Exclusive? Um...

[Counterintel]

I never threw the 'go outside' argument, you can do what you want, including arguing your perspective here, who am I to stop you! However if the crystals aren't actually the same, by logic, your argument falls flat. Simple as.

 

The above is 'the letter' of the law of this situation. This is the technical reality. At the end of the day, they are different.

 

But they are VERY VERY difficult to tell apart. There are many opinions from different perspectives, which will determine how an individual feels about this scenario. This is not a matter of fact (little on forums is), its a matter of perspective.

 

If you're of a literal perspective, as the quoted above, there is no issue. Different items, different availability, not impeding on 'unique' tag. Nothing to complain about

 

If you're of a realistic point of view, you likely think they're similar enough that it isn't in fact kosher for them to do this.

 

If you're a person who bought the white crystal, a razer product, and pre ordered the CE for all of the 'unobtainable' goodies therein, you likely fully agree with the OP.

 

If you're a Lulwut MMO co#*sucker you probably said something like "WHATEVER DOUCHE ITS A COLOR. GET OVER IT. HOLD ON I HAVE TO REGISTER FOR THE NEXT FOTM MMO AND GO BE A D*#$&EAD ON THEIR FORUMS NOW", and in that case i dont care about your opinion, as I hope you get a kidneystone and pass it through YOUR EYES.

 

I did the exact same thing as the OP regarding the mouse. I prefer other mice to naga because naga are too small for my hands and make my thumb hurt. (Naga Hex LOOKS F*$&@#^ TIGHT but dammit if I didnt just buy a 100 dollar mouse) But i liked the tor swag look and the crystal. I did really want the crystal.

 

I ended up with a non razer mouse. However, had i bought it I would feel just like the OP.

 

Its 'technically a different color', but so are the colors 66CC33 and 66CC00 (hex colors google a hex color chart), but god help me, I cant tell the difference when they're not next to each other.

 

Legally, technically, officially, they did nothing wrong. In reality though, they did. I do agree with the OP.

 

In a rarely seen event on forums, I see both sides of the issue and understand both. I respect the literal side (it is reality afterall) but I simply disagree with it.

 

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[Blurr]

You're the one arguing semantics, as you are putting it forth that different does not mean "not the same." I will agree that there are varying degrees of difference. But to say that a difference does not exist or is insignificant is asinine. If the difference was insignificant, I'd be right on your side. But the healthy human eye can see, very clearly, that they are different. With no assistance. If it were insignificant, we wouldn't be able to detect said difference biologically.

 

If the Razer crystal was called "Olive-black," and it very well could be, would you still be rallying against the Rakghoul crystal?

 

Sorry but the difference is indeed insignificant. The problem is they're both clearly black-green. They're both called black-green. They look the same, enough that some people are confused.

 

What's worse, is that you're apparently okay with this type of bait-and-switch tactic. Do you think they could get away with this if it was a PvP-only crystal? Of course not!

[Kirjava]

Sorry but the difference is indeed insignificant. The problem is they're both clearly black-green. They're both called black-green. They look the same, enough that some people are confused.

 

What's worse, is that you're apparently okay with this type of bait-and-switch tactic. Do you think they could get away with this if it was a PvP-only crystal? Of course not!

 

Didn't they do that with the purple and cyan crystals? Both are available now on the fleet, as well as cyan being a different shade of blue, and in all honesty, that hasn't bothered me that they changed that up.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Kirjava

[Thaed]

Took one just for you. The duller, more yellow is the Razer. The bright green is the Rakghoul.

 

Thanks. Not sure which I like better, but I'll prbobly buy the mouse at some point anyway.

 

Also, that screenshot definately shows that they're different.

[Blurr]

And the Razer colour is still unique to the Razer crystal, in any case. The Rakghoul colour is a lot brighter and more bold.

 

Here's another shot. Their similarity all depends on lighting and proximity.

 

They're identical enough for it to be a slap in the face to Razer owners. That much is clear to anyone.

[CelCawdro]

Sorry but the difference is indeed insignificant. The problem is they're both clearly black-green. They're both called black-green. They look the same, enough that some people are confused.

