This game badly needs mods and macros.

[Kurnea]

Yes I know how it works, go ahead and insult me again - Yes the information is already available if I am cc'ed by another player in the current user interface.

 

Yes the information is already available in a pre-cast sequence of a Boss getting ready to unload a massive aoe ability that needs to be avoided.

 

This information is already available.

 

I believe he was referring to the information that addons are working with through the api. When you kept saying things like "Bioware has no way of knowing what addons can do", it gives the impression you really don't understand what an addon api is.

 

Any functionality that addons are capable of, any information that they're working with, has to be provided through the api in the first place through use of service calls. If an addon tells you that a boss is about to cast something, that's because said addon is using a method or is handling an event that was delivered through the api.

 

In layman's terms, if the addon tells you something, it's because the game told the addon something. No information or functionality is possible without the api's cooperation. The more stringent the api, the less addons have to work with.

 

 

It is not currently displayed to us in big flashing red lights - loud noises - and bold text delivered across my screen. That is not the way BioWare intended me to perceive this combat situation.

 

If Bioware's api has service calls to tell you of different events and also has service calls to let addons display text with big, flashy lights and loud noises, it's implied they have no problem with people seeing it in that way.

 

Tell me, do you change anything from the default? Video, sound, keyboard customization, etc? I know I at least switched the action bar to change on Shift + bar number. An addon api just adds more options, options specifically allowed by Bioware.

 

Add-ons change that. Theytake the current information already available and alter the way we perceive it.

 

In video games - all we do is make reactive decisions based on the way we perceive things - we execute an action by pressing a button.

 

When my perception is HYPER STIMULATED by an over zealous UI - it makes my reaction time quicker..

 

When 3 individual combat actions are tied together in one button macros, it makes my execution faster.

 

This is what add-ons do. They simplify games.

 

When I use a Razer Naga to keybind all of my actions to my mouse instead of my keyboard, that simplifies the game. When I use Vent and listen for the raid leader to tell me what to do, that simplifies the game.

 

And those one button macros? Gamers can make custom macros with their OS or hardware that work regardless of the game. Have a rotation that comes down to 1,5,6,7 over and over? There are keyboards that let you bind that all to one hotkey.

[ageNtreachery]

Macros and mods are nice tools to have. Fact of the matter is that they're coming. It's inevitable if bioware wants to commit to their plan of churning out end game content or raids. Since bioware intends for this game to stay alive for a decent amount of time, you will most assuredly see them in the next patch or two.

 

Mods are not needed to raid if the raids are balanced around people having limited info.

In reality the better the devs control the environment the player is in the easier it is to balance so the more they limit the players ability to macro/mod/meter the raid the less grief they are giving themselves. If they are smart they will not start the sort of arms race we have seen between mod maker and raid devs in wow.

[Chewpaco]

I believe he was referring to the information that addons are working with through the api. When you kept saying things like "Bioware has no way of knowing what addons can do", it gives the impression you really don't understand what an addon api is.

 

Any functionality that addons are capable of, any information that they're working with, has to be provided through the api in the first place through use of service calls. If an addon tells you that a boss is about to cast something, that's because said addon is using a method or is handling an event that was delivered through the api.

 

In layman's terms, if the addon tells you something, it's because the game told the addon something. No information or functionality is possible without the api's cooperation. The more stringent the api, the less addons have to work with.

 

 

 

If Bioware's api has service calls to tell you of different events and also has service calls to let addons display text with big, flashy lights and loud noises, it's implied they have no problem with people seeing it in that way.

 

Tell me, do you change anything from the default? Video, sound, keyboard customization, etc? I know I at least switched the action bar to change on Shift + bar number. An addon api just adds more options, options specifically allowed by Bioware.

 

 

 

When I use a Razer Naga to keybind all of my actions to my mouse instead of my keyboard, that simplifies the game. When I use Vent and listen for the raid leader to tell me what to do, that simplifies the game.

 

And those one button macros? Gamers can make custom macros with their OS or hardware that work regardless of the game. Have a rotation that comes down to 1,5,6,7 over and over? There are keyboards that let you bind that all to one hotkey.

 

I never said that BioWare has no idea what an add-on can do.

 

I said Bioware has no idea which exactly are the most popular, what the player base seems to be gravitating to. When there are over 2000 add-ons available for WoW on curse.com

 

Some gimp the game for healers

Some gimp the game for tanks

Some gimp the game for rogues.

 

How can Devs test the way every single add-on displays the information to its' customers?

How can they test every single add-on for in game function and ease of execution by its players?

