Watchman loyalist having fun with Combat Spec

[Leagueofone]

I write this primarily from a PVE perspective.

 

I leveled and geared up to full Rakata via the Watchman spec. I still absolutely love this spec. The utility it provides for the group is outstanding (12% group heals everytime Zen or Burn crit cannot be taken for granted).

 

After 1.2 for fun I respec'd to Combat to test it out, maybe just due to pure boredom. I am not saying it is the better spec but I have not switched back to Watchman yet.

 

I am averaging 300-350 more DPS during PVE encounters/raids with Combat than I was with Watchman and I was very good at managing my ability priorities.

 

I truly did not think this would be the case and I still believe the Watchman spec provides more to the raid than Combat but if you are looking for a pure DPS compliment if you already have a Watchman spec Sent in the group Combat has some really good points.

 

For end game content I am currently at 108% accuracy because of Ataru form which basically overcomes the defense chance of the enemy and provides pure additional DPS. Secondly, I did not understand how valueable Precision Slash truly is. 100% armor penetration for 6 seconds every 15 seconds is devastating.

 

Lastly, the reason I think Combat truly has come into its own as many of you know already is that Valor changes the game for Combat being in the first tier of the Watchman spec. I am hitting Zen much faster than when I was with Watchman (namely because of the Blade Rush spam). You are constantly able to speed Blade Rush now which is making the class pretty fun to play.

 

With Precision Slash and Ataru Strike basically replacing Overload Sabre and Cauterize in comparing the damage outpout it really all comes down to whether Merciless Slash (focus spend and damage) is better than an auto crit Blade Storm. For me, a two focus cost, auto crit Blade Storm has been more effective from a damage/resource perspective.

 

Things I miss (and will probably go back to), Group Heals, Damage while away from the target via DoTs, survivability (Force Camo) and utility through Force Kick CD reduction.

 

I just recommend trying it out, especially if you have two or more Sentinel's in your group already who are Watchman, it can be a very good complimentary role.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Leagueofone

[zachbuford]

Pre1.2 when I made a sentinel I had decided I would play her combat regardless of how it compared DPSwise to watchman. Once 1.2 came out needless to say I was pleased. Many other sents from my guild still defend watchman as the most powerful PvE spec and on bosses they may be right; but combat has MUCH more burst damage. Everything in the combat rotation (minus blade storm) has a chance to proc Ataru form. Comparing that to the fact that watchman needs to build up their stacks and they rely on DoTs combat is simply better for questing/trash mobs.

Watchman and even focus may have more survivability, but combat's play-style is the most fun to me.

Edited April 24, 2012 by zachbuford

[Kipp]

So what's your spec look like?

[Leagueofone]

Here is the spec I roll with when I play Combat PVE:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#501bcZGGMRRrbdhzZRM.1

 

I will say this with 100% transparency I am back to being Watchman full time. I find it better for my particular group. I also will note that I parse higher via Watchman than Combat on the dummy. I just noticed that when clearing trash, doing dailies and on some bosses (where burst is needed) Combat has really shined at least for me.

[conundrumx]

I am averaging 300-350 more DPS during PVE encounters/raids with Combat than I was with Watchman and I was very good at managing my ability priorities.

 

No, you weren't. Watchman is about 6% ahead of Combat in pure DPS, so for you to be so drastically above Watchman you must have been doing something very wrong.

 

The only hard data I've seen regarding Sentinel DPS in PvE is my own. Not theorycrafting or "I know a guy who knows a guy," but real, hard data. You can find it here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=436294

 

If you like Combat more and don't care about DPS, keep playing it. I'm not trying to tell you how to enjoy the game. But if your primary concern is DPS, read up on Watchman. If you really are somehow 350 DPS ahead of Watchman as Combat I'd love to see some parses, your gear, and stats.

[bliapis]

i tested both combat and focus in pvp/raiding/daillies and yes everything but watchman is subpar.

 

What combat misses, particulary is the sustained DPS of watchman and -in my opinion- moderate burst of damage.

 

That doesnt say that combat is not viable (or even focus) but when with watchman you WILL push the dps of the group and finish content that you were close to finish but you missed more damage, with watchman you will simply take the job on your shoulders and bring the group atop.