 

What's worse, is that you're apparently okay with this type of bait-and-switch tactic. Do you think they could get away with this if it was a PvP-only crystal? Of course not!

 

Again, if you want to argue semantics and deal with terminology, at least get it right. The Razer crystal colour is called, specifically, "Razer Green Color Crystal." Not "black-green." Likewise, I often confuse magenta for red and cyan for blue at a glance, particularly when there is no other colour in the vicinity for comparison. It doesn't mean that they're "the same" or that the difference is "insignificant."

 

Likewise, learn what a bait-and-switch is before you bandy about the terminology. For someone so set on arguing semantics, you are very imprecise in your selection of vocabulary.

 

Again, for comparison: clearly different.

Edited April 17, 2012 by CelCawdro

[CelCawdro]

Here's another shot. Their similarity all depends on lighting and proximity.

 

They're identical enough for it to be a slap in the face to Razer owners. That much is clear to anyone.

 

That entire area is bathed in green light. Of course they're going to look similar. But I can still see the obvious differences. May as well throw a screenshot of blue and cyan lightsabers against Tatooine's sky together and claim that they are the same.

 

I own the Razer crystal. And my face remains unslapped (most overused term on MMO forums), as I actually looked into the issue and indeed changed my stance when I saw the clear differences.

 

Edit: I was right there with the complainers when I saw the first Rakghoul crystal and was ready to raise a storm along with everyone else. But then I compared crystals. And saw that my anger was misplaced. Unlike most people on the internet, though, I can freely change my mind about something and won't argue against something that is obviously correct just because I want to support my first kneejerk reaction.

Edited April 17, 2012 by CelCawdro

[Blurr]

Again, if you want to argue semantics and deal with terminology, at least get it right. The Razer crystal colour is called, specifically, "Razer Green Color Crystal." Not "black-green." Likewise, I often confuse magenta for red and cyan for blue at a glance, particularly when there is no other colour in the vicinity for comparison. It doesn't mean that they're "the same" or that the difference is "insignificant."

 

Likewise, learn what a bait-and-switch is before you bandy about the terminology. For someone so set on arguing semantics, you are very imprecise in your selection of vocabulary.

 

Again, for comparison: clearly different.

 

Once again you are wrong.

 

You just prove my point. Depending on lighting and proximity and what else is in the area, they look identical. Even outside, they look similar enough to be a slap in the face. Just because you're drinking the kool-aid doesn't mean it's not happening.

[Kirjava]

Once again you are wrong.

 

You just prove my point. Depending on lighting and proximity and what else is in the area, they look identical. Even outside, they look similar enough to be a slap in the face. Just because you're drinking the kool-aid doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

He's not wrong, they look different in both pictures. Also if your talking about the naming of crystals your arguing semantics. Both crystals are named differently, so his argument still stands.

 

Stop straw manning the argument and even failing at that.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Kirjava

[CelCawdro]

Once again you are wrong.

 

You just prove my point. Depending on lighting and proximity and what else is in the area, they look identical. Even outside, they look similar enough to be a slap in the face. Just because you're drinking the kool-aid doesn't mean it's not happening.

 

In this case, we both seem to be right regarding the naming. Even so, the name is just semantic and ultimately doesn't matter when presented with the physical (virtual) manifestation of the colour. Likewise, just the fact that you can get confused depending on lighting doesn't mean a thing. You could make the same mistake with any combination of the black-[colour] or white-[colour] crystals, given enough lighting. That doesn't mean that they're "the same."

 

They are all demonstrably different. Even if you can get confused, that doesn't change. Even the Razer and Rakghoul crystals.

 

And again, stop cherry picking your responses. Either respond to the whole of my posts or none of them. Likewise, explain your analogy. It makes no sense, particularly in this context.

Edited April 17, 2012 by CelCawdro

[Blurr]

In this case, we both seem to be right regarding the naming. Even so, the name is just semantic and ultimately doesn't matter when presented with the physical (virtual) manifestation of the colour. Likewise, just the fact that you can get confused depending on lighting doesn't mean a thing. You could make the same mistake with any combination of the black-[colour] or white-[colour] crystals, given enough lighting. That doesn't mean that they're "the same."

 

They are all demonstrably different. Even if you can get confused, that doesn't change. Even the Razer and Rakghoul crystals.

