Is jugger good at anything ?? (seriously

[kaksmurfen]

I have been reading on the forum abit. about juggers.

 

My general conclusion is: Jugger is MEDIOCRE. not realy good at anything when compared.

they dont have anything that stand out.

 

Tanking: Power techs do it ALOT easier, and better survival overall. same with Assassins.

 

Dps: Juggers can do some fun burst smash dmg. but thats it. (oh, and patch just made mara even stronger).

Comparing jugger to maruder. wich is our Family member...

we suck compared to maras dps and even defensive cooldowns...

 

if i dont remember wrong.. i think juggers is supposed to be a Juggernauth... that means having the best defensive cooldowns...

 

Juggers have advantage to jump into Soresu form to increase armor over maruder.

but what good is that.. you are so rage starved its just silly... you living on autoattacking. and that deals no dmg.

And the extra armor you get is still useless since in pvp, almost everything is about Elemental or Internal dmg

wich passing right thru the armor.

 

SO iam practically running around naked against many classes.

 

so.. jugger.. is mediocre...

 

Show me something where jugger shines over other classes when compared.

[Benevon]

If maras are so great, then roll one.

 

I know nothing about tanking so I won't really comment on that. I do think it's a bit off that juggs don't really have outstanding defense cooldowns (and enraged defense is not even for tanks with it's threat dump mechanic). But maras are the fotm until they get nerfed, then the ones playing them because they like the class will stay, and the ones just wanting to pwn everything will move on.

 

I love my veng jugg no matter how "mediocre" they may be. Do juggs still need a few tweaks? Probably. Eventually juggs will be the new fotm for awhile and when they get too OP and get hit with the nerf bat, I will keep playing mine.

[Leatherhoof]

I would have to disagree. I play veng spec and im only lvl 44, and i'll admit, veng spec jugg sucked at lower levels for me. But as of lately, i've really been enjoying the class. It takes some strategic planning to really have the upper hand, but i pump out fairly decent dps, and i use my taunts and protection abilities in pvp to aid my allies. There are classes that i have trouble against, but i usually enjoy the challenge of finding a way to eventually beat them. Overall, i would say i usually don't rank among the top people in overall damage at the end of wzs, but i usually am always top 3 for objective points and medals. So to answer your question, i would say yes, juggs are good. As veng, i get consistent dps, i have decent cc's, and i have the ability to protect my allies and rack up protection points too.

[lordofdamornin]

I have been reading on the forum abit. about juggers.

 

My general conclusion is: Jugger is MEDIOCRE. not realy good at anything when compared.

they dont have anything that stand out.

 

Tanking: Power techs do it ALOT easier, and better survival overall. same with Assassins.

 

Dps: Juggers can do some fun burst smash dmg. but thats it. (oh, and patch just made mara even stronger).

Comparing jugger to maruder. wich is our Family member...

we suck compared to maras dps and even defensive cooldowns...

 

if i dont remember wrong.. i think juggers is supposed to be a Juggernauth... that means having the best defensive cooldowns...

 

Juggers have advantage to jump into Soresu form to increase armor over maruder.

but what good is that.. you are so rage starved its just silly... you living on autoattacking. and that deals no dmg.

And the extra armor you get is still useless since in pvp, almost everything is about Elemental or Internal dmg

wich passing right thru the armor.

 

SO iam practically running around naked against many classes.

 

so.. jugger.. is mediocre...

 

Show me something where jugger shines over other classes when compared.

 

You are basing your conclusion on things you have read...on these forums?

 

Read less, play more, and form your own opinion.

 

Juggernaut is really strong at everything it does, if played properly.

 

Riôt

[Benevon]

I would have to disagree. I play veng spec and im only lvl 44, and i'll admit, veng spec jugg sucked at lower levels for me. But as of lately, i've really been enjoying the class. It takes some strategic planning to really have the upper hand, but i pump out fairly decent dps, and i use my taunts and protection abilities in pvp to aid my allies. There are classes that i have trouble against, but i usually enjoy the challenge of finding a way to eventually beat them. Overall, i would say i usually don't rank among the top people in overall damage at the end of wzs, but i usually am always top 3 for objective points and medals. So to answer your question, i would say yes, juggs are good. As veng, i get consistent dps, i have decent cc's, and i have the ability to protect my allies and rack up protection points too.

