Mistaking OP classes for good players.

[Morticoccus]

Funny, since the forum community seems to think marauders are harder to play than operatives.

 

They are *different* in playstyle from operatives, with more possible input. Clearly you do better with a more freeflow class rather than the striated burst combo type.

 

Possible, yes. But another good call is that marauders are a bit too good atm, isn't it?

 

Concealment operative has been nerfed many times and currently suffer from lack of burst damage as well as problems with its energy system except for in healer spec.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Morticoccus

[Dmasterr]

^ This. I play a Sentinel the "counter" to sorcs and I STILL have trouble when I get focused by two of them. Do I think they are OP? Sure....they beat me so of COURSE they are OP.

 

SRSLY? thats your reasoning? you have "trouble" solo fighting against 2 sorcs AT THE SAME TIME?.

 

Do you know what happens to any other classes that has 2 marauders/sentinels on them? they dont have "trouble"....... THEY MELT !, in about 3-5 seconds.

 

And unless they are a tank or guarded healer, they melt vs 1 marauder/sentinel alone.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Dmasterr

[PloGreen]

I believe it's more a flavor of the week kind of thing. Not because of the class being "op" but because somebody "said" they were. And when more people roll one certain class, the more other people fight that class. The more people fight that class, the more they get beat by that class. It's not because they're op it's just the class that 60% of the wz is playing.

 

Lol no, so all these new maras and jugs I see wrecking face gained skill overnight? Class balance is fine? We are just being outplayed. Forgive me for saying this bit that is bunch of condescending tripe. Maras are too strong, period. This patch was nothing but a buff to melee and now people are claiming that we are getting outplayed.

 

It's not a case of being outplayed, you can't outplay a class that is clearly over the top.

 

Jugs are ok, maras no.

 

You really think pvp is balanced? Since day one if early access it's never been this unbalanced. Bringing maras back in to line will happen, because it's obvious to anyone with a clue they are strong - everyone is refilling them because they see how effective they are.

 

Balanced? Laughable.

 

Rename the thread "mistaking good players for op classes", much closer to the truth.

Edited April 23, 2012 by PloGreen

[Morticoccus]

SRSLY? thats your reasoning? you have "trouble" solo fighting against 2 sorcs AT THE SAME TIME?.

 

Do you know what happens to any other classes that has 2 marauders/sentinels on them? they dont have "trouble"....... THEY MELT !, in about 3-5 seconds.

 

And unless they are a tank or guarded healer, they melt vs 1 marauder/sentinel alone.

 

Gunslinger/sniper begs to differ, if you want to kill sentinels, get a really big gun.

 

Then again, I guess most people will be too busy complaining about how sniper sucks due to its "mobility problems" and how you can't kite. However in the hypothetical 1v1 situation you described a sniper wouldn't *need* to kite.

[Darth_Sookie]

Marauders take skill bro.

 

Charge, Gore, Ravage next target. If it goes bad you can always go invulnerable or stealth away until you get healed.

[Xerain]

Marauders take skill bro.

 

Charge, Gore, Ravage next target. If it goes bad you can always go invulnerable or stealth away until you get healed.

 

lol if only all that did enough damage to kill someone... maybe a fresh 50 with no gear... would be funny to see.

[alcek]

It takes me to 40% hp on 1000+ expertise, so yes, i am about to die after.

[chimex]

At last, a thread that makes complete sense!!! +1 to the OP i believe

 

I do not believe Maras/Sents are OP'ed, and I play a Sorc (madness spec). They do great burst damage, but if you use your abilities correctly, you can mimimise this and play effectively against them. If a Mara/Sent sees you from a distance, as a Sorc, you KNOW they'll use leap/charge, so be sure to counter it BEFORE it occours. There are several things you can do. Bubble, Electrecute to name a couple. If you get into serious trouble, wirlwind. That's 8 seconds to push 2 heals on yourself and refresh your bubble. Those two heals can give you alot more time to survive.

 

It's not that some classes are OP, it's that the person playing them is either good at playing it, or you did not counter to the classes fighting style correctly.

 

There are a couple of classes that give me some trouble. It's not because they are OP, it is simply because I have yet to figure out the most effective style of combat against them. I Personally think it's bad taste to blame something that out of peoples control if you are getting creamed by certain classes or players.

 

After a time with our favorite class, we often get "stuck" in a certain style of play. Ths is not always the most effective. Most generic as an "all-rounder" playstyle possably, but different classes should mean you alter your play to fit accordingly.

