Griefing: Everyone's Problem

[Elhanan]

Not really an assumption... more like deductive reasoning. Your fear of griefing is plain to see. Griefing will never end; as long as there are people that thrive on the misery of others it will exist. That said, this game has a much griefing as any other MMO that I've played in the last several years... very little.

 

You couldn't be more wrong about UO.... UO declined due to progress. EQ came out and UO's numbers declined drastically. However, the fact that UO peaked at about 250k subscribers and had about 100k subscribers in 2009, 12 years after it came out, is a testament to how successful the game was.

 

Not sure how the game changed, but I can say when I left in 99 (when EQ came out), there was almost no protection from griefers in the game, and in the 2 years I played I had never been griefed. So whether that's a testament to luck, my ability to avoid griefing, or the rarity of griefing I cannot say... but I suspect it's due to rarity.

 

Then along with me, Sherlock Holmes you ain't.....

 

EQ had quite a lot of appeal for the Eye Candy crowd, as well as being the new game, as well as Asheron's Call. But the most prevelant complaint from all these MMO's were about PK and Griefing.

 

Personally, I am quite happy with the smaller NWN1 PW's and community, and am glad I have given SWTOR the time. Sadly due to the enormous population and the greater number of ill mannered Players, the worst part of the RPG is the MMO, so am quite content continuing the solo play for now.

[Dralanna]

Then along with me, Sherlock Holmes you ain't.....

Sure

 

EQ had quite a lot of appeal for the Eye Candy crowd, as well as being the new game, as well as Asheron's Call. But the most prevelant complaint from all these MMO's were about PK and Griefing.

 

Once again you are wrong. PKing was non existent in EQ unless you actually played on a PvP server (I think there were only 2 or 3 of those). In the 5 or so years I played EQ, I think I only once saw someone flagged for PvP and I'm assuming it was an accident. I never played AC beyond the beta, so I can't speak to that... but I can certainly say that I never heard anyone ever complain about PKing in EQ. The biggest complaint was people training you (ie. intentionally rounding up a bunch of mobs and leading them to your location). Even that was somewhat rare (the intentional training.... accidental trains happened a lot).

 

Personally, I am quite happy with the smaller NWN1 PW's and community, and am glad I have given SWTOR the time. Sadly due to the enormous population and the greater number of ill mannered Players, the worst part of the RPG is the MMO, so am quite content continuing the solo play for now.

 

How exactly are you encountering these "ill mannered players"? You play with chat off, you don't group, so where are you coming across them? You must play on the worst server of all... I've encountered tons of helpful, friendly people. I don't think I've had a bad experience yet, though, like you, I generally play solo. Just not exclusively solo.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Dralanna

[Valkirus]

Not really an assumption... more like deductive reasoning. Your fear of griefing is plain to see. Griefing will never end; as long as there are people that thrive on the misery of others it will exist. That said, this game has a much griefing as any other MMO that I've played in the last several years... very little.

 

 

 

You couldn't be more wrong about UO.... UO declined due to progress. EQ came out and UO's numbers declined drastically. However, the fact that UO peaked at about 250k subscribers and had about 100k subscribers in 2009, 12 years after it came out, is a testament to how successful the game was.

 

Not sure how the game changed, but I can say when I left in 99 (when EQ came out), there was almost no protection from griefers in the game, and in the 2 years I played I had never been griefed. So whether that's a testament to luck, my ability to avoid griefing, or the rarity of griefing I cannot say... but I suspect it's due to rarity.

 

You was lucky. I played it for about a year and half. And getting attacked by gangs of pkers when you was alone was very common. The change to the Runes of Recall was the main reason I left. And also I found out a lot of the pker gangs were Origin employees. Setting at the servers with no lag and killing players who where mostly on dail-up connections. The change to the Recall Runes was a direct benefit to the griefers as it did two things...one was made them have a long casting time, which could be interrupted and the other was..no Recall Rune could be set at any dungeon level below the second level. I had some made so I could by pass the ambush points many Pkers would use at the early levels. Well.that change made those useless. I say the changes like that made a lot of players who hated being ganked all the time leave.

