CC is out of control.

[Raific]

I agree the OP is obviously exaggerating a bit but I think people are getting too hung up on the literal use of "Chain Stunned" that is thrown out there. Is it any better when you get stunned, run for about 5-6 seconds stunned again and then immediately stunned once more and maybe with a knock-back, slow/root or pull mixed in there? Come on people, the Stunning in this game is out of control. Stop defending it.

 

Furthermore, the Resolve Bar is boinked. Anyone that denies it needs a reality check. Many times it works incorrectly both ways. I don't know if it is lag or just bugged but it is hardly flawless. So lets all stop flaming each other and help the Devs make better. The exaggerations do not help either.

[Darth_Philar]

I agree the OP is obviously exaggerating a bit but I think people are getting too hung up on the literal use of "Chain Stunned" that is thrown out there. Is it any better when you get stunned, run for about 5-6 seconds stunned again and then immediately stunned once more and maybe with a knock-back, slow/root or pull mixed in there? Come on people, the Stunning in this game is out of control. Stop defending it.

 

Furthermore, the Resolve Bar is boinked. Anyone that denies it needs a reality check. Many times it works incorrectly both ways. I don't know if it is lag or just bugged but it is hardly flawless. So lets all stop flaming each other and help the Devs make better. The exaggerations do not help either.

 

Absolute worst case CC scenario is as follows:

Assumptions

A. CC Break is on CD

B. You are competing against at least 2 enemy DPS who do 1.5k DPS

C. You do not have a friendly player nearby who can heal you

D. Your Health is less than 21K

 

Timeline

1. You are stunned by enemy DPS1 for 4 seconds granting you 800 Resolve

2. You take damage for 4 seconds during the stun while DPS1 & 2 beat on you (10.5k Damage Done)

3. You are stunned by enemy DPS2 for 4 seconds granting you 800 resolve plus 400 bonus resolve plus 800 resolve you already had (giving you 2000 resolve)

4. You take damage for 4 seconds during the stun while DPS1 & 2 beat on you (10.5k Damage Done)

5. You are now dead

 

 

As for your "Boinked" position, it is true that there are graphical display issues with the Resolve bar on the selection reticle. Please rely on the fully operational Resolve bar next to the character portrait in your UI

Edited April 24, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Kaarsa]

1. I already stated the bug (as I perceive it). It does not happen at an alarming rate, but it is enough that I can notice it. It is possible this is because of a communication latency between my game client and the server, but usually my connection is extremely low latency. When my connection spikes, I'm usually sitting still for a second or more with none of my inputs showing through until my connection fixes itself and my client catches up on what it's missed. That issue is relatively new and I'm having my cable provider fix it, but I have been noticing resists and stuns like that since the game came out during periods where I have 16-30ms ping times.

 

2. I understand this, and I disagree with it. We are allowed to disagree on what we find appropriate game mechanics, are we not? I feel the extra 2-4 seconds of immunity gained by waiting until the CC resolves would produce enough of an impact to ease several players' frustrations.

 

3. Spells have 100% accuracy, and no sorc endgame gear comes with accuracy mods or enhancements. None of my other spells "miss" or "resist". Why should my stun? That doesn't make sense. Are you sure that's what's going on here? I saw 1 such instance of the resist yesterday, and i did not see any instances of myself getting stunned while resolve was up. To be fair, this week is the first time I've done PvP in over a month as I took some time away from the game and the stun issue might have been resolved in an earlier patch.

 

4. I agree that my connection problems are not a "bug". I see this effect rarely enough that trying to film for it is counter productive (Might take me several weeks to get you that video due to how little I pvp and how rare the situation is). I have acknowledged that it might be an issue with server communication or my ISP and not necessarily a bug, but that doesn't change the fact that I see it happen.

