The 4th Pillar and Story: Did SWTOR lose direction?

[ChazDoit]

Doing storyline content for 8 different base classes, maybe even 16 if they expand on AC specific story line (which I think they may do).

 

They havent said anything about doing a story for each advanced class, not even hinted it, then again, if you have any sources for this, please provide

 

It is unrealistic to expect new chapters in the storyline every 90 days in a major patch.

 

I said missions, not chapters, maybe a 30 minute mission to advance the story a little bit, as a teaser of bigger things to come, keep us hooked.

 

Also I dont appreciate that you know are supposed to be a raider and dungeon runner to experience the story, when I was doing dailies on Corellia, General Konya said something like: "we cant keep the battle on Corellia after what happen in Denova" and Im like "wait, what the hell happen in Denova?"

Edited April 30, 2012 by ChazDoit

[Kubernetic]

The basic problem here is that no content developer can ever develop content fast enough for those that consume said content like wildfire.

 

This is true regardless of whether it is movies, television, games, or books. Each of these efforts takes so much more time to craft (and craft well) than they do to consume on the other end.

 

A season full of television shows can take months to write, film, produce and deliver, whereas a viewer can literally sit down in one day and watch all of them (if you avoid sleep for a few hours).

 

A blockbuster action movie can take months, even years to produce, and then is gone within 2-3 hours of viewing time spent by the consumer.

 

Game content like the stories in SWTOR took months and years on end to develop, and a player can get through all of it in 6 full days' playing time.

 

About the only thing in existence that can keep up with the rate of consumption is perhaps a spontaneous jazz/blues ensemble that can just sit there and riff off the top of their heads. It just isn't going to happen in a video game.

 

My questions to the OP would be: Have you played through all 8 class stories, or just one? If you've only gone through one or two stories, then you obviously have some work left to do. If you truly imagined that they would be able to pump out story content for just one character class as fast as you could consume that content, well then I am sorry for your misunderstanding... this was never going to happen, in any game, ever.

 

You can bring up examples like Rift, but surely Rift never had story lines that even came close to those in SWTOR.

 

Now that said, as I am nearing level 50 with my Trooper Commando, I see that there is a coming lack of content as my Chapter 3 story comes to a close and I enter that last intermission. But I intend to switch over to another character and begin leveling them up and progressing through another part of the story. I don't intend to just sit around with my one character, wishing for something to do, although in the case of last night when Imperials took over the Pallista Spaceport on Alderaan, requiring a team of Republic players to head in to evict them from the premises, and then a few of us travelling over to the Imperial side of Alderaan to see about getting into THEIR spaceport was quite fun, and wasn't scripted or produced by anyone at BioWare.

 

In time, more story content will be released by BioWare that will continue our character stories. But it's never going to happen on your schedule, unless you are playing in very slow bits, or are shifting around and enjoying numerous stories at once. That's just the way it is.

 

In the mean time, they will put out more content that is designed to be done repeatedly by those players who enjoy (or want to, for whatever reason) do those repeated activities. Because this is the only way that they can put out content fast enough for the quick consumers... to build repeatable events that people can run over and over while the developers move on to more difficult subject matter.

 

It doesn't really seem that appealing to me, but we'll see. The idea of partaking in perhaps as many as 150-200 PVP matches or more so that I can get some of the top PVP gear doesn't really excite me, either. Some players obviously like it, as I see them walking around in said armor, and I doubt ALL of them used the Ilum exploit or some other method to cheat their way to better gear so quickly.

[ChazDoit]

The basic problem here is that no content developer can ever develop content fast enough for those that consume said content like wildfire.

 

This is true regardless of whether it is movies, television, games, or books. Each of these efforts takes so much more time to craft (and craft well) than they do to consume on the other end.

 

A season full of television shows can take months to write, film, produce and deliver, whereas a viewer can literally sit down in one day and watch all of them (if you avoid sleep for a few hours).

 

A blockbuster action movie can take months, even years to produce, and then is gone within 2-3 hours of viewing time spent by the consumer.

 

Game content like the stories in SWTOR took months and years on end to develop, and a player can get through all of it in 6 full days' playing time.