 

This.

I have to say I have the worst time if a gunslinger/sniper catches me from far away. Can't charge so I have to throw first and walk up to him to push him out of cover. If I'm outgeared I'm done. Otherwise, mara/sents are tricky with their 99% damage reduction, but if I can survive past that I'm good. Everyone else comes down to gear for me.

[OrphanOfDarkness]

Juggs are the best at being kited and resource starved as a consequence in PVP. They are also the BEST at taking twice as much effort to accomplish anything compared to any other class except Guardian. Hope this helped.

[jbuschell]

This.

I have to say I have the worst time if a gunslinger/sniper catches me from far away. Can't charge so I have to throw first and walk up to him to push him out of cover. If I'm outgeared I'm done. Otherwise, mara/sents are tricky with their 99% damage reduction, but if I can survive past that I'm good. Everyone else comes down to gear for me.

 

Against maras and sents I always save choke for guarded by the force/undying rage, choke + force push means they're out of it once they can do anything again

[AllanGand]

juggs are awesome at both tanking and dps. You just need to get used to it and forget about rage. 1 trick pony specs are absolutely retarded, if you want dps do it in vengeance. If you get lucky with the procs you will have the highest dps in game.

 

And in pvp yeah you can't take a ton of damage cause your armor doesn't mean squat. Juggs are still some of the best healer killers out there after ops/scoundrels. A vengeance jugg will dispose of a healer within 4-5 moves.

 

You simply need to learn how to use everything to your advantage, this class isn't for the FOTM rollers.

[Deamon_Samurai]

Juggernauts are real good at what they do if played fairly properly. I am not much of a PvPer, and not geared as such, but have recently done some PVP and have ranked in the top 5, 8 out of 10 times in damage. PvE they are even better in my opinion if you go in with a strategy and not just Schwarzenegger it. I have pretty much quit playing my 50 BH because I enjoy the Jugger Veng DPS so much. And the abilities we have are far mor fun to play with and serve a purpose against any class. Edited April 24, 2012 by Deamon_Samurai

[Benevon]

Against maras and sents I always save choke for guarded by the force/undying rage, choke + force push means they're out of it once they can do anything again

 

That is usually what I do. Of course sometimes if they just took somebody else down that blew all their cc, I have to deal with that ridiculous resolve system.

 

 

Juggs are the best at being kited and resource starved as a consequence in PVP. They are also the BEST at taking twice as much effort to accomplish anything compared to any other class except Guardian. Hope this helped.

 

Maybe immortal or rage has more resource issues, but as veng as I am usually swimming in rage. I'm almost never top in damage, but hit top two overall most games through medals and objectives, and usually top two in just protection through taunts and intercede (unless there is an overabundance of good tanks).

[KorinHyvek]

Maybe immortal or rage has more resource issues, but as veng as I am usually swimming in rage. I'm almost never top in damage, but hit top two overall most games through medals and objectives, and usually top two in just protection through taunts and intercede (unless there is an overabundance of good tanks).

 

Don't know about Rage, but in PvE, full Immortal spec shouldn't have any rage issues (In PvP, the reliance on being focused on can be a problem). The problem is a lot of tanks (including myself) go with a hybrid build, and don't have sweeping fury (and thus, their rage generation isn't sufficient for the higher rage demands of a Vengeance Hybrid build). Ultimately, you can go Vengeance hybrid for the better Damage potential (PRobably best for PvP tanking), or you can go Immortal for better rage management and more sustained damage in PvE.

[Elyx]

seriously OP....

 

If you base your decisions on whats good and whats not from these forums, you should probably just head out and roll a FOTM class.

 

I hear all the players who rage/quit their Sorcerors went over to the maurader side. ...you can go join the crowd if following the forum trolls is your game.