[Dralanna]

You was lucky. I played it for about a year and half. And getting attacked by gangs of pkers when you was alone was very common.

 

Sure I had that happen to me lots of times... I don't consider that griefing. A group of players marauding around killing individuals is part of playing a PvP game, which is what UO was. Now, if said group was somehow able to follow me around where ever I went killing me repeatedly, now that is griefing.

 

But usually they'd kill you and they'd move on. Sometimes they'd camp your corpse... and that case you'd (correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember you could...) res at the spirit healer.

 

The change to the Runes of Recall was the main reason I left. And also I found out a lot of the pker gangs were Origin employees. Setting at the servers with no lag and killing players who where mostly on dail-up connections. The change to the Recall Runes was a direct benefit to the griefers as it did two things...one was made them have a long casting time, which could be interrupted and the other was..no Recall Rune could be set at any dungeon level below the second level. I had some made so I could by pass the ambush points many Pkers would use at the early levels. Well.that change made those useless. I say the changes like that made a lot of players who hated being ganked all the time leave.

 

Yeah, I could see how those changes to rune of recall would stink. Like I said before, though, I didn't have a problem with ambushes in the dungeons... part of playing a PvP game. When that happened, I'd try to round up a bunch of people and clear them out.... lead to some pretty epic battles.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Dralanna

[Elhanan]

Sure

 

Once again you are wrong. PKing was non existent in EQ unless you actually played on a PvP server (I think there were only 2 or 3 of those). In the 5 or so years I played EQ, I think I only once saw someone flagged for PvP and I'm assuming it was an accident. I never played AC beyond the beta, so I can't speak to that... but I can certainly say that I never heard anyone ever complain about PKing in EQ. The biggest complaint was people training you (ie. intentionally rounding up a bunch of mobs and leading them to your location). Even that was somewhat rare (the intentional training.... accidental trains happened a lot).

 

How exactly are you encountering these "ill mannered players"? You play with chat off, you don't group, so where are you coming across them? You must play on the worst server of all... I've encountered tons of helpful, friendly people. I don't think I've had a bad experience yet, though, like you, I generally play solo. Just not exclusively solo.

 

I was including PK with Griefing for all three of these major MMO's; will let others speak as to the specific complaints of what came from where.

 

The Forums....

Edited May 1, 2012 by Elhanan

[Urael]

Actually, the thread is about the OPs crusade to rid the MMO world of griefing.... while commendable, it's not really possible. He is terrified of being griefed and sees griefing in every inconvenience. Since he's never played any other MMOs, he doesn't really comprehend what true griefing is, and how rare it really is.

 

Personally, I've played MMOs since UO launched in 97 and can honestly say I've been a victim of a real griefer maybe twice in all that time. It helps that I've played on PvE servers whenever available... but still, this fear of griefing is unwarranted.

 

Did you ever play Lineage 2? That was a grief fest. You could delevel from level cap with your level cap gear on down to level 4. People who did this would camp the character creation zones and kill you as you entered the game. Tried playing L2 for about a week before I gave up. I couldn'g get a character past level 4, was ganked repeatedly and tbh I am a bit twitchy about PvP ever since.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Urael

[LightsOn]

One of the big arguments about "griefing" or whatever term you want to use for "this", is that "If the Devs make it, then it's OK for me to use it and therefore it's not "griefing"."

 

For the most part, barring outright bugs/exploits, this is true. The Devs put things in the game to make stuff "happen". They add/change/delete and alter everything in the game. Some games more than others. But often there is an un-intended consequence to taking all changes at face value.

 

For every LOLz a PVPer gets from ghanking a L10 - eventually that player will go elsewhere: another game, another server, a different time zone. Eventually enough $$ seeps out of the system to cause financial problems for the game company and the most long term hurt is to the players themselves.

 

In another game (where I do PVP) I see this all the time. When there is an imbalance in size, make up or HPs of the opposition, and there is too much "In Your Face" attitudes, some folks just pick up their huaraches and go home. Then the PVP zone empties and everyone logs out.

