PVP: DPS Need Not Apply

[nschlan]

Yeah and everyone has them, You can use them to peel people off heales as well.

 

They have at most...like 2 DPS with them. They're not gonna get kills. Go l2p, you're just another baddy who spends more time crying than he does working on improving.

[LoKiei]

I will make a compromise.

 

If healers give up the ability to do any damage at all, and also give up their ability to CC/stun/root/mes, I will be willing to say a healer should be able to tank a dps 1 on 1.

 

But healers don't want that, they want to retain all their healing abilities and at the same time be able to do damage and have other utility skills.

 

Healers want to be able to do everything, on this forum they are the worst group of QQ'rs in exsistence.

Edited April 22, 2012 by LoKiei

[nschlan]

I will make a compromise.

 

If healers give up the ability to do any damage at all, and also give up their ability to CC/stun/root/mes, I will be willing to say a healer should be able to tank a dps 1 on 1.

 

But healers don't want that, they want to retain all their healing abilities and at the same time be able to do damage and have other utility skills.

 

Healers want to be able to do everything, on this forum they are the worst group of QQ'rs in exsistence.

 

Actually, healing was fine pre 1.2 I'm sorry you think you should be able to kill a healer 1v1, but it's not a 1v1 game. It's balanced around TEAM play. Maybe you need to spend less time crying and more time getting better

 

And for the record, it's bads like you who cry the most cause you can't be a 1v1 god against a healer.

[LoKiei]

Actually, healing was fine pre 1.2 I'm sorry you think you should be able to kill a healer 1v1, but it's not a 1v1 game. It's balanced around TEAM play. Maybe you need to spend less time crying and more time getting better

And for the record, it's bads like you who cry the most cause you can't be a 1v1 god against a healer.

 

It's kinda funny you wrote that.....

Edited April 22, 2012 by LoKiei

[nschlan]

It's kinda funny you wrote that.....

 

It's also kinda funny that you seem to think you're good.

[Ravashakk]

I will make a compromise.

 

If healers give up the ability to do any damage at all, and also give up their ability to CC/stun/root/mes, I will be willing to say a healer should be able to tank a dps 1 on 1.

 

But healers don't want that, they want to retain all their healing abilities and at the same time be able to do damage and have other utility skills.

 

Healers want to be able to do everything, on this forum they are the worst group of QQ'rs in exsistence.

 

Healers' counter offer: We will meet your demands if you get rid of your interrupts, cc, and any possible healing (medpacs included). Also, for every moment you neglect protecting your healer, you lose valor, comms, credits, and 50k dmg done.

[Caelrie]

healers simply put should not be able to out heal the dps from a dps class on their own.

 

And if that's the case, every healer your team has makes it weaker.

[ExpectWar]

well seeing how i play all 3 healing classes (2 out of 3 are full BM, the other is 3 peices away) and about 15-30 wzs a day, i really dont see why so many healers are complaining and saying that they're "usless" now. i play will premades and pug all the time and besides some heat issues (which are not bad at all) i really dont even feel a difference after the patch. none of the healers in my guild have even said a thing post patch (2 mercs, 1 sorc). the only people complaining about healers are the people posting threads about it, which is about .1% of the healers out there.

[Balmuck]

I will make a compromise.

 

If healers give up the ability to do any damage at all, and also give up their ability to CC/stun/root/mes, I will be willing to say a healer should be able to tank a dps 1 on 1.

 

But healers don't want that, they want to retain all their healing abilities and at the same time be able to do damage and have other utility skills.

Healers want to be able to do everything, on this forum they are the worst group of QQ'rs in exsistence.

 

 

 

 

We'll be glad to heal, ONLY, as long as you agree on dropping all your CC, utility and defensive cool downs.

 

This is only fair right? Oh, wait, it's not? Well, I guess you're just another hypocrite who only loves to herpa derp 4 buttons and kill people.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Balmuck

[Tenthletter]

Healers do not have offensive potential unless they combine it with dmg. And this goes back to the equal principle. People will reply with posts about how an amazing specced healer overpowered a dps and healed themselves all the dmg caused by the DPS and then killed the DPS. Guess what... THAT'S NOT EQUAL.

