Seeing a lot of Pyro Powertech stacking lately…

[drahzaar]

Basically what happens to my scoundrel in wz's these days is I try and cap something, a couple marauders jump to me and I get rooted for a while, then I start getting grappled a few times until if I'm still alive I'm a mile from where I want to be

[exphryl]

Yeah, there's still RNG in it, but it's a whole lot more predictable than it was before.

You can't predict RNG. You can HOPE for a Proc, but that's about it. Even with the improved %'s on Rocket Punch and Flame Burst you can still be starved for a proc for 15 secs...

 

The only "Planning" Is saving Rocket Punch when the ICD over so you have a higher chance of getting it, but than, it's not 100% so you'll still fail a lot.

 

Before, you couldn't plan for it hardly at all…sometimes you'd get a bunch of procs back to back, and other times you'd hit dry spells and be terribly ineffective.

 

Heavy armor offers better passive mitigation than pretty much all of the legit burst specs. And being able to operate largely from range (at the very least with a lot of range flexibility) benefits their overall survivability in a huge way compared to the melee burst specs. Their defensive cooldowns, Energy Shield and Kolto Overload, are actually pretty good compared to most other burst specs except for Marauders. For example, they are much better than a dps Assassin's defensive cooldowns, the primary of which only affects white damage only and the other only lasts 3 seconds…and they wear light armor and have to operate in melee.

 

That 2.5K Health over 10 Secs every 3 Minutes is game breaking I agree. I would also trade either of those for Force Shroud in a heart beat (since you mentioned DPS Assassin's). They also have Sprint to get out of combat (e.g make distance, or use as a gap closer on a shorter cooldown compared to grapple) and Vanish, as well as stealth to get up to their target.Your comparison is highly flawed.

 

The truth is, PPT's are arguably the second most survivable and upkeepable burst dps spec in the game, right behind Marauders.

 

Highest Burst or Near Highest i'd say for sure, second most survivable? Far from it. Unless you are a fresh 50 in non-recruit gear that Pyro will die quick if focused. Granted 1 v 1 our survivability is killing the other player but the game isn't built around 1v1.

Edited April 20, 2012 by exphryl

[Boarg]

Kolto Overload healing is marginal at best. Powertech cc consists of the stun the almost all classes get and a 2.5 sec stun that you have to be in melee range to use. Also, what knockback?

 

I was just listing things that classes have in general that fit into overall survivability. Pyro Powertechs are pretty good or competant in most of those areas.

[Sookster]

I never seen more than one PT/VG in a WZ. Also with a class that's healing capable, I cleanse their fire as soon as I see it, no fire = no big fat damage, however sometimes fire gets reapplied almost immediately after cleansing and cleanse is usually on a 5 second cooldown, if that happens you gotta LOS and CC them and get out of range since they're melee range.

 

My PT is shieldtech, I feel naked without jet charge as PT because you need to be in melee range to do big damage and without jet charge, kiters are going to make it hard for you and not even the 45s(35s) grapple is reliable enough as I usually save that for ball carriers or door humpers in Voidstar or splitting tanks from guarded target.

 

Pyro PT's survivability is subpar compared to other classes, they're squishy. I rarely ever use kolto overload, it isn't that great, my operative's stim boost heal (spec'd in concealment) heals much better.

 

So no I have yet to see a team with more than one PT/VG.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Sookster

[Boarg]

You can't predict RNG. You can HOPE for a Proc, but that's about it. Even with the improved %'s on Rocket Punch and Flame Burst you can still be starved for a proc for 15 secs...

 

The only "Planning" Is saving Rocket Punch when the ICD over so you have a higher chance of getting it, but than, it's not 100% so you'll still fail a lot.

 

That 2.5K Health over 10 Secs every 3 Minutes is game breaking I agree. I would also trade either of those for Force Shroud in a heart beat (since you mentioned DPS Assassin's). They also have Sprint to get out of combat (e.g make distance, or use as a gap closer on a shorter cooldown compared to grapple) and Vanish, as well as stealth to get up to their target.Your comparison is highly flawed.

 

Highest Burst or Near Highest i'd say for sure, second most survivable? Far from it. Unless you are a fresh 50 in non-recruit gear that Pyro will die quick if focused. Granted 1 v 1 our survivability is killing the other player but the game isn't built around 1v1.

 

Well, what would you rather play with? The old proc rates or the new proc rates with ICD? Personally, I'd rather play with the new one.

 

Kolto Overload is far from strong, but it's not worthless. I'd be remiss to neglect it completely. Energy Shield on the other hand, I wouldn't be so quick to knock. 25% reduction to all damage is quite good, and lasts 12 seconds...and effective CD can be significantly reduced with Energy Rebounder. Very brief immunity (3s) to Force/Tech doesn't blow it out of the water and is more easily countered by good players who see a glowing character and save their Force/Tech abilities for a couple seconds and use weapon attacks instead.

 

Although, accusing the comparison with dps spec Assassins of being flawed as if the end conclusion that Powertechs aren't more survivable overall is laughable. Dps spec Assassins are widely regarded as the squishest PvP specs in the game, bar none. Running around in melee with light armor and no good long duration defensive CD is pretty much a joke to a lot of people, which is why the tank spec is so popular for PvP.

 

If you think they aren't second best, name the burst specs other than marauders (who are the best) that you think are more survivable.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Boarg

[KBSIP]

The PT squishiness does not depend on their armor.

 

Pyro Powertechs are the LEAST MOBILE CLASS IN THE GAME. no stealth mechanic, no speed boost, one gap closer that is mitigated by resolve, and one short duration ranged CC. We also cannot function at max range which seems to be the opinion of some of the idiots here. Pyro PT is optimal at medium range, ~ 8 meters, for flame burst, closing to melee range for rocket punch procs. Inc Missile is a waste of heat for the most part as you should be using your grapple to draw off enemy healers and relying on flame burst to lay out your DoT. our PPA was already nerfed, so the only way we get 2 consecutive railshots is on our very first initial burst, or if someone is dumb enough to leave us unengaged for a good 5-10 seconds.

 

Any class with high mobility can effectively avoid us. kiting us is not an option unless you have a heavy ranged ability repertoire, as our rapid shots can burn you down if you don't fight back.

 

You should never, ever, ever engage a pyro PT in melee 1v1 unless you have a deathwish, as a good player will give any class; including sins and shadows, a very thorough run for their money. If you're 1v1ing you're both making a mistake and not playing the WZ right.

[anticept]

A lot of the groups I've been running into the last few days have been running more and more Pyro Powertechs. One particular premade had FOUR of them, and clearly by design.

 

It was also pretty obvious that they are even more effective in quantity than they are alone. 4 Rail Shots drop someone pretty much as soon as they get to a fight, and you can't lockdown and control all of them.

 

Anyone else running into this?

 

Yeh heard that packs of vicious stray dogs are patrolling the streets of continental US cities.

[Krytycal]

Pyrotechs are indeed the scariest DPS AC out there. People complain about marauders, but pyros are actually more dangerous than marauders. They are also more fragile than marauders, so it all balances out. Edited April 20, 2012 by Krytycal

[Tremont]

I have a PT and so do two of my Guildmates. We use vent and target one person and burn them down, then move to the next. "Target of Target" makes this easy to do and its very effective.

 

I have also seen a group of 5 Sorc Extricate each other across the Huttball Field to the inzone, also very effective.

[Boarg]

The PT squishiness does not depend on their armor.