 

You guys keep pounding against my statements when all I am telling you is what I see as fact. I do not know what is causing the issues (outside what I now know is a feature that I disagree with on white resolve). Even with these issues (which from my perspective are minor, but frustrating), I am within top 3 healing in basic recruit gear with an average of 3 deaths per match (was full champ before 1.2 but not yet done enough for battlemaster. Picked up recruit so my TTK wasn't instant after 1.2) So far been spending my warzone coms on crafting stuff. I'm doing well enough to not need to worry about Battlemaster or War hero yet, and it will give me time to get my valor rank up (sitting at just 28).

 

Your points 1 and 4 do not work with each other well. Either you recognize that your connection is not a bug or you state it is a bug. Make up your mind please.

 

Sure, your spells have 100% accuracy. Point is, everyone has 5% defense and inq/consluars have 10%. As long as you dont have 110% accuracy on force attacks you may miss. It is harder to notice on damage-only spell, becazuse seriously, do you always pay attention to numbers popping on your oppontes head? And not-working CC spell is easy to spot;)

 

About agreeing on disagreeing - no problem on my part:)

[Emencie]

Personally I feel that CC is out of control but the problem is two fold

 

CC in general is outpaced by CC immunities. To take an example from well known WoW. (note I stopped playing before Cata) While many classes had CC almost every class has more than 1 get out of CC free card. Also because of the way diminishing returns worked along side those CC removers, and the fact that teammates could remove CCs from one another, the effectiveness of CC was a lot lower and even got to a point where you were using it at times to force others to react to it blowing a cooldown rather than to actually CC. In addition to this the CC level of classes was varied, you had classes that had a plethora of great CC on high cooldowns or with other negative effects from cast times to opponent healing. Or opponent immunities. And classes with weaker CC but was generally more effective though shorter lived.

 

In this game however the reverse is true. Very few of the classes have the ability outside of the 2 min cooldown to remove CC. Some have a spec that grants a skill that gives some CC immunities but even with all that it does not compare to the 2-4 CCs that every class gets all on considerably shorter cooldowns than the CC removers. This is brought to light even more because everyone has the same CCs. There are very few differences in the CC in this game. Cooldowns, ranges, and durations are all so close to one another and there are very few CC abilities that stand out as different. No one watches for CC because there is nothing we can do about it except use our CC breaker every 2 min.

 

This creates a situation where there is more CC than CC removing ability. Which for a lot of us is very different than what we were used to in other games. Most don’t even try to prevent CC because we have nearly no tools to do so.

The second problem is that Bioware has decided that some CC is less effective than others. When in practice it truly isn’t in all situations. The fact is that some classes (specs) simply have a harder time dealing with (some)CC than others. This is why you read some melee classes talking about how knock backs should be full resolve.

 

Because when they get knocked off a platform in huttball it feels like they’ve been taken out of the action just like any other CC, sometimes longer than any other CC could have done. But by the time they get back into the action BW decided that their resolve should be reset since knock back isn’t that bad. And they can very easily be knocked off again.

 

Roots face the same problem because the Devs decided that roots and slows are not CC because some classes rely on them to make their damage effective but it has a huge adverse effect

Root/immobilize – stop you from moving. Stun – stop you from acting. Don’t get confused between the two.

The problem with this line of thinking is simply on a melee character a root/immobilize can have the same net effect as a stun. If cannot get in range to use any of your abilities to stop a node cap, peel for an ally or do any number of actions required in a warzone then the root has effectively stopped you from acting. It becomes a problem because good teams know this now. And can effectively CC a target indefinitely. Because it doesn’t count as CC.

 

This can easily lead to the feeling of “I was stunned for 20 seconds and killed without being able to do anything!” While not entirely true since they were not “stuned” though they were CCed for 20 seconds unable to do anything and were killed. This is very contrary to what a lot of us are used to because it was just not possible to do in most other MMOs

 

TLDR

The system is working as intended but the system is flawed imho.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Emencie

[The_Brick]

Just took a stopwatch and timed it. 20 consecutive seconds where I could literally do nothing.