 

That's NOT the problem, nobody is complaining about the pace it takes to create new story, we are saying there has not been new story at all, every content patch was dedicated to add standard MMO features and instead of trying to advance the story just a little bit.

[Andryah]

They havent said anything about doing a story for each advanced class, not even hinted it, then again, if you have any sources for this, please provide

 

Um.... what part of "I think they may do" blew right by your noodle box???

Edited April 30, 2012 by Andryah

[FeelFlow]

Hello,

 

I think that you're right to raise this point but I don't think that you should worry.

 

For people who love KOTOR, the story and role-play etc. Well congratulations - you just got x8 KOTORs (i.e. x8 class stories).

 

I can't be the only person planning to work through all 8 classes for their stories, can I? At least I hope not!

 

I guess that Bioware are concentrating on the sorts of subscribers who are from WoW etc. (Er, I am too) and who have 'their class and character' i.e. they just have their one character and who race through to endgame and are bored...

 

Edited April 30, 2012 by FeelFlow

[Andryah]

I guess that Bioware are concentrating on the sorts of subscribers who are from WoW etc. and who have 'their class and character' and who race through to endgame and are bored.

 

It's a large development team, with different parts of the team working on different aspects of the game. It's not a stretch to see that the storyline group is working on new storylines concurrently with other parts of the team working on other content. They said as much in the guild summit, along with making a point to note that storylines take a lot longer to develop and release then other content.

 

My impression from what they shared at the guild summit is that it would be late in 2012 before we see new chapters in the storyline.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Andryah

[WickedDjinn]

Tors problem is that it's disjointed by its basic design. Bioware is trying to meld to things that do not work together. Their devotion to storytelling interferes directly with all the other elements an MMO needs.

 

Meanwhile the MMO elements only serve to stand in the way of the story lines they want you to experience, breaking up story sections with the need to engage in the same tired kill quest grind.

 

The two sides work against each other, and now BW has essentially painted themselves into a corner. They need to bring the standard MMO elements up to par in order to justify a monthly subscription fee. Instead they should be devoting resources to continuing the storyline aspects.

[Heith]

only a little its still not bad

[Tripleforce]

Short Answer = BW caved.

 

Ultra Long Answer = The problem is that BW tried to mesh the KOTOR-3 crowd and the MMO crowd.

 

*snip*

 

As a member of the Kotor 3 crowd, this is exactly what I feared coming into this. Don't get me wrong, SWTOR is great and better than WoW overall (for me). But it isn't Kotor 3.

 

While the initial class quests/ planets capture that story feel and sense of choice, later planets seem to loose that mystique.

 

In terms of story telling, decision making, companions, sidequests, dialogue, etc, SWTOR is lightyears behind Kotor 1 and 2.

 

The conversation with Carth in the Taris apartments or with Atton on Peragus is more in depth and meaningful than any conversation I have had in SWTOR and both had more character.

 

It's unfortunate, but that's what happens with MMOs. I suppose I should be happy Bioware was able to put in what they did for SWTOR, as it still makes it's story far and away better than anything WoW offered.

[WickedDjinn]

As a member of the Kotor 3 crowd, this is exactly what I feared coming into this. Don't get me wrong, SWTOR is great and better than WoW overall (for me). But it isn't Kotor 3.

 

While the initial class quests/ planets capture that story feel and sense of choice, later planets seem to loose that mystique.

 

In terms of story telling, decision making, companions, sidequests, dialogue, etc, SWTOR is lightyears behind Kotor 1 and 2.

 

The conversation with Carth in the Taris apartments or with Atton on Peragus is more in depth and meaningful than any conversation I have had in SWTOR and both had more character.

 

It's unfortunate, but that's what happens with MMOs. I suppose I should be happy Bioware was able to put in what they did for SWTOR, as it still makes it's story far and away better than anything WoW offered.

 

Part of any good story is pacing. That's impossible within the framework of an MMO. Instead we're left to slog through lob stretches of nothing, desperately chasing the trail of delicious storyline breadcrumbs.

[Majestic_Jazz]

For story we will have to wait for an expansion most likely.

 

This is my thought exactly!

 

I knew from the very beginning that once I jump and and play my class stories, that it would be a LONG wait [1+ Year] before I see a continuation of the story.