 

And again, stop cherry picking your responses. Either respond to the whole of my posts or none of them. Likewise, explain your analogy. It makes no sense, particularly in this context.

 

Look dude, I'm not gonna bother explaining stuff to you over and over again.

 

The long and the short of it is I, and many other people, have a problem with this. If you don't have a problem with this, that's up to you, but don't tell us we're wrong. Let the devs deal with us, since they're the ones that give the rulings.

 

If you can't even see how we could have a problem with this, then you're unwilling to have a proper discourse on the matter, and feel free to leave the conversation.

[CelCawdro]

Look dude, I'm not gonna bother explaining stuff to you over and over again.

 

The long and the short of it is I, and many other people, have a problem with this. If you don't have a problem with this, that's up to you, but don't tell us we're wrong. Let the devs deal with us, since they're the ones that give the rulings.

 

If you can't even see how we could have a problem with this, then you're unwilling to have a proper discourse on the matter, and feel free to leave the conversation.

 

You refer to "proper discourse" after dubbing me a troll and repeatedly simply stating "you are wrong" without backing yourself up. That is not proper discourse, and I have not lowered myself to ad hominem attacks. I have merely presented evidence that is contrary to your claims and arguments to support that evidence. If you cannot refute both the evidence and the argument, feel free to concede the debate.

 

Saying, "Well, even though I can't argue against you, I'm still going to hold on to my unsupported opinion and lots of people agree with me, so you should just leave," doesn't work on me. As I stated, I had the same kneejerk negative reaction to the Rakghoul crystal when I first saw it. Before complaining in public, however, I actually took time to compare for myself. And found that my initial reaction was incorrect.

 

I realize that this is the internet, and it is difficult to admit that your argument is either incorrect or simply unsupportable. Heaven forbid one actually changes their stance! But at the very least you can state,

 

"Yes, I realize the Razer and Rakghoul colours are different. However, the Rakghoul colour is too close to my special, unique item for comfort. Although my item remains distinct and unique, I dislike that the new item resembles it, even if not identically. I humbly ask that BioWare changes these one or both of these crystals to make them more distinct from each other."

 

That is how a constructive criticism works. That is the way to get a developer's attention. That is the way to get a change. Coming to the forums and saying "YOU LIED TO US! BAIT AND SWITCH!" isn't likely to get you where you want to be.

Edited April 17, 2012 by CelCawdro

[Kiregean]

All of you defending Bioware/EA, just stop. Since you all want to argue it's 1% different lets go on a legal basis. Take copyrights and trademarks for instance, they must be changed AT MINIMUM 30% for it to be considered a different item. They have changed the saturation by a few mere points (And trust me, I do digital imaging for a profession so I know this for a fact). This by itself means that they failed to make it a different product.

 

Regardless they advertise a "Unique colour crystal" still to this day and provide one of sufficient similarity to everyone else, this by nature negates the crystal's uniqueness and constitutes fall advertising.

 

End of story, full stop.

 

And to those who wish to debate legality with me... Feel free, I'll be glad to quote every article, sub-section, memorandum, statute, and paragraph just to show you that you are outmatched and outsmarted.

[CelCawdro]

All of you defending Bioware/EA, just stop. Since you all want to argue it's 1% different lets go on a legal basis. Take copyrights and trademarks for instance, they must be changed AT MINIMUM 30% for it to be considered a different item. They have changed the saturation by a few mere points (And trust me, I do digital imaging for a profession so I know this for a fact). This by itself means that they failed to make it a different product.

 

Regardless they advertise a "Unique colour crystal" still to this day and provide one of sufficient similarity to everyone else, this by nature negates the crystal's uniqueness and constitutes fall advertising.

 

End of story, full stop.

 

And to those who wish to debate legality with me... Feel free, I'll be glad to quote every article, sub-section, memorandum, statute, and paragraph just to show you that you are outmatched and outsmarted.

 

By that definition, the mere fact that the Rakghoul crystal produces a lightsaber blade makes it "infringe" upon the Razer crystals. But in any case, your particular definition simply does not apply given that there is no infringement taking place, given that both designs are owned by BioWare and that it is nigh impossible to measure difference in colour empirically.

