I'm pvping about 60% less. Is this really what you wanted?

[Faeldawn]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

 

How many times can you play the same three warzones over and over if there were no incentive before you get bored?

 

Face facts, pvp in SWTOR is laughable, it's just an awful mess of overpowered abilities and rediculous CC and with no incentives for players to stay and fight the opted pre-made groups who will farm pugs all day players simply won't pvp anymore. That leads to longer queue's for everyone and inevitably players leave, new players don't persist because of the huge gear imbalance and the time sink comms and valor dirge that currently exists is a grind, pure and simple.

 

If SWTOR had great inventive and more importantly fun pvp it wouldn't be such an issue, but it doesn't. It's repetitive, skilless and dominated by gear and premade groups many of who exploited their way to high valor rank initially to gain their original advantage.

[Cocox]

It's been beaten to death and I hope the devs are listening, but I'm starting a new thread, anyway.

PvP really sucks, now. I'm pvping at least 60% less than I used to.

 

Here's basically the result of 1.2 pvp "enhancements":

1. You've created a huge reward divide. The result is you've made it much more difficult to bridge that divide and gear up since the loser rewards are frankly paltry.

2. When people start losing, they leave.

3. If people start losing too much, they'll stop pvping for a while. Maybe they log, too. I know I do.

4. People bail when their team gets behind.

5. People leave rather than backfill a losing warzone.

6. Sub 50s pvp can be extremely unrewarding, so unrewarding it's barely worth pvping, resulting in new players getting a terrible impression of SWTOR pvp. That means fewer new subscriptions. Congratulations, BioWare! You're killing the game. (BTW, this really reminds me of the kind of idiocy I'd see at Warhammer. I really hope you don't have the BioWare-Mythic team working on your PvP enhancements.)

 

If you cater to the hardcore, you'll end up only with the hardcore playing.

 

 

This.

I am, actually used to be a very active pvp player, logging more than 6 hours a day of play everyday, sometimes 10 hours ore more. PVP was fun.

Used to play Jugg, Sorc Healer and Sniper, all level 50.

1.2 caught me full BM on all 3 characters.

Now, PVP is just a joke. Most of my playtime was solo, outside the usual imba premade with my friends.

Outside the premade, PVP has become frustrating. My Sorc Healer is now rubbish along with my Sniper. The Jugg does a bit better in PVP but it's survavibility went down too.

 

Trooper/Merc grav/tracr spam got changed from 2000+ every 2 seconds, to a rotation of abilities that still do around 2000 every 2 seconds but on top of that it comes a burst 0f 4000-5000 (7000+ of my light armor Sorc).

 

Some Sentinel/Maras now Ravage you for 4000-6000 within 3 seconds (or 8000-12000 on my light armor Sorc).

 

PVP for me has become frustrating as a whole: the class changes, damage changes, heal nerfs, overbuffs of other classes, crap rewards. Now it's just bad mechanics.

 

I've been playing less and less for the last 3 days and if something is not done soon, I will probably stop playing..

 

Bioware produced great games, but this SW mmo, just proves that they are novices in the mmo field. Maybe a future Mass Effect MMO will be much better developed and handled, based on the know how acquired after the burial of the promising game that SWTOR is..

[SWImara]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

This would be a valid argument if this weren't a loot based WoW-style PvP stat game. PvP in SWTOR is rewarding, getting rofl-stomped due to alterations to the PvP stat system made to separate PvP and PvE games is not. The whole "must have rewards for everything" is a remnant of WoW yes, but so is the "PvPing more gives you better PvP gear for easier facerolling" approach to design.

 

Pre 1.2 I loved PvP, post 1.2 there is utterly 0 reason for me to attempt to participate without re-rolling a new character. Pre 1.2 SWTOR had some issues but overall its balance was ok (better than many/most games) post 1.2 is a hot mess.

 

 

PS your new forum doesn't display bullets.

Also this... seriously.

[chillshock]

chain 1)

Losing is bad and frustrating.