[Leagueofone]

You guys are right, since this is my first MMO it seems that as I am getting better Watchman continues to grow in DPS. Combat is fairly easy rotations but Watchman requires a lot of DoT management that I must not have been good at.

 

I am consistently doing more damage via Watchman now and retract my OP, I've learned a lot on the forums the last few weeks, really appreciate the feedback.

[Rogean]

For those of you that think Combat has an easy rotation, I can understand why you are so adament about watchman being far superior. Combat can be played in easy mode, yes, but to fully maximize it's damage potential takes careful timing and ability prioritizing.

 

I created my Sentinel a few months before 1.2 patch notes were even released, levelled up as Combat and never changed. When 1.2 hit and I started doing parses, my Sentinel was consistently outparsing my Shadow, so I switched to it as my main PvE Raider. There was one other Sentinel in my guild that was a Watchman spec. He too swore that Watchman was the hands down best damage spec. I was raiding with mostly PvP gear (Battlemaster), while he was in full Rakata and had much better stats than I, yet I still managed to consistently match or surpass his damage. It wasn't until he decided to switch to Combat and I explained all my processes that he started outdamaging me again (As he should, being better geared).

 

I think people underestimate Combat. I don't think there are any decent guides out there for playing it (Maybe I should make one) which adequately explains how to maximize it's potential. I am the type of person who studies all abilities and functionality and develops a system of my own, instead of reading a guide on how to play.

 

Furthermore, Combat is a lot of fun in PvP. I can burst people down while maintaining roots, mobility, and control.

Edited May 25, 2012 by Rogean

[Spungey]

no offense but your guildy must suck with Watchman priorities if he was Full Rakata and you in Battlemaster gear. It takes a good deal of concentration to really maximize the Watchman spec.

[conundrumx]

I created my Sentinel a few months before 1.2 patch notes were even released, levelled up as Combat and never changed. When 1.2 hit and I started doing parses, my Sentinel was consistently outparsing my Shadow, so I switched to it as my main PvE Raider. There was one other Sentinel in my guild that was a Watchman spec. He too swore that Watchman was the hands down best damage spec. I was raiding with mostly PvP gear (Battlemaster), while he was in full Rakata and had much better stats than I, yet I still managed to consistently match or surpass his damage. It wasn't until he decided to switch to Combat and I explained all my processes that he started outdamaging me again (As he should, being better geared).

 

Show me the data. I played Combat from 10 to Infernal, I think I knew it pretty well. I did well in PvP, and I soloed just fine. When I switched to Watchman my DPS in ops went up. I have not been able to get a single parse as Combat with higher DPS.

 

Show me some data with your magic, superior Combat rotation. I would like nothing more than to be wrong.

[dkangl]

What I see here is rather simple... We say that Combat is easy mode (and it may well be) and we hear that Watchman takes a good player to maximize its damage output...

 

How do we NOT know that Combat takes an even better player to maximize its damage output? Perhaps all you Watchmen specced Jedi simply don't understand Combat or stink at it like so many people stink at Watchman.....

 

If we actually had a DPS parser that the average Joe could use perhaps we all would see different numbers. I would love to see the logs but until it becomes easier to parse don't think that will happen and someone who is great at Watchman will not be great at Combat so comparing data from that one single person is well irrelevant.

[Crawelc]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=448735 its right there, in black and white, and some yellow I think. All the info you guys are arguing about. It was like 7 threads below this one.

[ReyVagabond]

Who says Combat is easier? I don’t get what they are talking about.

 

My rotation with Watchman is brain dead. All I need to think is where I upload my Burns.

 

For combat to be easier there should be a couple of changes.

 

Precision slash should be changed to be the exact same thing to Overload. A standard buff that last X numbers of attacks.

Zen should last longer. Personally in PVP I never use Zen as combat 1 because it usually end before I manage to do a 5 string of hits, and the Group Speed buff is so much better. To actually use it you need your target to stay still and take it like a man and that never happens, and in PVE the burst damage is not that big.