 

Like you say and like everyone else has said. We HAVE to wait until the 1st Expansion is released and the level cap/legacy cap is increased before we hit the panic button.

 

Guys, I remember a little while back when Stephen Reid made a mention that there WILL be new planets and there WILL be class/planet stories on these new planets and that Bioware IS working on them. He did mention that Bioware is VERY early in the process as it takes a long time to create a planet and it's story vs creating a operation/flashpoint. So from that comment, he basically confirmed that they are NOT caving in in regards to story and that they have big plans for it in store for the future, possibly with space missions playing a larger role in class/planet stories and being less of a mini-game. Expect that the first expansion would further the class stories through at least Chapter 4 or Chapter 5. The level cap would be increased and each class would probably get about 1 or 2 new companions with complete VO.

 

Again, we have to be patient, it is only like 5 months after release! By this time next year would we probably be gearing up for our first major expansion with like 5 new planets, 1-2 new companions for each class, new class story through Chapter 4/Chapter 5, new races etc etc etc.......

 

So my answer? NO Bioware has not lost direction. Right now they are releasing small updates which cateers to the Operation/PvP/Crafting Crowd. For those PvE/Story People like myself or the "KOTOR 3 crowd", we will have to wait for the expansions.

 

Remember, Bioware has said that this is a 10 year endeavor......

[Tripleforce]

Part of any good story is pacing. That's impossible within the framework of an MMO. Instead we're left to slog through lob stretches of nothing, desperately chasing the trail of delicious storyline breadcrumbs.

 

 

Wow, I couldn't put it into words but that is exactly how I feel. I always have moments in SWTOR where I am entirely engrossed in the story, but then I am forced to grind through bonus quests and other mindless drivel to reach the next key moment of dialogue.

 

That would definitely be my main issue with the game so far...

[WickedDjinn]

This is my thought exactly!

 

I knew from the very beginning that once I jump and and play my class stories, that it would be a LONG wait [1+ Year] before I see a continuation of the story.

 

Like you say and like everyone else has said. We HAVE to wait until the 1st Expansion is released and the level cap/legacy cap is increased before we hit the panic button.

 

Guys, I remember a little while back when Stephen Reid made a mention that there WILL be new planets and there WILL be class/planet stories on these new planets and that Bioware IS working on them. He did mention that Bioware is VERY early in the process as it takes a long time to create a planet and it's story vs creating a operation/flashpoint. So from that comment, he basically confirmed that they are NOT caving in in regards to story and that they have big plans for it in store for the future, possibly with space missions playing a larger role in class/planet stories and being less of a mini-game. Expect that the first expansion would further the class stories through at least Chapter 4 or Chapter 5. The level cap would be increased and each class would probably get about 1 or 2 new companions with complete VO.

 

Again, we have to be patient, it is only like 5 months after release! By this time next year would we probably be gearing up for our first major expansion with like 5 new planets, 1-2 new companions for each class, new class story through Chapter 4/Chapter 5, new races etc etc etc.......

 

So my answer? NO Bioware has not lost direction. Right now they are releasing small updates which cateers to the Operation/PvP/Crafting Crowd. For those PvE/Story People like myself or the "KOTOR 3 crowd", we will have to wait for the expansions.

 

Remember, Bioware has said that this is a 10 year endeavor......

 

All well and good.

 

Except that we're expected to pay a monthly fee in the meantime.

 

This game lost its direction sometime during the development process.

[Citywok]

I think some of you came into this game for the wrong reasons. We all knew from the beginning this was going to be an MMO that has to compete with the likes of WoW and EQ. To just put out "story" updates would alienate probably the largest portion of SWTOR's base, MMO veterans who are looking for something new. You can play through story content in hours that took 6 months to produce because of the coding and voice acting involved. This is not a single player game. This is not Kotor 3 and I think you are going to be sadly disappointed because it seems like many of you expect this to be a console RPG with multiplayer. They have to build more core MMO features and raids and warzones because that is what will make the most people happy and keep them playing. I beat Kotor 1 and 2 twenty plus times each and I loved them, however they are single player RPGs and SWTOR is not one of them. It is set in the same time period but thats about it. While the story is an important part of this game (like all Bioware games), we all knew that more raids and warzones and such were coming first. Wait for an expansion or play through all 8 class storylines, because I seriously doubt you've done that.