 

Pyro Powertechs are the LEAST MOBILE CLASS IN THE GAME. no stealth mechanic, no speed boost, one gap closer that is mitigated by resolve, and one short duration ranged CC. We also cannot function at max range which seems to be the opinion of some of the idiots here. Pyro PT is optimal at medium range, ~ 8 meters, for flame burst, closing to melee range for rocket punch procs. Inc Missile is a waste of heat for the most part as you should be using your grapple to draw off enemy healers and relying on flame burst to lay out your DoT. our PPA was already nerfed, so the only way we get 2 consecutive railshots is on our very first initial burst, or if someone is dumb enough to leave us unengaged for a good 5-10 seconds.

 

Any class with high mobility can effectively avoid us. kiting us is not an option unless you have a heavy ranged ability repertoire, as our rapid shots can burn you down if you don't fight back.

 

You should never, ever, ever engage a pyro PT in melee 1v1 unless you have a deathwish, as a good player will give any class; including sins and shadows, a very thorough run for their money. If you're 1v1ing you're both making a mistake and not playing the WZ right.

 

Least mobile, yeah mobility is low in a lot of senses. That can be deceptive, though, especially in a survivability sense. That's why I keep saying things like "range and position flexibility."

 

Most classes have very little option or control over where they can play from.

 

For example, Snipers (they probably put an arrow in the knee of the "Pyro PT least mobile class" idea) pretty much have no choice but to operate from range and from cover in order to put themselves in a winning position. They don't have much in the way of options, and if someone takes that away from them they are forced to continually work to get it back or end up giving sub-par performance. Sorcs, while not using cover, are in a similar situation because of all the channeled and casted abilities they need to use to be most effective.

 

You also have all the melee classes. They pretty much have no choice but to operate in melee or else they can't do much of anything and bring little value to their team. If someone takes melee range away from them, they have to work continually to get it back.

 

So, some of these classes/specs have good tools to help them achieve and maintain their requisite positioning, including mobility tools in some cases.

 

Pyro PT's are a different animal. They can operate with different positions and movements depending on opponent and situation in order to maintain advantage and even let it cycle throughout an encounter. For example, they can try to work from close range where they have advantage against a Sniper or Sorc, but it's also not necessary to keep it close the whole time - just be close at the right times. And against melee, they can operate from range at the times they don't need to be in melee to substantially reduce incoming damage and let the melee close in when it's time to use short range abilities. Even without doing that, you mention yourself how strong they are in melee anyway. Pyro's have one of the better snares in game, 50% easily refreshed and attached to damage ability that also sets up other things they do. Grapple and the short stuns help a lot, too.

 

So, in terms of trying to run a huttball across a map…yeah, their mobility is pretty lame. Same for serious kiting or chasing, but they don't need to do serious kiting or chasing like other classes. For what they need to do they are well equipped, though…and a skilled Pyro PT player can simply avoid a lot of damage and continue to be functional from lots of positions that the other classes can't do. In that sense, they are actually very mobile because they have options on where to go that others don't.

 

It's kinda weird because to seem to get it and say so in some places (and I'm sure you do,) and then say contradictory things in others. Like, anyone with high mobility can avoid you…but then follow that with saying kiting you is not an option (which is correct in most cases). And then also point out how dangerous it is to engage a Pyro PT in melee if they are attacking you.

[EclipseWraith]

Least mobile, yeah mobility is low in a lot of senses. That can be deceptive, though, especially in a survivability sense. That's why I keep saying things like "range and position flexibility."

 

Most classes have very little option or control over where they can play from.

 

For example, Snipers (they probably put an arrow in the knee of the "Pyro PT least mobile class" idea) pretty much have no choice but to operate from range and from cover in order to put themselves in a winning position. They don't have much in the way of options, and if someone takes that away from them they are forced to continually work to get it back or end up giving sub-par performance. Sorcs, while not using cover, are in a similar situation because of all the channeled and casted abilities they need to use to be most effective.

 

You also have all the melee classes. They pretty much have no choice but to operate in melee or else they can't do much of anything and bring little value to their team. If someone takes melee range away from them, they have to work continually to get it back.