 

Ataru form is also kind of feat depending and it doesn’t feel that powerful. Let’s recap them.

Ataru- one point to gain it. +3% accuracy and 20% chance to do some extra damage.

Ataru mastery- 2 points so the proc deals 30% more damage.

Defensive forms- 2 points to gain 15% movement speed.

Opportune Attack-2 points to gain 10% more damage when Ataru procs.

Combat trance-1 point to gain 1 focus every 6 seconds when Ataru procs.

Immaculate Force-2 points to deal auto Crit with cyclone slash during Combat trance.

Blade Rush-1 point to gain a sure proc of ataru.

 

So with 1+2+2+2+1+2+1=11 points to gain this is something underwhelming and that if you don’t have Blade Rush you can’t keep it at 100% of the time.

 

The speed is ok, but usually y never notice it, and when I'm rooted or slowed it’s lost.

The Accuracy 3% is some what low. It super gear dependency and I need to be min max everything to use it at it maximum potential.

After that all other stuff needs a proc, I gain tons of stuff but needs the proc. and you dont get the proc till level 40 and once you gain blade rush and the 20% turns into a 100% everithing makes sense.

But for some one leveling up is kind of I’m wasting 7 points to gain stuff that happens on a proc of 20% chance.

 

I just feel that combat as the theorical PvP tree to deal the maximum damage it needs long strings that cannot be considered burst damage. A string of 5 attacks is long enough.

 

For example for me As a Watchman rotation can be Leap, Overload, Zeal, Cauterize (zen), Merciless, and see.

Easy damage from the burns of Overload Saber and Cauterize and merciless. And if I have Zen I do even more damage and I get some healing.

 

For a Combat Leap, Zeal, Precision Slash, Blade Rush, Blade Storm. And you know what I do more damage with the 3 hits from form Watchman that the 4 of Combat.

 

Also dots are better considering and hectic word of PvP, where and root, can make me miss the precious damage bust granted by precision slash. Cauterize in PvP can Slow my target in Combat I need to use another Skill to CC that increases my string to do damage lowering my chance to do spike damage.

 

I’m saying its not exiting leveling up with Combat, I’m saying right now, Watchman has more sustained DPS, and their short burst DPS is easier to do and safer that’s why I chose ir for pvp and pve.

 

I want to remember what was the selling point of Combat, over the other two trees and I don’t find it.

[Crawelc]

Ill just say that any sent<50 is worse than the worst lvl 50. I dont think anyone was talking about a leveling spec. I leveled one mara as rage and one sent as combat/watchman. I had more fun with the rage mara leveling honestly. I play purely combat spec now and I dont disagree that we need a slight buff. I dont think its the armor pen though. I think its the root on saber throw. Combat/Carnage should get a damage buff on this move as we are encouraged to use it.

On Ataru procs, again no one is talking about pre 50 in these threads. I am currently hitting 450-600ish base without crits on my Ataru procs.

Accuracy is over rated trust me, I have gone from 108% with the Ataru buff, spec and companion buff, to 102% which is 95% base and have had no problems in warzones.

 

TL: DR Combat spec got better with the last patch and I hope it gets better than that in the next patch.

[conundrumx]

How do we NOT know that Combat takes an even better player to maximize its damage output? Perhaps all you Watchmen specced Jedi simply don't understand Combat or stink at it like so many people stink at Watchman.....

 

If we actually had a DPS parser that the average Joe could use perhaps we all would see different numbers. I would love to see the logs but until it becomes easier to parse don't think that will happen and someone who is great at Watchman will not be great at Combat so comparing data from that one single person is well irrelevant.

 

People keep trying to suggest that somehow every parse and test is biased in some way. I played Combat for MUCH longer than I did Watchman, the parses still favored Watchman.

 

Suggesting that it is somehow impossible that a person could play both specs properly is ridiculous. There is no magic trick that will somehow make Combat significantly better than Watchman. If there was it would be plastered all over the forums.

 

For single target DPS (in PvE) Watchman is better. I've got data to back up my claims, no one claiming the opposite does.

