dazednconfuzed Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Everything is "niche", how many people of the worlds population play MMORPGs to start with. I'd say a decent space expansion would be similarly "niche" to a basic run around with sword/lightsabers ground MMORPG. Agreed. Much like raiding is also a niche occupation for MMOs, or PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 aye, JTL really complimented the ground game and the Star Wars feel - tho the sandbox features in SWG was important imho. Yeah it did, but in a strange way I think a more open space expansion would help SWTOR more, because it would at least open SWTOR up in some ways. Absolutely, a whole second game needs to be put on top of the ground game - this would be a huge attraction for new players who even hate the ground game (like some in SWG did) and focus entirely on spending their time in a full feature space-sim exploration. I see at least 500.000+ new re-/subscriptions potential If it's was done well, it could easily bring in 500,000 new subs, not to mention all the retained subs from people that would play for both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) They should have had full space game in at launch. Playing catch up now is something they wouldn't have to have done. How on earth they could have made a star wars game without space is something I'll never get my head around. And it's funny how they've been so quiet about it, but now it's come out top in the polls, suddenly they're soooo excited. Other than the X-wing / Tie fighter serieses (serie? What's the plural of series?) I can't think of a SW game with space free-flying at launch. And that includes SWG, the only previous SW MMO. Edited April 25, 2012 by Jestunhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Other than the x-wing / Tie fighter serieses I can't think of a SW game with space free-flying at launch. And that includes SWG, the only previous SW MMO. Well it was being developed and announced before launch, but no way in time for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazednconfuzed Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Other than the X-wing / Tie fighter serieses (serie? What's the plural of series?) I can't think of a SW game with space free-flying at launch. And that includes SWG, the only previous SW MMO. Plural of series is... series. Outside of the actual space games, you are right. SWG's space was being developed at launch, but iirc, they were running out of cash, so needed to launch before it was ready. At launch, SWG also didn't have many of the features that people have come to know and love like player housing. You couldn't even get mounts at SWG's launch. But just because other games haven't had space combat, or have developed it later, doesn't mean that a decent Star Wars MMO isn't deserving of a decent space combat system. Edited April 25, 2012 by dazednconfuzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MORTTUUM Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Everything is "niche", how many people of the worlds population play MMORPGs to start with.. Roughly .0012%. But, apparently, to some of those people, that's every living person... :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Everything is "niche", how many people of the worlds population play MMORPGs to start with. I'd say a decent space expansion would be similarly "niche" to a basic run around with sword/lightsabers ground MMORPG. I think it's debatable how many people would pay monthly for a (space)flight sim, as opposed to how many would pay monthly got an MMORPG. :edit: I should clarify, I'm certainly not against the addition of better space combat, but I'm not sure it's the best use of dev time currently. Edited April 25, 2012 by Jestunhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shepardcomander Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I think it's debatable how many people would pay monthly for a (space)flight sim, as opposed to how many would pay monthly got an MMORPG. :edit: I should clarify, I'm certainly not against the addition of better space combat, but I'm not sure it's the best use of dev time currently. Apparently the lead dev is not so sure it's the best use of dev time either. Hence he tries to string players along with vague comments and zero details that would naturally come from actual developement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Well, then tell me how do you expect them to make Space Exploration and the exploration of new planets something thousands of players all do together in an MMO environment? Exactly... Space 'exploration' in an MMO space will make it a single player game and I see no way to truly make it interesting. Therefore, by the Force no please! Look, it is something different when it is meant to allow some in-solar system free flight. That would be cool. But you do also know how other planets are explored right? Basicly only through old forgotten star maps (found on planets I might add) or random Lightspeed jumps. The first is not really Space Exploration, the second is a tedious and unfun activity. It is so unfun that in almost every EU reference to space exploration it is just that: referenced. Even the character most defined by random exploration; Revan, has only ever mentioned the fact he did it. Not once did you actually play him doing it. So tell me how you would see Space Exploration in an MMO game please? Because a general term does not a gaming functionality make. Exploring space can open up planets, new space battles, new zones, possibly new ships and races. And if space is multiplayer then how would that make it a single player experience. if they truly allow space exploration not everyone would have to explore, other players who have done the space will be able to take people into space they have explored and unlocked to show others were planets are. It adds way more then ow look over here is a new planet or there is a new battle, its there is a new planet and a new space battle out there somewhere go find it. I would much more prefer to find new areas, work out a hypersapce route, possibly in a rail system and find stuff on my own and not be spoon fed it. Edited April 25, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goretzu Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I think it's debatable how many people would pay monthly for a (space)flight sim, as opposed to how many would pay monthly got an MMORPG. :edit: I should clarify, I'm certainly not against the addition of better space combat, but I'm not sure it's the best use of dev time currently. It is, but think how many run around with a sword/lightsaber MMORPGs there are. Then think about how many 3D space environment MMORPGs there are. The first is much more overcrowded than the latter. Plus when you factor in Star Wars, you're hitting a demographic that