 

So, some of these classes/specs have good tools to help them achieve and maintain their requisite positioning, including mobility tools in some cases.

 

Pyro PT's are a different animal. They can operate with different positions and movements depending on opponent and situation in order to maintain advantage and even let it cycle throughout an encounter. For example, they can try to work from close range where they have advantage against a Sniper or Sorc, but it's also not necessary to keep it close the whole time - just be close at the right times. And against melee, they can operate from range at the times they don't need to be in melee to substantially reduce incoming damage and let the melee close in when it's time to use short range abilities. Even without doing that, you mention yourself how strong they are in melee anyway. Pyro's have one of the better snares in game, 50% easily refreshed and attached to damage ability that also sets up other things they do. Grapple and the short stuns help a lot, too.

 

So, in terms of trying to run a huttball across a map…yeah, their mobility is pretty lame. Same for serious kiting or chasing, but they don't need to do serious kiting or chasing like other classes. For what they need to do they are well equipped, though…and a skilled Pyro PT player can simply avoid a lot of damage and continue to be functional from lots of positions that the other classes can't do. In that sense, they are actually very mobile because they have options on where to go that others don't.

 

It's kinda weird because to seem to get it and say so in some places (and I'm sure you do,) and then say contradictory things in others. Like, anyone with high mobility can avoid you…but then follow that with saying kiting you is not an option (which is correct in most cases). And then also point out how dangerous it is to engage a Pyro PT in melee if they are attacking you.

 

very good post! hits the OPness of PTs on point

[Boarg]

very good post! hits the OPness of PTs on point

 

Well, I don't know about "OP", but it is certainly one of the core features of the class.

 

Unfortunately, it's something a lot of people don't realize or neglect to think about and just think of everything as simple melee/ranged. A lot of people who think the spec too squishy when playing it probably haven't learned how to move around effectively yet...see so many just standing in one spot like a turret most of the time and let everyone else do the moving.

[rativiv]

powertechs are far from overpowered.. sure, they are strong, but so are alot of classes.

[Vaipyr]

Seeing a lot of Pyro Powertech stacking lately…

 

So NERF AMIRITE?! NERF IT ALL! NERF EVERYTHING! FOAMING RAVING LUNACY NERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRF!!!!!!!!

[Slashtwo]

Pre patch no one says anything about vanguards/pt's.

 

They take a major nerf in patch and now the OP cries are coming. Crazy.

 

I have a pyro pt, I dont enjoy playing it because it's a fun or challenging class because it's neither. I play it occasionally because it's a complete faceroll class, and I've been saying this about 2months after the game went live.

 

The class is completely broken, Bioware added more burst to the most bursty class.

When stacked in 2's with teamspeak This class will global almost anyone.

When stacked in 3's which my guild does occasionally, we **** their entire team?

 

Thing is only one person needs to use flameburst on the called out focus target, the other 2 can skip the gobals on flamburst and straight railshot and never really generate heat, because of the 100% flamburst combustable gas talent. While we do that we stack thermal dets on a different target..

[Slashtwo]

You can try to deny this all you want but pyro pt is the best class dps class in the game atm.

[krazi]

Basically, you need more nerfs to enjoy the game? Lol, they've already smacked Pyro Powertechs hard, leave em alone. Besides 4 classes of anything would kill someone within seconds for example a group of operatives. Fun? Edited April 22, 2012 by krazi

[exphryl]

I have a pyro pt, I dont enjoy playing it because it's a fun or challenging class because it's neither. I play it occasionally because it's a complete faceroll class, and I've been saying this about 2months after the game went live.

 

The class is completely broken, Bioware added more burst to the most bursty class.

When stacked in 2's with teamspeak This class will global almost anyone.

When stacked in 3's which my guild does occasionally, we **** their entire team?