 

Losing without a chance - aka 'getting steamrolled' - is demotivating, to say the least.

 

Not getting any 'make up' for that results in "and thats what I spend my free time for?" thoughts.

 

chain 2)

A starter gear raises hopes for not getting squished like a bug.

 

The starter gear proves to be totall inefficient vs bm geared (or better, by now) oponents.

 

The gear GAP is closing slower as the good get better and the bad remain badly geared as addition to less experience.

 

chain 3)

No rewards for losing

 

No fun getting 'rolled

 

No playtime

 

No good memories of the game and the company - because it is NEVER the customers fault. - sry.

 

conclusion

I actually enjoyed the game's pvp pre 1.2 - I felt like being slow, less equipped, but hey - champ was cool. got me to not-feel-like-a-total-loss and it was fairly easy to achieve. Now... I feel like the scrub-player the 'pros' call me. I'm a waste of space in the team (ok, maybe I'm better because I only leave if the phone's ringing, not just for 'this is a lost game'). I do not enjoy the game anymore. I didn't log in today, because I didn't feel like getting stomped repeatedly after a day of work. I do not recommend the game anymore - not to friends, not to coworkers, not at all. I couldn't. I think the last words I said about this: "meh, they screwed it up, it's just another wow grind now. I'll get a free month, but then..." and the reply was "oh, damn, I guess I'll wait and see then."

 

It's just another spend-much-time-online game now.

 

And not even a cool - and it is really cool - story can keep a game running if the mechanic is messed up. And those long time players, thinking they rock because everything loses to them - well - they'll soon be fighting just each other and finding out that CLASS X IS TOTALLY OP!!!

 

I'm certain many will cease playing. Or unsub. Or never join.

 

First motivation goes away, everything else just follows.

[Sickboy_]

60% less? I pvp about 70-80% less. I'll log in, do 3 warzones, and If I win I quit for the day. If I lose, I log anyway. If the imp A team is out, its going to mean we will lose every single game all day, so I just quit for the day after one game. Removing the illum quests and giving me nothing for losing removes all my incentive to play. I get 30 commendations per loss whereas in 1.1 I got 70. The only people that like these changes are greifers that get off on causing people problems.

[DarkHelsing]

I have to agree, and like the other threads on here, my response will be the same;

 

Our sever all but died prior to patch 1.2, players bored of the end game and awaiting all the new promises in 1.2 Legacy.

 

I am a PvPer, I only raided when the ques were so long on our dyeing server that I couldn’t stand the wait. So I’m only here to address the part of the game I focus the most on, PvP.

 

Prior to patch 1.2 I read so many threads on here about how Expertise was a bad idea, or poorly implemented at best. I myself made a thread about the problems I felt PvP had. A lot of what I read, players wanted Expertise gone, or moved to a set bonus instead of an ever increasing system. The second big complaint was the players could not customize their gear like they had been accustomed to doing up to level 50. Or new looking gear, Operatives that didn’t have 80’s FM radio headsets for head gear. Sorcs and Assassins that didn’t have feather head dresses and skirts, etc. Finally I read a lot about how poorly the que system was, no cross server, horrible pub to imp ratios, and a que system that allowed games to start 4 versus 8.

 

So Patch 1.2 was looking to be a new rebirth into all these issues. The new gear was going to be strippable so we could customize our gear like prior to level 50. A que system that allows 8 player groups to que against each other 8 player groups. And a revamped Expertise system.

 

Patch 1.2 hits… and those in the PvP end game had disappointment handed out all around.

 

1) The gear can be totally removed and customized, but the set bonus stays with the gear anyways, so there goes having any choice of using the gear you like the look of unless you plan to gimp your toon. So that advertised feature literally meant nothing as players are stuck with the gear anyways.

2) The new gear, when did Rainbow Bright get hired as the lead designer for Bioware?

3) Expertise was adjusted, but instead of helping remove it from the game, or bring it down to steady levels, more Expertise was added to the gear.

4) Players that customized their gear prior to patch 1.2 got rewarded for their creative by losing the new Expertise that was added to the Mod and Enhancement slots.

5) The old win-lose system did not give Premades much of an incentive to play, only to finish the dailies fasters. The new system that rewards the win, but gives little to nothing to the loosing team, now offers major incentive for premades. However the que system has no problem throwing 8 player ops groups versus 100% total random groups. So the Que system went from bad to horrible.

 

Allow PvE'ers get gear by doing PvE. PvP'ers get gear by doing PvP. Different looks, different set bonuses, different ways to customize, these are all things that make having more choices fun... but never anything to force players into one venue or the other, never removing the ability to allow the player base to choose freely how they want to get gear. And there is no reason PvPers shouldn't be able to take a break from PvP and raid, and raiders shouldn't be able to take a break from Raiding and PvP. The fact that I die during a raid because I didn't know where to stand, or the fact that they die during PvP because they didn't know... those are the things that should separate players... how well they actually play.

 

 

Dear BioWare,

 

The updates you have made to PvP went in the opposite direction they needed to go. From class balance, to skill trees, to gear redesign, to the que system, to the reward system. I haven't seen so many people quit after a patch in any MMO I’ve ever played.

 

Expertise is a STUPID IDEA; please get that through your heads. Remove it from the game. Allow players to customize their gear to affect their outcome in PvP. PvP gear vs PvE gear = how a player decides to customize their gear set stats and looks, end of story.

 

Your Que system needs a complete over-haul. Ops Groups should not be able to enter a Que against total pugs, period. If the server population means that feature would be totally dead… then re-haul the system for cross-server Ques. Groups of 3 and less should only ever play against other groups of 3 or less. Groups of 4 should only get Qued against groups of 4, so each team has 2 premades on it. Groups of 5-7 should be in their own Que, possibly allowing one or two random players onto a team. Groups of 8 should only get Qued against other Groups of 8. Four different Que levels, for balance and because it’s the logical way to handle it.

 

Thank you BioWare.

~Me

 

PS

Can we have a Fight Club area on the Fleet Station, a FFA Zone?

Edited April 18, 2012 by DarkHelsing

[Cial]

That's exactly what i started to think...the people behind all the warhammer pvp changes must have found a new job with TOR pvp

 

They did.

 

Gabe Amatangelo was instrumental in the failure of WAR - he was one of the LEAD devs for Land of the Dead among other things.

 

Guess where he is now? Oh yeah, he's the HEAD PVP Dev for Tor.

 

Mythic was officially merged into BioWare-Mythic shortly before Tor's launch, and in the process many, many devs from WAR are now working on Tor.

 

GG right?

[gwrtheyn]

the "new" recute starter pvp gear is not this bad,ist real close to BM.

got 50 10h ago(twink BH PT),saved 2k w comms+1k merc comms

 

so @ lv50 without doing anything but going to the merchant->

BM weapon mainhand,2x BM imp ,rest recute -> ~950expertise,70%+ crit dmg,670 dmg bonus

 

Edti: i know,no set bonus,less crit and crit dmg,less tp,but overall the set is ok(~10% less than BM i would think)

 

with this gear you can do kinda well,so gear is less a problem

 

Edit2: pre 1.2 with saved 6 champ bags+modded gear you had a real hard time in PvP til you got some more gear,now its kinda great full pvp gear @ 50 and grinding full bm is real fast vs the old 2xdaily grind

Edited April 18, 2012 by gwrtheyn

[oldin]

I do not enjoy the game anymore. I didn't log in today, because I didn't feel like getting stomped repeatedly after a day of work. I do not recommend the game anymore - not to friends, not to coworkers, not at all. I couldn't. I think the last words I said about this: "meh, they screwed it up, it's just another wow grind now.

 

It's just another spend-much-time-online game now.

 

And not even a cool - and it is really cool - story can keep a game running if the mechanic is messed up.