 

True Story: one night I was leading the PVP creep raid and there were only a few freep players in the zone. A common practice was to zerg the outpost and take all their heads. But as I was leading I put out a no-go-into-the-outpost-kill-zone. The oppositon stayed and we played a long time "for fun" we got our kills in and we didn't zerg the zone for several hours. Once they got more players on line then I pulled the ban off and we had even more hours of full bore PVP. The creepside players thanked me because we had fun for hours that would have been just dead.

 

Sometimes a bit of self-restraint helps. So just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Edited May 1, 2012 by LightsOn

[GnatB]

A group of players marauding around killing individuals is part of playing a PvP game, which is what UO was.

 

Pretty sure that wasn't what it was intended to be though. (IIRC there was a Richard Gariott quote about how dissapointed he was with the lack of "civilisation" in the UO community) and early on at least they were always trying to reduce the rampant PKing.

[Urael]

One of the big arguments about "griefing" or whatever term you want to use for "this", is that "If the Devs make it, then it's OK for me to use it and therefore it's not "griefing"."

 

For the most part, barring outright bugs/exploits, this is true. The Devs put things in the game to make stuff "happen". They add/change/delete and alter everything in the game. Some games more than others. But often there is an un-intended consequence to taking all changes at face value.

 

For every LOLz a PVPer gets from ghanking a L10 - eventually that player will go elsewhere: another game, another server, a different time zone. Eventually enough $$ seeps out of the system to cause financial problems for the game company and the most long term hurt is to the players themselves.

 

In another game (where I do PVP) I see this all the time. When there is an imbalance in size, make up or HPs of the opposition, and there is too much "In Your Face" attitudes, some folks just pick up their huaraches and go home. Then the PVP zone empties and everyone logs out.

 

True Story: one night I was leading the PVP creep raid and there were only a few freep players in the zone. A common practice was to zerg the outpost and take all their heads. But as I was leading I put out a no-go-into-the-outpost-kill-zone. The oppositon stayed and we played a long time "for fun" we got our kills in and we didn't zerg the zone for several hours. Once they got more players on line then I pulled the ban off and we had even more hours of full bore PVP. The creepside players thanked me because we had fun for hours that would have been just dead.

 

Sometimes a bit of self-restraint helps. So just because you CAN doesn't mean you SHOULD.

 

Good post.

 

I agree with you but, in this day of the entitled ADHD peterpan generation, do you really think there is such a thing as "retraint"?

[Elhanan]

Good post.

 

I agree with you but, in this day of the entitled ADHD peterpan generation, do you really think there is such a thing as "retraint"?

 

er... you rang? Sgt Pan at your service!

 

Age has nothing to do with this; more about maturity, and that can be seen (or the lack thereof) in most age groups above the early teens. IMO.

 

I reserve my Ganking for NPC Kobolds and Fireball FFE.... *miss those old Gold Box games sometimes*

Edited May 1, 2012 by Elhanan

[Urael]

er... you rang? Sgt Pan at your service!

 

Age has nothing to do with this; more about maturity, and that can be seen (or the lack thereof) in most age groups above the early teens. IMO.

 

I reserve my Ganking for NPC Kobolds and Fireball FFE.... *miss those old Gold Box games sometimes*

 

My comment was more to the sense of entitlement that has ensued into western society since the end of the 19th century, compounded upon in the 20th century and is flat out going light speed in the 21st. That and the effect of instant gratification syndrom of this and the end of the last century, and the current trend in humans not adopting traditional roles but attempting to stay a kid as long as possible, makes one wonder if true retraint is possible from the players of MMOs when most are victium to all.

[FatherGrimm]

And exactly what did BW learn? I have yet to see one item from them about how to turn the PVP-FLAG-OFF and keep it OFF. They have said they are fixing the PVP-Flag-On-Exploit that's all.

 

Can you link a developer statement on this point? I finally got an answer from a CSR who said that it was working-as-intended, and thus not an exploit.