 

There are many peeps who PvP and PvE just fine with Jugg's. But they are not a FOTM class, nor a class for those who want an easier approach to everything.

 

No class is a guarantee of anything. skill still counts. Had a PT that I ran with the other night...they asked him to step down and asked me to tank instead. healer and DPS were much happier.

 

A well played jugg is a great class, and people whisper you with requests . A poorly played Jugg is a poster-boy. It's up to you what you want to be.

[Dacadus]

Yet another L2P thread.

[Vid-szhite]

Maybe immortal or rage has more resource issues, but as veng as I am usually swimming in rage. I'm almost never top in damage, but hit top two overall most games through medals and objectives, and usually top two in just protection through taunts and intercede (unless there is an overabundance of good tanks).

 

Yep. I usually have so much rage that I don't even care if I use Enraged Defense.

[Vid-szhite]

I have been reading on the forum abit. about juggers.

 

My general conclusion is: Jugger is MEDIOCRE. not realy good at anything when compared.

they dont have anything that stand out.

 

Tanking: Power techs do it ALOT easier, and better survival overall. same with Assassins.

 

Dps: Juggers can do some fun burst smash dmg. but thats it. (oh, and patch just made mara even stronger).

Comparing jugger to maruder. wich is our Family member...

we suck compared to maras dps and even defensive cooldowns...

 

if i dont remember wrong.. i think juggers is supposed to be a Juggernauth... that means having the best defensive cooldowns...

 

Juggers have advantage to jump into Soresu form to increase armor over maruder.

but what good is that.. you are so rage starved its just silly... you living on autoattacking. and that deals no dmg.

And the extra armor you get is still useless since in pvp, almost everything is about Elemental or Internal dmg

wich passing right thru the armor.

 

SO iam practically running around naked against many classes.

 

so.. jugger.. is mediocre...

 

Show me something where jugger shines over other classes when compared.

 

 

 

OP, all I can say is if you place any class into a worst-case scenario, a perfect storm of all our weaknesses being exploited all at once and all the time, it will of course underperform. The fallacy here is that you seem to think these worst case scenarios are common, and that a Marauder would have it ANY better if they were thrust into that same situation.

 

First of all, discounting Vengeance as a viable DPS spec when it is probably stronger than Rage in every way except AoE now is absurd. Juggernauts with Vengeance excel at running the huttball, even more than tanks do, because of Unstoppable and the ability to drop into Soresu form at a moment's notice. Vengeance Juggernauts excel at staying on target and using the enemy's own slows and immobilizes against them. Vengeance excels at baiting CC and absorbing it, and is probably the best at finishing people off with our auto-crit Vicious Throws. We have the best mobility in the entire game. People up on platforms or across the fire mean nothing to us, we just jump over it and are instantly in range with them, and once in range, we can't be knocked back out. We can even jump to allies, either because those allies are standing next to the person trying to kite us, or because we need to run away, or because we need to move the huttball. Force Speed has nothing on Force Charge and Intercede.

 

Oh, and in a large brawl, we cause the entire enemy team to do 30% less damage unless they focus on us, and we don't even have to stop DPSing or switch to Soresu. Preventing damage is just as valuable as healing, except there's no green numbers to tell everyone about it.

 

Marauders have lots of defensive cooldowns and some short-duration, long-cooldown team buffs, that's it. They have a reputation on the forums as being hard to kill, but only because of Undying Rage and using Force Camo to run away. Truth is, they need those cooldowns to survive any kind of assault. Without that, they are quite squishy and will die even faster than Operatives, who can not only take damage reduction talents in their DPS trees, but Endurance+ talents and Healing Received+ talents.

 

Believe it or not, internal and elemental damage is very uncommon aside from fighting Annihilation Marauders, but even that isn't all they do. They still use lots of lightsaber attacks, because they have to in order to land their dots. Armor mitigates almost everything in PvP, with a few exceptions in a few ultimate abilities or a couple of weak (non-Annihilation) dots, so we don't need defensive cooldowns every fight like Marauders do. If you took away their defensive cooldowns, they would be gimped, and you would be hearing all about how Juggs are so much better because they can actually survive and do the exact same damage.