[thepilk]

Ill just say that any sent<50 is worse than the worst lvl 50. I dont think anyone was talking about a leveling spec. I leveled one mara as rage and one sent as combat/watchman. I had more fun with the rage mara leveling honestly. I play purely combat spec now and I dont disagree that we need a slight buff. I dont think its the armor pen though. I think its the root on saber throw. Combat/Carnage should get a damage buff on this move as we are encouraged to use it.

On Ataru procs, again no one is talking about pre 50 in these threads. I am currently hitting 450-600ish base without crits on my Ataru procs.

Accuracy is over rated trust me, I have gone from 108% with the Ataru buff, spec and companion buff, to 102% which is 95% base and have had no problems in warzones.

 

TL: DR Combat spec got better with the last patch and I hope it gets better than that in the next patch.

 

One of the things that makes Combat a bit softer on damage than Watchman is that the Ataru stance forces you to lose 10% to ALL attacks since you can no longer use the Juyo stance. So you are forced to give up 10% damage for 3% Accuracy and an occasional low-mid damage proc that you cant control till you have Blade Rush.

[Slamuel]

I write this primarily from a PVE perspective.

 

I leveled and geared up to full Rakata via the Watchman spec. I still absolutely love this spec. The utility it provides for the group is outstanding (12% group heals everytime Zen or Burn crit cannot be taken for granted).

 

After 1.2 for fun I respec'd to Combat to test it out, maybe just due to pure boredom. I am not saying it is the better spec but I have not switched back to Watchman yet.

 

I am averaging 300-350 more DPS during PVE encounters/raids with Combat than I was with Watchman and I was very good at managing my ability priorities.

 

I truly did not think this would be the case and I still believe the Watchman spec provides more to the raid than Combat but if you are looking for a pure DPS compliment if you already have a Watchman spec Sent in the group Combat has some really good points.

 

For end game content I am currently at 108% accuracy because of Ataru form which basically overcomes the defense chance of the enemy and provides pure additional DPS. Secondly, I did not understand how valueable Precision Slash truly is. 100% armor penetration for 6 seconds every 15 seconds is devastating.

 

Lastly, the reason I think Combat truly has come into its own as many of you know already is that Valor changes the game for Combat being in the first tier of the Watchman spec. I am hitting Zen much faster than when I was with Watchman (namely because of the Blade Rush spam). You are constantly able to speed Blade Rush now which is making the class pretty fun to play.

 

With Precision Slash and Ataru Strike basically replacing Overload Sabre and Cauterize in comparing the damage outpout it really all comes down to whether Merciless Slash (focus spend and damage) is better than an auto crit Blade Storm. For me, a two focus cost, auto crit Blade Storm has been more effective from a damage/resource perspective.

 

Things I miss (and will probably go back to), Group Heals, Damage while away from the target via DoTs, survivability (Force Camo) and utility through Force Kick CD reduction.

 

I just recommend trying it out, especially if you have two or more Sentinel's in your group already who are Watchman, it can be a very good complimentary role.

 

This thread is funny, becaus I was a combat loyalist, switched to watchman a month ago, and like it even more than combat.

[Cooperal]

When I first started out I focused on the combat tree. At first, it looked like it was the tree that most capitalised on the fact you have more than one lightsaber so I thought "yeah what the hell, it should be possible to easily do the story with any spec". So I began.

 

My attacks felt strong and I did eventually tear my way through the story and up to 50. I had heard plenty of people banging on about Watchman being the best as I progressed. I didn't doubt them but I thought I'd stick to my guns for a while longer. Not too long after 50 I switched to Watchman to give its DPS a go.

 

After getting my rotation down I was good to go. I've now played watchman for a greater length of time than combat despite using the latter til 50. The damage "felt" superior but I never had the numbers kept down. I rolled with the knowledge that it's the "safe" choice.

 

Quite early on I came to a conclusion which I've maintained ever since. Combat spec appears to lean its purpose strongly in favor of PvP. While a watchmans DoTs will does a massive chunk of their damage, and can follow a fleeing enemy, it's still always more effective to keep them in saber-range. And that's the beauty of combat spec. Their crippling throw (not to mention master-strike) immobilise capabilities and their low cooldowns meld in beautifully with their small variety of other CC abilities. I cannot stress enough how much the potential of these abilities are overlooked and underestimated.