 

Why they thought it was a good idea to allow Beavis & Butthead to take their level 50 characters and gank my level 30 character, while I was PvEing, on a PvE server, in a PvE area, and with no warning about the policy change, is a mystery. Still, all I've seen is that they're unapologetic and intend to do jack-all about it. Guess they don't want my business back.

[Thlaylie]

Sadly, even PvE isn't really PvE when you have to compete with others for resources and rush to get items like treasure boxes before someone "ninja's" you.

 

A PvE server should have the "Green Curtain" start at the beginning of your play.

 

Hopefully BW will realize this and we will have a whole lot less griefing.

[Valkirus]

 

But usually they'd kill you and they'd move on. Sometimes they'd camp your corpse... and that case you'd (correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to remember you could...) res at the spirit healer.

 

 

 

.

 

You could rez at a spirit healer. But all your items you was carrying would drop to the ground and anyone could loot them. There was no such thing as soul bound items in those days in early UO. And when you died, you also lost some stats...such as str...stamina..agliity and intell. In UO there were no levels as such. These gang of pkers did on occasion camp your body. There was times I had to just log off and hope they would'nt be there the next time I logged on. UO had a extreme type of PVP. And the conduct of some of the players no matter if it was consensul PVP I would still label as griefers.

 

I will give you a example...To become a Dreadlord in UO took a lot of sacrifice and some great playing on the part of the player, but also came with a heafty rep penalty. Dreadlords were only allowed in one town at the time, a pirate coastal city. If they tried to come into any other city , the guards would kill them instantly. And you do remember how powerful the guards were in UO I assume...But when you did come across a Dreadlord, you knew the odds were you was seeing a great player....anyway in a attempt to keep this post short, I was out adventuring and this gang of 4 pkers ganged up on me and I thought for sure I was going to die...when up rode this Dreadlord..who swifty killed all 4 of them and then told me.." I hate punks like that who gang up other players in a unfair fight." and then waited until I looted all thier stuff and rode off.

[Cran]

My comment was more to the sense of entitlement that has ensued into western society since the end of the 19th century, compounded upon in the 20th century and is flat out going light speed in the 21st. That and the effect of instant gratification syndrom of this and the end of the last century, and the current trend in humans not adopting traditional roles but attempting to stay a kid as long as possible, makes one wonder if true retraint is possible from the players of MMOs when most are victium to all.

 

You must be of considerable age if you can make such accurate observations about the change of attitudes.

 

Kinda reminds me of Socrates:

“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.”

[LightsOn]

Can you link a developer statement on this point? I finally got an answer from a CSR who said that it was working-as-intended, and thus not an exploit.

 

Why they thought it was a good idea to allow Beavis & Butthead to take their level 50 characters and gank my level 30 character, while I was PvEing, on a PvE server, in a PvE area, and with no warning about the policy change, is a mystery. Still, all I've seen is that they're unapologetic and intend to do jack-all about it. Guess they don't want my business back.

 

There are several PVE->PVP-ForceTheFlagOn exploits or mechanics. Not all have been addressed. The one I was referring to is this one:

 

http://www.swtor.com/patchnotes/1.1.4/2222012

 

Classes and Combat

General

•Using abilities with indirect targeting (such as area of effect abilities) will no longer cause players to be flagged for PvP if a PvP-flagged player from the opposing faction is within the ability's range, and the ability will have no effect on the PvP-flagged player.

 

Nowhere I have seen anything about fixing FORCED-PVP-FROM-WORLD-EVENTS or any of the other known (sort of) methods of forcing the PVP-FLAG-ON especially on PVE servers or for players with the PVP-FLAG-OFF.

 

What is working as intended for the Rakghoul Plague Event is:

• We were all flagged for PVP
  
• We could all be infected
  
• We could all die
  
• Some could get loots if they had high ranking toons
  
• Infection in the fleet was OK
  
• Camping the mail box, gtn, gateways, cargo hold, med station and corpse camping was OK
  
• Ghanking players entering the fleet at L10 was OK
  
• Going to lower level worlds and ghanking or infecting players was OK especially when those worlds had no vaccines.
  