 

Speaking of which, Juggernauts do the exact same damage as Marauders. It's true. Marauder Rage is pretty much the exact same thing, maybe with a few changed talents. Juggernauts can even get more armor penetration through sundering assault and have a 40% bonus instead of 20%. Juggernauts can also get FREE Force Screams every time they Obliterate and Force Charge. Juggernauts can also boost their strength by 6%. I think you'll find the only difference between Marauders and Juggernauts with Rage is the defensive cooldowns - Berserk in Shii-Cho does nothing except give you 6 free Vicious Slashes that might strike someone else if two people are exactly adjacent to one another. Oh boy!

 

You want to talk about Carnage? The only thing Carnage does better than Vengeance is have 100% armor penetration for a few seconds with Gore and stronger crits with Force Scream. Vengeance has internal damage (Shatter), very fast cooldowns and low rage costs on ALL its abilities (not just Force Scream), crits on Vicious Throw, giving us killing power in PvP and more finishing power on bosses, and can potentially reset the cooldown on Ravage on every rotation, getting two to three times more use out of it. Knock the standard Vengeance dots if you like, they're a lot like having that armor penetration.

 

Because every noob seems to think the comparison applies, yes, I know Annihilation has superior dots. Honestly, there's no spec that could possibly touch Annihilation's DoTs, because that is literally all Annihilation gets in terms of buffs until Annihilate at the end of the tree. I also know Annihilation gets very potent heals through its dots. I cannot make a direct comparison because Annihilation is nothing like the other Warrior specs, but all I can say is, either Annihilation is still overpowered and will be brought in line, or Vengeance can do similar damage without needing to rely on dots. I'm leaning towards the latter, because aside from the one full-WH Sentinel on my server, who has actually broken 100k healing, I've either outdamaged or matched them all. Guess what else? One time, a Vigilance Guardian outdamaged that full-WH Sentinel.

 

Want to know what Juggernauts excel at? Everything a Marauder does, except we don't need 20 cooldowns to survive a gentle breeze.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[Morsexy]

As a raid leader with a combat log with a Jugg and Powertech tank in Hardmode EC... they take exactly the same amount of damage. Each tank switches on Toth and Zorn, and at the end of the pull\night they are within 5% of each other.

 

Sometimes one is higher, or lower, but that is the randomness of the game. The juggernaut has worse defensive stats given the itemization of the gear for this encounter, so .

 

 

As for DPS, it does look like currently given the climate of the raids, more like a traditional WoW hard mode encounter, where there is just oodles of damage, Vengeance is the better spec. Not so much for the damage, but the ability to mitigate so much damage when played that way in the current gear set up.

 

Once gear can again be itemized the way it was pre 1.2, I think rage will pull ahead, but we need the war hero gear armorings + PVE gear itemized for power which is currently impossible to do, I don't know this for certain, but given the fact that the gear is currently poorly itemized for Rage, and Vengeance is itemized fine, and their respective damages are within roughly 5-10% of each other depending on a whole host of factors I'm fairly confident.

 

As for the rest, our damage is exactly in the pack as best as I can tell, with snipers and mercs a bit (5%) lower in full Rakata gear but with the advantage of range and higher burst potential.

 

 

I think Jugg at times can be somewhat cumbersome, but our power in PVP is unrivaled. As Rage, I can single handedly change the course of a 5v5 while being focused and helping to guard all my teammates. There is not a class in the game that can do even half of that played well.

[Vid-szhite]

As a raid leader with a combat log with a Jugg and Powertech tank in Hardmode EC... they take exactly the same amount of damage. Each tank switches on Toth and Zorn, and at the end of the pull\night they are within 5% of each other.

 

Sometimes one is higher, or lower, but that is the randomness of the game. The juggernaut has worse defensive stats given the itemization of the gear for this encounter, so .

 

 

As for DPS, it does look like currently given the climate of the raids, more like a traditional WoW hard mode encounter, where there is just oodles of damage, Vengeance is the better spec. Not so much for the damage, but the ability to mitigate so much damage when played that way in the current gear set up.