 

It's nice that force leap can have a reduced cooldown, or that Watchman can have it's minimum range removed, but Combat is THE spec to go for anti-kiting. Unfortunately and obviously, kiting is almost a non-existant issue with the world of PvE. Being that simple immobilises are not impacted by the Resolve system, they also have a decent application for exploiting huttball traps and defending cappers from interrupts.

 

I wish I did have the figures readily available because it could help flip my opinion. But right now Watchman is the safe all-rounder because it's widely believed to be the best at flat-out damage, while throwing down a trickle of healing. Sadly this belief has spanned so deeply into my guild that they won't tolerate sents that don't use it for PvE. A trait that I absolutely despise in communities.

[Rogean]

I've seen mentioned two or three times now people putting a summary on Ataru form calling it a 3% accuracy increase and a "occasional small attack". I don't think you guys realize just how much damage Ataru Form Strike counts for...

 

Here's a screenshot of the last 6 minute parse I did before I read this thread again. I've done parses over 1600 dps but this was just my latest.

 

This is on the Operations training dummy on the fleet.

I did NOT use any adrenals, relics, or inspiration, so this is a clean sustained dps parse.

 

Gear:

War Hero Weapons, Helm, Hands

Black Hole Ear, Implants

Campaign Legs, Boots

Rakata Chest, Belt, Bracer, Relic (224 Internal Damage)

 

http://www.rogean.com/images/parse1525.png

 

As you can see, Ataru Form contributes the second most damage.

My gear is also not full PvE, several slots are War Hero, which is a significant loss in primary stat.

Edited June 2, 2012 by Rogean

[conundrumx]

I think it's easy for people who haven't spent any time parsing to underestimate Ataru form procs.

 

The weapons probably skew your results (compared to mine), but I would like to see the actual parse data. I don't think I've ever seen someone with anything resembling proof that Combat could break the 1500 mark.

[KingFink]

People keep trying to suggest that somehow every parse and test is biased in some way.

 

 

The weapons probably skew your results (compared to mine), but I would like to see the actual parse data.

 

I gotta say. I don't disagree with you, and would love to see the two of you compare parse date more in depth to really get to the crux of this biscuit here...

 

But that was too funny to me. Really. I loved it. Can't wait to see more data crunching!

[Rogean]

but I would like to see the actual parse data.

 

Here's the Combat Log: http://www.rogean.com/1525dpslog.txt

Ask Mr. Robot's Fight Analysis: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/028b8da5-7e88-4737-a4f1-aa88e5c99a9b/player/1#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1

 

I even made a video of a different but similar fight. This one was slightly less than 1500 (Was around 1450) DPS but I wanted to show my skill tree, stats, gear, buffs, and my priority and rotations.

 

Video:

Edited June 3, 2012 by Rogean

[conundrumx]

Here's the Combat Log: http://www.rogean.com/1525dpslog.txt

Ask Mr. Robot's Fight Analysis: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/028b8da5-7e88-4737-a4f1-aa88e5c99a9b/player/1#d=0,f=1,t=1,b=1

 

I even made a video of a different but similar fight. This one was slightly less than 1500 (Was around 1450) DPS but I wanted to show my skill tree, stats, gear, buffs, and my priority and rotations.

 

Video:

 

What buffs did you have? Could you post your stats? I'd also like to ask that you repeat the test with Rakata (140) hilts if possible. You can see some testing and parsing I did about a month ago here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=436294

 

If your data with Rakata weapon data conflicts with my own I'll have to redo everything.

[Rogean]

What buffs did you have? Could you post your stats?

 

It's all in the video. Put it on 1080p and full screen.

 

I don't have Rakata hilts.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Rogean

[conundrumx]

It's all in the video. Put it on 1080p and full screen.

 

I don't have Rakata hilts.

 

With similar stats and buffs, but inferior weapons I was able to do the same (1% higher) DPS as Watchman. It could be that with 146 hilts my DPS would be decently higher, or Combat scales better, or I just played Combat wrong.

 

Frankly, I think the first scenario is the most likely.