 

Before asking for the nerf bat, consider the following:

 

1) Is that person good at their class?

 

2) Have I considered every option at my disposal to better my combat against class XYZ?

 

More than likely, it's:

 

1) Yes

 

2) No

 

And again, great post

 

x

[Migrainium]

My first char and main is a marauder and I have a levling madness sorc that I've been playing off an on pre-1.2 and post 1.2. I can face roll any maurader pre and post 1.2 on my sorc without taking much damage, if any, because I know the weaknesses of the class from my experience as a maruader. But I guess that just makes the madness sorc class op with a need to be nerfed. Edited April 23, 2012 by Migrainium

[woahdude]

this op and thread is epic along with the 2 posters above me...

 

thats is all

[Ancen]

It takes me to 40% hp on 1000+ expertise, so yes, i am about to die after.

 

Sounds like someone stacked all glass-cannon offense and no endurance, then...

[chimex]

My first char and main is a marauder 1.2 and I have a levling madness sorc that I've been playing off an on pre-1.2 and post 1.2. I can face roll any maurader pre and post 1.2 on my sorc without taking much damage, if any, because I know the weaknesses of the class from my experience as a maruader. But I guess that just makes the madness sorc class op with a need to be nerfed.

 

ssshhhhhh they're on to us!!!!!

 

x

Edited April 23, 2012 by chimex

[Luminastik]

At last, a thread that makes complete sense!!! +1 to the OP i believe

 

I do not believe Maras/Sents are OP'ed, and I play a Sorc (madness spec). They do great burst damage, but if you use your abilities correctly, you can mimimise this and play effectively against them. If a Mara/Sent sees you from a distance, as a Sorc, you KNOW they'll use leap/charge, so be sure to counter it BEFORE it occours. There are several things you can do. Bubble, Electrecute to name a couple. If you get into serious trouble, wirlwind. That's 8 seconds to push 2 heals on yourself and refresh your bubble. Those two heals can give you alot more time to survive.

 

It's not that some classes are OP, it's that the person playing them is either good at playing it, or you did not counter to the classes fighting style correctly.

 

There are a couple of classes that give me some trouble. It's not because they are OP, it is simply because I have yet to figure out the most effective style of combat against them. I Personally think it's bad taste to blame something that out of peoples control if you are getting creamed by certain classes or players.

 

After a time with our favorite class, we often get "stuck" in a certain style of play. Ths is not always the most effective. Most generic as an "all-rounder" playstyle possably, but different classes should mean you alter your play to fit accordingly.

 

Before asking for the nerf bat, consider the following:

 

1) Is that person good at their class?

 

2) Have I considered every option at my disposal to better my combat against class XYZ?

 

More than likely, it's:

 

1) Yes

 

2) No

 

And again, great post

 

x

I wish pvp was like this. I wish my OVERPOWERED 3-4k bubble @50 would stop a marauder from charging. I'm so glad to know that the four second stun is super overpowered, as well as that 8 second cc which will totally always last 8 seconds, take off your bubble's debuff, and let you have time to heal yourself to full. I'm so glad to know that you've probably faced one of the worst marauders ever, and figured out that sorcs were overpowered, because they need a nerf!

Edited April 23, 2012 by Luminastik

[Surbatu]

Funny, since the forum community seems to think marauders are harder to play than operatives.

watch/anni sents/maras are one of the easiest to play

no rotations - just spam dots and all and u'll be fine

other specs are much harder - maras are very vulnerable to CC, hard to sustain the rotations

 

opers are much harder to be good with then any mara spec

[chimex]

I wish pvp was like this. I wish my OVERPOWERED 3-4k bubble @50 would stop a marauder from charging. I'm so glad to know that the four second stun is super overpowered, as well as that 8 second cc which will totally always last 8 seconds, take off your bubble's debuff, and let you have time to heal yourself to full. I'm so glad to know that you've probably faced one of the worst marauders ever, and figured out that sorcs were overpowered, because they need a nerf!

 

I'm not saying anythings OP'ed, that's the point I was making (and the op put across very well, I might add). The only time Whirlwind lasts less than 8 seconds is if the target takes damage, so don't damage it.

 

The point i'm making is that there is always a way around problems such as large burst damage etc, you just need to figure it out. I gave a couple of lip service examples only, there are plenty of other "tricks" up a Sorcs' sleeve (or to be more accurate, ANY classes sleeves). It's up to the player to discover them.