 

Now on to your complaints about not being able to experience Denova or other hard operations. Not every player is going to be able to see the hardest operation in the game. That would be ridiculous. It takes a lot of work to gear up to the point of being able to participate in the hardest content. If you are a casual player as you claim and love story, then 8 class stories should be more than enough until the expansions. It's ridiculous to expect them to spend time on adding on to all class stories during the updates because that takes MUCH longer to complete than new raids and warzones and it would only take hours to play through! Do you not see the problem there?

You're complaining about not being able to get blackhole and campaign gear but you don't want to gear up like everyone else does who obtains that gear? This is NOT a single player game, you can't get the best stuff playing by yourself. It it only took me a couple weeks to get all my columi gear through flashpoints and normal ops which arent that hard to do. If you want the gear, do the work. Stop complaining.

[Soullessone]

I hate dailies; I would so much more prefer a greater variety of engaging, deep and extremely long mission chains.

 

Dailies feel like work/chores, it's like the routine for many players is to log on, do dailies, log off.

 

My biggest gripe with dailies however, is that in order to get certain 'end-game' gear (such as earpieces, implants... and now black hole stuff) players have no alternative but to do dailies.

 

Also, I hope we get some epic server event comparable to the scale of the gates of AQ or even grander in scale!

 

I agree with you completely. Part of the reason I barely log into the game. I am not having fun on my 50, mainly because all i have to do are dailies or pvp. No chance in hell of doing a raid or flashpoint beings anchorhead is slowly dying like all of the other server.

[Kubernetic]

That's NOT the problem, nobody is complaining about the pace it takes to create new story, we are saying there has not been new story at all, every content patch was dedicated to add standard MMO features and instead of trying to advance the story just a little bit.

 

I'm sorry, but let me help you out here. People ARE complaining about the pace that it takes to create new story lines for the character classes if we are already seeing complaints 4 months into the game that the THREE CHAPTERS of stories already provided (that's 24 chapters, total) are not enough and we should have seen more by now.

 

Every patch so far has been dedicated to new content that follows the "Build once, play many times" model precisely because it takes so long to develop those stories, do the voiceover work and post-production, set that up in game, build the environments, and so forth.

 

Class stories especially are one-off affairs, where all of the work that went into that story sequence are seen once and then never seen again due to the nature of the story and the designers not wanting people going backwards in their story line. Surrounding missions are usually designed so that they match up with class stories so that players who are doing missions together can wind up in the same areas at around the same times, and so that the missions are in similar areas without forcing endless mission/return/mission/return scenarios.

 

They have already announced that the continuing stories will be appearing later this year, at what time we don't know for sure, but they have already confirmed that this will be happening THIS year.

 

Please be reasonable: they aren't sitting on content so they can relax on their behinds and not produce anything. I'd wager that the story teams are working on more story lines, perhaps even up to Chapters 8 or 9 so far writing scripts and so forth, but if they release all of the story line content that they have ready, and don't pace themselves, then you wind up with HUGE gaps of time where no story development takes place.

 

It's much better if they spread the stories out reasonably so that they can keep up the pace of releasing new story chapters on somewhat regular intervals.

[Socialist]

For Force's sake, why can't you guys create a title that is not a piece of cliché sensationalist ****?

 

 

I mean, it seems like those guys that write the headlines in American networks (and The Sun as well) are the ones creating threads like this one.

 

 

In fact, I didn't even feel compelled to read (on the contrary). Instead I just came here to rant on such stylistic choice.

 

 

 

au revoir.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Socialist

[Kamor]

I am glad that this has been brought up by the original poster as well. Though it is relatively early for things like this, it does need to be brought to BW's attention. They did mention they wanted to work on the "4th pillar" after all and all of us, for one reason or another, were curious about story truly being brought to the MMO universe.

 

However I have to disagree with the attitude of players such as DalrisThane because this is STILL an MMO. Never once did BW say THIS IS Kotor 3. As a matter of fact they bluntly told their fans, players, viewers, gamers, or whatever there will NEVER be a Kotor 3 so stop wishing this is/was your fantasy of a Kotor 3.

 

Again this IS an MMO so if you do not like the multi-player aspect that comes with this style of gaming continue to stick to yourself play the story and move on like a typical console game PLEASE. We do not need an MMO turned into single player mode for your gaming pleasure.

 

I do believe BW does need to put some work in their stories as far as continuation goes. It is still early so I hope it happens. It would also be great if they cause these stories to come together to bring people together like an MMO should. Like maybe have some unique band togethers for a story. Maybe a Sith Warrior and a Bounty Hunter need to team up to continue their story because they had to collaborate with one another for some reason.

 

All I am saying is I agree the story is lacking, but let's not try and make this a single player game like it seems that a large portion of the community IN game is attempting to do by ignoring one another trying to work together or complaining about people who look for others to join up with knowing there is a lack in group finding within the game.

[WickedDjinn]

I'm sorry, but let me help you out here. People ARE complaining about the pace that it takes to create new story lines for the character classes if we are already seeing complaints 4 months into the game that the THREE CHAPTERS of stories already provided (that's 24 chapters, total) are not enough and we should have seen more by now.

 

Every patch so far has been dedicated to new content that follows the "Build once, play many times" model precisely because it takes so long to develop those stories, do the voiceover work and post-production, set that up in game, build the environments, and so forth.

 

Class stories especially are one-off affairs, where all of the work that went into that story sequence are seen once and then never seen again due to the nature of the story and the designers not wanting people going backwards in their story line. Surrounding missions are usually designed so that they match up with class stories so that players who are doing missions together can wind up in the same areas at around the same times, and so that the missions are in similar areas without forcing endless mission/return/mission/return scenarios.

 

They have already announced that the continuing stories will be appearing later this year, at what time we don't know for sure, but they have already confirmed that this will be happening THIS year.

 

Please be reasonable: they aren't sitting on content so they can relax on their behinds and not produce anything. I'd wager that the story teams are working on more story lines, perhaps even up to Chapters 8 or 9 so far writing scripts and so forth, but if they release all of the story line content that they have ready, and don't pace themselves, then you wind up with HUGE gaps of time where no story development takes place.

 

It's much better if they spread the stories out reasonably so that they can keep up the pace of releasing new story chapters on somewhat regular intervals.

 

Of course it takes a long time to create fully voiced storyline content.

 

But that's the corner BW painted themselves into. They put themselves in this situation. It would be different if we weren't expected to pay a monthly fee.

 

What is bothering people, I feel, is that they want something story related. We want content that plays to what makes TOR stand out from the crowd, rather than second rate versions of features that have been done to death in other MMOs.

 

There are fans who would take the inclusion of same sex romances for existing companions, for example, over any three new end game operations! Seriously. People would replay class stories all over again for that alone.

 

On the topic of companions, what about allowing them to actually turn on you because of a choice you've made?

 

Things like that, along with the story telling, are what make this game what it is. People need a sense that THIS is biowares focus. Cause let's face it, every other traditional MMO element TOR has is being done better by other games.

[WickedDjinn]

I am glad that this has been brought up by the original poster as well. Though it is relatively early for things like this, it does need to be brought to BW's attention. They did mention they wanted to work on the "4th pillar" after all and all of us, for one reason or another, were curious about story truly being brought to the MMO universe.

 

However I have to disagree with the attitude of players such as DalrisThane because this is STILL an MMO. Never once did BW say THIS IS Kotor 3. As a matter of fact they bluntly told their fans, players, viewers, gamers, or whatever there will NEVER be a Kotor 3 so stop wishing this is/was your fantasy of a Kotor 3.

 

Again this IS an MMO so if you do not like the multi-player aspect that comes with this style of gaming continue to stick to yourself play the story and move on like a typical console game PLEASE. We do not need an MMO turned into single player mode for your gaming pleasure.

 

I do believe BW does need to put some work in their stories as far as continuation goes. It is still early so I hope it happens. It would also be great if they cause these stories to come together to bring people together like an MMO should. Like maybe have some unique band togethers for a story. Maybe a Sith Warrior and a Bounty Hunter need to team up to continue their story because they had to collaborate with one another for some reason.