[Dekai]

This is why you don't purchase a product to receive an in-game item. You get upset since the 'Bonus' could be made insignificant at a later date or replaced entirely.

 

If anyone purchased one of the extremely inferior and poorly made TOR Razor products just due to a Color Crystal... Well, I can do nothing but laugh, sorry.

 

Though to counter my statement, the mouse does seem pretty well constructed and responds well. The headphones are cheaply made and designed, and the keyboard is as well. You'd have been better off with a wireless headset from other manufacturers that offer 40-50mm speakers with superior sound quality for just $10 more, or a nice mechanical keyboard from Ducky, Das or even Razors Black Widow which is better then the TOR one.

 

Bottom line, it's a bonus. You get what you paid for, nothing. You paid for the product, not the crystal.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Dekai

[Blurr]

By that definition, the mere fact that the Rakghoul crystal produces a lightsaber blade makes it "infringe" upon the Razer crystals. But in any case, your particular definition simply does not apply given that there is no infringement taking place, given that both designs are owned by BioWare and that it is nigh impossible to measure difference in colour empirically.

 

Actually he's got a point. There are two facets to the desirability of the crystal. The uniqueness of the colour, and the stat boost it provides. Since the stat boost is identical completely, that is a non-issue.

 

The issue is, therefore, the colour. Since the colours are clearly minimally different at best, it would clearly fall in the realm of infringement, were this a legal case.

 

You can claim that your opinions are facts all day long, but that doesn't make them true, either. You haven't refuted anything, yourself.

 

It's clear you're unwilling to consider the position of the other side, so what's the point of talking to you?

[CelCawdro]

Actually he's got a point. There are two facets to the desirability of the crystal. The uniqueness of the colour, and the stat boost it provides. Since the stat boost is identical completely, that is a non-issue.

 

The issue is, therefore, the colour. Since the colours are clearly minimally different at best, it would clearly fall in the realm of infringement, were this a legal case.

 

You can claim that your opinions are facts all day long, but that doesn't make them true, either. You haven't refuted anything, yourself.

 

It's clear you're unwilling to consider the position of the other side, so what's the point of talking to you?

 

Again, stop cherry-picking and respond to my response to you, and I will continue to respond to yours. Of course, that's not likely to happen as you seem to think that the "you disagree with me so just stop talking"-route is a legitimate stance to take.

 

Also, if we were to take his definition as legitimate, the yellow-black and blue-black crystal would infringe as well. Three primary colours. 33.33~% each of of the colour wheel. The Razer crystal falls between the blue and yellow catergories, thus well within that 30% he refers to. Pre-orderers should be calling for your heads for infringing upon their yellow!

Edited April 17, 2012 by CelCawdro

[Cerion]

Look dude, I'm not gonna bother explaining stuff to you over and over again.

 

The long and the short of it is I, and many other people, have a problem with this. If you don't have a problem with this, that's up to you, but don't tell us we're wrong. Let the devs deal with us, since they're the ones that give the rulings.

 

If you can't even see how we could have a problem with this, then you're unwilling to have a proper discourse on the matter, and feel free to leave the conversation.

 

 

You're wrong.

 

As far as I can tell, he is having a proper discourse with you. He is winning that discourse, and you don't like it because you've invested emotionally into your position and can't admit being wrong.

 

The colors ARE different. Razer owners have no right to all hues of green in perpetuity. One of the saber blades is clearly yellowish-green, and the other is more of an electric green.

[Kiregean]

Your argument that you get what you pay for fails, I've shown (MANY TIMES might I add) that they increased the price on all said items by $10 to $30 each (including a mousepad which is $15 more than their exact same one without the SW:ToR branding). This means we paid extra for the identical product; not only that but the crystal is advertised not as bonus (which would give credence to your argument) but as a boxed addition to said product.

 

Now with this being said, regardless that they changed the saturation ratio a meager amount they still gave away an item that we paid for to others for free and are guilty of false advertising. One of three things can happen here, they can change the colour and make it unique again, they can compensate the person(s) who purchased the SW:ToR products for the excess price, or they can ignore it and we can take it to the Better Business Bureau for false advertising which if enough reports were filed would result in EA/Bioware losing accreditation and would tarnish their business.