 

Get rid of this broken chain CC. The PVP in this game is enough of a joke as it is. It's bad enough I can never use my weak CC when I need to because everyone is mysteriously immune to CC whenever I need to use it, but I'm sitting here for 20 seconds CCed.

100% agree. I love how I can be rooted and blinded with a full resolve bar and yet I cannot grapple someone who has full resolve.

[Maladon]

Bottom line is that CC is out of control in SWTOR. There's also zero downside to using CC in combat. That's not how it's supposed to work. CC should be tactical, not spammable.

[Raific]

Absolute worst case CC scenario is as follows:

Assumptions

A. CC Break is on CD

B. You are competing against at least 2 enemy DPS who do 1.5k DPS

C. You do not have a friendly player nearby who can heal you

D. Your Health is less than 21K

 

Timeline

1. You are stunned by enemy DPS1 for 4 seconds granting you 800 Resolve

2. You take damage for 4 seconds during the stun while DPS1 & 2 beat on you (10.5k Damage Done)

3. You are stunned by enemy DPS2 for 4 seconds granting you 800 resolve plus 400 bonus resolve plus 800 resolve you already had (giving you 2000 resolve)

4. You take damage for 4 seconds during the stun while DPS1 & 2 beat on you (10.5k Damage Done)

5. You are now dead

As for your "Boinked" position, it is true that there are graphical display issues with the Resolve bar on the selection reticle. Please rely on the fully operational Resolve bar next to the character portrait in your UI

 

Presenting scenarios of how PvP would pan out is a bit vain since the entire reason I believe we both PvP is due to the chaotic and ever changing events. Nor can I cannot debate specifics, I will say that I would like to see a decrease in the use of Stuns as a tactic. Even if stuns were a couple seconds, more as an extended interrupt or something. I cannot pretend to have the answer, I just know that stuns seem to be a little out of control. However, I would hate to see them make them almost pointless also.

 

The one thing I believe we can agree on is that we want PvP to be fun and captivating. There is a steady decline in PvPers and much of the reason is Stun/Deaths. There are also thread after thread just like this. It needs to be looked and and refined.

[gromultimas]

A root on a melee class is as good as any full mezz and should affect resolve - especially when lightning is not interruptible when talented, and is puts a slow effect while channelled (W T F?). Snipers/Gunslingers are not interruptible and you can't charge or pull them.

 

That qoute is priceless.

 

Huttball is designed for teamwork...

 

passs the ball

[Quinlynn]

I have I've Awe'd like 20 people at once when Ilum was popular.

 

I have not seen this happen and I'm valor 79 so is this an under utilized skill by Guardians? Is there a good reason why almost every Jugg has their AOE stun/mezz where as guardians don't? Also my understanding that the Jugg one lasts 8sec vs. 6sec for Awe. Is that your idea of mirror?

 

Like the other poster said, carbonize is not AOE unlike BH's and thus another exampel of how Mirror is not Mirror.

[Kaarsa]

I have not seen this happen and I'm valor 79 so is this an under utilized skill by Guardians? Is there a good reason why almost every Jugg has their AOE stun/mezz where as guardians don't? Also my understanding that the Jugg one lasts 8sec vs. 6sec for Awe. Is that your idea of mirror?

 

Like the other poster said, carbonize is not AOE unlike BH's and thus another exampel of how Mirror is not Mirror.

 

And trolling is trolling...

 

Both sith warriors and jedi knight have 6 sec mez.

 

I was mistaken on skill name (used memory instead of this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/alu0sVd/neural-surge

 

Conspiracy theories and tinfoil hats are not good arguments in any discussion.

[RayJ]

Your points 1 and 4 do not work with each other well. Either you recognize that your connection is not a bug or you state it is a bug. Make up your mind please.