First motivation goes away, everything else just follows.

 

I really didn't know how I felt about the changes until I read this. After I get home from work and feed the family I was excited to login and PVP and even if I lost I got a decent parting gift. I would PVP for 1-2 hrs straight. Now I PVP until I get my one win and log. Now I am even starting to question that. Regardless how you feel about the amount of rewards given. If it is not fun why continue doing it? I came back from a road trip this weekend with some friends. All the way back I normally would have tried to convince them to join up and try it out as they are all gamers. I spoke about the voice acting and the storyline. But then I could not justify telling them to join as who knows what changes will happen to alter game mechanics and how fast they will come.

 

 

First the motivation goes away, everything else just follows.

[Kalolo]

I just don't pvp anymore. I started a new toon, waiting for my sub to run out of time (sad i trusted BW and took 6 months fee). I do'nt mind getting no reward for losing, but since 1.2 all the wz's i were involved, i never get a full team, always 6 vs 8, 4 vs 8 etc... Ur gonna tell me: "L2P, u mad brah, premade brah", but if its the goal to only do premades, why can we solo queue then, why no 8 men premade, why matching pugs with premades.

I like this game, but so much mistakes have been done. Just hope BW get their job done fast (no much faith left).

 

sorry for the bad english, french customer here.

[Maladon]

PvP just isn't very fun anymore. The damage is out of control and the CC is just stupid. I used to hang in there and at least get my commendations even if we were getting crushed, now there's no point. I'm not going to spend 10-15 minutes getting steamrolled by people with better gear unless there's a goal other than making the opposing team feel good about themselves.

 

I hit 50 a week or so before the patch and had gotten my expertise up to around 200 prior to 1.2. Now I'm sitting at 976 and I'm dying MUCH faster. It's just bizarre, almost like corporate sabotage, that this patch made it into the game.

 

The first GW2 beta weekend starts on the 27th. I wonder if I'll still feel like playing SWTOR the following Monday...

Edited April 18, 2012 by Maladon

[EndlessObsession]

I agree with what others have stated, that being that the fixes mentioned in the sticky post don't seem to address the real issue. I can't find the thread now, but one person hit the nail on the head. I think his name was BigRed (something). The reward from winning is just that... you WON. Valor should be based on solo performance, with a base minimum for actually staying until the end and doing SOMETHING. When you get steamrolled by a premade and actually stay to endure that humiliation, I feel you are more entitled than the winner to receive a fair amount of commendations. Valor since it's now "more of a prestige thing" should be the only reward that changes with a win or loss. Win or lose, I say give everyone 100 comms for a miminum of 1 medal. People who don't play well need gear too. Our time is just as important as the elitists jerks who don't work and get to play all day long, steamrolling the hard working players who's leisure time is very valuable to them. The changes they are supposedly going to release will do nothing to address this terrible system. I am so angry that the game I loved now gives me no reason to recommend it to my friends. Why? So they can get as angry and frustrated as I am? Sorry, not going to recommend this terrible experience to anyone. I went from wanting to cancel my pre-order of Diablo III (thinking I would never play it) to impatiently waiting for its arrival overnight with the release of 1.2.

 

To recap, the rewards system needs to give EQUAL Comms, credits, experience to all players... and a large valor bonus to the victors. This is the only way BW will dig themselves out of the gaping abyss of a hole that is 1.2.

 

Not that it matters when sized up to the massive issue with rewards, but damage bonus from expertise needs to be toned down a bit too. I agree healing bonus from expertise needed to be reduced, and damage increased slightly, but this was definitely overkill. I can't even imagine how fast people will blow up in rated with a full team of 8 focusing eachother down.