 

Of course as you pointed out, there are bad players out there. Those players just give you a nice easy kill.

 

Class+good gear does not always = good player.

 

knowing your stenghts and weaknesses vs certain classes+ utilising that knowledge effectively = good player

 

x

[Niil]

It's pretty funny to see all the marauders hop on the "we're not overpowered!" bandwagon!

 

But really, overpowered is a very generic term. And looking at the balance situation critically, I wouldn't say it's "marauders" per say. Pre 1.2 marauders were bad at low end, good at high end gearwise. But everyone is usually bad at low end of gear, Marauders just felt it a little more. They had cooldowns they could use to draw it out, but fights lasted rather long, enough time that they encountered more "critical moments" than they had cooldowns for. Thus, they died. They were still scary to *most* ranged classes (snipers being the exception).

 

Then all of a sudden expertise changed. We went from damage reduction being better than damage output to damage output being equal to damage reduction. The short and sweet is people take more damage now than they did pre-patch. Even tanks were complaining they felt like tissue paper. And if tanks felt this way, everyone else felt it much more sharply. Add onto this that healers took a heavy hit in throughput, well....two of them did. Operatives got some QoL adjustments but weren't really brought up. Sorcs and BH's got nerfed rather dramatically in that department. So not only did pvp healing output go down, people started taking more damage. The developers have also stated that the TTK is lower than they intend due to some debuff stacking bugs.

 

Okay, so looking at the overall, kiting classes (most ranged) need to draw fights out to win when directly engaged with people. They're getting their faces kicked in because they can't do that anymore due to how much damage people are taking (and the plethora of ways people have to get back in combat, most notably Sith Warrior and their respective counterparts on pub side). They're also not getting healed as much because healer participation in warzones has diminished. Marauders cooldowns in particular are even stronger than they were pre-patch because they guarantee extended life duration that exceeds how long most people live when someone attacks them already, on top of the typical lifespan a marauder has. Add in that they can also force camo out of combat giving them a freebie opener. Tank sins, who were strong before the patch (many said they felt they were overpowered) were not nerfed, but their damage output has increased because everyone is taking more damage. In the end, operatives are still the only melee without a short mobility cooldown, and they suffered several repeated burst damage nerfs prior to 1.2. Sorcs (dps) received big nerfs on their big damage output moves (i.e. no more wrath chain lightning). They don't fare terribly, but they just don't have the killing power of melee (I include powertech in this category, mobile instant cast classes that have big hitters that do 4k+ damage).

 

In the end, if you think classes are balanced now, it's because you're playing one of the classes where the current combat design inherently provides you with advantages. Most ranged are fodder right now. They can only pressure when someone isn't looking at them, because as soon as someone does they explode. Healers are...meh...I've seen some do well, but it's hard to gauge whether it's because they're just that good or whether they're facing off against opponents that have low gear while they have high end gear. I can say I've chewed through plenty of BM healers solo on my champ geared marauder, though that was during the first few days after the patch and most were probably adjusting to the new pace and the changes. Even still, I tend to think they're in a bad position.

 

Ultimately, I think if the duration of combats was increased (ie damage reduction on expertise was improved slightly, or damage dealt was reduced slightly) we'd find ourselves where combat was balanced better. I'd still feel additional AC specific tweaks would be necessary to fine tune the balance after that though. I just don't trust we'd get good balance after the repeatedly heavy handed nerfs to operatives (dps), sorcs (both dps and heals), and bounty hunters (healers).

[Luminastik]

Then all of a sudden expertise changed. We went from damage reduction being better than damage output to damage output being equal to damage reduction

Wait a minute, when did I miss this? damage reduction was better than damage output at a point in time?!

[Numerii]

My first char and main is a marauder and I have a levling madness sorc that I've been playing off an on pre-1.2 and post 1.2. I can face roll any maurader pre and post 1.2 on my sorc without taking much damage, if any, because I know the weaknesses of the class from my experience as a maruader. But I guess that just makes the madness sorc class op with a need to be nerfed.

 

I've had similar experiences while playing Madness. It's a great 1v1 spec against melee, mainly because of Creeping Terror's root. Downside to that spec is that it starves you of Force, and it folds quickly under focus.

[mamosh]

so you saying with 1.2 all the mara suddely became pro players and all the other classes become bad players? hmmm ok

 

i just hate the fact that even a bad mara you have to use all you got or he will rip you apart (1200+ expertise) and if you unlucky and got some cds still not ready you die to them

 

and try telling a pug not to hit a mara for 6 seconds that is wrecking them

[alcek]

Sounds like someone stacked all glass-cannon offense and no endurance, then...