• Continuing to infect, ghank, and chase players to kill them or infect them is OK.
  
• And the list continues...
  

 

I was hoping for something more definitive about PVE-Pure from BW but perhaps tomorrow or SOON . But I already closed my account(s) so for me it might not matter anymore.

[Elhanan]

There are several PVE->PVP-ForceTheFlagOn exploits or mechanics. Not all have been addressed. The one I was referring to is this one:

 

*snip*

 

Nowhere I have seen anything about fixing FORCED-PVP-FROM-WORLD-EVENTS or any of the other known (sort of) methods of forcing the PVP-FLAG-ON especially on PVE servers or for players with the PVP-FLAG-OFF.

 

What is working as intended for the Rakghoul Plague Event is:

• We were all flagged for PVP
  
• We could all be infected
  
• We could all die
  
• Some could get loots if they had high ranking toons
  
• Infection in the fleet was OK
  
• Camping the mail box, gtn, gateways, cargo hold, med station and corpse camping was OK
  
• Ghanking players entering the fleet at L10 was OK
  
• Going to lower level worlds and ghanking or infecting players was OK especially when those worlds had no vaccines.
  
• Continuing to infect, ghank, and chase players to kill them or infect them is OK.
  
• And the list continues...
  

 

I was hoping for something more definitive about PVE-Pure from BW but perhaps tomorrow or SOON . But I already closed my account(s) so for me it might not matter anymore.

 

For myself, it is sad that someone can actually have that perspective here, Hopefully, current implementation and future events will be better for all.

[Nyjin]

As I am on a RP-PVE server, the whole exploit (yes, it is an exploit. I don't care what any customer-service droids say about it) where one got PVP-flagged via infection was completely thoughtless.

 

2k credits for a vaccine would've been fine...

 

IF it persisted through death, like the virus did. Nope. I probably spent 50k+ of credits (Not much, but still a silly amount for something that another player forced upon me) getting rid of the stupid virus.

 

People getting flagged for PVP involuntarily (No notice at all. When you go into another Faction's base on a PVE server, you're given a 10 second Red-bolded countdown for PVP-flagging, allowing you to go backwards and avoid it) is ridiculous.

 

If you're playing on a PVE server, complaining about being forced into PVP isn't a "carebear" issue. It's a valid concern and people have the right to be upset by it.

 

It made the world event, for me, alot less enjoyable than it could've been.

[Elhanan]

My comment was more to the sense of entitlement that has ensued into western society since the end of the 19th century, compounded upon in the 20th century and is flat out going light speed in the 21st. That and the effect of instant gratification syndrom of this and the end of the last century, and the current trend in humans not adopting traditional roles but attempting to stay a kid as long as possible, makes one wonder if true retraint is possible from the players of MMOs when most are victium to all.

 

I do agree that we are currently treading water in an entitled society; much worse over the past decade based on observation from within the workplace. Besides being on the front lines of the hospitality industry, as well as being a member of Bioware forums this Century, the Gimmee crowd is worse than ever.

 

And I do not understand those that find enjoyment in the harassment of others. Be it vandalism, hacking, viruses and worms, Griefing, etc; just do not get it on a personal level. And I remain unempathetic to their situations when they are caught, fined, and punished.

[Urael]

I do agree that we are currently treading water in an entitled society; much worse over the past decade based on observation from within the workplace. Besides being on the front lines of the hospitality industry, as well as being a member of Bioware forums this Century, the Gimmee crowd is worse than ever.

 

And I do not understand those that find enjoyment in the harassment of others. Be it vandalism, hacking, viruses and worms, Griefing, etc; just do not get it on a personal level. And I remain unempathetic to their situations when they are caught, fined, and punished.

 

The whole tragedy behind those that "bully" (be it physical, mental, behind a computer screen) is most if not all were themselves bullied. The bullies take out their frustrations on those they view as weaker in an attempt to validate the inadiquacies they felt when bullied. Its a vicious circle.