is bound to be more interested in space than most other demograhics. You don't really see, hear or expect "space" as a Tolkien fan, but you rather do as a Star Wars one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazednconfuzed Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Exploring space can open up planets, new space battles, new zones, possibly new ships and races. And if space is multiplayer then how would that make it a single player experience. if they truly allow space exploration not everyone would have to explore, other players who have done the space will be able to take people into space they have explored and unlocked to show others were planets are. It adds way more then ow look over here is a new planet or there is a new battle, its there is a new planet and a new space battle out there somewhere go find it. I would much more prefer to find new areas, work out a hypersapce route, possibly in a rail system and find stuff on my own and not be spoon fed it. This would be cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zertheron Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 I want the flight controls to be like how the ships in the new Battlestar Galactica ships moved with thruster jets so ship could do straffing moves and 180 flips and shoot attackers head on while moving backwards... Thats exactly the problem. 3D space combat is very hard to master. You need good spatial imagination and reflexes. Also, in games like X-wing or decent feespace you had to memorize more than 30 key bindings which took days and weeks to master. Even harder with "real" physics like you said (like in I-war for example). So its completely different from the rest of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) So its completely different from the rest of the game. Which is desperately needed in this game! Edited April 25, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devlonir Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Exploring space can open up planets, new space battles, new zones, possibly new ships and races. And if space is multiplayer then how would that make it a single player experience. if they truly allow space exploration not everyone would have to explore, other players who have done the space will be able to take people into space they have explored and unlocked to show others were planets are. It adds way more then ow look over here is a new planet or there is a new battle, its there is a new planet and a new space battle out there somewhere go find it. I would much more prefer to find new areas, work out a hypersapce route, possibly in a rail system and find stuff on my own and not be spoon fed it. These are good ideas in a brainstorming sort of way, but I doubt they will ever be made. And this is my inner-developer talking here. You see, the multiplayer aspect is it's achilles' heel. The way you suggest it, means that only one person has to explore a new planet for others to find. The only way I can see this work is to make FTL jump coordinates worth something economically and then make them tradeable. For example: Rare materials only or more easilly available in certain star systems, meaning that the explorer can try and find these locations and sell them on the GTN. Major downside: Third party websites. The moment one person explored them and then posts it on the web, the coordinates become worthless again and therefore non-tradeable. You see, the point I'm making is that in the time of a Social Media internet, exploration in a limited situation (that of a video game) just doesn't work. Only one person has to do it for everyone else to possibly know. And anyone who doesn't go to third party websites, or doesn't know of them, is always behind on those who do know of these things. Datacrons were already on the edge of being a good or bad addition when it comes to exploring, their only redeeming factor being that often actually getting to it is the hard part.. not knowing how to get to them. I see no implementation of space exploring that is possible and fun in an MMO environment, considering all aspects of MMO gamer culture. Also, I will repeat my point again, Star Wars is not about exploring. Yes, exploring happens, but never was it the key or most important aspect of Star Wars stories, especially not the GL kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zertheron Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Which is desperately needed in this game! Really? I don't think somebody is buying Call of duty because the new feature is an integrated chess game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Thats exactly the problem. 3D space combat is very hard to master. You need good spatial imagination and reflexes. Also, in games like X-wing or decent feespace you had to memorize more than 30 key bindings which took days and weeks to master. Even harder with "real" physics like you said (like in I-war for example). So its completely different from the rest of the game. Mmm, very few spaceflight sims actually use proper physics, although I love games that do. There's also the question of how well the engine which they chose would handle free-flight space and physics. :edit: It is, but think how many run around with a sword/lightsaber MMORPGs there are. Then think about how many 3D space environment MMORPGs there are. The first is much more overcrowded than the latter. Plus when you factor in Star Wars, you're hitting a demographic that is bound to be more interested in space than most other demograhics. You don't really see, hear or expect "space" as a Tolkien fan, but you rather do as a Star Wars one. It's not a question of how many people would play a SW spaceflight sim, it's a case of how many would pay monthly to do so. Of course some people will want to do both the MMORPG aspects and the space aspects. But the pool of players which you are aiming for has to be willing to pay MMO fees, otherwise they won't be interested anyway. Edited April 25, 2012 by Jestunhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Ravenhurst Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Really? I don't think somebody is buying Call of duty because the new feature is an integrated chess game So in your theory Call of Duty <> chess game = Star Wars <> Off rails space exploration ? LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shingara Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) These are good ideas in a brainstorming sort of way, but I doubt they will ever be made. And this is my inner-developer talking here. You see, the multiplayer aspect is it's achilles' heel. The way you suggest it, means that only one person has to explore a new planet for others to find. The only way I can see this work is to make FTL jump coordinates worth something economically and then make them tradeable. For example: Rare materials only or more easilly available in certain star systems, meaning that the explorer can try and find these locations and sell them on the GTN. Major downside: Third party websites. The moment one person explored them and then posts it on the web, the coordinates become worthless again and therefore non-tradeable. You see, the point I'm making is that in the time of a Social Media internet, exploration in a limited situation (that of a video game) just doesn't work. Only one person has to do it for everyone else to possibly know. And anyone who doesn't go to third party websites, or doesn't know of them, is always behind on those who do know of these things. Datacrons were already on the edge of being a good or bad addition when it comes to exploring, their only redeeming factor being that often actually getting to it is the hard part.. not knowing how to get to them. I see no implementation of space exploring that is possible and fun in an MMO environment, considering all aspects of MMO gamer culture. Also, I will repeat my point again, Star Wars is not about exploring. Yes, exploring happens, but never was it the key or most important aspect of Star Wars stories, especially not the GL kind. You miss understand me, its not that only 1 person can find a new planet, its that people who dont play space can be show/taken to a new planet that they would be unable to find due to not playing space. As for materials in space, its already stated in lore that space mining exists so can be put into the game. A form of space datacron wouldnt be a bad idea either and your not forced to get them just the same as the land datacrons. We dont need an economic reason to find new planets as anyone doing space will be exploring on average as much as others, if there is space mining that could allow for economic reasons for specific regions of space to be more monetery involved then others but allowing people who play space to take people to unlocked planets makes it so that people who dont do space can still play on new ground aspects of the game without being forced to play space. Also your point doesnt stand, exploring is part of star wars, its just not shown that greatly, endor is yet to be discovered for example, smugglers routes and smuggling isnt a big thing in the genre but it is covered alot. Just because it wasnt the main emphasis of the films does not state its not a part of the world or IP. Edited April 25, 2012 by Shingara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zertheron Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) So in your theory Call of Duty <> chess game = Star Wars themepark mmorpg <>3D space combat simulator LOL. Fixed Edited April 25, 2012 by Zertheron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varteras Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 While I am very much excited about the idea of full 3D space battles in this game I think many people should temper their expectations of what kind of complexity it will be. Personally I'm going to assume that it will be the most simplistic 3D space combat possible just so I'm not disappointed if that is exactly what we get. If it ends up being a bit more complicated than that I'll be thrilled. I would not expect it to be as involving as, say, Freespace and certainly assume that any similarities to EVE are out of the question. I will say that full 3D space combat could quite easily be an addition to this game that will generate and even renew interest in it for many current and potential players regardless of how simple or complex it ends up being. I believe one of James Ohlen's tweets mentioned that the four items people voted on in his first poll thread (full 3D space combat, capship battles, vehicular combat, and pod/speeder racing) were all things that they plan on bringing to the game. That will be great for bringing diversity to the game. I really enjoy this game but as of right now with the exception of fully voiced cinematic dialogue with dialogue choices, the Legacy system, and space missions it is really just more of the same to me. If Bioware brings these kinds of additions to the game, gives us a solid LFG tool, and manages to revive PvP I will have no problem going from month to month payments to a 6-month subscription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utio Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 Mmm, very few spaceflight sims actually use proper physics, although I love games that do. There's also the question of how well the engine which they chose would handle free-flight space and physics. :edit: It's not a question of how many people would play a SW spaceflight sim, it's a case of how many would pay monthly to do so. Of course some people will want to do both the MMORPG aspects and the space aspects. But the pool of players which you are aiming for has to be willing to pay MMO fees, otherwise they won't be interested anyway. I think there are the numbers out there, personally. People pay for eve, people paid for JTL. But hey what do any of us know for sure? Time will tell, assuming it happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazednconfuzed Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) Really? I don't think somebody is buying Call of duty because the new feature is an integrated chess game No, but someone might buy a Star Wars game for wars among the stars. Edited April 25, 2012 by dazednconfuzed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 (edited) I think there are the numbers out there, personally. People pay for eve, people paid for JTL. But hey what do any of us know for sure? Time will tell, assuming it happens. Not sure I'd include Eve as a flight sim, it's not quite the same thing. As for JTL, I'm not aware of the number of people who bought the game due to that (i.e. new customers who bought it because of space) or the number of ex-players who returned (for more than just a short period to try it). Edited April 25, 2012 by Jestunhi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazednconfuzed Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 There's also the question of how well the engine which they chose would handle free-flight space and physics. This is Star Wars. Proper space physics has no place here. Lucas designed space combat to be more like WW2 dogfighting, so that is how it should be in TOR. As for the engine, it already works fine for space combat. In fact, the main website for the Hero engine (as used to produce TOR) has a video demo of exactly this, free-flight space combat mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jestunhi Posted April 25, 2012 Share Posted April 25, 2012 No, but someone might by a Star Wars game for wars among the stars. This game is set during a time of peace - after the signing of the Treaty of Coruscant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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