Pvp gear is for pvp, right? I am all pvp gear, BM + 2wh pieces. So what do you suggest, to REMOVE pvp mods, and stack PVE endurance mods and enhancements or what? Also enlighten me how i can gear just to avoid the overpowered nonsense of a class we are speaking about? And if you think 1000+ expertise is glass cannon... i am speechless here.

[Niil]

Wait a minute, when did I miss this? damage reduction was better than damage output at a point in time?!

 

Search the forums. There are some good posts out there that show how damage is mitigated with expertise and the current numbers are in place because of the math used. Damage output now is equivalent to the damage reduction provided, which is why there are differing %'s on damage dealt and damage received. At first glance, it seems like the multiplicative effect would even out, however it did not.

 

Edit: Here's the thread that explains all the math, proving that pre 1.2 damage reduction was better than damage output.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=423665&highlight=expertise

 

For those that don't want to read through the page, damage is amplified going out, damage is reduced coming in.

 

100 damage out before expertise = 110 damage out at 10% increase

110 damage in before expertise = 99 damage in at 10% decrease

99 > 100 so 10% damage done and reduced is not equivalent because of when it's applied.

 

This just gets amplified at larger damage numbers. The current expertise numbers account for that discrepancy.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Niil

[Hett]

Let me start by saying I'm a rage spec almost fully bm geared juggernaut. With that being said I have had plenty of good games AND plenty of bad ones. Games where I'm top dps with the most medals and not so top dps with an average amount of medals... When I get beat by a certain class a few times I don't immediately assume that certain class is op, I was simply outplayed.

 

I was a tank spec juggernaut before and after getting my *** handed to me on many occasions, I came on here and qq'ed like everyone else that does after a few bad games. After doing some research I found that people have succeeded very well with the immortal spec. I took their advice, tried it, and just couldn't figure it out. So I switched back to rage, the spec that I had pretty much been from lvl 1, so you could say I'm pretty familiar with that particular build.

 

That all being said, I get beat by the people with the same class as me, same spec as me. I get beat by every other class in the game. But I also beat every class in the game. You catch me off guard, you have your cool downs and I don't, chances are you win. Same goes for me, catching you off guard when I have my cool downs and you don't.

 

So many posts here claiming all these "op" classes when people just can't handle the fact that well... That guy/girl just simply outplayed you. They assume that because they are fully geared, they shouldn't get beat down just like the rest of the people in the warzone.

 

Put it simply, the game is pretty damn balanced in pvp. Start getting used to the fact that some people are better at playing this game than you are.

 

Can we stick this post and put this text in the homepage, the EULA and the ROC of every MMO?

 

Thanks,

A Player

[Niil]

Can we stick this post and put this text in the homepage, the EULA and the ROC of every MMO?

 

Thanks,

A Player

 

Balance is subjective. Some folks are here advocating that the game be balanced in a way that favors them (i.e. people playing the classes that are currently doing well). Other people are here disagreeing about balance (i.e. people that have experienced the game from a perspective where their particular classes aren't doing well). Some people play both and are actually discussing the impact from an overall perspective and their particular preferences towards balance. Agreeing with the op only shows your particular bias. Nothing more, nothing less.

[me_unknown]

My first char and main is a marauder and I have a levling madness sorc that I've been playing off an on pre-1.2 and post 1.2. I can face roll any maurader pre and post 1.2 on my sorc without taking much damage, if any, because I know the weaknesses of the class from my experience as a maruader. But I guess that just makes the madness sorc class op with a need to be nerfed.

you can do that ONLY because you are not elevel 50. you will not kill any sent/mara at level 50, if you opponent has bm gear (you may have war hero gear though).

 

dd sage sorcs profit from the bad gear before level 50 but they do not scale with gear as much as all other classes.

 

you win because your utilities give you the time to damage your opponent? at 50 you won't even scratch them much within that time. it is the impression of pre 50 players that created the op claim about dd sages / sorcs. at 50 with t2 or above (pre 1.2) they were one of the two worst classes and they stilll are in that position.

 

but you will discover this yourself soon.

[ComeAndSee]

Bounty Hunters were really the only class that I considered overpowered before 1.2 because their damage rotation was so simplistic that even a chimpanzee could do it.