 

I understand life is hard, and it down right sucks sometimes but I really try not to take my frustrations out on other players in game ( now on the forums ... ) when I play on PvP servers I usually stick with my guildies etc. I don't go out and look for the solo gank. When I see someone flagged of the oposite faction on a PvE server I pretty much just wave and go about my buisness.

 

It is interesting that those that clamour for annonymous "open world" ( i.e "I just want to gank others") PvP don't see the parallels to bullying or perhaps and more importantly their own experiences with bullying.

[Mirhako]

Wasn't griefing to me. I started playing a few days before 1.2 and the plague hit. I got infected several times while leveling up. Died many more. And made some good credits selling the DNA. Sure, I died a few times, no big deal. I made some coin and got my crew skills up.

 

 

And to be honest, the plague event was part of the reason I bought the game after my friend trial was up. i love stuff like that. Reminds me of Asherons Call long ago, when devs would take over NPC's and walk around killing people, sending them in air, spawning random bosses in towns etc.

[Elhanan]

Wasn't griefing to me. I started playing a few days before 1.2 and the plague hit. I got infected several times while leveling up. Died many more. And made some good credits selling the DNA. Sure, I died a few times, no big deal. I made some coin and got my crew skills up.

 

And to be honest, the plague event was part of the reason I bought the game after my friend trial was up. i love stuff like that. Reminds me of Asherons Call long ago, when devs would take over NPC's and walk around killing people, sending them in air, spawning random bosses in towns etc.

 

It would seem that the reason in this case that it is not Griefing, it was something that was desired and permissable. This is not the case with several that have complained here; did not want it, were not asked permission even on PvE servers, and were forced into a storyline they did not wish to pursue.

 

Maybe the next Plague will turn all the infected characters into Ewoks, Panda's, or Care Bears; then maybe more may understand....

[Spazzoid]

Gamers have gotten real soft... It's sad no? When a player died for the 80th time on the original Donkey Kong you didn't run home and cry to mom that they made the game too hard, NO! You dropped another quarter in and kept climbing ladders and jumping over barrels. When you played the original Super Mario and died on Bowser you didn't write to Nintendo and ask them to remake the game so you can beat him. NO! You pushed start and restarted the game and whooped his *** to rescue the princess only to see her be kidnapped again. Man as a gamer from a real young age it ashames me alot of you represent us (Gamers) as a whole. Suck it up and keep playing.

[Quilland]

That's why I wish we could kill same faction, like Shadowbane allowed us to do.

Bad actions had consquences, but carebear games like this one, WoW, Rift... all of them... have no consquences and griefers feed off their need to inflict MMO herpes.

 

without full-on player killing, MMOs like this one are just fluffy puff games for carebears.

 

Player killing is a two-edged sword. On the good side it would allow you to kill the @#$@# who travelled to starter planets to infect lowbies for whom the 2k Vaccine was very expensive. On the other hand open player killing would allow same the bored @#$@#$ who has been level 50 for a while to go to a relatively low planet or even a starter planet and kill lowbies directly. No number of lowbies are going to be successful taking out a level 50 in full PVP gear. The lowbies will have to hope that some carebear will rescue them and guard the lowbie questing areas. Such a person would have to be a real carebear with the patience of Job and the soul of a saint to do that for very long.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Quilland

[Urael]

Player killing is a two-edged sword. On the good side it would allow you to kill the @#$@# who travelled to starter planets to infect lowbies for whom the 2k Vaccine was very expensive. On the other hand open player killing would allow same the bored @#$@#$ who has been level 50 for a while to go to a relatively low planet or even a starter planet and kill lowbies directly. No number of lowbies are going to be successful taking out a level 50 in full PVP gear. The lowbies will have to hope that some carebear will rescue them and guard the lowbie questing areas. Such a person would have to be a real carebear with the patience of Job and the soul of a saint to do that for very long.

 

You described the lowbie player experience in Lineage 2.