[PvE] Imbalanced DPS between DDs is laughable

[Xyleya]

Hello there. To begin with, I have all classes at LvL 50 and they're all Columi/Rakata equipped. I play a Merc, a Sniper, a Sorc and a Maro as DD in addition to my Assa-tank and Operative-Heal... yes I've got alot of time to play apparently

 

Now, that we can finally study the combat-logs all my previous calculations are backed up with hard evidence.

 

Given equal equipment it goes like this... Maro (Annihilation) 1800 DPS, Sorc (Madness) 1350 DPS, Sniper (Lethality) 1200 DPS, Merc (Arsenal) 1150 DPS. All tested fully buffed against the Boss-dummy.

 

I've tested hybrid-specs for the Sniper and Sorc, but there isn't much change and rotations are not as easy, so why not play it simple. The Merc deals a little more DPS in Pyrotech, but you run into heat-problems faster so it's not worth it either.

 

So, what should I say.... The Maro deal s the most damage, which is all nice and dandy given that it is a melee DD. What isn't right tho is, that the Sniper isn't in hte second place easily outdamaging the Sorc and the Merc.

Why you ask... well, the Sniper isn't a hybrid-class, doesn't have any healing-abilities etc... it's a pure DPS-class without any support-skills, just like the Marauder.

 

The Sniper should be somewhere at 1500 DPS currently to outmatch the hybrid-classes, or the Sorc and Merc should deal less damage then the current 1200 DPS of the Sniper. It's just not right the way it is currently.

 

Snipers need more sustained DPS and Sorcs should've a little less aswell as Marauders are way overtuned currently. The numbers should go... Maro 1600 DPS, Sniper 1400 DPS, Sorc/Merc 1200DPS.

Make the pure DPS-classes do the most damage and place them hybrid-classes way behind them, where they belong, due to their support-abilities allready being an advantage.

 

As we've now got all buffs in the raids without needing Agents or Bounty Hunters, we decided to simply go with only Inquisitors (1x Assa-tank, 2x Sorc-heal, 2x Sorc-DD) and Warriors (1x Jugg-offtank, 2x Maro), as this setup has the most DPS and the best group-heal, even if we don't have the 20% armor-debuff from the Sniper. Mercs aren't needed anyways from now on, as their armor-debuff only counts for themselves since the most recent patch.

 

So yeah... fix this imbalance.

[trevah]

Just a heads up, people are going to ask for screenshots for evidence. Just wanted to let you know before the trolls start.

 

Also, just as a heads up, the lack of dodge/deflect on dummies give maras a huge advantage as their OH weapon will always hit. Which will compensate for some of this skew. Not 2-600DPS, but some.

Edited April 20, 2012 by trevah

[SamuraBob_Fl]

I'm somewhat skeptical about this, given my Tionese geared arsenal merc has homing missile crits of 5k. I don't have a parser, but I'm pretty sure I'm doing more then 1k dps. There may be a problem with your rotation, or you may simply not be reacting to procs quickly enough.

[savagedialects]

but what if i want to dps as an assassin. I do less damage just because I'm an assassin?

 

No.

[Aethyriel]

Marauder will outdmg anyone on the boss dummies because they are bugged and you can't miss. Marauders benefit the most here because all their skills have the additional dmg from the offhand which you wouldn't get that often due to the high chance to miss that it has. Normally you couldn't push accuracy nowehre near that level, not even when sacrificing tons of way better dmg stats.

 

Also, posting random numbers without insight in what you've exactly done rotation wise or what your actual gear and spec look like is just plain stupid, sry, but if you have all that data from all your funny little tests why didn't you come up with the grand idea of posting the data? You probably don't even know the bug or know about it but simply went on to ignore it in order to prove your point with false data. Only thing that's laughable in this threat is you.

 

Edit: Read the rest of your hilarious post and your oppinion on where DPS classes should stand and socalled "hybrids" There is no such thing. An Arsenal merc for example will not heal anyone effectively besides Soa when you jump down platforms, in any other situation this is almost guaranteed to get you absolutely nothing but overheating and doing less DPS to it without providing anything useful at all. Melee will always do more dmg or at least should do more dmg then ranged on stationary targets due to increased movement in bossfights. bioware decided to put almost all the stress on melee in encounters (for DPS, not counting healers).