 

Sure, your spells have 100% accuracy. Point is, everyone has 5% defense and inq/consluars have 10%. As long as you dont have 110% accuracy on force attacks you may miss. It is harder to notice on damage-only spell, becazuse seriously, do you always pay attention to numbers popping on your oppontes head? And not-working CC spell is easy to spot;)

 

About agreeing on disagreeing - no problem on my part:)

 

We've about got ourselves an agreement. I can only say here that even when I was not having my current latency-spike issue, I was noticing the problem, and so is not necessarily linked to a connection issue. It could be a server communication issue on BioWare's end, where too many requests in a short time span leave some requests ignored, or some checks skipped. I've seen this happen in several other MMOs and other applications that use a lot of simultaneous communication back and forth between a server and client. It could also be that during those time periods my connection was having the same issue as current on a much smaller scale. You and I cannot know if the problem is on BioWare's end or mine from the information I have given. I will pay more attention for stuns and resists, as I will be doing a lot more pvp this week to start working on battlemaster gear.

 

Please acknowledge that some of these players could be experiencing similar problems without being aware of possible communication issues. If connection issues and bugs have the same effect (primarily on systems with intermittent and minor connection problems), how is the player supposed to know it's not a flaw in the game? That's really all I'm getting at on that front, and everyone claiming CC is fine just can't see where the other side is coming from.

[Darth_Philar]

Presenting scenarios of how PvP would pan out is a bit vain since the entire reason I believe we both PvP is due to the chaotic and ever changing events. Nor can I cannot debate specifics, I will say that I would like to see a decrease in the use of Stuns as a tactic. Even if stuns were a couple seconds, more as an extended interrupt or something. I cannot pretend to have the answer, I just know that stuns seem to be a little out of control. However, I would hate to see them make them almost pointless also.

 

The one thing I believe we can agree on is that we want PvP to be fun and captivating. There is a steady decline in PvPers and much of the reason is Stun/Deaths. There are also thread after thread just like this. It needs to be looked and and refined.

 

My point was that it is entirely possible to be stunned and killed without ever having control of your character if the cards are stacked against you. However, the CC meta game is not balanced against the worst case scenario, it is balanced for 1v1. Now we can argue as to what is should be balanced against, but my position is that there are only two things necessary to make these CC complaints go away:

 

1. Remove/Reduce the damage buff from Expertise. PvP gear should increase survivability and nothing else. This will make fights last longer which will make the CC more spread out which will eliminate almost all instances of CC into Death as the DPS output won't be able to pull that off.

 

2. Refresh the CC Breaker on death. Using your CC Breaker intelligently is the single most important part of the CC meta game, however that choice isn't always available to you if you just respawned and that is a flaw in my opinion.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Darth_Philar

[Heideggar]

Getting knocked back 5 or 6 times in a row is fun.

 

not.

 

Roots should be part of the resolve bar. I can't speak for marauders, but for a juggernaut it's almost on par with a stun. Unless you're next to me I can't get to you do anything.

 

I don't know how many, or what ability they were using exactly, but the result was me standing in place for the better part of a minute. I put on auto-run and went to get a drink. Came back and was still there. As you can imagine we lost that huttball.

[Quinlynn]

And trolling is trolling...

 

Both sith warriors and jedi knight have 6 sec mez.

 

I was mistaken on skill name (used memory instead of this:

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/alu0sVd/neural-surge

 

Conspiracy theories and tinfoil hats are not good arguments in any discussion.

 

Conspriacy? I'm asking questions since your the self anoited expert.

 

And how is that BH has an AOE and Trooper does not? Again, you call that mirror?

 

Btw, does AWE cause people to roll on the ground like they are having a tantrum or is that only for Sith? Nice to have that added delay I would guess.

[Kaarsa]

Roots should be part of the resolve bar. I can't speak for marauders, but for a juggernaut it's almost on par with a stun. Unless you're next to me I can't get to you do anything.

