Why are we still in the "Kill 10 rats" era of MMOs?

[Scar]

Now look what BW did with the Rhakghoul plague. There is a 4th iteration thread asking for it's removal (that's means BW re-created the thread 3 times); which started day 1 of the event. And what are they complaining about - "I don't want to be effected by it. I want to Opt-out." people complain they want something dynamic, then when they are given something dynamic, they complain that it's dynamic. A developer can't win.

To be fair, those thread's proliferation are dominated by 4-5 people that are so outraged and offended by the 10 second inconvenience of the event, or the 10-15 minutes they would have needed to take to research the event to find easiest way to avoid it that they have spent 3+ days on the forums rehashing their victimization and being accosted by the game.

 

 

Anyway, OT, there are ony a few quests, ever, in any game:

• Kill [X]
  
• Deliver [X]
  
• Gather [X]
  
• Escort [X]
  
• Stay alive for [X] time
  
• Combination (Hit A, B, C etc in certain combination - puzzles would probably fall under here)
  
• Syntax
  
• Hybrids (combinations of the above)

That's it. There is no sort of innovation that is going to change it. They may mask it in any number of ways, but that is a steadfast rule of questing.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[hairlessOrphan]

Now look what BW did with the Rhakghoul plague. There is a 4th iteration thread asking for it's removal (that's means BW re-created the thread 3 times); which started day 1 of the event. And what are they complaining about - "I don't want to be effected by it. I want to Opt-out." people complain they want something dynamic, then when they are given something dynamic, they complain that it's dynamic. A developer can't win.

 

A great many people do not want someone's actions to effect their game. That's why a lot of stuff is static / solo. A developer has to cater to as many people as possible, without singling out one group or another; while still trying to make a game for everyone to enjoy. Thing is, you can't please everyone, and people will complain about the littlist thing they can find; "When I click the button, my character moves .00000000000004 micrometers to the left. It's ruining gameplay." Try and do something innovative, and people say "Well I want it to be like XYZ game!" It's a no win situation

 

I agree with your overall point, but let's make a couple of distinctions.

 

The important characteristic of the space herpes content isn't that it's dynamic. It's that it *********** KILLS YOU. Aside from randomly stunning you with no regard for your combat status, which can also get you killed. So, yeah, dynamic content might piss off some people, and dynamic content that is Bad will definitely piss off a lot of people. Fortunately for us, the two aren't inherently correlated.

 

What makes for bad dynamic content? I posit that, generally, it comes down to this: anything that unpredictably locks people out from doing what they are in the mood to do is labelled "Bad." (Even if, overall, it's quite good.) If it's the game doing it, then people say the game is Bad. If it's other players, then people say those players are Bad (aka griefers). And if it's the game enabling the players (aka dynamic content that can block other players from doing something), then both will share blame.

 

Anyway, the space herpes has a laundry list of other problems with it that make it Bad Content. The "dynamic" part of it (and it's really not that dynamic, it's not any more dynamic than open-world PvP. I'm not sure why we're calling it dynamic content, actually) is really small fry. IMO, your point overall stands, but not quite as generally as you state it.

Edited April 19, 2012 by hairlessOrphan

[Othehto]

I think it is possible to change the genre using a combination of both old and new. It takes to establishing balanced systems that run in the background.

 

1. Environment. There needs to be a food chain much like what was in in the original UO which was truly for gaming revolutionary. Certain Mobs preyed upon certain other mobs. Mobs would migrate towards prey or flee from predator. Their respawn rates were balanced based around a base value. This provided a sense of life within the environment. You would watch wolves hunt rabbits; dragons devour sheep. Mineral nodes; would increase until mined out but would eventually return within a random area of dispersal. It provided more dynamic enviroment to serve as the background.

 

2. Diurnal Routines. You need a basic cycle within the world which governs all things. NPCs migrate based upon time of day from rest, work to repast. Randomized this would lead NPCs to either gather (Saturday is market day) or isolate themselves (home to bed). Simply movement of key figures and variable speech routines based upon location would make for a more lifelike world.