 

Thing is only one person needs to use flameburst on the called out focus target, the other 2 can skip the gobals on flamburst and straight railshot and never really generate heat, because of the 100% flamburst combustable gas talent. While we do that we stack thermal dets on a different target..

 

So what you are saying is, a DPS class, 3 of them, using voice comms, to target another player, makes that player die fast.

 

Got it.

Edited April 22, 2012 by exphryl

[KrackenOne]

Your server has 4 Pyro Powertechs that actually are logged in at the same time?

 

Impressive in itself...

 

Was thinking the same.

[Theology]

Seeing a ton of Pyrotech QQ threads lately.

 

You know why people are dusting off their Powertechs this patch?

 

Because PVP in this game is a joke and it's turned into a DPS zergfest.

 

Powertechs are the best burst DPS class. We also die insanely fast.

[maticlandarr]

Vangaurd/PT has great "mitigation" no matter the spec. Its called kiting. I can survive way longer on my vanguard than on my guardian just due to my ranged capabilities. Thank you for this thread btw. OP just got me excited to go home and play vanguard again.

[gwrtheyn]

How fast would 4 ravages, 4 force lightning channels, 4 tracer missiles, or 4 ambushes kill a single target?

 

 

4 ravages+4 ambushes VS 4 force lightning channels+4 tracer missiles Team combat ROUND1

the winner can go VS 4 RAIL+4 Annihilate

Edited April 22, 2012 by gwrtheyn

[Hawaiianlion]

I leveled my my bh healer with a pyrotech buddy through wzs, we knew something was wrong when he was putting up 600k damage voidstars at level 30, now at level 50 600k is the norm for him no matter the map. Against balanced healer games he tops out at 900k. When we stack 2 in a premade ive seen them both put up 700k in a wz, no other class can hang with that, yes maras are easier to heal but a mara has to get up in the ****, he cant grip a healer off a pillar and global him. The pts i play have recently even specced out of thermal detonator, simply because they kill people before it even explodes.

[Theology]

I leveled my my bh healer with a pyrotech buddy through wzs, we knew something was wrong when he was putting up 600k damage voidstars at level 30, now at level 50 600k is the norm for him no matter the map. Against balanced healer games he tops out at 900k. When we stack 2 in a premade ive seen them both put up 700k in a wz, no other class can hang with that, yes maras are easier to heal but a mara has to get up in the ****, he cant grip a healer off a pillar and global him. The pts i play have recently even specced out of thermal detonator, simply because they kill people before it even explodes.

 

Tell me, did you intentionally exagerrate everything you wrote in this post? Or was it accidental?

Edited April 22, 2012 by Theology

[LoKiei]

I brought it up once... And I'm fully aware of how much damage reduction it gives. On a whole, roughly 80% of the damage flying around in PvP is kinetic and energy damage types that are mitigated by armor. Pyros themselves are one of the few specs that have their overall damage affected little by armor, which is one of their advantages. Armor is a big deal in PvP. People complain about how survivable Tank Assassins in dps gear are in PvP all the time, and their primary survivability is their tank armor (shields do very little in PvP, they have dps HP pools, and are still light on PvP useful defensive CD's)...and you yourself bring up tank stances making heavy armor "good"...it wouldn't be good if it didn't do anything. You can't have it both ways.

 

Going from 25% armor reduction to 30% armor reduction may not sound like much, but it 's actually a 7.7% decrease in damage taken going from 25 to 30. (Imagine going from 99% reduction to 100% and you can visualize what's going on here.) 7.7% is a very noticable.

 

Regardless, overall survivability is a big picture thing...it's not just armor. For a Pyro PT, range and position flexibility is the biggest component in that. And there's also passive mitigation, defensive cooldowns, CC, snares, grapple, knockback, etc...it all fits together. As that overall package, they probably are the second most survivable among burst specs, and if not second, better than average.

 

The statement that PT has a knockback means you really don't know what you're talking about.

Edited April 22, 2012 by LoKiei