 

Nothing in this game is equal. You can throw around all the theorycraft in the world, but the reality is this is a team game. Healers do have teammates that should be peeling, guarding and DPSing for them. If a Healer heals himself for 20k and a DPS does 20k damage, then both playerrs in a vacuum even each other out. That's just as good as killing each other. PVP however is not a vacuum, So this entire argument is flawed.

 

Show me an 800k dmg in Huttball, or Alderaan.... It's far harder to achieve. In fact potentially the only time you ever could put up huge numbers in those warfronts was BECAUSE of pre 1.2 healing. And I'm frankly appalled at how shameful and mathmatically incorrect some of the posters are. SWTOR only counts healing that actually heals a target. This is to prevent healers from just spamming heals on themselves at full health to get big numbers. So when you tell me "OMG this healer healed for 800k!! NERF!" you are only stating one thing, that youre DPS was 800k. You never heal for more dmg then the other team can inflict. (Or your own noble sacrifice, but that more of a work around and healers can still do it post 1.2). And to take the matter further, healers usually get LESS healing because when people are out of combat they heal themselves and make the healer lose the potential healing.

 

What's your point? Some maps require more healing due to their nature (cap and defend a node) and some do not (running the ball with good passing you don't even need damage). Healing is just as important as damage in any of these scenarios.

 

I find it laughable that DPS dare to say in 1.2 Work as team to protect the healer Dude. Let me tell you what every healer who reads that thinks. I have been in so many games where the healers are marked, MARKED WITH PRETTY LIGHTNING BOLTS AND CROSSHAIRS, and you know what DPS does? They don't go after them!

 

Nope, they don't if they're bad. Healers can't facetank a bunch of DPS anymore. But to claim that they're worthless etc. is flat out wrong. The team in PVP with more healers STILL usually wins. Best setup I've seen is three. Two to heal each other when somebody is focused, and the third left alone to heal the group. If you're not experiencing that, then your DPS/Tanks need to start peeling for you, or you need to start playing with better people.

 

Not going to bother with the rest. Tank/Healer is still the best 2 person combo in the game. Tanks do enough DPS to kill anyone in time (time the healer gives them), and Taunt + Guard is flat out ridiculous mitigation. Find a good tank to play with, or some competent DPS that know how to peel. Maybe both. PUGs are PUGs. You can't base anything off of them, ever.

[Tenthletter]

<< They (healers) went from being very good to being useless... >>

 

Apparently nobody scores in Huttball anymore either.

 

I mean with TTK so low, hyper amazing DPS 2 shotting people, and useless Healing, the ball never leaves mid. Right?

 

o wait...

[Jenzali]

I don't think post-1.2 healers are the root of the problem, rather it's the absurdly short TTK is devaluing non-DPS roles and strategy in general. Even with the current nerfs, healers would have been fine if the damage wasn't absolutely also raised through the roof.

 

Also, if you're a masochist, try playing a healer as a fresh level 50 and stepping foot into a warzone.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Jenzali

[Drayoc]

This post is full of win.

 

As A healer I know that unless DPS focus fires the other teams healer, they might as well be fighting with wet noddles. Even when I repeat it over and over again, "Focus fire ____" Rarely do I get people to cooperate.

 

And DPS, do you know how hard and stressful of a job healing is? Not only do you have to worry about yourself the enemy and the objectives, but you also have to worry about your ENTIRE team! As a healer you are responsible for the life of your team. When people die, they blame you, but when they live, they often don't notice. Heealing is one of the least popular classes to play, why? Because its more difficult.

 

BW decided to make it even harder to heal and makes the class even less popular. What's next? Tanks have less HP?

[HoosierDuke]

This post is full of win.

 

Not only do you have to worry about yourself the enemy and the objectives, but you also have to worry about your ENTIRE team! As a healer you are responsible for the life of your team.

 

This always makes me chuckle when tards gloat about killing a healer ... yes you killed the healer with the singular purpose of killing them ... the healer OTOH was focused on 8 players.

 

There is a reason, only those with the balls made of steel ... heal!

[Morticoccus]

A bit drastic and infact quite a long post but I agree with most of your points completely.

 

" BIG NUMBERS - BAEM BAEM - IWIN BUTTON - KKTHXBB" is all what's on their mind...