 

3. Story based questing. I'm thinking something along the lines of Thief the Dark Project. Perhaps one of the best single player games ever made for theme, setting, mood and gameplay. NPCs should tell you objectives rooted in a story. While at it's core all stories follow certain literary devices; Man Struggles Against Nature, Man Struggles Against Societal Pressure, Man Struggles to Understand Divinity, Crime Does Not Pay, Overcoming Adversity, Friendship is Dependant on Sacrifice, Yin and Yang, Love is the Worthiest of Pursuits, Death is Part of the Life Cycle, Sacrifices Bring Reward, Human Beings All Have the Same Needs. While these may turn in to, "Go kill X" it becomes less obvious if it is immersive.

 

A village under "attack by a dark beast" where the beast is just sitting in a cave waiting to be killed would be different if the beast is only in the cave resting at night; the cave location is hidden and only faint clues lead to it; carcasses, footprints in the mud, etc. Then combined with No. 1. above having the "dark beast" roam increasingly at night including periods of raiding said village attacking livestock etc.. you would have something dramatically different than the traditional 1999 quest as described by the OP. The death of the beast would provide for perpetuity if you found that it was actually a female and had recently given birth; justifying why in this fixed world you find another of it's kind prey on the village years later.

 

4. Social Systems. Give players the ability to make their own fiefdoms. Whether it's build a house or a city they will do it. UO proved this. SWG it was one of the favored aspects. Every game that gets released is followed by the "will there be player housing?" question. If you have put the enviromental systems in place for raw materials this becomes simply an expanded crafting system. Combined with decay due to predators; beavers love log homes neighbors; damn thieves stole my tools left outside or elements you can have it be self regulating.

 

Yes there are systems for abuse. Players will prey upon other players. You have to sell this as part of the game however likewise you can sell obligation. There are just as many feudal sherrifs in a playerbase as there are feudal tyrants. If you give them something/someone to fight. Something to unite them; they are less likely to prey upon each other.

 

5. Conflict with a purpose. People do not engage in conflict without gain; whether for entertain or resources there has to be a reason. PvP needs something worth holding; whether it's access to a special forge; set of mines with rare ore, a trade route with foreign power.. something. Let those gains be traded openly on the market so while access may be limited it still spreads to the economy as a whole.

 

6. Market economy. Crafting without decay is meaningless. It makes establishing value difficult or results in a flooded market or inflation. Weapons and armor should break and/or melt if of normal materials; thus providing quests/objectives to find rare ore. Imagine if for weeks a comet was seen in the skies only to be followed by an earthquake from impact; fires and then a huge crater. Flora and fauna are drawn to/or away from the site; mutated into beasts and then making the rock mineable with a rare ore you have a reason to 1. find its location 2. a pvp area 3. a resource area and 4. a change in market economy.

 

It would add to the games history, "hey remember when.." and does not need to be a fixed event; but an occasional one.

 

These are some off the cuff ideas but tthey have not been seen outside of the single player games. They have been implemented in the past and could be again especially with modern coding and computer capability. It simply takes someone spending 300 million on something other than actors.

[diamondking]

 

I tell my Project Manager NO and that what he just suggested was a stupid idea all the time. (I work in business software, not games however)

 

I've walked off projects where I felt the management was doing bad things or taking a project in a poor direction all the time.

 

 

I'm sure alot of things like that has been going on inside Bioware as well.

 

You should stick up for your beliefs, but I doubt that you go up to investors in your company and say "hell no, bud, I'm making this how I want it to be, okay? So take my suggestion or leave with your money".

 

Investors is the crucial thing here.

 

This is funded by a large company out to make a profit. They want what is tried and tested, with a little extra flavour.

[hairlessOrphan]

I GOT IDEAS!

 

Just a quick note for anyone who's brainstorming new approaches to MMO's (which, NB, I totally support)...