 

Like others have said, I almost exclusively PVP. I have probably spent 6 hours total raiding and the rest (hundreds upon hundreds of hours) PVPing. After leaving WoW, I thought I would never play a true MMORPG again until a friend introduced me to this game. I thought I would probably PVE primarily until I saw how fun PVP was, even if it was only 3 WZ's... I was willing to overlook the problems with Ilum because the few times where it was an even match... it was fun. A simple population cap and instancing the zone into several battles would have sufficed. It seems instead of polishing their product and making it shine, BW destroys it with a sledgehammer and starts building a completely different object. Please stop the sweeping changes that the vast majority of players agrees are ruining the game. As the old addage goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". 1.1.5 rewards system wasn't broke... why did you try to fix it?!?!?! If people are botting and afk'ing ( never have problems with this on my server), develop systems and software to detect them... don't ruin a system that most players enjoyed.

 

Words can not express my displeasure with the 1.2 PVP changes. All I can hope is that it is rectified to OUR satisfaction (NOT YOURS) by the time D3 comes out... lest I may be filling out that comments box and copying this post.

[EndlessObsession]

Also, I have noticed a HUGE decline in the amount of people PVP'ing on my server and a huge increase in the queue times. People hate the changes to expertise, the rewards system, AND the stupid long grind to get WH gear. I'm sure you all have noticed the same on your respective servers.

[GoldieGlockes]

POST 1.2 PvP for lvl 50 has changed for the worse in my opinion.

 

Time to fight in pvp is incredibly short, 5 seconds or less to kill someone. This isn't an fps.....

I think everyone wanted at least 20 seconds of combat before you die. Pre 1.2 I was able to 1v2 people on a sorc for about 30 seconds or more, and it was fun!

 

Recruit gear is a complete waste of credits...I bought a full set and it did nothing to improve the pvp situation. Even with some Battlemaster gear it doesn't make a difference of how long you will survive.

 

Now you fight someone cast 3 spells, get stunned and it's over. Is that how the game is supposed to be? Fast burst combat for pvp? I hope not.

 

I know Bioware that you're trying to fix the rewards and get that straightened out, but please fix the actual mechanics of the fighting!!!

 

aka: RE-WORK EXPERTISE PLEASE!!!!!!!

 

I think the dmg bonus for expertise needs to reduced, and an increase in the boost of damage reduction and healing.

 

Longer, more sustainable fights please!

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

ITT: Im not good at PvP b/c i PvE, but i want to be compensated with stinkier opponents because the AI's im used to playing are much easier than playing real people. If you dont conform to my needs i will quit.

 

Hmm... pretty sure PvP would be better off without people like this. Less players? Fine, but these are the same people with the same mentality as the ones theyre complaining about (the ones who leave losing WZs). Frankly, when people leave WZs early when we start losing, were better off without them because people who want to play come in and play. Most the time well end up winning. Better off just having these losers cancel their subs and never see them again or have them stick to PvE.

 

-fuzz

[gwrtheyn]

I just don't pvp anymore.

que times getting worse every day atm

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

(FYI, I still hate expertise and recommend getting rid of it. It causes much of the gear gap problem. The game would be better off without it.)

 

Im sure you would love to be able to come into WZ with your PvE gear and hang with BM/WH geared players. Stick to your PvE progression path and stop messing with ours

 

-fuzz

[Timadan]

The truth of the matter is the game should be enjoyable by everyone of the paying customers, in whatever manner they choose.

 

Pver's should be able to compete in pvp using the pve gear they chose to spend the majority of their time in game acquiring. At the same time Pvpr's should be able to do the hardest pve content in the game using the pvp gear they chose to spend the majority of their time in game acquiring.

 

For the life of me I can not understand how such a simple concept is both missed by the marketing team and the devs and shunned by both communities. It's truly baffling .

[Ahhmyface]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP. The theory behind PvP initially was that Players e.g. (for the most part) human beings are more challenging to beat than non-player characters.

 

The whole I MUST BE REWARDED FOR DOING EVERYTHING OR ELSE IT WAS NOT FUN + WASTE OF MY TIME is a direct hande-me-down from the brainwashed WoW generation.

 

You don't go to sports day, finish last in the 100m sprint and then ask why you didn't get a trophy. Or maybe you do?

