Tank Assassins (and Shadows) are ruining PvP.

[Vaipyr]

If you don't believe me then re-roll the other tank classes and you'll see a Shadow does everything better plus they get stealth and self-healing (Guardian's self-healing from a tanking perspective doesn't count as it loses threat.)

 

Already have man. I'll take my Vanguard tank in PvP over my Tankasin anyday. Charge, pull, aoe stun, 30m capability, aoe on demand for objective clearing. Jugg tanks are crap, always have been, but I'd put my tanksin vs my vanguard anyday and feel they're equal. Difference being that my tanksin gets to go 31 into the tank tree while my vanguard only goes up to charge. Utility wise the ONLY thing that I feel my tanksin has that my VG doesn't is stealth. Stealth as a non-gank class is only marginally useful anyways so I honestly prefer having my charge for z-axis mobility.

 

VG and PT tanks are ****** mu****s when played well and I find it hard to believe that anyone who spends time on all the can-tank AC's finds any issue with any of them except the crap damage of juggs/guardians when tank spec'd.

Edited April 22, 2012 by Vaipyr

[Heith]

eh imo assassins > powertechs

[MandraMoody]

As a Scoundrel, tank assassins are one of my easiest fights 1v1. Much more afraid of tank powertechs/vanguards.

 

Shhhh no one wants to hear that as it doesn't follow in line with all the whining. lmao!

 

/whisper you're right though I eat em on my ops too

[DarthOvertone]

I thought it was obvious, but since the training dummy has identical defenses versus any player

 

But it doesn't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

lawl

[ComeAndSee]

Counter classes are funny.

 

//

 

I duel a Sentinel and lose. The same Sentinel duels a Shadow and loses. I duel the Shadow and win.

 

Funny thing is we can all duel a Sage and roflpwn them. xD

[Proteus]

More stupidity.

As a full spec shadow tank, even at my max of 700DPS, I can't take down a GOOD healing sage. They can literally self heal through anything I can do. Against a GOOD DPS sage, its even money, as it should be.

That 10% "instant heal"? Every TWO MINUTES. That 9% heal through harnessed shadows, TK throw? Yes, it IS interruptable (knockback), and requires 3 stacks to generate. Our 1v1 burst is pathetic. "Immune to force" ? Yeah..every 45s. Give me a break!

 

Then you are not a "good" TankAssin or you don't have good dps gear.

 

Immune to force, force pull, force speed, 10% instant heal, 9% heal through a non-interruptable ability.

 

Sure, I can interrupt that 9% heal with a stun or knock-back. Knockback is out because... ummm, you just said to keep them at range (remember?), so now I need to save my stun for that one ability, right? How exactly do I get to range? With lift? They either trinket out or have immunity to force up and running.

 

You're grasping at straws with your L2P arguement. I'm arguably top 5 Sage / Sorc on my entire server, War Hero, Full BM with a WH sprinkled in here and there. I know how to play my class and have tried every spec combo under the sun.

 

Now, we're talking about GOOD Tank shadows / assassins in dps gear. They are harder for me, as a Sage to kill than an OP or even a Marauder. L2P arguments are like when someone starts using profanity or screaming in a debate, it means you have no legit response and have already conceded the point.

 

EDIT: All of this while in a TANKING stance with higher armor, shield chance, etc, etc...

[Darianth]

Shadow's are squishy, even with CD'S up, L2Counteract them, and stop being bad.

there more or less a 1v1 class (yes they have the ability too cc etc etc...) but they should destroy you ESP with cooldown's available, stop crying.

 

Assasin tank's on the other hand, yes they need there dmg lower quite a bit.

Oh and while there at it, nerf mara/sents, i hear they need it now .

 

It's ppl like this who cry for a nerd just because they"heard" something that end up getting things ruined. Mara/sents are where they need to be. Their damage counteracts their squishyness.

[Proteus]

The part where we get a 150% buff to armor in tank stance? The part where we lose a significant number of DPS abilities in tank stance, dropping our DPS from about 1200+ (DPS spec'd gear'd) to about 700 (tank spec'd, dps gear). To make it real clear (Tank shadow=2x armor rating, half the DPS vs DPS shadow). Whys is this bad/hard to understand?

 

If you are in DPS gear, does that not make you a DPS? If not, which part of darkness spec actually makes you a tank more than max health and defense?