 

I know a lot of good PVP-players (even DPS) who have quit SWTOR due to the changes in 1.2. They enjoyed the first 2-3days and by then at the latest realised the game is broken.

 

My main rep character is a sent, my main imperial character is a pyrotech that I'm planning to go AP with as soon as I get to level 40 when the spec actually works. My imperial alt that I'm levelling at the moment is an operative healer.

 

Now, I've never even cared about the actual numbers until I started playing healer (Because now I'm always looking for crits) I always thought of two things only, what to do to kill the enemy and if killing said enemy would benefit my team in any way.

 

In most cases the answer to question 2 is "no".

 

As a healer you instead only have to heal people and then the questions become "Is this guy standing 5 feet in front of me anywhere on my ops frame because I can't click target him" and "If I heal this guy will he stand and fight or run off and leave me to die?"

[Elear]

4 healers. 4 tanks. This is PvP. DPS does not need to apply.

[Agooz]

I've been reading the forums a lot since post 1.2.

 

First off, I have 3 50s on Sanctum of the Exalted, been in hundreds of matches, and have played as all 3 roles: Tank, Healer, and DPS. Before people start to think I'm 100% in the healers corner, I want you to know that I felt that healers were a bit overpowered to begin with. BH/Troops were a little too heat/ammo efficient, Sorcs could sometimes squeeze two of their best heals into a single proc, but in no way do I agree with their current state at all. They went from being very good to being useless and I'm tired of hearing complaining from people who have only ever been a DPS that the game is now "balanced". IT IS NOT! Contrary to popular belief the entire game (and pvp) is not JUST about you. There is a thing called diversity and it's a wonderful thing and one thing calls out very clearly by all of the posts by DPS that the game is now fair because they can go one on one with a healer is this: A) you have never been a healer, B) you don't know how to play well with others and C) you don't understand how each role is involved in PVP. Most of the healers who think "everything is fine nothing is ruined", how many of you roll with premades? How many of you solo queue with PUGS? There will always be a person who thinks no matter how broken a system is that its "working as intended" but for the vast majority of healers this is not the case.

 

DPS needs to understand this. If a DPS could take down a healer, then there would be NO POINT to a healer. Here is why. The only real difference between a sith sorc specced as healing and a sith sorc specced as dps is that the DPS has offensive as well as defensive potential. Any healer or dps can interrupt people from capping points, but only dmg can remove them from it. Let me make this point VERY clear: It is mechanically impossible for Healers to defeat other players by healing them to death This is a very important point I want DPS to understand. You cannot heal people to death in this game. So a DPS that does 50k dmg and a healer that heals 50k is NOT the same. Healers do not have offensive potential unless they combine it with dmg. And this goes back to the equal principle. People will reply with posts about how an amazing specced healer overpowered a dps and healed themselves all the dmg caused by the DPS and then killed the DPS. Guess what... THAT'S NOT EQUAL. That would be a healer doing 20k dmg AND 20k healing against a DPS doing just 20k damage. If healing is really just the opposite of dmg, it would be just as good to have more dps to kill your opponents faster, therefore not taking the dmg and just healing up when out of combat.

 

I'm really tired of seeing extremely biased and loaded scenarios. Frankly, Voidstar. I'm sorry, but Voidstar is not the end all be all of pvp. It's flat, theres almost no cover, and the objectives are focused around the door, so mass healing (and dmg) is easy to do with moderate conditions. Voidstar is the perfect storm for whatever you want to do. Hey guess what, I did 800k dmg on my Merc, big whoop. Show me an 800k dmg in Huttball, or Alderaan.... It's far harder to achieve. In fact potentially the only time you ever could put up huge numbers in those warfronts was BECAUSE of pre 1.2 healing. And I'm frankly appalled at how shameful and mathmatically incorrect some of the posters are. SWTOR only counts healing that actually heals a target. This is to prevent healers from just spamming heals on themselves at full health to get big numbers. So when you tell me "OMG this healer healed for 800k!! NERF!" you are only stating one thing, that youre DPS was 800k. You never heal for more dmg then the other team can inflict. (Or your own noble sacrifice, but that more of a work around and healers can still do it post 1.2). And to take the matter further, healers usually get LESS healing because when people are out of combat they heal themselves and make the healer lose the potential healing.