 

Once gear can again be itemized the way it was pre 1.2, I think rage will pull ahead, but we need the war hero gear armorings + PVE gear itemized for power which is currently impossible to do, I don't know this for certain, but given the fact that the gear is currently poorly itemized for Rage, and Vengeance is itemized fine, and their respective damages are within roughly 5-10% of each other depending on a whole host of factors I'm fairly confident.

 

As for the rest, our damage is exactly in the pack as best as I can tell, with snipers and mercs a bit (5%) lower in full Rakata gear but with the advantage of range and higher burst potential.

 

 

I think Jugg at times can be somewhat cumbersome, but our power in PVP is unrivaled. As Rage, I can single handedly change the course of a 5v5 while being focused and helping to guard all my teammates. There is not a class in the game that can do even half of that played well.

 

Amen, brother.

[tulisin]

Once gear can again be itemized the way it was pre 1.2, I think rage will pull ahead, but we need the war hero gear armorings + PVE gear itemized for power which is currently impossible to do, I don't know this for certain, but given the fact that the gear is currently poorly itemized for Rage, and Vengeance is itemized fine, and their respective damages are within roughly 5-10% of each other depending on a whole host of factors I'm fairly confident.

 

For PvP I'm certain rage has more overall damage potential just due to the multiplicative effect on clustered enemiesl, but I can't ever see it pulling ahead on single-target PvE fights. Even a great smash crit doesn't stack up that well against the now-useful ravage, and only vengeance has ravage spam potential. Vengeance also gets much higher end-of-fight burst damage via being able to greatly increase the chance of vicious throw crits. Big smashes are always impressive, but vengeance has competitively damaging abilities that don't really require any setup beyond simply maintaining a proper rotation

[Morsexy]

For PvP I'm certain rage has more overall damage potential just due to the multiplicative effect on clustered enemiesl, but I can't ever see it pulling ahead on single-target PvE fights. Even a great smash crit doesn't stack up that well against the now-useful ravage, and only vengeance has ravage spam potential. Vengeance also gets much higher end-of-fight burst damage via being able to greatly increase the chance of vicious throw crits. Big smashes are always impressive, but vengeance has competitively damaging abilities that don't really require any setup beyond simply maintaining a proper rotation

 

I'm interested to see myself.

 

I'm 99.99% certain rage was better for PvE pre 1.2, just given the very specific nerfs to the Rage tree that didn't overly hurt us in PVP, but absolutely wonked the PvE rotation out the window. What I was doing was not overly intutitive, and most people might not have been trying it, but you had 25 seconds out of 60 seconds of 10% damage bonus + 9 sec CD on scream and smash.

 

I still think that the highly mobile nature of rage lends itself to this playstyle even with the CD nerfs to smash and forcescream, but I have to work out a new rotation.

[Darth_Sookie]

In PvP we are very potent.

We have the somewhat unique position of being able to deliver a TON of on demand burst while still guarding/taunting in tank stance. (Rage). Vengeance offers good single target damage and more survivability when playing in soresu.

[Ulfr_Lynnedslag]

in pvp, the only reason a jugg should have rage issues is if hes being kited.

 

in pve, if your having rage issues, Learn to play.

 

once you get enrage, you should never have rage issues, period. I find myself maxed out on rage if I dont dump it into vicious slashes. but I rarely need to. force charge > slam > sundering assault > Assault > force scream > assault > Reposite > Sundering assault. The secret to our class is to build a few, and spend a few, build a few, and spend a few. dont try to build too much, or sit there wondering where our resources are, we need to build them up.

[tufy]

First, let's make one thing clear:

 

I have been reading on the forum abit.

 

Don't. Your usual reply to forum whines should be this:

 

Now that this is out of the way - my post will approach the topic from the perspective of someone who has played a Guardian (both in pvp and pve) up to and including level 50 in all three specs, while also leveling a Juggernaut and a Marauder to around level 20. If a jedi talent name creeps up somewhere in the text, I profoundly apologize, but the classes are the same anyway.