[DarthKhaos]

i was amazed when i looked through the patch notes and see operatives getting nerfed again and assassins not changing. i have a 50 assassin (my mains a marauder though). i couldnt believe it. tank assassins in dps gear are by far the most overpowered class with way too many tools.

 

ive since unsubscribed to the game but ill stick around till my subscription runs out. ill come back in a year when bioware has hopefully gotten the game straightened out (or EA does to SWTOR what it did to earth and beyond.)

And this is a fault of the class? The player equipped dps gear and you're shocked they do more dps. What do you think will happen if a merc equips tanking gear? Sheesh.

[BDutch]

The part where we get a 150% buff to armor in tank stance? The part where we lose a significant number of DPS abilities in tank stance, dropping our DPS from about 1200+ (DPS spec'd gear'd) to about 700 (tank spec'd, dps gear). To make it real clear (Tank shadow=2x armor rating, half the DPS vs DPS shadow). Whys is this bad/hard to understand?

 

Is the "700 DPS" referring to the parses mentioned earlier from tank geared people in PvE, or were there some more applicable parses mentioned in the last 40 pages?

[Dracosz]

Tankasins are fine.

[YanksfanJP]

And nowhere did I mention that this was about anything but Tank Assassins. I have no strong feelings either way when it comes to the other specs because everyone and their mother is rolling tank-spec anyway. For good reason.

 

Because it wins games.

 

They're rolling tank assassins because the other two assassin trees are terrible. When the other two trees got buffed I'm sure you'll see a lot fewer tank assassins around.

[cycao]

Honestly...you can get higher numbers damage wise in a warzone not that it even matters in a DPS spec. When I switched to deception for the very first time last night, I topped the board for damage in Civil War which I really cannot do when I am with my normal tank build. I thought it was a glitch because from what I hear it is impossible to do more dps in a dps spec over a tank...crazy and I filed a ticket.

[Kaze-Yama]

People need to stop calling them tank assassins because that isn't what they are. They are dps assassins who are just exploiting the game systems to live longer.

 

I actually play an assassin tank with full spec in the tank tree and tank gear and my damage output is terrible, most of my damage comes from aoe and hitting my procs on lightning and shock. At best I will crit for like 2k.

 

Obviously the issue isn't the tank tree it is how the gear system and stats work. If you nerf tank damage the people actually playing as tanks will get screwed. Somehow they need to adjust the talent trees to actually make deception or madness worth specing in since most of the damage seems to depend on gear not the talents you have.

[Neamhan]

Is the "700 DPS" referring to the parses mentioned earlier from tank geared people in PvE, or were there some more applicable parses mentioned in the last 40 pages?

 

Why don't you provide some parses of a tank specced assassin doing higher DPS?

[BDutch]

Why don't you provide some parses of a tank specced assassin doing higher DPS?

 

The only numbers I have are the PvE ones provided from tank assassins in PvE tank gear. Maybe you should stop using parses as a talking point until you can find their PvP counter-parts? I didn't go off on this "700 DPS", "half the DPS of a DPS class" tangent... doesn't seem like it's any better than any other anecdotal evidence if you can't back it up.

 

On the other hand, I'll be the first to support your point when someone links a PvP parse that shows that tank assassin burst DPS is nothing to write home about.

[Neamhan]

The only numbers I have are the PvE ones provided from tank assassins in PvE tank gear. Maybe you should stop using parses as a talking point until you can find their PvP counter-parts? I didn't go off on this "700 DPS", "half the DPS of a DPS class" tangent... doesn't seem like it's any better than any other anecdotal evidence if you can't back it up.

 

On the other hand, I'll be the first to support your point when someone links a PvP parse that shows that tank assassin burst DPS is nothing to write home about.

 

I actually don't have to prove anything because it's not my job to disprove their claims, it's their job to prove them. Bioware has indicated in both word and deed that Assassins are fine. The people crying nerfs are the ones who need to prove their case, which none have done. They are, after all, the ones saying something is wrong. Where's the evidence of that? If a spec is doing more damage in PvP than in PvE, then prove it. I've provided what I've been able to find simply as a point of reference, which is more than anyone else has done so far. I'm making parses a 'talking point' because it's the closest thing we have to an objective set of data we can look at.

