alex_mazzola Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Just something I was thinking about: If Darth Sidious (Palpatine) was trained under the Rule of Two ("one to embody the power, the other to crave it") by Darth Plagueis, why is he interested in taking Luke on as a second apprentice at the same time as Darth Vader? It seems that this would be in direct violation of that very ideology. I could only come up with 2 possible answers, but neither satisfies me. 1. The Rule of Two was developed to put the Sith back into power through stealth, cunning, and precision (rather than just trying to take the galaxy by force, as previous incarnations of Sith Empires had). However, once the Sith were in power (when Sidious began his reign as Galactic Emperor), the Rule of Two no longer applied because the Sith no longer needed to hide from the Jedi (especially after most of them were killed). 2. Darth Sidious saw Luke as becoming more powerful than Darth Vader and did not wish to take on a second apprentice, but rather he sought a stronger apprentice. This would assume that he would want to trade Vader in for a newer model that actually had real limbs (for a time) and that he would probably kill Vader to make room for Luke at his side. This would not actually violate the Rule of Two, as (similarly) Darth Bane took Darth Cognus (formerly the Huntress) as a replacement for Darth Zannah when he believed her to no longer be an effective apprentice. Like I said, neither of these answers really seems like a great answer and I was hoping someone might be able to shed better light on my question. Let me know what you think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDeanOU Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Just something I was thinking about: If Darth Sidious (Palpatine) was trained under the Rule of Two ("one to embody the power, the other to crave it") by Darth Plagueis, why is he interested in taking Luke on as a second apprentice at the same time as Darth Vader? It seems that this would be in direct violation of that very ideology. I could only come up with 2 possible answers, but neither satisfies me. 1. The Rule of Two was developed to put the Sith back into power through stealth, cunning, and precision (rather than just trying to take the galaxy by force, as previous incarnations of Sith Empires had). However, once the Sith were in power (when Sidious began his reign as Galactic Emperor), the Rule of Two no longer applied because the Sith no longer needed to hide from the Jedi (especially after most of them were killed). 2. Darth Sidious saw Luke as becoming more powerful than Darth Vader and did not wish to take on a second apprentice, but rather he sought a stronger apprentice. This would assume that he would want to trade Vader in for a newer model that actually had real limbs (for a time) and that he would probably kill Vader to make room for Luke at his side. This would not actually violate the Rule of Two, as (similarly) Darth Bane took Darth Cognus (formerly the Huntress) as a replacement for Darth Zannah when he believed her to no longer be an effective apprentice. Like I said, neither of these answers really seems like a great answer and I was hoping someone might be able to shed better light on my question. Let me know what you think! It's very clearly #2. Palpatine says so. When Luke defeats Vader in Return of the Jedi and has him at his mercy Palpatine cackles and tells Luke, "Your hate has made you powerful. Now......fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side." He is commanding Luke to finish off his father so he can become the new and more powerful apprentice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeutschGamer Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Grand Plan and in extension Rule of Two was done after the Empire rose. And who wouldn't leap at the chance to get an apprentice of such potential like Luke, even if it meant having your first one die or be sidelined? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ISDEnterprise Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 The Rule of Two is more of a guideline than a rule. It should be called "The Optional Guideline of Two". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vian Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 The Rule of Two is more of a guideline than a rule. It should be called "The Optional Guideline of Two". So, it's like the Prime directive, or the Pirate code? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habushun Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Palpetine wanted to replace vader simply because he wasn't the apprentice he had wanted him to be, after mustafar vader became much less powerfull and less suitable for palpetine's purposes and thus had to be replaced. This was not the first time a apprentice of a sith lord under the rule of two was deemed not good enough and replaced by a better one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardsDestiny Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Palpatine frequently wanted BETTER Apprentices, and ordered those who he thought more worthy to kill their predecessors, such as Vader (Anakin at the time) to Dooku. I think this also provided some more control so that even though the Rule of Two was enforced, he wanted his apprentices to know he had the power and he could do whatever he liked, and in their conflict with other potential apprentices, they had no time to scheme against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Grand