Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[JediElf]

Catching the plague from someone else is not griefing...

 

Getting PVP flagged from someone else (and then getting gank killed...) IS griefing.

 

 

The PVP fllag part is all they need to fix. Spreading the plague... not an issue.

 

I agree.

 

The PVP flagging bug really needs to be fixed. It's kinda sad to see so many people who can't tell the difference between a PVP, and a PVE server. I guess real PVP is dead, it's all just greifing now.

[Drakkip]

Are you suggesting that someone infecting you with the virus qualifies as "pvp?"

 

What he was referring to was:

 

Scenario 1

Neither player being pvp flagged and Faction A explodes next to faction B. Faction B player is infected and NOT flagged by becoming infected.

 

Scenario 2

Faction A player just before exploding toggles their pvp flag on. Upon infection Faction B player is now also PvP flagged.

 

Usually under scenario 2 the newly infected and "flagged" player was instantly ganked by additional players from Faction A waiting in the wings. This topic/bug has been brought up in multiple threads and it's a big head scratcher to me as to how it could be considered to be working as intended.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Drakkip

[Calsetes]

Yes, somebody flagged for pvp exploding on you did cause your flag to activate. You doing nothing else but standing there will get you the same result. You can call it a bug, exploit, whatever you wish. However it does not change the fact that getting exploded on by someone who was flagged made you flag, with zero input from you.

 

Exactly - I was flagged for PvP by someone from the opposing faction when I was:

 

-By myself

-Not attacking anyone or anything. Even when they attacked me after they got me flagged, I DID NOT ATTACK

-Not healing or buffing anyone or anything

-Standing there without a vaccine on because I want to catch a cold

 

I made a ginormous thread about this pointing out this one issue with the event. Only thing I can think of is when you explode, it counts as you debuffing everyone around you. Debuffing everyone around you flags you for PvP if you are either debuffing someone who is flagged (just like if I punched them in the face) or are debuffed by someone who is flagged (which might have to "turn on" the PvP flag to be eligible for catching an infection from a flagged player.) If they do this again in the future, maybe they should look into making sure only PvP-flagged players infect other PvP-flagged players, and PvE-flagged players only flag other PvE-flagged players. Assuming they can't stop flagging with the infection through normal means, at least.

[Roccobb]

The only griefing I saw was in relation to the PVP flagging issue. Even then it was all completely avoidable. You had to spend a measily few mins to do a quest and get 1 serum or better yet just buy it from the hundreds of vendors selling it. Or just walk around the explosion radius. Everyone knew there was a circle of infected people on the fleet pass spot simply avoid using the fleet pass or make sure you were vaccinated it wasn't that hard.

 

Its not like the wow event where you couldn't avoid it at all and it also killed NPCs including quest NPCs which was griefing and ridiculousness.

 

Anyone calling the infection circles or the event mechanics 'griefing' have no idea what griefing is. Griefing is chasing a person down and stealing all their kills, all the chests they're moving for, all the nodes they're trying to farm for craft materials. Griefing is purposely finding ways to set someone's flag to PVP that didn't want to PVP and killing them or getting them killed.

 

The event only caused a grief like feeling for those that were not using the readily available vaccine. You could of opted out and you didnt what happened after that was the fault of the player.

 

Yes, so easy to avoid... Buy a vaccine, die. Buy it again. While fighting an elite mob, somebody running up to you and exploding is not avoidable.

 

As to why I am still talking about it, again, I hope they take these issues into consideration. They said during the interview on mos eisley that this event will never be repeated. However, if any future events have similar mechanics, they do need to look into making it better. Hence why I am still putting my input out there.

[Roccobb]

Oh nozzz my caratar iz infected!! Whatamigundo? Oh noz i xplodeds!! I get to revive ezactly where i am and take no gear damge but lol i dont like thus!!! Change it!!

 

And still be flagged and killed by the same level 50 character who killed you the first time. Then they followed me to the medics droid, who was not surrounded by any other npc's and killed me there. That made that character unplayable. And again, customer service told me working as intended.

[Hiply]

What griefing? All you had to do was take a rakghoul serum and you'd be immune to the plague.

 

Right, all I have to do is be extorted out of 2k every 6 hours (or death, whichever comes first) in order to play grief-free...brilliant.

[amantheil]

(duplicate post delete) Edited April 24, 2012 by amantheil

[JerokTalram]

The exploiting of AoE to flag another person is just that, an exploit. Report them for it, names, levels, class, AC, time, place, circumstances, and server, plus your information as well. Forced into PvP while you are questing and fighting a mob, is a cowardly way to "gain" a kill for lowly griefers, and is an exploit that does need to be rectified.