 

I repeat - all we do is make reactive decisions based on the way we perceive combat scenarios. When my perception is HYPER STIMULATED and slammed in my face and ears - I make quicker executions.

 

And I don't care what anyone says. I have played MMO's since 1998. And the one thing I know for certain about raid encounters, and pvp is that easier it is to perceive what is happening to me in an encounter, the easier it is to succeed.

[Darth_Mister]

I agreed with you until you said macros are not needed. You will hear from my attorney in the morning.

 

I would say I'm strongly against third party add-ons and very leary of macros.

 

I had two macros in WoW. One was for clucking to chickens to get the vanity pet and the other was a monster face I used when the team I was on won a battleground. I had five 85's, played WoW from day one, Nov. 2004, and had defeated everything through Lich King and was just starting hard modes in Cata when I left. Through all that time, I never needed to use a single macro for any of my characters.

 

My question would be, what would you want to macro in SWTOR?

[Canuck_TwnTNN]

While a scalable UI would be nice, I vote a heartfelt and absolute...

 

NO TO MACROS!

Game's easy enough as it is without being able to programme key sequences to make it easier.

 

Just No.

 

Cheers!

No_2_Macros_Canuck

[Chewpaco]

I would say I'm strongly against third party add-ons and very leary of macros.

 

I had two macros in WoW. One was for clucking to chickens to get the vanity pet and the other was a monster face I used when the team I was on won a battleground. I had five 85's, played WoW from day one, Nov. 2004, and had defeated everything through Lich King and was just starting hard modes in Cata when I left. Through all that time, I never needed to use a single macro for any of my characters.

 

My question would be, what would you want to macro in SWTOR?

 

People want to macro a reactive skill of the GCD with every other basic skill they have. Therfor getting 2 or 3 combat moves with the push of 1 button.

 

People want to macro mouseover targeting to make healing a 1 step process, instead of a 2 step process.

 

They want crutches - time savers, which in essence, are performance enhancers.

 

That's my new name for add-ons. I will never refer to an add-on again as an add-on.

 

They are performance enhancers. Viagra for gamers with floppy ones

Edited December 22, 2011 by Chewpaco

[Kurnea]

I never said that BioWare has no idea what an add-on can do.

 

I said Bioware has no idea which exactly are the most popular, what the player base seems to be gravitating to. When there are over 2000 add-ons available for WoW on curse.com

 

Some gimp the game for healers

Some gimp the game for tanks

Some gimp the game for rogues.

 

Knowing which adons people are using seems irrelevant when they know the api that any one of those addons is using. Regardless of how many addons are out there, all they have to do is take into account the u.i. they all use. If they find that any addon is more powerful than they intended, simply alter the api to break that addon.

How can Devs test the way every single add-on displays the information to its' customers?

How can they test every single add-on for in game function and ease of execution by its players?

 

They don't have to test every single addon when they ultimately know what those addons are capable through the api. You're still arguing as if addons are able to do things that the developers shouldn't already be aware of.

 

I repeat - all we do is make reactive decisions based on the way we perceive combat scenarios. When my perception is HYPER STIMULATED and slammed in my face and ears - I make quicker executions.

 

I repeat, if the api allows you to be HYPER STIMULATED in the first place, it's because Bioware's ok with that happening. If an addon does something, it's because the game gave it that functionality in the first place.

And I don't care what anyone says. I have played MMO's since 1998. And the one thing I know for certain about raid encounters, and pvp is that easier it is to perceive what is happening to me in an encounter, the easier it is to succeed.

 

So you think it's better to gimp your capablity however possible through lack of options?

[Darth_Mister]

They are performance enhancers. Viagra for gamers with floppy ones

Is no facet of our society immune from performacing enhancing drugs? I think we need a Congressional hearing to get to the bottom of this online epidemic. We may need to implement a random screening process to deter the usage of such performance enhancing drugs that seek to create an unbalanced playing field.

[Bregah]

I agree UI is horrendous.

 

 

Just echoing this.

 

There is a very good reason certain mods for WoW are extremely popular - they fix/improve bad UI choices/implementations by Blizzard.

 

Bioware seems to have made many of the exact same choices that Blizzard did (7 years ago), but not given us the ability to fix/improve them.

[Chewpaco]

Knowing which adons people are using seems irrelevant when they know the api that any one of those addons is using. Regardless of how many addons are out there, all they have to do is take into account the u.i. they all use. If they find that any addon is more powerful than they intended, simply alter the api to break that addon.

 

 

They don't have to test every single addon when they ultimately know what those addons are capable through the api. You're still arguing as if addons are able to do things that the developers shouldn't already be aware of.