 

I don't know how many, or what ability they were using exactly, but the result was me standing in place for the better part of a minute. I put on auto-run and went to get a drink. Came back and was still there. As you can imagine we lost that huttball.

 

Juggs - 1 ability with 10-30m range (2 to be honest, but you cannot charge while rooted;))

3 inherent abilities with 0-10m range. 2 abilities you can spec to with 0-10m range (maybe 1, because I dont think you can use obliterate while rooted, can be wrong thou). On top of that, ability to generate rage without hitting target. And ofc taunts as an added bonus.

 

"I am useless if you are not standing next to me". Well, you maybe are. Juggs are not.

 

Conspriacy? I'm asking questions since your the self anoited expert.

 

And how is that BH has an AOE and Trooper does not? Again, you call that mirror?

 

Btw, does AWE cause people to roll on the ground like they are having a tantrum or is that only for Sith? Nice to have that added delay I would guess.

 

1. I already told you that I was mistaken and trooper mirror of aoe stun is neural surge, not carbonize. It is an aoe stun.

 

2. Awe cause people rolling on the floor, intimidating roar has different animation.

 

Anything else you missundestood/you are not willing to spend 5 minutes using google to check?

Edited April 24, 2012 by Kaarsa

[Derian]

I have not seen this happen and I'm valor 79 so is this an under utilized skill by Guardians? Is there a good reason why almost every Jugg has their AOE stun/mezz where as guardians don't? Also my understanding that the Jugg one lasts 8sec vs. 6sec for Awe. Is that your idea of mirror?

 

Like the other poster said, carbonize is not AOE unlike BH's and thus another exampel of how Mirror is not Mirror.

 

They use it on my server. Maybe the Guardians on your server are terrible. Awe causes people to have an animation like they are being blinded. However when the rolling around thing ends you pop up immediately there is no animation to where you are standing up.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Derian

[Daiyukie]

No, it's not a L2P issue. It's a frequent loss of control issue. Can't go 10 damned seconds in this game without getting CCed.

 

Jesus Christ people. Wait out the first CC, break the second CC immediately, welcome to full resolve. Not hard to figure out

[svartalfimposter]

It's not out of control. It's not fun, but it's not as bad as DAoC's Mezz/Assist ganking.

[Nostrom]

Crowd control is needed just as global CC diminishing returns are needed. SWTORs resolve system does not work, therefore, Players are crowd controlled way too long, sometimes before they can strike and often until they are dead.

It is out of control. Many game developers from previous games have discovered the problem with constant CC and little diminishing returns. I was surprised that the SWTOR developers just don't get it just as I am surprised that many people in this thread just don't get it. It's not a matter of waiting out the 1st stun.

I've been CC'd for 12 seconds completely by two consecutive players taken completely out of action. What do you defenders of CC think about that? Is that good game design? Pvpers don't like being taken out of action completely. PvPers want to fight. CC is needed, but it is badly implemented in this game.

If players are not allowed to fight, they move on to other games, then you will be left with PvEers, a smaller player base and eventually a free to play crap game. Have fun with that..

Edited April 24, 2012 by Nostrom

[denpic]

I want more cc abilities so a can cc for the players that don't use it

[Daiyukie]

Crowd control is needed just as global CC diminishing returns are needed. SWTORs resolve system does not work, therefore, Players are crowd controlled way too long, before they can strike and often until they are dead.

It is out of control. Many game developers from previous games have discovered the problem with constant CC and little diminishing returns. I was surprised that the SWTOR developers just don't get it just as I am surprised that many people in this thread just don't get it. It's not a matter of waiting out the 1st stun.

I've been CC'd for 12 seconds completely by two consecutive players taken completely out of action. What do you defenders of CC think about that? Is that good game design? Pvpers don't like being taken out of action completely. PvPers want to fight. CC is needed, but it is badly implemented in this game.

If players are not allowed to fight, they move on to other games.