 

The "take existing game mechanics and make them different" approach will probably generate a lot of sounds-good-on-paper-but-will-fail ideas. Try to approach it from a player psychology standpoint.

[EzoEo]

While the basic task we do in mmos can be quite boring, I have difficulties in seeing how we could make it better than Kill/Collect/Escort or any derivative. You would end up with something like Minecraft or Second Life.

 

However the difference is how it is presented and TOR do a good job there, in fact the best job yet in any mmo. There are many things that can be done, and even reasonable so in TOR:

 

• Change the hotbar combat into less hotbar focus and more focus on the combat itself. Less buttons, more movement, placement, tactics. AoC did a nice job at this, Skyrim as well.
  
• Sandbox crafting
  
• Sandbox space
   
  

 

You have to compensate for the weak parts and several other exciting things to do can do just that, suddenly have an epic mmo where people are willing to ignore the essence of Kill/Collect/Escort questing.

 

AoC combat is one of the worst I have experienced to date. It's a case of click to activate a skill then click another to finish the combo. After a while it's a tedious boring mess of uneccesary button mashing. How it is less hotbar focused is anyones guess.

 

The combat in games Arkham Asylum or Mass Effect is a better of example of being less hotbar focused. Anyone who has played DCUO will know combat is mostly mouse based with special being on the hotbar but it after a while the fun wears off.

 

I don't think there will ever be a happy medium as some prefer the traditional hotbar combat and other like the DCUO fps approach.

[yoshua]

reason:

 

just because you are a seasoned mmo veteran does not mean everyone coming to the game automatically knows the combat mechanics of an mmo. The first few quests are always tutorials on how to swing a sword, shoot a gun/bow, or cast a spell.

 

 

It is a reality check for people who have logged into an mmo for the first time, and a grind for those of us who know it.

 

 

Later in the game you there are reasons why you are killing people and larger monsters, but essentially it is still 'kill more rats' but this time there is a back story to the quest.

 

If you want an innovative MMO? Pitch the idea to someone who has enough money to make it happen.

[Arabelle]

Now look what BW did with the Rhakghoul plague. There is a 4th iteration thread asking for it's removal (that's means BW re-created the thread 3 times); which started day 1 of the event. And what are they complaining about - "I don't want to be effected by it. I want to Opt-out." people complain they want something dynamic, then when they are given something dynamic, they complain that it's dynamic. A developer can't win.

 

The problem with the Rakghoul plague is not that it's dynamic; it's that it is entirely passive. You don't do anything (assuming you're a nice person and don't go about griefing other players who do not want to be affected). You get the plague, get sick, and eventually blow up (and gain DNA that you can trade for stuff).

 

As gaming experiences go, this doesn't even go to the Pong level of complexity. Yes, the freakout over it is a bit silly, but the plague is admittedly still annoying and doesn't really have any redeeming qualities, so Bioware should not really be surprised about getting negative feedback.

 

Nor is it actually what is traditionally called a "dynamic event". A dynamic event is something that has persistent or semi-persistent effects on the gameworld that you can influence. There's really not much to influence here, and there's no persistent effect on the gameworld, either.

 

The problem that actual dynamic events (even good ones) have in a level-based, endgame-centric MMO is that the progression path through the levels is linear narrow and has many bottlenecks, and that the game incentivizes players to reach max level, not to pause and smell the roses, so to speak. If a dynamic event interferes with those bottlenecks, it ultimately leads to frustration. An MMO that properly integrates dynamic events with the leveling process (or, hypothetically, does away with levels altogether) does not face this problem; in fact, they can be welcome alternatives to doing the same quests over and over on alts, introducing much-needed variety.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Arabelle

[xxdragonragexx]

Sure!

 

Tracking/BH quests where you have to research/tail your target and find the right time to strike or capture them. Tail you target, track them down etc etc..

(FE has this)

PUZZLES! (SWTOR has a few but its mostly just in raids) DDO did this GREAT btw. All kinda of puzzles in that game. TSW is suppose to involve a lot of this as well.

 

LIVE DYNAMIC EVENTS!