 

Of course people come back and say "yeah 1 healer did 800k healing and 5 of our dps did 800k dmg total. False Allow me to correct that statement. "You see one great healer against 5 dps who OBVIOUSLY don't know how to stun, interrupt, or do any significant damage." You want to cry to me about the resolve system how constant CCing is in a healers favor? Go refer to the thousands post long "resolve is broken" thread. Not to mention there are plenty of moves that don't add to resolve and stun you in place to allow dps to whomp on you, or one persons stun for 4 seconds to be stunned for another 4 seconds by another stun. Don't try to pawn off on me that 5 BM geared people cant take out 1 BM geared healer in 8 seconds because under the old rules all else being equal you had 15% more dmg and they had 15% dmg mitigation, so they cancelled themselves out. I'm sorry, but DPS cry wolf, loaded scenarios are just pathetic, show no real application any game mechanics and just show me how little dmg they did.

 

I find it laughable that DPS dare to say in 1.2 Work as team to protect the healer Dude. Let me tell you what every healer who reads that thinks. I have been in so many games where the healers are marked, MARKED WITH PRETTY LIGHTNING BOLTS AND CROSSHAIRS, and you know what DPS does? They don't go after them!! Wake up and realize that the problem pre patch WAS TEAMWORK and the fact that YOU DID NOT DO IT! I'm sorry, but you'll hear little sympathy from me when I see the marked healer spamming heal after heal and you have 4 dps attacking other dps. If people failed in teamwork prepatch when healers were OMG powerful, you honestly expect me to believe that the team is going to magically care when they become practically a liability? Keep dreaming.

 

And I want to make one other point. Just how badly healing has taken it between the legs. PVP Trauma buff?? Who in Bioware thought this was a good idea. Not only does expertise now favor HANDS DOWN DPS, but now healers do THIRTY PERCENT less healing with people recently in pvp. Imagine being a DPS and getting a debuff to do 30% less dmg. Of course DPS come back with "yeah 30% less healing and they still are doing great in pvp" False. I don't know if you've noticed among all your 5k crit medals and face roll laughing when healers try to heal your target and hes still dying, that healers are NOT doing good. Healers have to pop crit/power trinkets, stim themselves up and do their longest cast heal to TRY to get 5k healing. I read on the forums a DPS crying that his 8 man team went up against a team with 4 healers and broke even. And he had the audacity to say he felt cheated that they got a last minute door in Voidstar. Really... thats fair? And I'd love to see how healers are doing in the nightmare modes in pve with the way things are going.

 

Lastly I want to bring up a point that seemingly has been avoided by so many DPS on these forums. I want to share a hidden, deep, dark, secret that is blatent you have not heard. I'll tell you. No need to thank me. Its called GET A HEALER ON YOUR TEAM You say having 3 healers on one side is broken. THEN GET THREE HEALERS ON YOUR SIDE. Last time i checked they didn't have a rule against having too many healers in a warfront. Why is it the healers problem that because they have diversity on their team and you do not that healers need to be punished for it. "oh, but they queue together", then find healers to queue with. Or better yet make a healer yourself. Maybe then you'd have perspective on what it feels like to be not be protected, see people run through fire, stand in acid, LOS your heals, not stun, use abilities, or cap points. Then maybe you wouldn't show just how biased, selfish, and misinformed you really are.

 

Healers needed to be toned down, but what they got was their legs taken out from under them. I'm sorry, but I had more fun when I didn't spend half my time in the spawn area running back to the fight then being the healer that keeps the team in the action.

 

First of all it was torture reading all this nonsense, and very said that you "think" you know what pvp is, having played 3 different roles, and yet come here and write this BS.

 

It is very clear that you are speaking from the point of view of a "Healer" who for a long time on an OP ride, and now that it takes effort to actually play the role, you're whining about it.

 

50kdps does not equal 50k heal? you're right, the 50k Heals is BETTER. The difference between your logic and others who have common sense, is that we do not look at pvp in terms of 1v1, ESPECIALLY when it comes to a healer. The "average" dps still has a hard time with the "average" healer. You're making it seem that everyone is running in premades focusing dps on healers. Player skills being equal, a healer is STILL the most dangerous foe on the battlefield. NOTHING has changed.