 

The AoE exploit was suppose to have been fixed. Is it still working?

 

From what I understand, the pvp flagged players were attacking mobs that the pve player was about to engage and for some reason if you attack a mob being attacked by a PvP flagged player of the opposing faction, You get flagged. So yet a new exploit.

 

The PvP flagged players were also exploding near pve players to infect them. The problem is it not only infected them but flagged them for PvP. So that was a new exploit that got abused. However with the vaccine that was easily avoided. So it shouldn't have happened to anyone more than once.

[Ichikitsune]

All Bioware had to do is have some Elite Containment Soldiers patrol the Space Station and take out anyone who is infected.... This would of kept the Space Station free of the disease and discourage players from camping on the station and provide a safe zone....

 

Their other mistake was they should of made the serum free instead of charging 2k credits.....

 

Pretty simple solution but as usually over looked by Bioware....

 

They did if you were infected and went to the hangers, two lvl 50 silvers. You had to kill or be killed to continue.

[Roccobb]

They did if you were infected and went to the hangers, two lvl 50 silvers. You had to kill or be killed to continue.

 

Lol, you got silvers? I got guys who my sage seer was able to defeat without a companion, in like 3 seconds.

[Uthyr]

While it may not effect one directly, the enviroment becomes degraded, and will eventually spoil play for all those in such environs. Ignoring the problems around does not mean they are not extant.

 

Seriously.

 

 

Right.. the entire enviroment becomes degraded because some people are getting griefed and that will spoil play for everyone. like i said before.. stop blowing things out of proportions. I can understand that the affected people dont like it and i dont argue against that point, but stop saying it affects 'Everyone' and the whole game will degrade and become unplayable for (again) everyone. Because thats simply rubish.

 

I'm not ignoring problems, just asking people to put things in a normal perspective and stop acting as if the world will explode if this or that does or does not happen. Stop with the drama and simply state things for what they are.

[Malastare]

If they do this again in the future, maybe they should look into making sure only PvP-flagged players infect other PvP-flagged players, and PvE-flagged players only flag other PvE-flagged players. Assuming they can't stop flagging with the infection through normal means, at least.

 

It seems easier than that.

 

First: Any buffs/debuffs against any character when that character is not currently engaged in PvP battle should not cause the casting player to be flagged for PvP. This means that all buffs, regardless of source, target, or location would not flag you in non-combat situations. Also, you can freely buff players who are engaged in PvE battles regardless of faction.

 

Next: Buffs/debuffs caused by uncontrolled or triggered events should be marked as being "environmental" and never cause the source to be flagged for PvP.

 

These rules would still allow a small number of situations which might trigger an involuntary PvP flagging (eg: you go to apply a standard, friendly buff to a PvP flagged ally without knowing that they just initiated a PvP fight and are currently in a pre-cast state), but they would be a strict subset of the situations which cause flagging today. Yes, this would mean that a non-PvP flagged ally could pre-buff a friend just before a PvP battle. However, I see that as a much smaller concern than the amount of involuntary PvP flagging that has been happening since release.

 

And, still: Calling plague spreading "griefing" is simply silly.

[Ichikitsune]

Ironically, it seemed to be seen more by -----> PvE servers and players, I believe.

 

That's cause the PVP server players have a different definition for what greifing is.

[Ichikitsune]

Lol, you got silvers? I got guys who my sage seer was able to defeat without a companion, in like 3 seconds.

h

Never said they were a hard fight, just there.

[Roccobb]

It seems easier than that.

 

First: Any buffs/debuffs against any character when that character is not currently engaged in PvP battle should not cause the casting player to be flagged for PvP. This means that all buffs, regardless of source, target, or location would not flag you in non-combat situations. Also, you can freely buff players who are engaged in PvE battles regardless of faction.

 

Next: Buffs/debuffs caused by uncontrolled or triggered events should be marked as being "environmental" and never cause the source to be flagged for PvP.

 

These rules would still allow a small number of situations which might trigger an involuntary PvP flagging (eg: you go to apply a standard, friendly buff to a PvP flagged ally without knowing that they just initiated a PvP fight and are currently in a pre-cast state), but they would be a strict subset of the situations which cause flagging today. Yes, this would mean that a non-PvP flagged ally could pre-buff a friend just before a PvP battle. However, I see that as a much smaller concern than the amount of involuntary PvP flagging that has been happening since release.

 

And, still: Calling plague spreading "griefing" is simply silly.

 

I would still prefer to give me an error that I cannot heal that person. May frustrate me for a second and then realize they are pvp. If doing a fp, make them unflag and wait 5 min. No big deal. But I want nothing, except entering imp territory to flag me, unless I flag myself. Nothing short of that.