How hard could this be? I like the Rakghoul thing sure, but its static, and one day we will wake up, and it will just disappear.

 

UO had entire cities INVADED by undead armies, with boss mobs controlled by REAL people, who roleplayed the part and everything. Hell they had QUESTS that were like this, with riddles and clues and all kinda of crap.

 

CRAFTNG! Why don't we have quests involving crafting? You would be surprised how many folks would like this. Going out and finding rare minerals or materials, meeting buy orders etc.

 

I know with limited interfaces like the Keyboard and mouse its tough to innovate, but other genres have done it, why not MMOs?

 

I dont just mean quests btw. I talk about a lot of concepts that have grown stale, or been over used.

 

Those are still kill, collect and escort.

[Blistrich]

Just because this mmo follows a conventional format doesn't mean we're still in "that era". Some mmos, like this one, simply employ a traditional approach because they want to appeal to players looking for an experience that is both familiar and easy to understand.

 

There are alternatives. In EVE online, all skills are trained over time, and players aren't obligated to do any PvE whatsoever in order to advance their characters. However, you can still go the "go there and get that" route if you want... because the option will always be available.

 

It isn't the foundation of mmos... it's the foundation of all games really. Task (objective), completion, reward.

 

SWTOR isn't trying to be revolutionary. It is what it is - a conventional mmo.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Blistrich

[Ishkur]

Well Eve Online shows that a sandbox without any restrictions / levels / pre-defined goals works perfectly fine and is hell of a fun bringing game and very intense.

 

Age of Conan showed a different, in my eyes VERY good combat system.

 

SWG in its early days had a really awesome skill / craft / housing system.

 

But the problem is, the normal MMO will never change things as long as the majority enjoys it. (see WOW)

[doctor_atomic]

Now look what BW did with the Rhakghoul plague. There is a 4th iteration thread asking for it's removal (that's means BW re-created the thread 3 times); which started day 1 of the event. And what are they complaining about - "I don't want to be effected by it. I want to Opt-out." people complain they want something dynamic, then when they are given something dynamic, they complain that it's dynamic. A developer can't win.

 

This sort of stupid whining has been going on for as long as there are MMOs. A long time ago in old UO the city of Trinsic was invaded by undead and held for a week or more. Whiners were pleading for it end IMMEDIATELY and were begging to be put on some sort of special status so the undead would ignore them and they could go about their business as normal. The whiners were ignored by the devs, much as the plague whiners are being ignored now.

[JerokTalram]

We are still there because all objectives that make sense can be boiled down to:

 

Collect something

Kill something.

Escort someone.

 

They can be masked well, sure, but that's all *anything* boiled down to, if you look deep enough.

 

If you would like to suggest some alternatives, go ahead. Willing to bet I'll be able to reduce them to kill/collect/escort!

 

Your missing some.

 

Get from A to B

Find someone or something

Rescue someone

 

Someone else can probably remember few more.

[Blistrich]

But the problem is, the normal MMO will never change things as long as the majority enjoys it. (see WOW)

This highlights the reason why we don't see a drift to "revolutionary" formats.

 

Some gamers are looking for a cutting-edge experience, and with the release of each new mmo, they hope to see a leap forward in how these things operate. They expect dynamic new features, but dynamic new features can be a double-edged sword. If you make the game too "open world" (Mortal Online), you alienate literally millions of potential subscribers who don't want to just get dropped in a world with no rules or clear objectives and repeatedly outpaced or slaughtered by other players who have enough experience in the game to know what they're doing.

 

Similarly, with EVE, the top complaint among new players is that there is no way they will ever be able to catch up to veteran players, and therefore they are at a massive disadvantage in most situations. They realize that the players who make the most money do so through social engineering experiments, and it's a turnoff for them.

 

Your average mmo player wants to log in, get a little boost from the "instant gratification" provided by straight-forward quests and PvP objectives, enjoy themselves, and log out. They don't want to fear for their lives or go out of their way to employ special mechanics in order to develop a sandbox world. Instead, they just want a warm fuzzy feeling, and the "conventional mmo" serves that up.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Blistrich

[Ishkur]

This highlights the reason why we don't see a drift to "revolutionary" formats.

 

Some gamers are looking for a cutting-edge experience, and with the release of each new mmo, they hope to see a leap forward in how these things operate. They expect dynamic new features, but dynamic new features can be a double-edged sword. If you make the game too "open world" (Mortal Online), you alienate literally millions of potential subscribers who don't want to just get dropped in a world with no rules or clear objectives and repeatedly outpaced or slaughtered by other players who have enough experience in the game to know what they're doing.

 

Similarly, with EVE, the top complaint among new players is that there is no way they will ever be able to catch up to veteran players, and therefore they are at a massive disadvantage in most situations. They realize that the players who make the most money do so through social engineering experiments, and it's a turnoff for them.

 

Your average mmo player wants to log in, get a little boost from the "instant gratification" provided by straight-forward quests and PvP objectives, enjoy themselves, and log out. They don't want to fear for their lives or go out of their way to employ special mechanics in order to develop a sandbox world. Instead, they just want a warm fuzzy feeling, and the "conventional mmo" serves that up.

 

Sums it up pretty much. New players in Eve tend to say things like "tha't it?" or something similar cause they don't want to dive into such a complex universe, even if they come to forums like this and beg for a more evolved game.

[terminova]

To be fair, those thread's proliferation are dominated by 4-5 people that are so outraged and offended *snip*

 

That isn't being fair, being fair would be to acknowledge that there are 8-10 people dominating the thread arguing with each other and not listening to anyone. THAT is why the thread is in it's 4th iteration, not because "4-5 people are so outraged and offended."

Edited April 19, 2012 by terminova

[QuiJonPed]

I'm sorry to say that's just wrong. nothing useful can be done with a T1 frigate, except a Goon style suicide gank. 80% of high sec PvP is cargo ganks with battlecruiser or battleship where you need high skills to pull it off before getting Concorded. Missions in Eve are a repetitive snorefest. You need 6 months to a year of focused training minimum to acceptable in any kind of alliance warfare.

 

You Sir, are a fool. Frigates tackle. They do that very well, and any new player can train up Propulsion Jamming and go tackle for a fleet.

 

Similarly, with EVE, the top complaint among new players is that there is no way they will ever be able to catch up to veteran players, and therefore they are at a massive disadvantage in most situations. They realize that the players who make the most money do so through social engineering experiments, and it's a turnoff for them.

 

That is incorrect, well partially as it is a top complaint but only from the MTV Gimme Noaw generation. You can only train a skill to level five. Once you've trained that skill to level five, you have "caught up". You will not have the same amount of skill point as someone who has started playing before you, but that doesn't matter as both of you can only train racial (i.e. Gallente) Frigate to level five. The older player who has more skill points may have another racial (i.e. Minimatar/Amarr/Caldari) Frigate five, but that is irrelevant as you can only fly one ship at a time.

 

The problem for most people is that they are spoon fed their MMO, and cannot adapt to an environment like EVE.

Edited April 19, 2012 by QuiJonPed

[Ishkur]

You Sir, are a fool. Frigates tackle. They do that very well, and any new player can train up Propulsion Jamming and go tackle for a fleet.

 

What he said. Sure, you can't do that from day 1 but you will have the skills needed pretty fast to be a valuable tackle ship with fast lock speed. Also this will teach you alot about scan and target resoltion, transversal speed etc.

[Scar]

That isn't being fair, being fair would be to acknowledge that there are 8-10 people dominating the thread arguing with each other and not listening to anyone. THAT is why the thread is in it's 4th iteration, not because "4-5 people are so outraged and offended."

 

My apologies. I would have thought the ":p" would have clearly pointed out that anything prior to that emoticon was tongue in cheek. Apparently that wasn't so.

[Maniigoldo]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Daeada is right. If you look hard enough, you can easily say that all games are just "go from A to Z."