[CaptainInsano]

Healers were fine pre 1.2. Certain melee classes actually could kill them 1v1 but it took time and strategy. I see nothing wrong with that. The issue was always healers PLUS tanks. A guarded healer receiving the benefit of taunts, not to mention peels and CC, was basically unkillable. Smart teams were stacking tanks and healers and turning matches into stall wars. I doubt that's the kind of exciting gameplay BW wanted to showcase, but that's how Ranked was looking to shape up.

 

So now everyone is squishier due to losing some HP and healing is a bit behind thanks to expertise. TTK is down for everyone. Tank plus healer is still powerful but a bit more manageable thanks to the power of burst, but solo healers are getting left in the dust from the changes. Now most DPS classes can solo a healer and healers rarely have time to do anything but heal themselves. The solution is to restore TTK to pre1.2 somehow (increase Endurance values on PvP gear as a start) and reduce tank+healer synergy. Easiest way would be to not allow the mitigation of Guard+Taunt to stack on an ally.

[StJohnLimbo]

The problem I see with SWTOR, and most other MMO's are the stat mechanics. Things like PVP only armor sets and weapons, PVP only stats such as expertise, and special PVP only computations made by the game's engine is what ruins PVP in the long run. An MMO MUST be developed from the ground up for PVP. This tried and not-so-true system of having two halves on the same game must end. The two halves being PVE and PVP. I've brainstormed on coming up with ideas to merge the two into one, but I don't do this for a living and I have other more important crap clogging my thoughts. I feel that we need a game mechanics revolution for MMOs. Certain things such as manually dodging attacks and having to aim the swing of your weapon to land a hit are a step in the right direction. Those are just a couple random ideas, and a lot more than that needs to be done .

 

It is an impossible task to balance two separate halves of one game, PVE and PVP. This is where developers get into trouble. They adjust individual classes, they add or modify specialized gameplay mechanics, one class now does more damage on average so we'll just apply a universal debuff while in PVP. Then at the same time we will further modify a certain stat that only applies to one half of the game. Over time it becomes more convoluted, the gaps widen, and there's no turning back. We need a merger. We need uniformity of gameplay mechanics. We need a 'choosen one' to turn current MMO design on its head.

[Jaxtaro]

Healers were fine pre 1.2. Certain melee classes actually could kill them 1v1 but it took time and strategy. I see nothing wrong with that. The issue was always healers PLUS tanks. A guarded healer receiving the benefit of taunts, not to mention peels and CC, was basically unkillable. Smart teams were stacking tanks and healers and turning matches into stall wars. I doubt that's the kind of exciting gameplay BW wanted to showcase, but that's how Ranked was looking to shape up.

 

So now everyone is squishier due to losing some HP and healing is a bit behind thanks to expertise. TTK is down for everyone. Tank plus healer is still powerful but a bit more manageable thanks to the power of burst, but solo healers are getting left in the dust from the changes. Now most DPS classes can solo a healer and healers rarely have time to do anything but heal themselves. The solution is to restore TTK to pre1.2 somehow (increase Endurance values on PvP gear as a start) and reduce tank+healer synergy. Easiest way would be to not allow the mitigation of Guard+Taunt to stack on an ally.

 

You act as though this is a problem.. this is the entirety of balance. You NEED to be able to be killed by a DPS type when not being protected by a tank. The entire point is to make tanks desirable and valued in a WZ environment as tanks.

 

Then answer isn't to turn tanks into more DPS types, reduce their effectiveness as tanks in pvp, and make healers immortal so that DPS can be emasculated like you prefer them. TTK is fine now if you have a balanced team (balanced isn't 6 DPS and 2 healer invulnerable yawnfests of no one dying like pre-1.2). WHat you need to do is get a couple of tanks, a couple of healers, and the rest DPS. This way everyone has similar opportunity.

 

The point here is that a healer is very effective with a tank, and very vulnerable without one. DPS isn't just a pea shooter who doesn't accomplish anything, nor should they be relegated to be.

[doppleprophet]

tl;dr

[ProfessorWalsh]

This post is full of win.

 

As A healer I know that unless DPS focus fires the other teams healer, they might as well be fighting with wet noddles. Even when I repeat it over and over again, "Focus fire ____" Rarely do I get people to cooperate.