[JediElf]

I would still prefer to give me an error that I cannot heal that person. May frustrate me for a second and then realize they are pvp. If doing a fp, make them unflag and wait 5 min. No big deal. But I want nothing, except entering imp territory to flag me, unless I flag myself. Nothing short of that.

 

May I also suggest a' PVP Always Off 'option. That's what I want. Then I wont heal PVP players, I can't ever enter a PVP zone, and if someone tags my mobs I wont be flagged, ever.

[Drakkip]

I agree.

 

The PVP flagging bug really needs to be fixed. It's kinda sad to see so many people who can't tell the difference between a PVP, and a PVE server. I guess real PVP is dead, it's all just greifing now.

 

I don't know that pvp is dead per se, although I do agree with you in principle. As I have gotten older and life has changed (kids) my preference of playstyle is also impacted by their experience when they also play. When my 7 year old wants to play the same game as dad, so I let him start a character and somewhere around level 20 he comes into the room tears streaming down his face because some level 70 keep killing him over and over again as he spawns, it changed my perspective on PvP vs PvE servers.

 

I find that it's rare to find anyone who wants the good pitched close fight anymore. Case in point was sometime before 1.2 but full champion gear into my toon I realized I still had the Tatooine PvP quest. So I head on out there to get the quest out of my log (as it couldn't be abandoned). I mention this over guild chat and a couple of guildies figure they'll head out there as well.

 

As I get out there I see a single sith, who dismounts and attacks me. No biggie I did enter the zone I have in all aspects consented to this, so we go at it and he dies.

 

Shorlty after our skirmish my 2 guildies show up. He returns with 2 buddies from his guild and the 3 of them I am guessing expect to run into just me run into the 3 of us. It's a pitched close battle and we lose. No big deal we talk about strategy briefly and return. Same pitched close battle but we win. We proceed to win the next 5-10 times they come back sometimes we take a death,but usually we don't take a death.

 

To me this was fun, even numbers similar group make up

them = Assassin/Sorc/Merc vs

us = Shadow/Commando/Scoundrel

 

After about the 10th close win they show up with 4 more guildies. The net result was our Commando died and the shadow and scoundrel stealthed off. They killed everything back to our medic center and proceeded to camp the medic center, killing our Commando a couple of more times. A WZ popped and the 3 of us left. When we came back from the WZ there were now like 10 of them camping the outpost.

 

As soon as we zone back in from the WZ we are no longer PvP flagged and they start calling us ******* etc.. for not flagging when they now outnumber us 10 v 3... which to me is just a big chuckle...

 

I think that is what is wrong with a lot of PvP in general. Most of the time it seems like people want to be overwhelmingly winning, instead of close pitched battles.

 

I guess to each his own, my preference is to lose a close battle than gank someone with overwhelming numbers or levels, but that's just me /shrug.

[XElementalX]

This is not griefing.

 

Stop blowing even the tiniest discomfort out of proportions.

 

 

What was the worst thing that the disease could do?

 

You died a virtual death?

[terminova]

That's why I wish we could kill same faction, like Shadowbane allowed us to do.

Bad actions had consquences, but carebear games like this one, WoW,

 

WoW actually put the zombified players into a separate faction the main factions could kill, and certain abilities of some of the healing classes could remove the infection debuff. Many players were actively doing that and killing off the zombies to the extreme ire of the players who were intentionally trying to zombify themselves because they wanted to wipe out the lowbie leveling areas. Yes, they were rather livid as some of the whispers they sent indicated. Because of that they decided to go to Shattrath where no one could attack them at all.

 

This is not griefing.

 

Stop blowing even the tiniest discomfort out of proportions.

 

What was the worst thing that the disease could do?

 

You died a virtual death?

 

Actually, some of what was happening was, in fact, griefing.

Edited April 24, 2012 by terminova

[Roccobb]

I don't know that pvp is dead per se, although I do agree with you in principle. As I have gotten older and life has changed (kids) my preference of playstyle is also impacted by their experience when they also play. When my 7 year old wants to play the same game as dad, so I let him start a character and somewhere around level 20 he comes into the room tears streaming down his face because some level 70 keep killing him over and over again as he spawns, it changed my perspective on PvP vs PvE servers.

 

I find that it's rare to find anyone who wants the good pitched close fight anymore. Case in point was sometime before 1.2 but full champion gear into my toon I realized I still had the Tatooine PvP quest. So I head on out there to get the quest out of my log (as it couldn't be abandoned). I mention this over guild chat and a couple of guildies figure they'll head out there as well.