 

 

EDIT: Also, the graphics in MMOs are so bad that I don't know if I'd even want the company to waste the time making those set pieces.

 

TERA say hello

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqE5XsAO5g&feature=related

 

Edited April 19, 2012 by Maniigoldo

[AnimalMotherr]

So, i was kinda thinking today about MMO's in general, and I have to wonder, with the advancement of other genre why is it that a AAA critically acclaimed MMO like SWTOR resort to the same old boring "Kill X number of enemies" Or "Click/collect X number of items"?

 

Couldn't we do better? Shooters have evolved from run down (relatively) flat corridor A to room B shoot guys on the way to epic movie quality story with physics mechanics and vehicles, branching nonlinear gameplay etc etc.

 

RPGs went from menu driven battle systems to active time to real time battling/sword fight, awesome exploration, free flowing skill systems, and incredible presentation.

 

Sports games have gone from top down click button throw ball games to motion sensitive actually throwing/hitting the ball, full body experiences.

 

 

MMOs? Or SWTOR specifically as well. Same crap(for the most part) from EQ days. Go kill some rats. Go collect some weeds.

 

Push buttons 1-12(- and =) on your keyboard, move sometimes, watch guy swing sword/lightsaber or fire gun. Still managing 4 hotbars of buttons. A mindless rotation of buttons with a few situational thrown in,

 

I thought the light/darkside choices would actually make a difference but essentially once you reach 50 you all have follow the same path/railroad with very little difference. THats right, you lightside jedi will end up at 50 in the same position my darkside one does.

 

Heck i even tried to be the absolutely worst Jedi imaginable(Killed, murdered, stole, lied), and i still made it out of the academy, became a Jedi knight, then a master and so on etc etc...

 

I call that the illusion of choice.

 

Its not impossible to bring something new to the table. AoC had semi interesting combat mechanics, FE was a full fledged Mad MAX style shooter MMO, SWG had genious crafting.

 

Why does it fell like SWTOR did a great job with story, but grabbed the rest of their game from 1999.

Having great story, and boring/repetitive game mechanics doesn't make a great game.

 

Especially when you roll an alt and have to slog through 90% of the same quests again, do the same dailies a mindless amount of times to grind gear, and ALWAYS no matter what choices you make, end up in the same place as the last 50 guys.

 

I loved the game when it first came out, it was fantastic.. until I realized its the same crap that has been shoved down our throats since the EQ theme-park. Every planet has X organization that needs help because nobody can do anything on their own, you go kill some guys, click on some terminals/bombs/boxes, you move on to the next planet.

 

Ill continue this post later.. TBC

 

it sells. If people liked innovation in MMORPGs games like Atlantica, Rusty Hearts, RaiderZ and stuff like that wouldnt be F2P. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Otherwise known as the Call of Duty approach. They've released the same game like 5 years in a row now.... and people are still buying it.

[Ishkur]

TERA say hello

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdqE5XsAO5g&feature=related

 

 

I will never understand how people are so excited about all this korea / china MMOs. If you want REALLY good graphics with a really cool setting, combat system and gore => Age of Conan.

 

I mean hey, you can hit multiple targets at once with all abilitys as your weapon swings, you have actuall characters blocking each other with collision etc. Still loving the game and it sadly has a lot of stuff I miss in SWTOR.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Ishkur

[AnimalMotherr]

I will never understand how people are so excited about all this korea / china MMOs. If you want REALLY good graphics with a really cool setting, combat system and gore => Age of Conan.

 

/agree

 

anyone remember Aion? "Look at those awesome graphics!" "This is going to be the WoW killer"

 

*giggle*

[Ishkur]

/agree

 

anyone remember Aion? "Look at those awesome graphics!" "This is going to be the WoW killer"

 

*giggle*

 

Yeah ^^

 

I still demand finishing moves in SWTOR. Get rid of that teen rating already..

 

Nothing says **** you better then chopping some heads off in PVP.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Sireene
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