 

And DPS, do you know how hard and stressful of a job healing is? Not only do you have to worry about yourself the enemy and the objectives, but you also have to worry about your ENTIRE team! As a healer you are responsible for the life of your team. When people die, they blame you, but when they live, they often don't notice. Heealing is one of the least popular classes to play, why? Because its more difficult.

 

BW decided to make it even harder to heal and makes the class even less popular. What's next? Tanks have less HP?

 

1. Healing is no more difficult than playing ranged DPS.

2. DPS classes were shafted pre 1.2 and were forced to have other DPS with them to do their role. Having more healers meant your team automatically won.

3. Tanks were useless in pre 1.2 because healers healing was better mitigation than tanks had.

 

Stop being so selfish and look how skewed things were in pre 1.2 in favor of healers.

[ProfessorWalsh]

Actually, healing was fine pre 1.2 I'm sorry you think you should be able to kill a healer 1v1, but it's not a 1v1 game. It's balanced around TEAM play. Maybe you need to spend less time crying and more time getting better

 

And for the record, it's bads like you who cry the most cause you can't be a 1v1 god against a healer.

 

...

 

Okay seriously... Look at this logically...

 

You say that it isn't a 1v1 game, but when we tell you to get a Tank to have survivability or to group up and heal with a second healer to overheal a single DPS class, you get angry at us and tell us it isn't fair.

 

Then you tell us, in order to do our role, we have to group up with another DPS and focus fire a target and/or be content with maybe hindering a healer.

 

Stop the double standard.

 

You are not supposed to be able to survive a DPS assault as a Healer without a Tank.

[Drayoc]

1. Healing is no more difficult than playing ranged DPS.

Stop being so selfish and look how skewed things were in pre 1.2 in favor of healers.

 

Have you ever even played as a healer in lvl 50 Warzones? Or Hard Mode or Nightmare Ops and Flashpoints? Ranged DPS does not have to monitor every single team mate in the party at the same time, all they have to do is target one person until they are dead.When A Ranged DPS makes a mistake it does not cost someone they're life. If a healer makes a mistake the person dies. If its in a HM Ops or FP then the entire team could wipe.

 

I agree with you that healing was slightly OP before the patch. But I think it was mostly the fact the DPS was under powered in WZ. Now its just ridiculous.

 

I'm not even going to address your other points because the first one was so ridiculous.

Edited April 24, 2012 by Drayoc

[ProfessorWalsh]

Have you ever even played as a healer in lvl 50 Warzones? Or Hard Mode or Nightmare Ops and Flashpoints? Ranged DPS does not have to monitor every single team mate in the party at the same time, all they have to do is target one person until they are dead.When A Ranged DPS makes a mistake it does not cost someone they're life. If a healer makes a mistake the person dies. If its in a HM Ops or FP then the entire team could wipe.

 

And here we have the issue. You think that Healers are the most important role, they have the hardest time, and are the most important class in any Hard Mode Ops or Flash Point.

 

Let me break this to you...

 

Every single class in the game is equally important.

 

In a HM if the DPS doesn't DPS well enough, aka makes a mistake, the Boss hits an enrage timer and the whole group wipes.

 

In a HM if the Tank doesn't taunt and hold aggro properly, the Boss kills the healer and the whole group wipes.

 

You think if DPS screws up then there is no repercussion? There is.

You think if a Tank screws up then there is no repercussion? There is.

 

On top of that, playing a healer is more or less playing ranged DPS. The only difference is that you are targeting your team instead of enemies. Instead of making health bars go down, you make health bars go up. How is it easier?

 

DPS doesn't get a nice little chart on the left hand side of their screen that constantly updates the health of all of their targets so they know who to hit. I have healed, and I have DPS'ed, and I did not find healing any harder than DPS'ing, in fact, to me, it was a little easier as it was a bit more consistent. About the only real difficulty there is in it comes from constantly changing targets.

 

I agree with you that healing was slightly OP before the patch. But I think it was mostly the fact the DPS was under powered in WZ. Now its just ridiculous.

 

I'm not even going to address your other points because the first one was so ridiculous.

 

I would hazard to say that you can't address them. The truth is they were all true. Every word of it. Healing is just DPS with a different class of target.