Ravage

[jasta_]

If you nerf Ravage by itself it will go back to being completely useless for Juggernauts and Guardians (which it was pre 1.2)

 

Personally I find it pretty balanced... maybe once a WZ I get a huge crit string with it (by huge I mean 5-6K total), the rest of the time it does ok damage provided the last hit lands (which it doesn't half the time because people run away or stun me)

 

It's OP on Marauders because Marauders are OP. Nerf the real problem,

[kenbenobi]

For sage it is game over. Sage is nerfed version of Inquisitor because the same spells are not instant and now melee has been buffed. Intterrups cost nothing to them and they make insane burst. GAMER OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

[Vales]

For sage it is game over. Sage is nerfed version of Inquisitor because the same spells are not instant and now melee has been buffed. Intterrups cost nothing to them and they make insane burst. GAMER OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

 

Spells? did I miss something because it is only one spell with a noticable delay and that is Project.

Otherwise there is no difference and sage = sorc.

Stop exaggerating.

[majikx]

while i might think sent/mara are a little over the top i don't think this ability is all that bad. a channel ability should do a lot of damage as these are easier to counter.

 

on my sawbones i almost never get hit with all 3 hits. with all the stuns, KB and mezz in this game i would think it would be kinda hard to get a full channel. if i am in a situation where my mezz or stun are on CD, then i can use my CC breaker and run away from it. if all 3 or on CD then i will use my shield (which as sawbones also increases healing to me). i then cast a heal followed by my fast heal. not sure if they can use interrupt while channeling this as it would probably interrupt his channel. if they can maybe the ones on my server just don't know yet.

 

BTW can this ability miss? was thinking of trying my dodge ability when every thing is on CD but not sure if it would work?

 

so while imo they are a little over the top i don't think it is this ability as much as other things such as the their Def CDs and being hard as hell to kite.

[hyuplee]

GL with that.

 

 

skip to 3.47 and already there are several ticks where lighting does over 1.2k damage.

As far as I can tell this guy is not even stimed or adrenaled.

 

Granted this is dated a few month ago, and there may have been a few nerf which I am not aware of, but as the global expertise is increase the damage should be higher.\

 

Also

 

 

You're forgetting the GCD on both Force Lightning and Chain Lightning. CL does it's damage over an effective duration of 1.5 seconds, not 0.5, and you can't interrupt FL before 1.5 seconds (well, you can, but you still eat a 1.5 second GCD anyway, so you just lose damage). Also, let's get some more realistic numbers here. Let's assume we have a full 7/18/16 spec and buffed stats of 35.0% Crit, 75.0% Surge, 5.0% Alacrity, 750.0 Damage Bonus. Chain Lightning does 325.22 + 202% FBonus, FL does 127.19 + 79% FBonus per tick. CL gets a 10% and a 6% damage bonus from talents (stacking additively), and FL gets a 12% damage bonus and a 10% increase to crit chance. Thus modified damage is:

 

CL: 325.22 + 2.02*750 = 1840.22 * 1.16 * (1 + 0.35 * 0.75) = 2695.00 per cast.

FL: 127.19 + 0.79*750 = 719.69 * 1.12 * (1 + 0.45 * 0.75) = 1116.60 per tick.

 

Long story short, it can be done.

 

PS. this is not a thread about nerfing mara or the like. This is a thread about ravage. Just like to say this as a reminder.

Edited May 8, 2012 by hyuplee

[Roiz]

For sage it is game over. Sage is nerfed version of Inquisitor because the same spells are not instant and now melee has been buffed. Intterrups cost nothing to them and they make insane burst. GAMER OVER MAN, GAME OVER!

 

If you look at warzones results ranged classes still do more damage then melees and usually have more kills and less deaths. When i play my sniper or my mercenary i am top#1 in damage and kills about 90% games. When a play my marauder or guardian i need to work hard to get over ranged classes and i die a lot. As a marauder i eat alive almost all classes 1v1 except darkness sins and snipers, but this games balanced for team play.

No matter how great your skills after charging into ennemy as a melee you invade into enemy team being under suppressive fire from multiple players, but being a sniper you can easly stay out of enemy fire killing players from safe distance. To make melee competetive in team play melee have to get better defence and higher damage than ranged classes, this is a tradeoff for shorter range. You have bigger range but lower damage = fair deal.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Roiz

[kuey]

Wow talk about getting sidetracked lol. How'd this go from Ravage to Force Lightning? Also wanted to mention that the skill used in that video that was posted at 3:47 was Thundering Blast not Force Lightning. There's also the fact that force lightning's dmg can be reduced with armour, however Ravage (when spec'd Carni) can get 100% armour pen, meaning it doesn't matter who you are with Carni/Combat armour pen.

 

Also wanted to mention that assuming the person in that previous SS had poor PvP equips, the dmg difference against someone equipped would be possibly 80% (being generous) of what we saw (since armour is mitigated thanks to armour pen) which comes down from 7479 to 5983, which may seem far more reasonable except we're only counting 1 hit, and also someone with the equivalent max gear.

 

Not sure if you all had noticed, but WZs aren't 1v1 battles. You can't consistently just save up all your CCs and defensives on the off chance that the Maras/Sents on the other team will decide to attack you, it's just not practical.

[kweassa]

Frankly, although I am at the opinion the Sentinels and Marauders need a slight damage nerf, I don't think Ravage/Master Strike is at the heart of the problem.

 

The current FotM and fad is with Watchman/Annihilation, and it's the bloody high, bloated, armour penetrating DoT damage through continuous self-buffs and 10% base Juyo form, on top of very high chance of criticals, that causes the real problem, rather than Ravage/Master Strike itself.

 

In terms of burst, Combat/Carnage has a very high peak performance in the first few seconds of engagement, and can show woppin' high numbers in a basic attack cycle, except this cycle lasts for a short time, and comes in intervals of 6 seconds out of every 15 seconds of combat. In between the cycles the damage capacity falls to drastically low levels, and while Combat/Carnage is god-like and actually outshines any Watchman/Annihilation build during Under-50 WZs, in the 50's bracket it starts to lose some of its efficiency.

 

In the 50's bracket, against well-prepared enemies, the Watchman/Annihilation build offers a continuous, guaranteed stream of armor-ignoring DoT effects that has a quite high damage output for a DoT type attack, and makes sure that the attack cycle and efficiency does not wax and wane as drastically as Combat/Carnage. If C/C comes in intervals of [mega-burst - impotency - mega-burst - impotency...], W/A comes in a continuous output of [high-burst - high sustained damage - high-burst - high sustained damage....].

 

Nerfing Ravage/Master Strike is not going to really effect Sentinels/Marauders in anyway, because, theoretically, even if you remove the skill totally from the game, a W/A build will still be keeping up horrendous levels of damage on you.

 

Nerfing Ravage/Master Strike is not the answer. People who suggest Ravage/Master Strike be nerfed, need to see the whole picture, the whole forest, and not just one obvious, big tree that's sticking in front of the rest.

[hyuplee]

Wow talk about getting sidetracked lol. How'd this go from Ravage to Force Lightning? Also wanted to mention that the skill used in that video that was posted at 3:47 was Thundering Blast not Force Lightning. There's also the fact that force lightning's dmg can be reduced with armour, however Ravage (when spec'd Carni) can get 100% armour pen, meaning it doesn't matter who you are with Carni/Combat armour pen.

 

Also wanted to mention that assuming the person in that previous SS had poor PvP equips, the dmg difference against someone equipped would be possibly 80% (being generous) of what we saw (since armour is mitigated thanks to armour pen) which comes down from 7479 to 5983, which may seem far more reasonable except we're only counting 1 hit, and also someone with the equivalent max gear.

 

Not sure if you all had noticed, but WZs aren't 1v1 battles. You can't consistently just save up all your CCs and defensives on the off chance that the Maras/Sents on the other team will decide to attack you, it's just not practical.

 

When I said start at 3.47 I didn't mean the skill that is being used at 3.47 but rather a little later. I know the difference between thundering blast and force lightning.

 

Regarding to what you say about force lighting being negated, that is exactly my point.

Force lighting can be negated with armor and such -but so can ravage.

On Jug and Anni mara ravage is the same as every other big hitter - they can be negated.

Only carnage mara can root and penetrate defense with ravage and they are still cc-able, and their build is revolving entirely on ravage, meaning that if you somehow manage to disrupt that skill, the only other big hitter that build has is force scream which does a measly 3.5k -4.5k crit.

 

As for the "5k in 1 hit' argument, it also has a trade off, and that is the mara performing ravage will be rooted to place, meaning he or she is more susceptible to damage as well. (Plus, if he or she had been cced, that ravage would've done very little damage in compare to, say, grav rounds where every hits reduce your armor) You are only focusing on the damage it deals, but not the trade off.

 

It is my belief that people will need to learn when to use cc and when not to use them. It is not acceptable to blow all your cc against other people and then come whining about not having cc to stop a carnage ravage.

 

Lastly. only Carnage pen armor.

Does the skill warrant a nerf - which affect 2 entire classes - because one single build making it considerably stronger?

Edited May 8, 2012 by hyuplee

[Nyjin]

I hear people talk about Master Strike/Ravage like it's THE move that make Sents/Maras strong.

 

We are one of the top 3 classes in the game at the moment, sure...

 

But Master Strike/Ravage is NOT the reason why.

 

When somebody claims we're OP because of MS/Ravage, then I know they have no idea about the class or the game.

 

NOTE: Also applies to Undying Rage/Guarded by the Force.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Nyjin

[alcek]

Thumbs up, kweassa.

[hyuplee]

Frankly, although I am at the opinion the Sentinels and Marauders need a slight damage nerf, I don't think Ravage/Master Strike is at the heart of the problem.

 

The current FotM and fad is with Watchman/Annihilation, and it's the bloody high, bloated, armour penetrating DoT damage through continuous self-buffs and 10% base Juyo form, on top of very high chance of criticals, that causes the real problem, rather than Ravage/Master Strike itself.

 

In terms of burst, Combat/Carnage has a very high peak performance in the first few seconds of engagement, and can show woppin' high numbers in a basic attack cycle, except this cycle lasts for a short time, and comes in intervals of 6 seconds out of every 15 seconds of combat. In between the cycles the damage capacity falls to drastically low levels, and while Combat/Carnage is god-like and actually outshines any Watchman/Annihilation build during Under-50 WZs, in the 50's bracket it starts to lose some of its efficiency.

 

In the 50's bracket, against well-prepared enemies, the Watchman/Annihilation build offers a continuous, guaranteed stream of armor-ignoring DoT effects that has a quite high damage output for a DoT type attack, and makes sure that the attack cycle and efficiency does not wax and wane as drastically as Combat/Carnage. If C/C comes in intervals of [mega-burst - impotency - mega-burst - impotency...], W/A comes in a continuous output of [high-burst - high sustained damage - high-burst - high sustained damage....].

 

Nerfing Ravage/Master Strike is not going to really effect Sentinels/Marauders in anyway, because, theoretically, even if you remove the skill totally from the game, a W/A build will still be keeping up horrendous levels of damage on you.

 

Nerfing Ravage/Master Strike is not the answer. People who suggest Ravage/Master Strike be nerfed, need to see the whole picture, the whole forest, and not just one obvious, big tree that's sticking in front of the rest.

 

Objective post is objective. I'm liking it.

Being a anni marauder myself I have never faced a carnage mara that gives me headaches - very few knows how to use them efficiently at my bracket. When getting hit by ravage there is always the option to just undying or force camo, rendering ravage completely useless.

 

Really, i personally dont believe mara warrant a nerf (a tweak perhaps, but not a nerf), but if we are going to nerf it let's at least do it right.

Edited May 8, 2012 by hyuplee

[kweassa]

Only carnage mara can root and penetrate defense with ravage and they are still cc-able, and their build is revolving entirely on ravage, meaning that if you somehow manage to disrupt that skill, the only other big hitter that build has is force scream which does a measly 3.5k -4.5k crit.

 

In case of the basic combo of;

 

* Blade Rush - Zealous Strike - Precision Slash - Master Strike - (needs Combat Trance to be activated twice) - Blade Storm

 

...the effects of Blade Rush ends almost exactly when the final Master Strike lands, so whether the final Blade Storm activates as a crit totally relies on chance - except, when it does activate, the effects of 100% armour negation lasts upto the final attack, so the last Blade Storm actually reaches around 5k~5.5k.There could be a lot of variations into this basic combo. in which case there will be subtle differences to which attacks proc what effect at which situation.

 

The Combat/Carnage build could be optimized to have another supplementary mode of attack when Precision Slash is down, with a specific build which focuses on the basic attack of Slash + Ataru + Zen effect, in which case you could do an insane amount of damage in a butcher-like wild swinging with a 15% crit boost to Slashes, and 6 of them in a row plus a finishing move of Blade Storm in a matter of around 8 seconds.

 

That's a total of 7 attacks in about 8 seconds, with each slash crit doing around 2k~2.5k a pop. With adrenals+relic out, if half of those Slashes crit, the damage is like .... 3 x 1.8k Slash normal hits + 3 x 2.5k Slash crit hits + (with Combat Trance) 5k Blade Storm, against light armoured targets = around 18k damage in 7~8 seconds.

 

 

Combat/Carnage is definately worth studying IMO.

 

[EDIT/ps]

 

...and the IMO the true worth of C/C builds is with taking out lightly armoured opponents in a limited amount of time, while W/A builds specialize in balanced attack performance and especially killing tanks.

 

Another good thing about C/C builds, is that these builds are much easier to fight with when facing Snipers/Gunslingers. I think you can push upto at least 50:50 chance when played right.

Edited May 8, 2012 by kweassa

[Sookster]

I haven't logged on my marauder since nearly a week after 1.2, not interested in playing alongside FOTM marauders. Mine is annihilation spec and i tried carnage, it's just stupid easy to kill someone with ravage alone with that spec.

 

Before 1.2 marauder/sentinals were already strong, post 1.2 ravage just makes it that much stronger, it's the most common attack a sentinal or marauder uses in warzone, everytime one attacks me, it's ravage/master strike right away and more than half the time I'm rooted with it.

 

So I've been playing my madness assassin more often and dealing with them easier compared to other classes, my merc can't really keep them away even after a jet boost but with my PT it's been about 50-50 thanks to combust (-15% damage taken) and jet charging to someone else away from them. As operative, you can forget about trying to deal with marauders, most players targets operatives first in warzones- my operative has over 1200 expertise and I still die quickly to them.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Sookster

[Digtahk]

Never seen one decent marauder playing carnage spec....there is far too many forms of cc being thrown around to rely on a six second window in which you can do decent damage......If you take ravage away from Annihilation spec marauder its not going to make one bit of difference to their relative performance.....If you think marauders are overpowered ravage is not the culprit....

[Sabredance]

I am curious now.

 

What is your opinion on carnage marauders, may I ask? Do you think a ravage that root people in place is a adequate tradeoff for missing out on Annihilate?

 

Annihilation as a whole is less prone to CC (Dots still tick when you are CC´ed) and therefore more reliable.

And 6 second kick is just awesome.

And as i said before.I don´t see a problem with the Gore+Ravage burst window.

Marauders/Sentinel survivability is a thorn in my flesh.

UR.

Yes i said it.

[kweassa]

Never seen one decent marauder playing carnage spec....there is far too many forms of cc being thrown around to rely on a six second window in which you can do decent damage......If you take ravage away from Annihilation spec marauder its not going to make one bit of difference to their relative performance.....If you think marauders are overpowered ravage is not the culprit....

 

Depends. If you are confident that you can manage to avoid focus fire, and at least count which CCs are thrown around, then Combat/Carnage can be a mighty ally. It's certainly not as difficult to manage as Focus/Rage, but still way more difficult than the standard Watchman/Anni - that much is true... but it can be very rewarding, as well as providing a very welcoming alternative to the W/A standard, if you grow tired of it.

 

(ps) Still trying to find viable playstyle/combat objective for Focus/Rage... kinda difficult tho'

Edited May 8, 2012 by kweassa

[kweassa]

Anyone ever wonder that these kind of conversations are what is really needed in this forum, rather than having to answer to every single, trivial whine and QQ from inexperienced players?

 

I'm quite enjoying this marauder/sentinel build discussion...!

[mystbladex]

For you to be rooted, you must be speced into it first. So it is not like very many marauders has it. Like myself I do not have the root ability because I am not carnage, so the marauders that do this are carnage spec, in which you gain damage with a marauder but you lose a lot of utility.

 

A carnage spec marauder you should be able to handle, but if he is in a group that knows what they are doing and how important it is to keep him up, then that is another story, but you can really say that about any one class.

 

Marauder is the "only" pure damage class, so should it be able to do the "MOST" damage out of any classes instead of a hybrid doing more than a pure damage class?

 

Marauder can not tank or spec heals so they can only do damage. Every other class has options other than DPS.

Edited May 8, 2012 by mystbladex

[SinnedWill]

Carnage Marauder's gore-procced ravage is nasty, yes. And it is certainly capable of dishing out ~10k damage (if every hit is a crit and every off-hand lands and you have very high power with ~78% surge + relics/adrenals) but who still lets a carnage marauder actually get a full ravage cycle done with a gore proc? (besides, carnage marauders are incredibly squishy - if they can't kill you in a full cycle, they're dead. Ravage from Annihilation and Rage marauders is far less significant, but still painful (Annihilation/Rage Marauder Ravages are very closely on par with Juggernaut specced Ravages - yes, they can deal an extra 2k or so with trinkets if every offhand lands + crits, but this rarely happens). Seriously, marauders are a joke once you've learned how to counter them (every class can counter them, but some classes have an easier time). Now as for the damage increase to ravage/master strike, it's actually many Juggs/Guardians that are reaping the greatest benefit from it since tank specs and hybrid specs can actually stun a target and ravage it for the duration. This has made guardians/juggs dps potential much more viable (why they gave juggs/guardians the execution move from marauders is beyond me - it'd be like giving Assassinate to Sorcerers). If you wish to complain about ravage, you should be complaining about the damage it's dealing for Juggs/Guardians since you cannot counter it - the damage being put out by Carnage Marauder Ravage actually makes sense since everyone always does counter it - and the damage dealt by a countered Carny Mara's Ravage is far less than the damage dealt by a Jugg/Guardian's uncounterable ravage.

[vimm]

100% Armor Penetration

x3 Roots off Resolve

 

All in one build!

 

How many knock backs do you have? I only have one and it increases Resolve, next root I CC and Resolve full, 3rd root you Gore me and enjoy 100% armor penetration on Light armor! If I am still up you Massacre+Force Scream then execute time!

 

Its down right pathetic game design...Just pathetic.

 

Why does it matter what type of armor you have? It's 100% armor ignore.

[SinnedWill]

For you to be rooted, you must be speced into it first. So it is not like very many marauders has it. Like myself I do not have the root ability because I am not carnage, so the marauders that do this are carnage spec, in which you gain damage with a marauder but you lose a lot of utility.

 

A carnage spec marauder you should be able to handle, but if he is in a group that knows what they are doing and how important it is to keep him up, then that is another story, but you can really say that about any one class.

 

Marauder is the "only" pure damage class, so should it be able to do the "MOST" damage out of any classes instead of a hybrid doing more than a pure damage class?

 

Marauder can not tank or spec heals so they can only do damage. Every other class has options other than DPS.

 

Carnage is the biggest damaging marauder, yes. Loss of utility? No. It actually has more utility - due to roots from Ravage + Deadly Saber. What it loses is a lot of survivability that the other specs offer (self-healing from DoT crits in Annihilation and Rage's Mobility) and carnage marauder tends to have issues maintaining rage for any fights that last 8-10s, also tends to do mediocre sustained dps compared to the other specs (Carnage is dependant upon short windows of opportunity following gore procs).

 

Marauder isn't the "only" pure damage class - there are Sentinels, Snipers, and Gunslingers, y'know? Albeit, they're actually pretty on par with their damage compared to most marauders (but Annihilation Mara certainly takes the cake on biggest DoT damage - no other class can boast about DoT damage compared to Annihilation Mara/Watchman Sent DoT's). Furthermore marauders are a joke to any Sniper/Gunslinger (they're certainly the easiest kills for sniper - slightly tougher than a sorcerer without a bubble, but at least the sorcerer can fight back).

[SinnedWill]

Never seen one decent marauder playing carnage spec....there is far too many forms of cc being thrown around to rely on a six second window in which you can do decent damage......If you take ravage away from Annihilation spec marauder its not going to make one bit of difference to their relative performance.....If you think marauders are overpowered ravage is not the culprit....

 

^^ True. The ones that really benefit from the ravage increase are the juggs/guardians (tank or hybrid) who can get full ravages while they stun their target.

[fungihoujo]

Leap root, start beating on sorc until they try to use an escape like knockback- trauma debuff root to waste their sprint- force choke if they manage to get sprint/knockback when I don't have a root ready, or they CC break.

 

Then, once all their escapes are done, leap's back up so root again if they've gotten away, if not- gore, ravage- 3k 3k 4k, execute.

 

Dead.

 

 

Free wins til it gets fixed- it'll never get fixed because BW devs all play marauders- free wins til everyone is smart and either unsubs or rerolls as the only good class- the marauder.

[SinnedWill]

Objective post is objective. I'm liking it.

Being a anni marauder myself I have never faced a carnage mara that gives me headaches - very few knows how to use them efficiently at my bracket. When getting hit by ravage there is always the option to just undying or force camo, rendering ravage completely useless.

 

Really, i personally dont believe mara warrant a nerf (a tweak perhaps, but not a nerf), but if we are going to nerf it let's at least do it right.

 

And you could just obfuscate or saber ward and save your cooldown. Carnage marauder dps is 80% dependant on accuracy and now there are huge surges of players playing classes that have accuracy reductions - stacking accuracy stat bonuses is fairly pointless due to how much it takes to gain such small %'s and even a carnage marauder that is full accuracy stacked will still miss at least half of their main-hand hits when their accuracy is debuffed from certain skills (assuming that their target is a 5% defense base class and doesn't stack defenses - far less if they're inquis/consular and do stack defense or have a cooldown to increase their defense values).