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty sick of idiots talking about how pvp "isn't worth their time". PvPing is for fun.

[Recx]

In PvP victory is it's own reward. Kiilling, no slaughtering someones creation IS the reward of PvP.

I'd agree to a limited extent in that the fun you get from PVP should be more fulfilling than the "physical" rewards received from the completion of matches. My group of Conqueror and War Hero ranked players were PVPing every day even after we were completely geared. Not anymore though. Not because of any one thing, but because of so many bad things with this patch.

 

If you need rewards in order to have fun PvPing, you are not a PvPer. Period.

Essentially, that argument says, "If you need rewards to have fun in a game, you are not a gamer. Period." Uh... ok. I guess everybody is entitled to a unique opinion. Call it whatever you want, but I think it's more fulfilling to have both immediate rewards (the match itself) and rewards that you work towards (gear, titles, whatever).

[Sickboy_]

Yeah, I'm pretty sick of idiots talking about how pvp "isn't worth their time". PvPing is for fun.

 

PVE is for fun too. You shouldn't get any gear at all from PVE, or credits, or commendations. If that boss one shots you its not because you can't afford the gear or that the PVE system is horrible, its because you need more skillz, even though you have no way of acquiring more gear.

 

 

See how quick your logic crumbles?

[Ahhmyface]

The truth of the matter is the game should be enjoyable by everyone of the paying customers, in whatever manner they choose.

 

A simple concept, for sure, but a god awful horrible one. You are not going to get rewarded for spamming an emote 1000 times. Shoudl you be? Why not? Don't you want to reward all playstyles? I want to be rewarded for making 5 characters with similar names. Should I be? Have you any idea how dumb it is? Look. The developers have spent their time creating various goals for you to pursue. You can pursue them, and enjoy the perks they designed to reward them, but they do not, for one second, need to reward any random *** way you want to play.

 

I would be happy to see pvpers be able to mesh with pveers, but im not silly enough to think that literally EVERY playstyle is equally valid.

[zerosaint]

Yeah, I'm pretty sick of idiots talking about how pvp "isn't worth their time". PvPing is for fun.

 

You're right, competitive PVP is fun. What the problem is, is that to be competitive you now have to expend more effort than it's worth.

 

The people who got BM before the patch are fine. They have nothing to worry about. It's the fresh 50's who are screwed. Pre Patch I PVP'd just because I could make goals for myself and enjoy the match win or lose. Now it's "pray to get a good team that doesn't bail." There's no PVP now, it's luck of the draw if you aren't geared and premade.

[Ardim]

Yeah, I'm pretty sick of idiots talking about how pvp "isn't worth their time". PvPing is for fun.

 

And right now, it ISN'T fun. There's too much imbalance class-wise, faction-wise, and gear-wise.

 

You're right, competitive PVP is fun. What the problem is, is that to be competitive you now have to expend more effort than it's worth.

 

The people who got BM before the patch are fine. They have nothing to worry about. It's the fresh 50's who are screwed. Pre Patch I PVP'd just because I could make goals for myself and enjoy the match win or lose. Now it's "pray to get a good team that doesn't bail." There's no PVP now, it's luck of the draw if you aren't geared and premade.

 

This.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Ardim

[Ahhmyface]

PVE is for fun too. You shouldn't get any gear at all from PVE, or credits, or commendations. If that boss one shots you its not because you can't afford the gear or that the PVE system is horrible, its because you need more skillz, even though you have no way of acquiring more gear.

 

 

See how quick your logic crumbles?

 

You don't know the meaning of the word "logic".

Neither did I claim that rewards are a bad thing. It's just that they are not necessary.

If you don't enjoy pve, it doesn't matter what the rewards are. You're not having fun.

 

If you would quit having fun, because you don't get rewards, you're an idiot.

If it was never fun in the first place, well, glad you saw the light.

 

Getting rewards for losing is stupid. Get over it, bads.