 

 

 

I repeat, if the api allows you to be HYPER STIMULATED in the first place, it's because Bioware's ok with that happening. If an addon does something, it's because the game gave it that functionality in the first place.

 

 

So you think it's better to gimp your capablity however possible through lack of options?

 

When you fight a boss in SWTOR right now - Does big flytext come across your screen flashing to tell you to move? Nope. That isn't level of difficulty that BioWare intended.

 

They want you to notice the Boss's hands glowing as your indicator to move. Or a graphic circle they put on the ground indicating where the danger will be.

 

Performance Enhancers translate these things to us at a Kindergarten level. Sorry - I don't want to play games this way.

 

You have to admit. The indicators that are currently in the game during a boss fight, are the indicators that BioWare intended us to see, correct?

 

Any additional indicators would make the game easier, correct?

 

I am not gimping my capability - I am simply choosing to not use Performance Enahcners.

[Chewpaco]

Just echoing this.

 

There is a very good reason certain mods for WoW are extremely popular - they fix/improve bad UI choices/implementations by Blizzard.

 

Bioware seems to have made many of the exact same choices that Blizzard did (7 years ago), but not given us the ability to fix/improve them.

 

No Mr. President, I never took Star-Roids.

 

EDIT** Quoted wrong person, sorry Bregah

Edited December 22, 2011 by Chewpaco

[sophomoreslump]

Crutches. That's what I see people asking for. It seems like players need big text popping up in the middle of the screen, or an out of place voice yelling "RUN AWAY" in order to understand a fight and react accordingly.

 

I haven't seen a fight yet that doesn't have some kind of visual queue that a special attack is about to happen, be it a cast bar on the enemy, a big arse circle or icon on the ground, or some glowing/electrical/explosive emission from the enemy itself. The reliance on third party, Curse downloads to provide dummied down text, parsed directly from the combat log, and plastered on the screen in order to coax a player to do the right thing is ignorant.

 

I used to think healing in WoW was challenging and only the best players could pull it off, then I messed around with Healbot and realized any scrub can heal. All of those "great" healers suddenly had the curtain pulled back and it became clear they weren't anything special, just users of a crutch. Now I see folks wanting their mouse over healing crutch in this game. Is healing a four person party really that hard? I don't even like playing healer classes, but during my months full beta testing I had zero difficulty healing with a smuggler and a mage in any and all situations, Flashpoints, Heroics, 16 players World Boss kills. It's just not that hard.

 

I'm all for BW allowing resizing of the UI and more freedom to move bars and boxes around, but third party addons and macros need not ever be entertained.

 

This could have done without the first third paragraphs.

 

Something like DBM isn't needed, and honestly encourages poor situational awareness. Something that allows for complete visual customization of unit frames/action bars/buffs/debuffs/cast bars also isn't needed but they would be REALLY, REALLY nice and would go a long way to making the gameplay experience more enjoyable for a lot of people. Isn't enjoyment the primary reason we all play games?

 

It's not about crutches, it's about options.

Edited December 22, 2011 by sophomoreslump

[Casandra]

It's not about crutches, it's about options.

 

I think the concern is introducing mechanics that sacrifice the integrity of the environment and situational challenge.

 

Should there be options? Yes.

 

The challenge of the game should not be the interface and usability, it should be the environment and the situation.

 

That said, the two are inherhantly intertwined in some ways. So I would say it's crucial to provide ways of gauging your own play ability, your access to your abilities, and your ability to see what is happening, without overstepping the bounds into hacking the game and removing the environment or situational challenge.

 

I believe Darth Mister's statement of 'crutches' to be quite well defined and relevant in that light.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Casandra

[Hanscholo]

please dont put mods in this game. WoW never needed it, this doesnt need it. I just want to focus on playing and enjoying it rather than having to become skilled in its structure.

[Casandra]

please dont put mods in this game. WoW never needed it, this doesnt need it. I just want to focus on playing and enjoying it rather than having to become skilled in its structure.

 

Well spoken.

 

I believe the main concerns can be address BY Bioware within the current user interface, anyway. And quite simply.

 

Optional things like:

• Simple tools like counters (to check self-playability)
  
• Ability bar scaling & movement/additions (for accessability)
  
• Target observation (being able to see who your targets are targeting)
  

 

 

I don't know if anyone saw any of the class versus videos, but it looked like the ability bar scaling/movement is actually already possible.

 

All of those options could be added without the need for interface over-complication.

[Arkimor]

please dont put mods in this game. WoW never needed it, this doesnt need it. I just want to focus on playing and enjoying it rather than having to become skilled in its structure.