 

You type in "support" like you are talking about WoW-shamans, no class in this game has real groundbreaking support beyond classbuffs (that in a raid with an altoholic can all be provided by a single person) except Bloodthirst by marauders and armor debuffs by Ars. mercs + Snipers. What support are you talking about? Some weak shields by Madnesssorcs? Knockbacks, Pulls, Stuns etc, all of that is not needed 99% of the time in current and probably future raid content.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Aethyriel

[Khaliras]

Also the arguement that the so called "pure" dps classes should do more damage than those that have the option to spec for tanking/healing has been had ever since the game that shall not be named came out, and was pretty much in the end colcluded to be full of sheit. No matter what your options are, you should do equal damage if you are specced for it, since that is all that matters in the min/max world of raiding/opsing, and because you don't have the option to switch mid-fight, so the option is useless except for staving of boredom.

[Demwarala]

Hello there. To begin with, I have all classes at LvL 50 and they're all Columi/Rakata equipped. I play a Merc, a Sniper, a Sorc and a Maro as DD in addition to my Assa-tank and Operative-Heal... yes I've got alot of time to play apparently

 

Now, that we can finally study the combat-logs all my previous calculations are backed up with hard evidence.

 

Given equal equipment it goes like this... Maro (Annihilation) 1800 DPS, Sorc (Madness) 1350 DPS, Sniper (Lethality) 1200 DPS, Merc (Arsenal) 1150 DPS. All tested fully buffed against the Boss-dummy.

 

I've tested hybrid-specs for the Sniper and Sorc, but there isn't much change and rotations are not as easy, so why not play it simple. The Merc deals a little more DPS in Pyrotech, but you run into heat-problems faster so it's not worth it either.

 

So, what should I say.... The Maro deal s the most damage, which is all nice and dandy given that it is a melee DD. What isn't right tho is, that the Sniper isn't in hte second place easily outdamaging the Sorc and the Merc.

Why you ask... well, the Sniper isn't a hybrid-class, doesn't have any healing-abilities etc... it's a pure DPS-class without any support-skills, just like the Marauder.

 

The Sniper should be somewhere at 1500 DPS currently to outmatch the hybrid-classes, or the Sorc and Merc should deal less damage then the current 1200 DPS of the Sniper. It's just not right the way it is currently.

 

Snipers need more sustained DPS and Sorcs should've a little less aswell as Marauders are way overtuned currently. The numbers should go... Maro 1600 DPS, Sniper 1400 DPS, Sorc/Merc 1200DPS.

Make the pure DPS-classes do the most damage and place them hybrid-classes way behind them, where they belong, due to their support-abilities allready being an advantage.

 

As we've now got all buffs in the raids without needing Agents or Bounty Hunters, we decided to simply go with only Inquisitors (1x Assa-tank, 2x Sorc-heal, 2x Sorc-DD) and Warriors (1x Jugg-offtank, 2x Maro), as this setup has the most DPS and the best group-heal, even if we don't have the 20% armor-debuff from the Sniper. Mercs aren't needed anyways from now on, as their armor-debuff only counts for themselves since the most recent patch.

 

So yeah... fix this imbalance.

 

luls, did you try pt dd? at equal gear and player skil level, they are on par with maras, if not slight ahead in our raid at ec hm they're pulling most dps. just give it a shot

[Teioh_White]

I could agree with that, my Pyro was normally outdamaging the Mara in EC the other night if I was making sure to play it non lazy, and he's get a good bit less gear than the Mara too.

 

That same Mara also completely destroyed my better geared Veng Jugg dps though.

[demonskies]

You type in "support" like you are talking about WoW-shamans, no class in this game has real groundbreaking support beyond classbuffs (that in a raid with an altoholic can all be provided by a single person) except Bloodthirst by marauders and armor debuffs by Ars. mercs + Snipers. What support are you talking about? Some weak shields by Madnesssorcs? Knockbacks, Pulls, Stuns etc, all of that is not needed 99% of the time in current and probably future raid content.

 

A wow shaman hasnt really been a "support" class in a long time. Sadly there really hasn't been any support classes since the old days with classes like bards, mezzers, and the oddball hybrid support/dps like a necro.

 

To the OP unless you give us gear, spec, and pics/links to parse your point is pretty invalid.