 

Overall, the class can be just as strong as any other, but you have to decide what you want to do and then stick to it. You can't just mash buttons, then depend on cooldowns / control to get you out of it, that won't work. Second, Juggernauts / Guardians really are all about gear. Have them properly equipped and they'll be monsters, have them in crap gear and they'll be flat on the ground in half a second. The difference for, say, a Sage is far lesser - noticeable, yes, but lesser.

 

One thing I see juggled around is the use of Soresu as nontank. Generally, it's a very, very bad idea. There are a few situations where Soresu can help (such as being the ball carrier in Huttball or buying time before reinforcements arrive), but even in those situations you'll want to have a shield generator equipped to get at least something out of it. The huge advantage over the other two tanks is that we can do this on a whim - we can switch from Shien to Soresu, Guard someone, then jump back to Shien as soon as people stop attacking him, something that the other two simply can't pull off. That's something that can save the day far more often than most people realize.

 

That said, a dps Juggernaut is still a dps Juggernaut. Most opt for Rage, because it can build respectable Smash bombs, but now that Decimate is in Rage tree, Marauders will probably pull it off better. I actually prefer Vigilance build because while it's harder to pull off in pvp, the results can be quite astonishing in proper player's hands. As someone who has also played a Shadow (Assassin equivalent) quite a lot, I actually prefer the post 1.2 Vigilance Guardian. It doesn't have stealth, but beyond that, it's just as good or better.

 

On the topic of defensive cooldowns, this one's a bit wierd. While Juggernaut generally survives more punishment than Marauder, the latter have a few cooldowns that make them quite annoying to fight against. One such example is Undying rage - that 99% damage reduction is VERY noticeable, while Endure Pain or Enraged Defense are rarely going to be noted, yet if not used well, Marauder's cooldown can quickly end up as nothing but "delayed death". Overall this makes the public impression that Marauders are yay while Juggs are nay. If, however, you put an equally good player on one of each, you'd be hard pressed to bet on the winner - in fact, I'd dare say that, due to relying less on active defenses than your average Sage or Shadow (active defense = abilities that fill resolve bar, for instance stuns), Juggernaut might even come on top reliably.

 

Plus, Marauders are a fotm, while Juggernauts are not. That's a win on its own

 

Oh, one more thing (PvE this time ): when I leveled my Guardian, I was switching between Defense and Vigilance quite a bit. I would have sworn that Vigilance was utter poo up until about level 34 or so, at which point it suddenly started shining. I don't know whether something changed in the class or I simply got used to it, but now that I'm leveling a Juggernaut, I don't experience such issues - at level 20, the Vengeance Jugg is still shredding things ad shows no signs of stopping. Maybe I'm just gearing her better this time

Edited April 25, 2012 by tufy

[Livic]

You are basing your conclusion on things you have read...on these forums?

 

Read less, play more, and form your own opinion.

 

Juggernaut is really strong at everything it does, if played properly.

 

Riôt

 

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lw7vqhVX6P1qfpxdz.gif

[ExpLiciTSainT]

 

One thing I see juggled around is the use of Soresu as nontank. Generally, it's a very, very bad idea. There are a few situations where Soresu can help (such as being the ball carrier in Huttball or buying time before reinforcements arrive), but even in those situations you'll want to have a shield generator equipped to get at least something out of it.

 

Yep - Soresu is not a good form for PVP IMO. And for buying time? I even disagree there. In some cases as rage spec with full cooldowns, I can 1v2 a healer and a person near them and keep the node. I even have moments where I've beat 1 v 2, then a 3rd. The best thing to stop someone from taking a node is to kill them. If a group of people attack you, you're dead, even with more damage mitigation. You might get 1 more second, maybe.

[Cassp]

Juggernauts are inferior to assassins in every way to Assassins. Less damage, less health, less avoidance and assassins save healers mana by having a load of self healing, which is crucial in denova hard. The only redeeming quality is juggs have more life saving cooldowns, which really isn't enough.