 

What?

 

It sounds like you were just lazy in dealing with mods, and overwhelmed so easily that, to you, the best solution is to get rid of them all together.

 

Jesus Christ.

 

The only people who DON'T want mods in this game are those that are easily confused by simple things and are too lazy to set aside some time for themselves to better their own game.

[Rakaz]

Addons can only do as much as the developers allows them to do through the API. That is all they can do. Everything an addon can do is intended by the devs, there are some cases when they miss something and have to make changes to the API so that a certain addon will no longer function. But addons can only work as long as they have the devs approval.

 

I cant understand how people can form such strong opinions against addons without actually understanding how limited addons actually are in MMO's. They are not bots or hacks, have nothing in common with bots or hacks because while addons are developed by a third party, an addon can never break the rules of the game.

[Vincethejedi]

MouseOver Macros must be available at some point. I don't know any healers who are going to put up with clicking twice to heal one target. That is not efficient, and it's not fun.

 

Healer keyboard rotations will be a nightmare without macros....I'm not understanding the anti-macro QQ. If you're not a healer, you shouldn't get a vote IMO.

 

Macros are also essential for everyone who doesn't use their mouse cursor to click their spells (Good players). In general, there simply is not enough room on the actionbars for all of your spells to be in 1-6 and SHIFT 1-6 (Easily accessible range)

 

The anti-Macro crowd here is really shocking, I never even knew it was a debate. I thought it was common knowledge that MMO macro = GOOD... clumsily clicking buttons on your actionbar = bad.

[Stejo]

I can't believe this thing is under debate, I just can't grasp it. I understand this is the internet and you can find any sort of crazies around but really? There are actually people in this world, capable of reading and typing that think that an MMO can be functional without macros, addons and UI customization?

 

There are really people in this thread defending it. My mind is blown. You get what you deserve I guess.

[Ragingtortoise]

The UI does need to be redone. I hate not being able to resize and move things around, especially not being able to have as many things open as I want because of it.

 

Damage meters don't need to be like in WoW, but I'd love to have one that just showed my DPS and only my DPS to appease the people who cry unfair at the thought of a damage meter. Then it isn't about the numbers to compare everyone else to, it just lets me see how I'm doing, me, myself, nobody else. It wouldn't turn the game into a spreadsheet, and anyone who doesn't want them because they think that it would shouldn't be concerned with it anyways, if the meter only shows the user of the meter's dps, then they don't have to use it, and shouldn't be concerned about it if someone else is.

[Truga]

MouseOver Macros must be available at some point. I don't know any healers who are going to put up with clicking twice to heal one target. That is not efficient, and it's not fun.

 

Healer keyboard rotations will be a nightmare without macros....I'm not understanding the anti-macro QQ. If you're not a healer, you shouldn't get a vote IMO.

 

Macros are also essential for everyone who doesn't use their mouse cursor to click their spells (Good players). In general, there simply is not enough room on the actionbars for all of your spells to be in 1-6 and SHIFT 1-6 (Easily accessible range)

 

The anti-Macro crowd here is really shocking, I never even knew it was a debate. I thought it was common knowledge that MMO macro = GOOD... clumsily clicking buttons on your actionbar = bad.

 

I just wanted to say that, I am against all kinds of mods, and all but the simplest macros.

 

I currently play a healer. I find it fun. If you find WoW more fun, I suggest you go back to that game. It really is as simple as that.

[Dropadeuce]

The only people who DON'T want mods in this game are those that are easily confused by simple things and are too lazy to set aside some time for themselves to better their own game.

 

The same can be said about people who WANT mods.

[Valkyran]

OK. 1 simple thing: enable macros and addons. If you want to use them, fine. If you don't want to, fine. End of topic.

 

Now everyone "should" be satisfied.

 

I mean, there are schools, washrooms and McDonald's everywhere. If you don't want to use any of them, fine, it's your business. Anyone else who wants to, fine. You can't just block access to something to everyone just because you don't want to use it.

[Valkyran]

Macros. Edited December 22, 2011 by Valkyran

[Valkyran]

I just wanted to say that, I am against all kinds of mods, and all but the simplest macros.

 

I currently play a healer. I find it fun. If you find WoW more fun, I suggest you go back to that game. It really is as simple as that.

 

It is not a matter of to WoW or not to WoW. In fact, it has nothing to do with it. People should be able to play the way they like. If you hate macros and addons that much, well, just don't use them. And if you hate them so much, just find peoples who share the same tastes as you and just play with them.

 

And if there are so many of you peoples, well, just ask Bioware to create a "Macro and addon disabled" server.