[Tigalo]

I'm somewhat skeptical about this, given my Tionese geared arsenal merc has homing missile crits of 5k. I don't have a parser, but I'm pretty sure I'm doing more then 1k dps. There may be a problem with your rotation, or you may simply not be reacting to procs quickly enough.

 

When you dont even get the name of the ability correct, it is hard to believe you.

[Xyleya]

I don't need to link any specs or combat-logs. Everyone can try the mentioned classes himself with the cookie-cutter-setups and see for himself that my given numbers are valid.

For rotations and all the specs etc, you can go read the several forums to find out what cookie-cutter-setups are being used.

 

Additionally, it's only those of you who are requesting numbers, who don't play all them classes themselves and to those of you I'm not even talking as you can't compare them yourself. You just like to ramble and I'm not responding to that.

[kiwoo]

Also the arguement that the so called "pure" dps classes should do more damage than those that have the option to spec for tanking/healing has been had ever since the game that shall not be named came out, and was pretty much in the end colcluded to be full of sheit. No matter what your options are, you should do equal damage if you are specced for it, since that is all that matters in the min/max world of raiding/opsing, and because you don't have the option to switch mid-fight, so the option is useless except for staving of boredom.

 

If ACs that can heal for example are able to push out the same damage as a pure damage class. Why bother with damage classes?

 

Take Sage and gunslingers for example. If a Sage can do as much damage as a Gunslinger. Why take a Gunslinger over a Sage when the Sage has the utility for an extra shield and emergency heals plus cleanse?

 

Thats why pure DPS classes Need to be able out damage DPS specced healers/tanks.

 

Sage has DPS+heals.

Gunslinger has DPS only.

Edited April 20, 2012 by kiwoo

[trevah]

I don't need to link any specs or combat-logs. Everyone can try the mentioned classes himself with the cookie-cutter-setups and see for himself that my given numbers are valid.

For rotations and all the specs etc, you can go read the several forums to find out what cookie-cutter-setups are being used.

 

Additionally, it's only those of you who are requesting numbers, who don't play all them classes themselves and to those of you I'm not even talking as you can't compare them yourself. You just like to ramble and I'm not responding to that.

 

Welcome to the internet...where NO ONE BELIEVES YOU.

 

Don't come on here touting claims of game-breaking DPS-imbalance and then refusing to post hard evidence. You're feeding the trolls and they're already overfed. Stop or support your arguments.

Edited April 21, 2012 by trevah

[Darthlemi]

I don't need to link any specs or combat-logs. Everyone can try the mentioned classes himself with the cookie-cutter-setups and see for himself that my given numbers are valid.

For rotations and all the specs etc, you can go read the several forums to find out what cookie-cutter-setups are being used.

 

Additionally, it's only those of you who are requesting numbers, who don't play all them classes themselves and to those of you I'm not even talking as you can't compare them yourself. You just like to ramble and I'm not responding to that.

 

:wea_02::wea_02::wea_02::wea_02: You are full of tautaun excrement!

[TheOpf]

Your numbers are really skewed. In a raid the other night the AP PT was sitting at 1500, and the Mara was pushing 1500, and everyone else was between 1200 and 1500 depending on deaths, rotations, gear, and genuine uptime on the target.

 

 

Currently from every number I have seen from regular raiders, the top two dps is Powertech and Marauders, than come the Sorcs, Mercs, and Juggernaughts, finally coming the Assassins, Snipers, and Operatives. Everyone is within 100 dps of the guy right ahead of them in some fights I have seen the MM sniper hitting close to 1400. It's not within 5 percent as BW says, but it's not 1150 to 1800. I have yet to see anyone hit 1800 in a raid. I don't raid often, I stick mainly to pvp, but my guild and the guys I group with raid regularly, and they share data with me.

 

If your merc is only hitting 1150 than he is an awful pve player or his gear is complete crap, and/or he is doing something besides sticking to his rotation. I mean I can hit 1150 as an AP pt in pvp gear without a sweat.

Edited April 20, 2012 by TheOpf

[Demwarala]

Your numbers are really skewed. In a raid the other night the AP PT was sitting at 1500, and the Mara was pushing 1500, and everyone else was between 1200 and 1500 depending on deaths, rotations, gear, and genuine uptime on the target.