 

One would think that with the number of people claiming to have Valor 60+ Assassins that their their class is 'overpowered', one of them would run a parse on the WZ dummy to actually prove their point. Until one does, the parses I linked are still the most relevant despite the fact that they were done for PvE.

[Zintair]

The only numbers I have are the PvE ones provided from tank assassins in PvE tank gear. Maybe you should stop using parses as a talking point until you can find their PvP counter-parts? I didn't go off on this "700 DPS", "half the DPS of a DPS class" tangent... doesn't seem like it's any better than any other anecdotal evidence if you can't back it up.

 

On the other hand, I'll be the first to support your point when someone links a PvP parse that shows that tank assassin burst DPS is nothing to write home about.

 

Why don't you go to the Shadow Forum and look for parses because they are there instead of people doing homework for you. Seems like people want to talk a huge game about how OP Shadows are but do no homework themselves, just cry OP and champion other BS that people say.

 

For the record I've seen anywhere from 700-1000 DPS for KC in Tank for lower end and DPS gear for higher end.

 

I never thought the DPS variation was effective pre-1.2 and laughed at people using it but after 1.2 they have reduced the usefulness of me in Tank gear completely. My survivability is barely better than a DPS.

 

BTW Balance and Infiltration are VERY effective skill trees that when used by skilled players really shines.

 

Anyone saying otherwise is ignorant. Period.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Zintair

[Barrgil]

Tank Assassins and Shadows are NOT supposed to kill someone in 6-7 hits, let alone even pull 4k damage. Stop it, they're not overpowered in any aspect and only balances out according to skill tree. I play a 50 Tank Assassin also and the MOST I ever hit for was 3200 (Shock) and that was with recklessness and a relic on. I barely hit 2-3k and my average dps is 189+ or less.

 

We're supposed to survive, not demolish through mobs of everything while becoming invincible.

[Kracin]

Tank Assassins and Shadows are NOT supposed to kill someone in 6-7 hits, let alone even pull 4k damage. Stop it, they're not overpowered in any aspect and only balances out according to skill tree. I play a 50 Tank Assassin also and the MOST I ever hit for was 3200 (Shock) and that was with recklessness and a relic on. I barely hit 2-3k and my average dps is 189+ or less.

 

We're supposed to survive, not demolish through mobs of everything while becoming invincible.

 

mine is full bm. and there are 3 main attacks.. thrash, which can do about 1-1.2k per hit. force lightning which, happens to be max ticked at 720 per tick (2800 on a long channel which can be inturrupted), and shock. which when specced into CAN do damage. but you need to basically use a shock first, then hope you get the CD reset with a thrash, so you can pop recklessness, just to get a big crit (which only gets done once recklessness is off CD. 1:15).. and death field has at the most on undergeared players, popped for 2500.

 

 

the reason why people QQ is because they have quite a bit of utility, which is why i rolled it in the first place. (and because i THOUGHT, they were a rogue type class... but i was dead wrong about that). i saw that they had all the stuff my sage had as far as balance tree was concerned, and figured having stealth and fight resetters would be great to boot. so i rolled assassin before finding out that everyone thought they were OP.

 

 

honestly its not the damage they put out that is killing people, its the fact that they can pick and choose fights, and they can move around easier than other melee classes when it comes to being rooted/stunned. we don't have tons of closers, but i've got a 4 sec stun, an 8 sec mezz(with 2 sec stun on the end), a 3 second knockdown/stun, an inturrupt, force speed, a pull, and a 30m aoe shot (death field).

 

i specced different than the other 31 point tank assassins, but i like how i get a little bit more utility for some games and the death field comes in handy more than it is used for damage. i also don't run harnessed shadows, so count out that massive force lightning healing ticks

[BDutch]

I actually don't have to prove anything because it's not my job to disprove their claims, it's their job to prove them. Bioware has indicated in both word and deed that Assassins are fine. The people crying nerfs are the ones who need to prove their case, which none have done. They are, after all, the ones saying something is wrong. Where's the evidence of that? If a spec is doing more damage in PvP than in PvE, then prove it. I've provided what I've been able to find simply as a point of reference, which is more than anyone else has done so far. I'm making parses a 'talking point' because it's the closest thing we have to an objective set of data we can look at.

 

One would think that with the number of people claiming to have Valor 60+ Assassins that their their class is 'overpowered', one of them would run a parse on the WZ dummy to actually prove their point. Until one does, the parses I linked are still the most relevant despite the fact that they were done for PvE.

 

So you're complaining about other people not doing their research in PvP, while you link the research that someone else did for PvE?

Edited April 23, 2012 by BDutch

[Barrgil]

mine is full bm. and there are 3 main attacks.. thrash, which can do about 1-1.2k per hit. force lightning which, happens to be max ticked at 720 per tick (2800 on a long channel which can be inturrupted), and shock. which when specced into CAN do damage. but you need to basically use a shock first, then hope you get the CD reset with a thrash, so you can pop recklessness, just to get a big crit (which only gets done once recklessness is off CD. 1:15).. and death field has at the most on undergeared players, popped for 2500.

 

 

the reason why people QQ is because they have quite a bit of utility, which is why i rolled it in the first place. (and because i THOUGHT, they were a rogue type class... but i was dead wrong about that). i saw that they had all the stuff my sage had as far as balance tree was concerned, and figured having stealth and fight resetters would be great to boot. so i rolled assassin before finding out that everyone thought they were OP.

 

 

honestly its not the damage they put out that is killing people, its the fact that they can pick and choose fights, and they can move around easier than other melee classes when it comes to being rooted/stunned. we don't have tons of closers, but i've got a 4 sec stun, an 8 sec mezz(with 2 sec stun on the end), a 3 second knockdown/stun, an inturrupt, force speed, a pull, and a 30m aoe shot (death field).

 

i specced different than the other 31 point tank assassins, but i like how i get a little bit more utility for some games and the death field comes in handy more than it is used for damage. i also don't run harnessed shadows, so count out that massive force lightning healing ticks

 

I run Full Darkness and 10 points into the Madness for the double-shock. Other than that, I'm full tank gear in stats and everything.

 

To be completely honest, I think people who are complaining about this matter just needs to learn to play. I've been in situations where I was cornered by 2 guys, a Jedi Shadow FULL DPS gear, and a Sage DPS. Both looked to be pretty well geared and I held them off long enough for my other teammates to kill them. I had 1/2 health remaining after about 2 minutes in after popping cooldowns and I killed the Shadow and was running towards the Sage.

 

It's a very skill-oriented class and is why I actually picked it in the first place. It's very fun to play, and you really need to know what to do and when to do it.

[Kracin]

I run Full Darkness and 10 points into the Madness for the double-shock. Other than that, I'm full tank gear in stats and everything.

 

To be completely honest, I think people who are complaining about this matter just needs to learn to play. I've been in situations where I was cornered by 2 guys, a Jedi Shadow FULL DPS gear, and a Sage DPS. Both looked to be pretty well geared and I held them off long enough for my other teammates to kill them. I had 1/2 health remaining after about 2 minutes in after popping cooldowns and I killed the Shadow and was running towards the Sage.

 

It's a very skill-oriented class and is why I actually picked it in the first place. It's very fun to play, and you really need to know what to do and when to do it.

 

which is what utility oriented classes require. i am flat out of keybinds and am forced to use a click for certain things like buffs, other classes, like powertech. i have every single uesable thing on a bind no problem. but they are a very straight forward class

[Barrgil]

which is what utility oriented classes require. i am flat out of keybinds and am forced to use a click for certain things like buffs, other classes, like powertech. i have every single uesable thing on a bind no problem. but they are a very straight forward class

 

Haha, same here. My Naga can only use so many buttons... Either way, I tend to focus primarily on getting the most attention during PvP and distract while my teammates score the objectives. I'm more of a bait when I play and I usually am the one to score during Huttball since people know I'm a tank.

[cycao]

which is what utility oriented classes require. i am flat out of keybinds and am forced to use a click for certain things like buffs, other classes, like powertech. i have every single uesable thing on a bind no problem. but they are a very straight forward class

 

Agreed. Some will say that the rotation is simple and I would tend to agree with that. However to play the class right is way harder than simple setting up for harnessed darkness every time. I can tell when I go up against a re-roller as the fight is never close. It may be due to the fact that I have been playing this spec for all 5 months this game has been out but I could be wrong and that I dont have alts so all I do is play the class.