better think it's a good idea.

 

Here's a scenario;

 

Player Tim wants to Raid, it's what he likes to do, so he spends his time raiding and is rewarded for his choice of end game content.

Player Jill wants to PvP, it's what she likes to do, so she spends her time PvPing and is rewarded for her choice of end game content.

 

Player Tim decides he's going to give PvP a crack, a raid was canceled and he's bored, so he joins a game. He knows very little about what to do because he doesn't PvP, so his skill is totally lacking in how to deal with live players instead of timer mechanic mobs. He meets Jill on the PvP field and they battle it out. Jill wins because she knows what she is doing because this is where she spends most of her time, and her gear is modded to be more Player vs Player oriented. What Tim walks away with is a defeat, but not because he got rolled do to having no PvP gear, the gear was pretty even minus the mods done to accommodate Jill's play style in PvP. So Tim isn't utterly behind the game because he doesn't have PvP gear, he's behind the game because he lacks the skill from devoting his time to Raiding. But his Raiding gear isn't what throws him behind the eight ball, the gear is so close to equal, it's a mute point, so it comes down to player skill... you know, what PvP should be about.

 

Jill decides to take a break from PvPing and gets invited to Raid. Jill is a good player, but has no idea what to do in the Raid, everything has to stop and be explained to her, she fumbles a few times and dies removing her effectiveness in the Raid, and her gear is modded more for survivablilty, or burst dps, or whatever, but not aimed at sustained several minute fights.

 

If Jill wants to be better at Raiding, she's going to need to build up a new set of mods for her gear, probably using a different set of gear so she doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and she's going to have to Raid more often to get to that point where she is an ace in the hole.

 

If Tim wants to be better at PvP, he's going to need to build up a new set of mods for his gear, probably using a different set of gear so he doesn't have to spend credits switching mods back and forth, and he's going to have to PvP more often to get to that point where he is an ace in the hole.

 

Jill knows how to mod her Equipment to be a better asset to PvP. Tim knows how to mod his Equipment to be a better asset to his Raids. People that want to do both will undoubtedly have two totally different sets of Equipment.

But that's it. There is no reason a Raider can't enjoy a once in a while game of PvP and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's also no reason a PvPer can't enjoy a once in a while Raid and not be so gear gimped it's ridiculous. There's just no reason to have that separation.

 

At most, AT MOST, I could see the use of being able to add set bonuses to Equipment, and certain Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against non-players for Raiding; and other Set Bonuses add distinct Bonuses when used against other players. At most the line could be drawn with very simple and minor changes like that.

 

The game should be about what you like to do, and what you like to do should allow you participate in End Game. If you like to Raid over PvP, that shouldn't force you into doing a bunch of PvP just to not get rolled for lack of not having Expertise PvP gear. You should get rolled because you don't really know what you are doing because you prefer to Raid. Things like Expertise FORCE players into grinding in other areas they may or may not enjoy, and FORCING players grind in an area they may not enjoy is wrong. If they enjoy it once in awhile, cool, but making them grind it for hours and hours so when they do join those times they want to play they don't get utterly destroyed for not having the proper gear.... that is the wrong way to approach it.

 

Anyone that thinks otherwise, why do you need to hide behind your gear? Why do you need the ability to have gear replace any skill when killing people not equally geared? Can you not hold up if tested? Do you lack the skill required to play the game? Do challenges frighten you? Can you not handle equal geared fights?

 

Strive to be good at something because that's what you've gotten good at. Don't strive to be good at something because you managed to grind enough time to get gear that allows your lack of skill to not show.

 

Could not have said it any better myself. This is exactly why expertise is NOT NEEDED.

[DarkHelsing]

It is needed.

Thank you for your vote!

 

PvP'ers would quit the game if the best gear came from PvE... And the game would lose subscriptions... and eventually the PvE'ers would stop getting new content... I'd prefer to have PvP where the person who dedicates the most time to PvE is the most powerful player in the match, but that just simply doesn't work for people who do not want to play against scripted encounters and prefer the challenge of going up against another player and not having a set path they have to go down in order to win the fight.. In PvP, decisions have to be made on the fly much more often than in PvE. The only way to balance PvP is to allow PvP'ers to gain the best PvP gear by PvP'ing.

I don't understand this, would you mind explain this again? Because if RAiders got BM gear and PvPers got BM gear how would one dominate the other?