 

 

Currently from every number I have seen from regular raiders, the top two dps is Powertech and Marauders, than come the Sorcs, Mercs, and Juggernaughts, finally coming the Assassins, Snipers, and Operatives. Everyone is within 100 dps of the guy right ahead of them in some fights I have seen the MM sniper hitting close to 1400. It's not within 5 percent as BW says, but it's not 1150 to 1800. I have yet to see anyone hit 1800 in a raid. I don't raid often, I stick mainly to pvp, but my guild and the guys I group with raid regularly, and they share data with me.

 

If your merc is only hitting 1150 than he is an awful pve player or his gear is complete crap, and/or he is doing something besides sticking to his rotation. I mean I can hit 1150 as an AP pt in pvp gear without a sweat.

 

thats pretty the same situation i see at our raids, depending on uptime at the target for melees and if the rangeclasses don't messup their rotation, all of them are almost around the same dps ... not. because maras and pt dds are way ahead. dunno whats the mechanic of the pt dmg, but he's by far to strong for now and if the mara gets the same heal like the tanks get ... few, 100% uptime at the boss and even more dps is possible.

[TheOpf]

because maras and pt dds are way ahead. dunno whats the mechanic of the pt dmg, but he's by far to strong for now and if the mara gets the same heal like the tanks get ... few, 100% uptime at the boss and even more dps is possible.

 

PT's damage really depends on which spec. However, the PT mechanics are a little different than most classes. They run heavy burst so they typically do 70 percent of their damage in a span of 6 seconds and then do average to just below average dps for the next 9 seconds, and then do their burst again.

 

For AP specs, their burst can hit close to 12k within that time if they get crits. PFT + Immolate + RP = 6 seconds of serious burst.

 

For Pyro it's the TD/RS/RP/RS burst that crushes things. With crits they can hit pretty close to 12k in damage in 6 seconds.

[Xyleya]

There's so much fail in reading comprehension in here....

 

Again. I play all the mentioned classes (Sniper, Sorc, Merc, Maro, Assa, Operative). I compare the damage between my characters, which are all Columi/Rakata equipped. I've thrown out any speed or unnecessary accuracy and all my DPS-chars (Maro, Sorc, Merc, Sniper) have 98% Accuracy (bar the Sorc, that doesn't need any accuracy) 30-35% Crit, 75-77% Surge and 800-820 bonus damage.

 

Specced as follows... Sorc = Madness, Sniper = Lethality, Maro = Annihilation, and Merc = Arsenal with the according rotations used.

 

Now, as I play all these chars myself, comparing all of them with my skills and the same equipment-level and stats, there's nothing to discuss really. The numbers speak for themselves, tested on the boss dummy.

 

Please start leveling all these classes yourself and play them before you start ************ about my thread, because those of you who don't play all the classes don't have anything of value to say imho.

[Xyleya]

Did you notice the little [PvE]? I'm not doing any PvP at all, so stop QQing maybe yourself.

 

Posting logs isn't necessary, you just have to do a 5 minute fight against the boss dummy yourself with all the classes. Raid-numbers don't count due to buffs and debuffs from other players etc. In a raid I do more damage with a Sniper or Merc and less with a Maro, that's not what I'm talking about tho.

[gunte]

Did you notice the little [PvE]? I'm not doing any PvP at all, so stop QQing maybe yourself.

 

Posting logs isn't necessary, you just have to do a 5 minute fight against the boss dummy yourself with all the classes. Raid-numbers don't count due to buffs and debuffs from other players etc. In a raid I do more damage with a Sniper or Merc and less with a Maro, that's not what I'm talking about tho.

 

Everyone doesnt have all classes in the same gear. Either post your logs or stop writing. Also the fact that you continously refuse to post the logs is just lol.

[Tyrias]

While you might take this as slanderous insult, it is worth noting that any of the people that I know who play multiple different classes vary in skill greatly between those classes, despite being the same player behind the character. However good the OP may believe themself to be, the chances are that differing skill levels will have as much of an impact on your results than anything else.

 

Also, I'd have to disagree that Pure DPS classes should have more DPS than classes with more than one potential role. If I, as a Sage, spec for max DPS, most of my support abilities suffer. It would cost me over 10% of my max force pool just to throw on a shield if I'm not specced for it (based on the assumption that I wouldn't have the extra 50 for the Force-Mystic set bonus).

 

If it were the case that Pure DPS classes were better than the rest, why would you take anyone who ISN'T a pure DPS to do the damage dealing? In an 8-man raid you'd have 3 AC's fighting over 2 healing spots, 3 AC's fighting over two tank spots, and the remaind 4 spots being given to only 2 AC's. That makes even less sense than Pure DPS AC's having limited role options.

[Lovia]

Every dps spec should bring the same exact damage dealing capability to the table, including every dps spec from every class that can fill additional roles, the difference should be that they bring different utility into the table from crowd control to emergency tanking to emergency healing and group buffs and debuffs.

 

I consider everything else unaccaptable in modern mmos like swtor mostly due to the fact that it would lead on optimal operation setups and some advanced classes and/or specs not making the cut for operation spots.

For example why bring a dps pyrotech/vanguard when you can bring an aditional marauder/sentinel? Or why bring a sniper when you can bring a commando?

 

Also the content is doable with every setup within logical bounds isnt an acceptable answer to a scenario where dps, raw healing and mitigation is different between classes. People will pick the easiest path and why wouldnt they? why waste time grouping with gimped ppl and risk to waste your time on wipes when you can just rush in with an optimal setup and beat the content easily?

 

>>TL:DR All damage dealing specs from all advanved classes should do the same dps, period.

 

On a pvp perspective things are very different because personal survivability does play a critical role as do a number of utility options and other tools (cc, stealth, range, burst, healing reduction etc) balancing pvp in a game where pve is balanced and competitive is art if not impossible.

[Macroecon]

Also, just as a heads up, the lack of dodge/deflect on dummies give maras a huge advantage as their OH weapon will always hit. Which will compensate for some of this skew. Not 2-600DPS, but some.

 

Actually for Mara/Sent the target dummies will systematically underestimate their dps. That's because the dummies don't attack back and thus can't trigger the Mara's Retaliate ability. That's easily worth 100 dps or so that a competent Mara can accomplish in the field.

[Xyleya]

Every dps spec should bring the same exact damage dealing capability to the table, including every dps spec from every class that can fill additional roles, the difference should be that they bring different utility into the table from crowd control to emergency tanking to emergency healing and group buffs and debuffs.

 

I consider everything else unaccaptable in modern mmos like swtor mostly due to the fact that it would lead on optimal operation setups and some advanced classes and/or specs not making the cut for operation spots.

For example why bring a dps pyrotech/vanguard when you can bring an aditional marauder/sentinel? Or why bring a sniper when you can bring a commando?

 

Also the content is doable with every setup within logical bounds isnt an acceptable answer to a scenario where dps, raw healing and mitigation is different between classes. People will pick the easiest path and why wouldnt they? why waste time grouping with gimped ppl and risk to waste your time on wipes when you can just rush in with an optimal setup and beat the content easily?

 

>>TL:DR All damage dealing specs from all advanved classes should do the same dps, period.

 

On a pvp perspective things are very different because personal survivability does play a critical role as do a number of utility options and other tools (cc, stealth, range, burst, healing reduction etc) balancing pvp in a game where pve is balanced and competitive is art if not impossible.

 

Thank you for the first good response.

 

To the others. Damage-logs and all that stuff don't show anything actually, as they don't show your rotations or how good you do your rotations, that's why I'm not posting any and simply compare the raw damage-numbers.

 

If you want, you can use a calculator and calculate the optimal DPS for the classes and then you'll end up with pretty much the same numbers I've posted +-10%. Even before the damage-logs I've used tools to calculate damage and they're allmost 100% accurate to the now available damage-logs.

 

So, we're not talking player-skills etc here, but raw numbers and they simply are totally screwed up between the classes.

Like the person above stated, then every DD should do the same amount, with a little more DPS for the melees ofc, but not 30+%.

[Wallach]

To the others. Damage-logs and all that stuff don't show anything actually, as they don't show your rotations or how good you do your rotations, that's why I'm not posting any and simply compare the raw damage-numbers.

 

Damage logs are the raw damage numbers. There are literally zero situations where truly accurate data can be generated without a player at the keyboard in-game. We use these real results to try and generate theoretical numbers, not the other way around. Don't insult the efforts of other people that actually put in work towards theorycrafting by replacing effort with rhetoric then pretending your claims carry any weight.