Plan and in extension Rule of Two was done after the Empire rose. And who wouldn't leap at the chance to get an apprentice of such potential like Luke, even if it meant having your first one die or be sidelined? This. The Rule of Two had three main directives, the successive strength of the Sith growing every generation (apprentice kills master), the Sith staying in the shadows and avoiding detection, and three, the Grand Plan (awesome name innit?) which was the destruction of the Jedi Order and the Republic. Once the Jedi Order and the Republic were destroyed, the Rule of Two was no longer relevant, and therefore was discarded in true Sith fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_mazzola Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 I see good arguments on each side of this with DeutschGamer and Aximand in favor of Option #1 (the Rule of Two no longer served a function after the rise of the Empire) and RDeanOU, HabusHun, and WizardsDestiny on the side of Option #2 (that Sidious was simply trying to replace Vader with Luke). Now you see why I was torn between the two choices? ...anyone have a third option? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 (edited) Palpy doesnt play by the rules...he makes them. He was never going to give up his power and planed on ruling for eternity. Luke, Vader, Bob the Builder, he really didnt care who his "apprentice" was, they were simply a tool to him, not a successor. Edited April 19, 2012 by TKMaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthonytats Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 Palpy doesnt play by the rules...he makes them. He was never going to give up his power and planed on ruling for eternity. Luke, Vader, Bob the Builder, he really didnt care who his "apprentice" was, they were simply a tool to him, not a successor. This is how i think basically. Sidious also had Mara Jade (Plus he had other "Hands" as Thrawn says). I personally think he believed that the Sith had outgrew the "Rule Of Two". To the original question, its like other people have said. There's nothing wrong with taking a second apprentice as long as they kill the first. Vader became a bit out of sort due to the robot casing and his turmoil for killing Padme and betraying everyone so wasnt a proper Sith however you look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thril Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 I always thought he was just wanting a newer model. Or maybe Vader was getting to powerful in someway so Palpatine was going to cast him down in favor of someone else who could provide a reset button. This way he would have a young apprentice once again that is easier to manipulate. As for the many others he had throughout the books and games. I just saw Palpatine as a Grand Master of his own academy and he kept his apprentices in check by having power plays between them and then have them try to defeat Vader if they ever want to become close to obtaining the top seat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandonSM Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 This is how i think basically. Sidious also had Mara Jade (Plus he had other "Hands" as Thrawn says). I personally think he believed that the Sith had outgrew the "Rule Of Two". . I like to believe the RoT ended with the creation of the Grand Plan. Simply because the RoT is meant for the destruction of the Jeid and Republic. And the Grand Plan created by Plageuis and SIdious was the plan for the destruction of the Jedi and Republic. So since they knew what to do and all that, I think the rules from the RoT stopped there.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LemmingLeader Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 I think Sidious just wanted to ensure he had a strong apprentice. Think about it, for the confrontation between the Emperor, Vader, and Luke. Luke wins and is turned? The Emperor ensured he got the best apprentice he can find, not to mention a decendent of Skywalker without the injuries of his father. Vader wins? Then Luke was never that powerful to begin with, and he still has the manacing Darth Vader to act as the executor of the Emperor's will across the Empire. Other than Vader's betrayal of the Emperor, everything else was a Win-Win for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebelexile Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Hi folks, interesting thread... I think that Palpatine wanted Luke as his apprentice as he saw him as being more malable than Vader. Obviously as far as he was concerned Luke had had little to no training and he would be able to fashion him into something more suitable for his needs going forward. Vader, while he wasn't set in his ways (his turn of heart towards Luke at the end of the fight being an obvious example) was much harder (imo) to manipulate and posed a bigger threat as a result. They (the Sith) were no longer secret but Palpatine obviously envisioned the continuation of the Empire under him through his use of cloning technology and I assume wanted apprentices totally devoted to him and his ideals and who did not pose a risk in overthrowing him. Here he definitely puts aside the rule in not allowing his apprentice to replace him or is it all part of another one of his schemes? His (Palpatines) 'Hands' were Sith minions (I think) along the likes of the assassins and warriors towards the end of the last Sith Empire under the 'Brotherhood' and were never allowed to develop to their full potential. He