 

By the same respect, PvE'ers need to have better PvE gear than PvP'ers. Granted, there are times that those that excel in both can gain a slight edge in one or the other by going for the easier to get piece - be it PvP or PvE, but the best in slot for each needs to come from whatever aspect of the game the piece of gear is best in slot for. MAYBE have one piece that comes from the other aspect to reward those active in both, but surely not any more than one piece.

The system in place allowed this to happen without Expertise. The rewards for PvEing could easily yield different sets of Mods/Enhancements/Armorings/Set Bonuses; and PvP rewards could offer a different venue of Mods/Enhancements/Armorings/Set Bonuses, and not to mention different looks and styles. Both usable in both PvP and PvE, but still allowing a very specific type of Character Tweaking by mixing and matching the different rewards.

 

The only alternative to expertise is just having a set that scales with the bolster buff and still trumps PvE gear in world PvP... But that means the only alternative to expertise is a different implementation of the same exact thing.

If mobs had Expertise, so all gear acquired by PvE and PvP contained Expertise, how would that ruin the system? If it wouldn't ruin the system, everything having Expertise is equivalent to nothing having it.

[DarkHelsing]

Could not have said it any better myself. This is exactly why expertise is NOT NEEDED.

 

Thank you, and thank you for your vote.

 

 

Updated.

[STD_Skindancer]

Guild Wars 2 has no expertise stat at all! Skills work differently in competitive PvP than they do in the PvE game so a nerf to one system wont throw the other one out of whack. No gear grinding with competitive PvP characters at all, everyone is on level ground. No grinding out a new character if you dont like your current class! Characters used for the competitive 5v5 area style game play are already lvl 80 with all the skills unlocked!

[Satanski]

Its cheap workaround for a problem. Definitely not needed

[TurokDarkstar]

It is not needed.

 

There are plenty of other alternatives than either running Ops or grinding for PvP gear. PvP is about PvP, not carrot chasing. Victory is the only reward.

[Olympic]

It is not needed.

[Sippix]

It is not needed because I want my Rakata gear to be the best for two different aspects of the game. It's not good enough that my Rakata gear is already best for Operations, but I also need it to be the best for Warzones. Please remove Expertise from the game so I really only have to play one aspect of the game to be the best geared for both pve and pvp.

[MrXen]

It is needed.

[KorinHyvek]

Unless you remove gear progression, yeah, it's needed. Mainly to keep PvP players from getting stomped by raiders. The only other option is to just have 1 gear progression that can be gained from both PvP and PvE, but that has it's own issues.

 

 

Or you could do away with gear progression entirely (at least post-50), which might not be a bad idea. Would definately require a lot more work to create "more challenging" PvE, though. No more just bumping the numbers up.

[JeramieCrowe]

Unless you remove gear progression, yeah, it's needed. Mainly to keep PvP players from getting stomped by raiders. The only other option is to just have 1 gear progression that can be gained from both PvP and PvE, but that has it's own issues.

 

 

Or you could do away with gear progression entirely (at least post-50), which might not be a bad idea. Would definately require a lot more work to create "more challenging" PvE, though. No more just bumping the numbers up.

 

Armor should have one stat, and one stat only globally: damage mitigation according to weight. Otherwise, stats should be tied to skills.

 

But, we're WAAAAYY past that now... And I do not wish to condone another NGE....

Edited April 25, 2012 by JeramieCrowe

[JeramieCrowe]

It is not needed because I want my Rakata gear to be the best for two different aspects of the game. It's not good enough that my Rakata gear is already best for Operations, but I also need it to be the best for Warzones. Please remove Expertise from the game so I really only have to play one aspect of the game to be the best geared for both pve and pvp.

 

"Best geared for PvP".... *sigh* Am I only one of few who see SOOO much wrong with that statement?

[Marzinquan]

It is needed.

 

Because the two aspects of the game have very different ideal gear acquisition rates.

...<snip>

You sir, are eloquent.

[xXCheXGuevaraXx]

It is not needed.

 

They should just continue with the bolster buff at 50 and literally equalize all stats depending on classes, completely taking gear out of the equation and leaving only class balance and skill as the deciding factors. PvP rewards, such as gear, should be more in line with PvE gear, albeit of a lesser caliber, to allow a PvPer the option of being geared enough to at least begin PvE (be it running quests faster, or doing a flashpoint). The rewards would be a starter set basically.

 

A problem I can foresee with this model is that of World PvP, which is unfortunately nonexistent in this game anyways, at least on my server.

[Master-Nala]

Not needed. What is needed is for devs to have the courage to tell raiders that they don't have a deity given right to the best gear in the game. After that, you need to have abilities have different effects in PvP combat. Finally, you need to have a gear progression that is playstyle neutral.

[Rmog]

Needed, PvP requires commitment for the best gear just like PvE does....

 

Can't have you cake and eat it to fatties!

[JeramieCrowe]

Can't have you cake and eat it to fatties!

 

Hehehe, you know... you're use of "to" instead of "too," totally changes the meaning of that sentence hahahaha

[Razot]

Not needed in its current form!

[Arlanon]

It is needed.

 

You are wrong.

[Motav]

That person in recruit gear should've saved comms before hitting 50 and had a few BM pieces before his first 50 match. Before 1.2 I got my 6 champ bags all set before I hit 50 and jumped right into the game and did just fine. Oh sure I took more damage then everyone else but I still had fun and still contributed to the team.

 

And that effort rewarded me with nicer gear. PVP shouldn't hand out free gear unless they hand out free PVE gear as well. Unless you can get a full epic rakata set without ever setting foot into a flashpoint or operation of course...

 

No? You can't? Then how the hell does it make sense to hand out pvp gear to new players before they've ever played a match? ****s sake they made Recruit Gear that you can buy and STILL people complain. It's a lesser piece of COURSE it isn't as good! You don't expect people in full Tionese crap to farm Lost Island do you???

 

 

Copied and pasted from a different thread to save my fingers.

[CodyLundeen]

It is needed.

 

I didn't read the whole thread and I'm sure it's already been said but, without it the raiders would just dominate pvp. Anyone who played WoW would understand what I'm talking about. There's a reason that most recent mmo's have had a pvp stat and that is why.

 

Unless you somehow had a perma bolster system that put everyone's stats as equal, but then again, there's a game that has that and its called counterstrike lol where everyone is the same. MMO's can't be without gear and character progression, it's the nature of the beast, so this way at least one small group doesn't dominate both sides(unless they just really pvp a lot in addition to ops).

 

Expertise, resilience, whatever you want to name it. aren't perfect ways to do it, but without it we're all just cannon fodder for raiders.

[-Eternal-]

Vote:

 

It is needed - 16 votes

It is not needed - 7 votes

 

(To clear up some confusion, "It is not needed" would require a re-work of the system to get rid of Expertise, so it would not be the same system just Expertise removed. Removing anything would require other things to be addressed, it wouldn't be just simply remove the stat and continue on. I hope that helps clear things up)

 

Start with one of the above choices in your post, I'll keep tally of the votes. Underneath your vote add why you feel the way you feel, please be as in depth as possible, avoid Flaming, and just place your point-of-view as to your vote. Help me out by not voting more than once, because that would only slow down the tally process.

 

I'll start this off with my response.

 

 

It is needed but not with as much weight it is currently given. I should not be getting over 20% damage increase ever (and thats just with bm gear). It has created glass cannon battles and way too fast pvp death, which takes all of the strategy and fun out of pvp.

[Carico]

It is no needed.

 

There is already a stat that balances this that keeps getting overlooked, its called accuracy. PvE gear is budgeted to give accuracy to allow you to hit raid lvl mobs (or should be this way). All they'd have to do is make the hit chance on pvp 100%, and they could remove both expertise and accuracy from pvp gear, and rebudget the gear for more endurance, or other stats. PvP gear would be useless in pve because accuracy would be too low to be usefull. pve gear would be useless in pvp because too much of the budget would be spent on accuracy. And in case you were thinking that for pve someone could just stack a ton of accuracy on a couple pieces and use pvp gear for more dmg, it probably wouldn't work out, because with no extra mitigation from expertise, pvp gear stats would most likely have to be budgeted lower so people don't get 1 shot. So stacking accuracy for pve and using pvp gear would not net you an increase in dps.

 

edit (another thought): I don't see why this is so hard for game companies to do. It would be relatively simple to balance pve mobs/bosses by adjusting hp and armor/resistances, as opposed to trying to balance numbers for ever conceivable class/spec. They should be balancing pvp first and adjusting pve bosses accordingly.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Carico

[pwnshoppe]

+1 for needed.