 

So your CC break was on cooldown and you're complaining about being stunned and then mezzed. So for 8 seconds you couldn't move but you weren't being wailed on either. Wouldn't be a problem if you had your CC break, that's hardly the game design's fault. I fail to see to see the problem, getting CC'd once (if you have break) or twice (if you don't) is hardly game breaking and, hey, you have CC too =] Even out the field and use yours! If you're dead within that 4 second stun you weren't going to win that fight anyway

[Nostrom]

So your CC break was on cooldown and you're complaining about being stunned and then mezzed. So for 8 seconds you couldn't move but you weren't being wailed on either. Wouldn't be a problem if you had your CC break, that's hardly the game design's fault. I fail to see to see the problem, getting CC'd once (if you have break) or twice (if you don't) is hardly game breaking and, hey, you have CC too =] Even out the field and use yours! If you're dead within that 4 second stun you weren't going to win that fight anyway

 

My CC break was not on cooldown, This was at the beginning of Voidstar and I was running to one side. No action except running was taken by me. My Unbreakable Will was greyed out as soon as I was stunned. It was the beginning of the fight and I was mezzed twice before I could even get to the fight. I'm a healer, so no healing was done for my pug buddies while I was put to sleep twice in a row at the beginning of the fight. No diminishing returns, no resolve. No CC break. Granted, I applaud the skill of the two Mezzers, but you think that is good PvP game design? Really?

Edited April 25, 2012 by Nostrom

[Caeliux]

Resolve.

 

Working as intended.

[Saltydogg]

you clearly need to learn when to use your cc breaker and learn what the resolve bar is and how and when to use it.

 

Because on CC break every 2 minutes is totally a great idea. I have been white barred and still cc'ed. I sit there wondering how long the door respawn is going to be this time. Its a joke and every real pvper knows it. Hell half the pvp population has already left this game. People who stuck out the cc issues in Warhammer left this game faster than it took them to leave hammer. CC needs to be revamped plain and simple. For instance someone who knows what they are doing can cc a commando healer, bring them down to half health before they even can get a cast off. Now try casting your one and only heal and have the disrupted and put on a cool down. Three options left, advanced medical probe, insta heal and the pathetic kolto bomb. I guess maybe we should all just roll the few classes that dominate in cc, now that would be a fun game.

[Nostrom]

I will quote another poster about resolve:

 

I'm going to have to directly disagree. The resolve system seems currently borked. It's a nice theory but it doesn't work. Lets run through a few things.

 

1. It simply is not reliable.

 

I've had people shrug off CC with no resolve and I've been CC with full resolve. In fact my Vanguard did his job and tanked and ate cc, but once was locked down for 30-45 seconds straight. I was out literally the entire fight. In this time I BARELY got to perform perhaps 3 actions even with a CC breaker use at full resolve. I lived through great healing and I did my job tanking....but it was nothing but frustrating for me.

 

That is plainly not supposed to happen under the currently intended system so obviously SOMETHING is broke.

 

2. Most people die within 2 stacked stuns.

 

Get stunned twice in a row and your CC breaker is down? Congrats your dead. Yes I know this works for both sides but it's not fun nor fair for the CC'd player.

 

3. CC breaker CD is 2 minutes, stuns are 1 minute.

 

Oh sweet you did everything right but the fight lasts longer than 60 seconds, too bad your still chain CC/killed. Yes I know this works for both sides but it's not fun nor fair for the CC'd player.

 

4. It's more advantageous for some characters than others.

 

When you wait till mid fight to pop a CC as half of the classes you can get a significant advantage. If they break free you just mezz with these classes and then heal up. Suddenly they are STILL helpless facing a now full hp foe ready to womp them.

 

5. By the time you need it your dead or half dead and guaranteed to lose.

 

You speak of gaming the system to get an advantage VS CC being used upon. HOWEVER the fact is that it's far easier to game the system as the CC user due to lesser CD's, kbs, and snares/roots not being affected.