had a tight reign on them and that's the way he wanted it. I don't think he considered them anything other than tools/fodder. Wasn't it Darth Cadeus who eventually revoked the rule of two - can't remember why though as I've just started re-reading the entire series of SW books.... Obviously, all of the above is just my opinion, but I hope it adds to the discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velaran Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 For the record, the Rule of Two had become complete bull by the time of Palpatine. He killed his master by getting him drunk and waiting 'till he passed out, and Plagueis killed his master by taking advantage of a cave in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aximand Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 For the record, the Rule of Two had become complete bull by the time of Palpatine. He killed his master by getting him drunk and waiting 'till he passed out, and Plagueis killed his master by taking advantage of a cave in. So? That doesn't mean anything, all that means is that they killed their masters in a way that limited the danger it put them in (Plagueis almost died anyway). That doesn't show cowardice or a lack of strength or ability, that shows cunning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velaran Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 So? That doesn't mean anything, all that means is that they killed their masters in a way that limited the danger it put them in (Plagueis almost died anyway). That doesn't show cowardice or a lack of strength or ability, that shows cunning. Bane set up the RoT so that each new generation of Sith would be tested by the previous generation; If there's no test (IE, Palpatine getting his master drunk and killing him in his sleep) then the rule is effectively pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayla_Felana Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Bane set up the RoT so that each new generation of Sith would be tested by the previous generation; If there's no test (IE, Palpatine getting his master drunk and killing him in his sleep) then the rule is effectively pointless. It is already established by Plagueis that Sidious had become more powerful than he had ever dreamed of, and that he had taught Sidious everything he could, Sidious killed him smartly, not cowardly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velaran Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) It is already established by Plagueis that Sidious had become more powerful than he had ever dreamed of, and that he had taught Sidious everything he could, Sidious killed him smartly, not cowardly. I'm just saying, the Rule as Bane set it up was pretty much dead by that time. How many weak(er) Sith Lords had killed their masters through duplicitous means, before they had surpassed them? Edited April 20, 2012 by Velaran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maciasdrasty Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Actually, I think Bane would be proud of Palpatine;) There was no need for Rule of Two when Sith destroyed the Republic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 It is already established by Plagueis that Sidious had become more powerful than he had ever dreamed of, and that he had taught Sidious everything he could, Sidious killed him smartly, not cowardly. Smartly, cowardly, Bane would have saw them as the same. He even mentions how cowardly he thought it would be if Zannah waited untill he was too old to put up a proper fight to take his place (wich he belived she was plotting to do). He belived in the old ways of martial strength and power, even though he knew those ways were a thing of the past. Old habits and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhyltran Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Smartly, cowardly, Bane would have saw them as the same. He even mentions how cowardly he thought it would be if Zannah waited untill he was too old to put up a proper fight to take his place (wich he belived she was plotting to do). He belived in the old ways of martial strength and power, even though he knew those ways were a thing of the past. Old habits and all. Not true. He was also upset that Zannah didn't capitalize on his weakness. He also made sure not to be vulnerable around Zannah. One could argue Bane would feel Plagueis deserved to die because he allowed Sidious to discover where he slept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kellan Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 Not to mention it's all a moot point what Bane thinks of Palpatine's methods. As awesome as Bane is, Palps would fry him. He may not agree with his methods, but I think he might be proud to see how strong Palpatine was (kind of proves Bane had the right idea with RoT). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKMaster Posted April 20, 2012 Share Posted April 20, 2012 (edited) Not true. He was also upset that Zannah didn't capitalize on his weakness. He also made sure not to be vulnerable around Zannah. One could argue Bane would feel Plagueis deserved to die because he allowed Sidious to discover where he slept. True also, so we see a conflict of ideology in Bane. On one hand he belived that a sith should expolit weakness to gain power, and on another he belived it was cowardly to wait till he was personally not able to defend himself due to old age. Edited April 20, 2012 by TKMaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts