Still after 1.2 Patch: SHOCK > project

[Manifeste]

I'd just like Shock and Project to be equal, and it can keep the current delay as a class mechanic allowing Inquisitors and Shadows to line up burst damage...

Add the delay to Shock.

 

Make the shock animation show then charging it up in their hand and then launching it so that it takes the same time to hit the target as project does.

 

This will allow Assassins to set up the spike damage that Shadows can do, and balances the ability for both classes in situations where you might've wanted the damage to be instant.

[Vogdanos]

I don't think you understand, just because your project is delayed doesn't make it more burst... Its the same damage over two GCD's only its a huge disadvantage in the fact that it can be "dodged" by any stealth player that has their in combat stealth up. Unlike Shock which cannot be dodged.

 

I used to think it wasn't a big deal until my rocks started floating around me time after time because the operative just disappeared when he saw my animation start.

 

One of two things need to happen for both equal and truly mirrored classes and to negate the GCD "cheat"... either make shock have the same delay and relabel the skills to say that, or give shadows truly instant damage. (possibly requiring a reworking of an animation, because i can see the QQ the rock followed me while i was invisible and they found me, or something to that effect)

 

just my .02

[Dyvim]

Really? You assume I have never seen any of the movies. I guess being there at the premier of Star Wars in 1977 disqualifies me. Furthermore, does owning all of the movies count for or against me? What about the number of novels I have read. One that I particularly loved, "I, Jedi," was a good yarn. Does that mean I have no knowledge of the Star Wars universe? I guess, what it really boils down to my opinion differs from yours, which means I have no knowledge of what is or is not in the universe.

 

Your post made that assumption for you. It is not opinion. It is pure hard fact. How many times do sith throw objects at targets in the six movies...about 20. How many times do jedi...ONCE if you even want to count Yoda throwing one BACK. THREE times if you want to count Anakin doing a vader preview, which I dont for obvious reasons. Those are FACTS.

 

BTW I was there in '77 as well, too bad you dont find a copy/pasted reskinned inq masquerading as a jedi class, whose signature skills are junk throwing, as offensive as I do. Why dont you watch those movies again and THINK about it, and do a little counting and perhaps you will come around.

[Dyvim]

I'd just like Shock and Project to be equal, and it can keep the current delay as a class mechanic allowing Inquisitors and Shadows to line up burst damage...

Add the delay to Shock.

 

Make the shock animation show then charging it up in their hand and then launching it so that it takes the same time to hit the target as project does.

 

This will allow Assassins to set up the spike damage that Shadows can do, and balances the ability for both classes in situations where you might've wanted the damage to be instant.

 

I keep seeing this, and tbh, I find it incredibly stupid. People already find the game sluggish with the GCD. Clearly the way to go is to make skills MORE RESPONSIVE, not less. The Force Wave delay drives me nuts. If you start adding delays to Inq's WHY NOT EVERYONE??? Why not start adding more delays to everyones instant skills...charging animations for blasters, etc. BTW there is already a charging lightning skill....its called lightning strike. The best design way to go is to increase responsiveness, NOT delay it. Which is how they went in 1.2 with Rep skills, but they stopped at trooper. Given all the problems this game has, hopefully they will keep at it.

 

THE GCD burst cheaters are twisting like pretzels to keep their perceived advantage...regardless of the consequences to the rest of the game.

 

Look guys, its VERY simple. The project animation is CRAP. For a number of reasons, but the most obvious is that it needs an activation timer. So if it stays in the game it needs to be switched to ANOTHER skill. One popular suggestion is to switch Project and Disturbance. IT TAKES TIME to magically conjure the junk out of the ground...IT TAKES TIME to spin it in the air....IT TAKES TIME to throw it, slower than a baseball at the target and have it travel there...It is COMPLETELY inappropriate as an instant skill animation. That is not opinion, that is FACT. It needs TIME and therefore it creates a DELAY. Again, FACT. That delay is a bigger deal for sages, but still a problem.

 

Replace it with a saber throw (Yoda was the only jedi to saber throw in the movies, and clearly he is the consular archetype, if anyone has one it should be us)...Or with a version of force push (no knockback needed, again Yoda had the most impressive push in the game against sidious, another powerful force user...if anyone should have that skill, it should be us)...

Edited April 17, 2012 by Dyvim

[LunarRei]

The only problem I find with this skills activation timer, which I don't really mind, is that temporary effects are not counted on cast, but on hit. I have cast accelerated projects numerous times before the clock ran out only to have it slam without crit. That should be addressed first and foremost, imo.

[GySgtKerr]

I hate to break it to you guys, but so far, everything that Bioware said they "fixed" in 1.2, is still as broken as it was in the beta. and I'm not talking just about Counselors. I'm talking about the whole damn game both pve and pvp. Edited April 17, 2012 by GySgtKerr

[CaptainWinget]

I hate to break it to you guys, but so far, everything that Bioware said they "fixed" in 1.2, is still as broken as it was in the beta. and I'm not talking just about Counselors. I'm talking about the whole damn game both pve and pvp.

 

Very true a perfect example is comparing the smuggler's melee attacks to the operative's melee attacks. Operatives have much quicker attacks because the visual affect for the smuggler is much longer than the operative's quick back stab, whereas the smuggler has to fiddle with his gun, just as the inquisitor's lighting charge is much quicker that the Jedi's project ability.

Edited April 17, 2012 by CaptainWinget

[spaace]

I'm sorry but serious Shadow PVPers, want to keep the delay in project. It's called burst damage. It's called killing people. It's ignorant to make some blanket statement saying that only casuals support the delay. Really? C'mon man...

 

a GCD is still a GCD....

 

You obviously don't know what burst is do you?

[jcurri]

You know what the most annoying thing in pvp as a shadoiw is?

 

You take this enormous rock (or 2) and put in in the air, ready to hurl it at your enemy.. and you're thinking, "this is SO cool..", only to have them cloak, and have your giant rock sitting in mid air... and NO damage has been done. And you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

your target is about be killed... as soon as your projected rock hits your enemy, and you're thinking.. "oh ya, you're gonna die!" only to realize that you're enemy's shock got his damage done first, regardless of teh fact that you fired it off before him and killed you first. And you're dead, and you're left thinking to yourself... "you know what, I used my mirrored ability first, he should be dead, and I should be alive...if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

You're stacked up your circling shadows, and your exit strategy, and you're about to really give your enemy the business.... so launch your rock (or 2) into the air about to start your BURST DAMAGE, only to realize that that animation gave them plenty of time to realize what you were about to do, so they hit their "resilience" ability making them completely immune to all the damage you were so excited about... and you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

FIX THIS

Edited April 17, 2012 by jcurri

[Metalmac]

you know what the most annoying thing in pvp as a shadoiw is?

 

You take this enormous rock (or 2) and put in in the air, ready to hurl it at your enemy.. And you're thinking, "this is so cool..", only to have them cloak, and have your giant rock sitting in mid air... And no damage has been done. And you're left thinking to yourself, "if i was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

Your target is about be killed... As soon as your projected rock hits your enemy, and you're thinking.. "oh ya, you're gonna die!" only to realize that you're enemy's shock got his damage done first, regardless of teh fact that you fired it off before him and killed you first. And you're dead, and you're left thinking to yourself... "you know what, i used my mirrored ability first, he should be dead, and i should be alive...if i was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

You're stacked up your circling shadows, and your exit strategy, and you're about to really give your enemy the business.... So launch your rock (or 2) into the air about to start your burst damage, only to realize that that animation gave them plenty of time to realize what you were about to do, so they hit their "resilience" ability making them completely immune to all the damage you were so excited about... And you're left thinking to yourself, "if i was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

fix this

 

This has yet to be address by Bio Ware.

Edited April 17, 2012 by Metalmac

[spaace]

You know what the most annoying thing in pvp as a shadoiw is?

 

You take this enormous rock (or 2) and put in in the air, ready to hurl it at your enemy.. and you're thinking, "this is SO cool..", only to have them cloak, and have your giant rock sitting in mid air... and NO damage has been done. And you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

your target is about be killed... as soon as your projected rock hits your enemy, and you're thinking.. "oh ya, you're gonna die!" only to realize that you're enemy's shock got his damage done first, regardless of teh fact that you fired it off before him and killed you first. And you're dead, and you're left thinking to yourself... "you know what, I used my mirrored ability first, he should be dead, and I should be alive...if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

You're stacked up your circling shadows, and your exit strategy, and you're about to really give your enemy the business.... so launch your rock (or 2) into the air about to start your BURST DAMAGE, only to realize that that animation gave them plenty of time to realize what you were about to do, so they hit their "resilience" ability making them completely immune to all the damage you were so excited about... and you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

FIX THIS

 

Working as intended!

(this counts as sage too.... i dont even cast project anymore (almost) because its not worth the gcd during a burst because of this

[csmnstoica]

You know what the most annoying thing in pvp as a shadoiw is?

 

You take this enormous rock (or 2) and put in in the air, ready to hurl it at your enemy.. and you're thinking, "this is SO cool..", only to have them cloak, and have your giant rock sitting in mid air... and NO damage has been done. And you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

your target is about be killed... as soon as your projected rock hits your enemy, and you're thinking.. "oh ya, you're gonna die!" only to realize that you're enemy's shock got his damage done first, regardless of teh fact that you fired it off before him and killed you first. And you're dead, and you're left thinking to yourself... "you know what, I used my mirrored ability first, he should be dead, and I should be alive...if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

 

or...

 

You're stacked up your circling shadows, and your exit strategy, and you're about to really give your enemy the business.... so launch your rock (or 2) into the air about to start your BURST DAMAGE, only to realize that that animation gave them plenty of time to realize what you were about to do, so they hit their "resilience" ability making them completely immune to all the damage you were so excited about... and you're left thinking to yourself, "if I was an assassin, this wouldn't have happened"

 

FIX THIS

 

No1 and 3 is exactly what bothers me about this.

 

Note that I LOVE THE CURRENT PROJECT and I don't want to change it, but I hate that people can react and protect themselves from my project yet Shock always delivers.

 

Some1 suggested to give Shock the same delay. I dont see any problem with BW making a casting animation for Shock that is on par with Project. This would level the playing field and give every1 a chance to react. It would make the game a little more tactical.

This game already has a LOT of instants, we dont need to make everything like that. Instants with a delay mechanism are a cool mechanic tbh.

[Dyvim]

No1 and 3 is exactly what bothers me about this.

 

Note that I LOVE THE CURRENT PROJECT and I don't want to change it, but I hate that people can react and protect themselves from my project yet Shock always delivers.

 

Some1 suggested to give Shock the same delay. I dont see any problem with BW making a casting animation for Shock that is on par with Project. This would level the playing field and give every1 a chance to react. It would make the game a little more tactical.

This game already has a LOT of instants, we dont need to make everything like that. Instants with a delay mechanism are a cool mechanic tbh.

 

That is called sluggish. People really, really dont like pushing a button and having nothing happen. THere is ABSOLUTELY no reason to insert delays instead of removing them.

[Urdnaxela]

not only project guys,

 

there is another thing that's bothering me, force quake

 

it knocks targets out of the ability range. i know, in end game PvE or PvP it may not be such a big deal (either because it's rarely used or because there are only unstunnable targets, like end game PvE) but it still is a mess.

 

force storm stuns the targets in their tracks while force quake more often than not knocks the target out of range.\

 

so i'd add force quake to the non-mirrored abilities too.

[csmnstoica]

That is called sluggish. People really, really dont like pushing a button and having nothing happen. THere is ABSOLUTELY no reason to insert delays instead of removing them.

 

It doesn't feel sluggish at all. I love the animation - I am lifting 2 BIG ROCKS above my head and dropping them on yours. THAT IS AWESOME and should not have the dmg done upfront.

I could see assassins doing like a short casting animation with a ball of lighting then releasing it. Different yet similar in effect.

 

I love hitting resilience when I see another shadow trying to Project me in Huttball (same faction). It adds a lvl of complexity to PVP. I am making an informed reaction to prevent dmg being done to me.

We should not dumb down PVP with everything instant and damage upfront. The current Project is FUN, its just the playing field needs to be fair and lvled. And for the playing field to be fair, Shock needs the same treatment. I don't understand the resistance - a ball of lighting sounds just as AWESOME.

Edited April 18, 2012 by csmnstoica
grammar

[Onager]

not only project guys,

 

there is another thing that's bothering me, force quake

 

it knocks targets out of the ability range. i know, in end game PvE or PvP it may not be such a big deal (either because it's rarely used or because there are only unstunnable targets, like end game PvE) but it still is a mess.

 

force storm stuns the targets in their tracks while force quake more often than not knocks the target out of range.\

 

so i'd add force quake to the non-mirrored abilities too.

 

Force Quake is actually stronger than Force Storm, because the mobs are CCed for longer. The stun/knockdown last the same amount of time, but when the stun ends, they're already on their feet, whereas after the knockdown, there's several frames of 'getting up' animation during which they still can't do damage.

 

Plus you eventually learn to place Force Quake so that the mobs are in the trailing edge of its area of effect.

 

This isn't the same problem as project vs shock at all. AT ALL. There's at least parity here. Force Quake is harder to use but with a slightly bigger payoff when used properly. There's really no such payoff with Project except the illusion of burst that doesn't actually matter because you can follow a cast time ability with shock and achieve the same burst as you do with project followed by a true instant.

[RobNightfall]

I'm sorry but serious Shadow PVPers, want to keep the delay in project. It's called burst damage. It's called killing people. It's ignorant to make some blanket statement saying that only casuals support the delay. Really? C'mon man...

 

The delay does not help in PvP, period. You don't have to be casual to be mistaken, but you are mistaken. Too many marauders and assassins have mastered the art of stealthing to dodge the boulder for the delay to be worth anything.

[Jatne]

Who cares about the animation when your rock wont even hit some targets.

 

 

You people who think its fine the way it is are casuals im sure. No one who takes the game seriously especially in PvP wants such a huge disadvantage.

 

You can keep the rock animation just make the inquisitor animation simialr and the dmg delayed like project.. WALA FIXED and FAIR.... BIOWARE is some pretty damn stupid imo... they have known about this issue since beta... yet they touted the classes were MIRRORS... all the while doing nothing about the differences... differences that give one class superiority.

 

If they want serious PvPers to stick with this game, they need to fix these imbalances.. its not like it would be hard to do.

 

Having larger spike damage is actually an advantage for Shadows over Assassins. However, that being said I can understand why Sages want it changed.

[Onager]

Having larger spike damage is actually an advantage for Shadows over Assassins. However, that being said I can understand why Sages want it changed.

 

An imbalance either way is still an imbalance. If it's not gimping sages it's (potentially) giving shadows a similar edge in the other direction. It's still a faction-based imbalance that needs changed for parity.

[Dyvim]

It doesn't feel sluggish at all. I love the animation - I am lifting 2 BIG ROCKS above my head and dropping them on yours. THAT IS AWESOME and should not have the dmg done upfront.

I could see assassins doing like a short casting animation with a ball of lighting then releasing it. Different yet similar in effect.

 

I love hitting resilience when I see another shadow trying to Project me in Huttball (same faction). It adds a lvl of complexity to PVP. I am making an informed reaction to prevent dmg being done to me.

We should not dumb down PVP with everything instant and damage upfront. The current Project is FUN, its just the playing field needs to be fair and lvled. And for the playing field to be fair, Shock needs the same treatment. I don't understand the resistance - a ball of lighting sounds just as AWESOME.

 

Im glad you love the animation, we may be stuck with it for a while. If it doesnt feel sluggish to you, then you simply arent paying attention, tbh. Play Sin or Sorc for a while and then tell me that it doesnt feel sluggish...lol. Again, there is already a "charging" lightning skill, its called lightning strike, and it has an activation timer while charging, which is EXACTLY what project needs if it stays in the game. Project is NEEDY. It needs TIME to ridiculously, magically conjure the junk out of the ground. It takes TIME to spin the magic junk in the air. It takes TIME to throw it. TIME. The animation is crap. It is the problem. It should NEVER have been attached to an instant skill. Not only that, watch the six star wars movies. Jedi throw junk about as much as they use choke...hint, that isnt alot. SITH on the other hand throw junk MORE than ANY OTHER RANGED attack. More than lightning, more than choke. In fact, EVERY sith uses junk throwing, even Maul.

 

There is nothing fun about having your instant abilitites avoided, stealthed away from, or mitigated, because your faction has a craptastic animation and the other side doesnt. That is just stupidity. Just like making skills more sluggidh instead of improving them. That is NOT how BW went with trooper, and tbh, it would be a really stupid thing to do. Besides, if you're going to start introducing delays into Inquisitor instant skills, WHY stop there? By your flawed reasoning, delay is fun. Delay adds depth...lol. So lets delay blasters with a charging animation for their instant skills too, and see just how much depth of poodoo we can achieve...lol, hopefully you can see how laughable the slippery slope you would gleefully plunge down, head first, becomes. If not, we can.

 

More responsive is the way to go, especially for instacast skills.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dyvim

[Dyvim]

...There's really no such payoff with Project except the illusion of burst that doesn't actually matter because you can follow a cast time ability with shock and achieve the same burst as you do with project followed by a true instant.

 

Excellent point. Well done, sir.

[csmnstoica]

Im glad you love the animation, we may be stuck with it for a while. If it doesnt feel sluggish to you, then you simply arent paying attention, tbh. Play Sin or Sorc for a while and then tell me that it doesnt feel sluggish...lol. Again, there is already a "charging" lightning skill, its called lightning strike, and it has an activation timer while charging, which is EXACTLY what project needs if it stays in the game. Project is NEEDY. It needs TIME to ridiculously, magically conjure the junk out of the ground. It takes TIME to spin the magic junk in the air. It takes TIME to throw it. TIME. The animation is crap. It is the problem. It should NEVER have been attached to an instant skill. Not only that, watch the six star wars movies. Jedi throw junk about as much as they use choke...hint, that isnt alot. SITH on the other hand throw junk MORE than ANY OTHER RANGED attack. More than lightning, more than choke. In fact, EVERY sith uses junk throwing, even Maul.

 

There is nothing fun about having your instant abilitites avoided, stealthed away from, or mitigated, because your faction has a craptastic animation and the other side doesnt. That is just stupidity. Just like making skills more sluggidh instead of improving them. That is NOT how BW went with trooper, and tbh, it would be a really stupid thing to do. Besides, if you're going to start introducing delays into Inquisitor instant skills, WHY stop there? By your flawed reasoning, delay is fun. Delay adds depth...lol. So lets delay blasters with a charging animation for their instant skills too, and see just how much depth of poodoo we can achieve...lol, hopefully you can see how laughable the slippery slope you would gleefully plunge down, head first, becomes. If not, we can.

 

More responsive is the way to go, especially for instacast skills.

 

People should look at Project like a Fire-and-forget missile. Its instant cast and has a travel time. That is not sluggish.

It would be sluggish if you had to stand still between the time of the cast and the time of the hit, which is not the case. You fire project and go do something else.

Be glad that it doesnt have a short cast time to match up the animation. I guess that would eliminate the slugginess you feel. I love my non intrerruptable, cast on the move fire and forget missiles.

 

Just to reiterate. Any damage that can be consciously prevented is a GOOD thing and adds tactical depth (AKA more fun). I dont mind when people vanish or block my Project dmg. I DO mind that I can't do the same for Shock

[Dyvim]

People should look at Project like a Fire-and-forget missile. Its instant cast and has a travel time. That is not sluggish.

It would be sluggish if you had to stand still between the time of the cast and the time of the hit, which is not the case. You fire project and go do something else.

Be glad that it doesnt have a short cast time to match up the animation. I guess that would eliminate the slugginess you feel. I love my non intrerruptable, cast on the move fire and forget missiles.

 

Just to reiterate. Any damage that can be consciously prevented is a GOOD thing and adds tactical depth (AKA more fun). I dont mind when people vanish or block my Project dmg. I DO mind that I can't do the same for Shock

 

lol. Again play a Sin or a Sorc, and keep trying to peddle that it isnt sluggish. DELAY = SLUGGISH. You fire shock and it does damage. You fire project and it doesnt do damage UNTIL the delay is over. That is total crap. When I fire project I want it to do damage. I dont want to go "do something else" LIKE get hit by a true instant shock from the other faction and die. I fire project first, the sith should die first...BUT THE SLUGGISH DELAY gives the SITH the TIME to react and kill me as well, or do any other action that they wouldnt be ABLE to do if the JUNK wasnt DELAYED. It is such a HUGE disadvantage anyone that needs it explained to them really isnt thinking or must be trolling, IMO.

 

That is the problem, If you cant see it, you are blind. The mirrors are out of alignment, and no delay is BETTER than delay. PERIOD.

 

What do you think the military would rather have...a weapon system that fires and take 2 seconds to hit its target, or one that ONLY takes 1 second? Unless you are talking about retarding the fall of bombs for a specific reason, the vast majority of the time, you want to hit the enemy AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. That is just basic, fundamental, common sense. Delay gives the enemy time to react and to launch his own attacks, especially when they can easily see your attack coming. That is virtually NEVER a good thing.

Edited April 19, 2012 by Dyvim

[Viruzzz]

Why is the burst argument even considered? A mirror ability should be a mirror ability.

And a skill that does damage instantly is better, flat out, there is no two ways about it.

 

It is true that delayed damage gives you a shorter time window in which the damage comes. But since the rock is floating in the air long before the damage, the window of opportunity to react is completely unchanged.

Shock on the other hand you CAN use to burst better with, because it is instant, if you put it at the end of a streak of skills it will do more damage without giving them more time to react.

 

If you stretch the time which you are analyzing one GCD beyond the point of the skills, there is no difference. And then project is clearly inferior, damage that comes later is always worse than instant.

[Dyvim]

Why is the burst argument even considered? A mirror ability should be a mirror ability.

And a skill that does damage instantly is better, flat out, there is no two ways about it...

 

Yes, exactly, but people keep twisting basic logic like a pretzel b/c they think the delay somehow gives them some game changing advantage. Delay is bad. It is really that simple.