 

As I get out there I see a single sith, who dismounts and attacks me. No biggie I did enter the zone I have in all aspects consented to this, so we go at it and he dies.

 

Shorlty after our skirmish my 2 guildies show up. He returns with 2 buddies from his guild and the 3 of them I am guessing expect to run into just me run into the 3 of us. It's a pitched close battle and we lose. No big deal we talk about strategy briefly and return. Same pitched close battle but we win. We proceed to win the next 5-10 times they come back sometimes we take a death,but usually we don't take a death.

 

To me this was fun, even numbers similar group make up

them = Assassin/Sorc/Merc vs

us = Shadow/Commando/Scoundrel

 

After about the 10th close win they show up with 4 more guildies. The net result was our Commando died and the shadow and scoundrel stealthed off. They killed everything back to our medic center and proceeded to camp the medic center, killing our Commando a couple of more times. A WZ popped and the 3 of us left. When we came back from the WZ there were now like 10 of them camping the outpost.

 

As soon as we zone back in from the WZ we are no longer PvP flagged and they start calling us ******* etc.. for not flagging when they now outnumber us 10 v 3... which to me is just a big chuckle...

 

I think that is what is wrong with a lot of PvP in general. Most of the time it seems like people want to be overwhelmingly winning, instead of close pitched battles.

 

I guess to each his own, my preference is to lose a close battle than gank someone with overwhelming numbers or levels, but that's just me /shrug.

 

Imo, every medics droid needs to have a one shot kills champion next to it.

[DieAlteHexe]

May I also suggest a' PVP Always Off 'option. That's what I want. Then I wont heal PVP players, I can't ever enter a PVP zone, and if someone tags my mobs I wont be flagged, ever.

 

+1

 

(moar chars.)

[Elhanan]

Right.. the entire enviroment becomes degraded because some people are getting griefed and that will spoil play for everyone. like i said before.. stop blowing things out of proportions. I can understand that the affected people dont like it and i dont argue against that point, but stop saying it affects 'Everyone' and the whole game will degrade and become unplayable for (again) everyone. Because thats simply rubish.

 

I'm not ignoring problems, just asking people to put things in a normal perspective and stop acting as if the world will explode if this or that does or does not happen. Stop with the drama and simply state things for what they are.

 

If the Griefing and Griefers are allowed to continue unchallenged, and even some of their victims leave the game, then this would seem to lessenr the overall quality of the game. And tthen given time, what started as a small incident may grow into more typical behaviour, and the cycle continues.

 

I ask Bioware for some oractical Griefing bud nipping,

[Elhanan]

A partial definition from Bioware; under In Game Harassment:

Zone Disruption

 

This refers to disrupting locations within the game so that it inhibits the play of or provides a level of disruption to other players. This can include excessive disruption of player sponsored events or gatherings, excessive use of sounds or visuals, blocking areas of the game, pulling creatures over and over so no one else may kill them, and killing specific vendors, key creatures or quest givers for no reason other than to cause disruption or ‘grief’ to others.

 

From Dictioary.com:

World English Dictionary

griefer or grief player (ˈɡriːfə)

— n

an online game player who intentionally spoils the game for other players

grief player or grief player

— n

[Elhanan]

The only griefing I saw was in relation to the PVP flagging issue. Even then it was all completely avoidable. You had to spend a measily few mins to do a quest and get 1 serum or better yet just buy it from the hundreds of vendors selling it. Or just walk around the explosion radius. Everyone knew there was a circle of infected people on the fleet pass spot simply avoid using the fleet pass or make sure you were vaccinated it wasn't that hard.

 

Its not like the wow event where you couldn't avoid it at all and it also killed NPCs including quest NPCs which was griefing and ridiculousness.

 

Anyone calling the infection circles or the event mechanics 'griefing' have no idea what griefing is. Griefing is chasing a person down and stealing all their kills, all the chests they're moving for, all the nodes they're trying to farm for craft materials. Griefing is purposely finding ways to set someone's flag to PVP that didn't want to PVP and killing them or getting them killed.

 

The event only caused a grief like feeling for those that were not using the readily available vaccine. You could of opted out and you didnt what happened after that was the fault of the player.

 

Participation by taking a vaccine after being infected is not opting out; sorry.

 

Not all Stim and Med vendors had serum; not all victims had ships yet. First night, there was not a mass of glowing Green Gooey Griefers; only one as far as I know that chose a Rest Area of a PvE server to detonate.

[GreySix]

Ironically, it seemed to be seen more by -----> PvE servers and players, I believe.

 

Indeed, because griefers tend to go for easy targets since they get their fourth points of contact handed to them against those seeking PvP play.

Edited April 24, 2012 by GreySix