 

All I am saying is I agree the story is lacking, but let's not try and make this a single player game like it seems that a large portion of the community IN game is attempting to do by ignoring one another trying to work together or complaining about people who look for others to join up with knowing there is a lack in group finding within the game.

 

Players aren't actively ignoring each other for no reason. Every MMO has to create an environment that encourages interaction.

 

TOR bends over backwards to make this an annoyance. It's something about the game, right down to the lack of something as simple as chat bubbles.

[Kubernetic]

Of course it takes a long time to create fully voiced storyline content.

 

But that's the corner BW painted themselves into. They put themselves in this situation. It would be different if we weren't expected to pay a monthly fee.

 

What is bothering people, I feel, is that they want something story related. We want content that plays to what makes TOR stand out from the crowd, rather than second rate versions of features that have been done to death in other MMOs.

 

So if I can rephrase your argument here in a more succinct format:

 

Because BioWare tried to do a story-related MMO, and since no developer can ever design story content of that nature fast enough to keep players who only want to focus on 12.5% of that content, this means they've failed and can never succeed.

 

We'll just have to disagree on that one.

 

There are fans who would take the inclusion of same sex romances for existing companions, for example, over any three new end game operations! Seriously. People would replay class stories all over again for that alone.

 

Same-sex relationships with companions and players has been discussed already, and these are coming into the game later this year. But it does take some time to back-fill those stories into the mix and change the system around a little bit so that it works as they intend.

 

On the topic of companions, what about allowing them to actually turn on you because of a choice you've made?

 

The problem here of course is the lack of too many companions. I agree it would have been nice if they'd had a set of 10 or so companions with 6 of them designed to be with us, so that we could lose a few and still have adequate numbers of companions. During the beta they allowed you to kill off companions, but then had to field customer service requests wondering how players should complete content that's designed for having a companion, when their companion was dead.

 

Things like that, along with the story telling, are what make this game what it is. People need a sense that THIS is biowares focus. Cause let's face it, every other traditional MMO element TOR has is being done better by other games.

 

The story telling is just fine from my perspective. I've only seen most of one character class story and about 2/3rds of another. Plenty left to go for me. I'm sorry if your mileage has varied.

 

People like you need to realize that they didn't spend all of this effort building 50 levels of story content just to drop it off a cliff and dump you into repeatable hard mode raids for the rest of your existence in game. They plan on releasing more story content, but will have to pace the release of that content so they can do it in a somewhat regular fashion and not dump the glut of material they have from years of development right away and then have us go through 2 years of a dry spell while we wait for another glut of content.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Kubernetic

[ChazDoit]

I'm sorry, but let me help you out here. People ARE complaining about the pace that it takes to create new story lines for the character classes if we are already seeing complaints 4 months into...

 

No, we're not, reread the thread title, this is about the shift Bioware is making from story to Dungeon runs and Raids, you're out of topic, which I guess renders the rest of what you wrote pointless.

[siegedeluxe]

Every patch so far has been dedicated to new content that follows the "Build once, play many times" model precisely because it takes so long to develop those stories, do the voiceover work and post-production, set that up in game, build the environments, and so forth..

 

Exactly... SWTOR = Failed experiment.

 

It is impossible to create this kind of content due to the fact that IT IS CONSUMED TOO QUICKLY!

[Costello]

I think Bioware have a lot of work ahead of them.

 

The Daily boxes are just a chore, they are neither MMO enough to make the MMO fans happy or story driven enough to make the story fans happy. They are also predisposed to the idea that we can or want to log in each day for a set amount of time. But the biggest problem is they don't really work for anyone.

 

Instead BW need to decide if Story is what will make TOR stand out then they need to make sure this continues and looks to do so for some time. If on the other hand they want to work on the MMO aspects of the game then this is a fine direction too but to have people repeat a daily theme park style quest with little story but done in a story based way would be to get it all wrong.

[superpipito]

Well you can do dailies fun too. Take a look at Firelands dailies in wow. Thats dailies and story progression but here we get stupid QUEST-O-BOX erm and nothing else. No story progression at all. And what if i don't like to level alts and don't want to see theirs stories? maybe i want some story progression on my sith sorc. But i agree this game just abomination two kind of games mixed together and thats not very good mix with bad taste for both sides:confused: Edited April 30, 2012 by superpipito