 

Frankly it's an underhanded and reprehensible business practice to fragrantly lie/mislead customers and should be stopped here before they do worse. Imagine if a month down the road they decided to send out a Darth Malgus statue to everyone who signed up; it may be physical as opposed to virtual but the correlation is the same. They would be giving away a item which they sold to others for free.

 

EDIT: Also if any of you'd like to debate that it's included as a bonus, I still possess all of my product boxes and can post pictures at request showing that it no where says "Bonus" it merely says "Unlock a unique colour crystal" so claiming that it is a perk is null and void.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Kiregean

[xTekwarx]

And I'm bac- Wow, get back from dinner for an hour and a half, and bantha poodo hits the fan.

 

Before we continue this...can everyone PLEASE take a deep breath? This is getting pretty heated for something that should be calm. (MY RAGE THREAD! ONLY I GET TO RAGE!)

[CelCawdro]

Your argument that you get what you pay for fails, I've shown (MANY TIMES might I add) that they increased the price on all said items by $10 to $30 each (including a mousepad which is $15 more than their exact same one without the SW:ToR branding). This means we paid extra for the identical product; not only that but the crystal is advertised not as bonus (which would give credence to your argument) but as a boxed addition to said product.

 

Now with this being said, regardless that they changed the saturation ratio a meager amount they still gave away an item that we paid for to others for free and are guilty of false advertising. One of three things can happen here, they can change the colour and make it unique again, they can compensate the person(s) who purchased the SW:ToR products for the excess price, or they can ignore it and we can take it to the Better Business Bureau for false advertising which if enough reports were filed would result in EA/Bioware losing accreditation and would tarnish their business.

 

Frankly it's an underhanded and reprehensible business practice to fragrantly lie/mislead customers and should be stopped here before they do worse. Imagine if a month down the road they decided to send out a Darth Malgus statue to everyone who signed up; it may be physical as opposed to virtual but the correlation is the same. They would be giving away a item which they sold to others for free.

 

It is still clearly different and unique. Just because it is too similar for your comfort level does not make them identical. You can trivialize the difference all you want, but that doesn't make it go away. Likewise, if you have an issue, there is no need to sensationalize it. Just be honest with both yourself and BioWare, express a concern that they are similar, and request a change.

 

Calling them reprehensible and underhanded liars is not going to help your cause.

[CelCawdro]

And I'm bac- Wow, get back from dinner for an hour and a half, and bantha poodo hits the fan.

 

Before we continue this...can everyone PLEASE take a deep breath? This is getting pretty heated for something that should be calm. (MY RAGE THREAD! ONLY I GET TO RAGE!)

 

No rage on this front. Although my unwillingness to descend into a rage rumble seems to be raising the blood pressure of a few people here, unfortunately. I only argue the issue, I do not attempt to discredit the person (although I may hypothesize about their motivations). Ad hominem arguments do no win debates.

[Kiregean]

Trust me, I did address Bioware, they merely closed the thread and dismissed the tickets. This is why I bring it to the forums.

[xTekwarx]

Trust me, I did address Bioware, they merely closed the thread and dismissed the tickets. This is why I bring it to the forums.

 

 

If you haven't already Kiregean. I advise contacting both Bioware and Razer on the issue as well. Regardless of if people agree, or disagree with your or other's opinion. No matter the issue they NEED to make a statement on this. (I've already put in an email through the contact forum, in game ticket, and email to Razer support.)

[xTekwarx]

No rage on this front. Although my unwillingness to descend into a rage rumble seems to be raising the blood pressure of a few people here, unfortunately. I only argue the issue, I do not attempt to discredit the person (although I may hypothesize about their motivations). Ad hominem arguments do no win debates.

 

Wins political debates. Hahah, ha, ha...oh god its true.

 

 

Anyway, that's good. Bah, they should have just given a title with the headset/mouse/keyboard, like "The collector" or "The rich" or..."The Cutte-" Oh dear, that one might have causes some problems...but I mean, "razer" >_> is a fitting name...(No one yell at me please! It's an innocent joke!)

Edited April 17, 2012 by xTekwarx