Last chance, 1.2 better be polished

[Urdnaxela]

People like you make me giggle. SWTOR had a 6 year development cycle. It saw the rise, the peak, and the eventual decline of WoW. It saw the riddled corpses of MMOs that tried to compete with WoW and couldn't cut it. It saw the MMOs that couldn't compete, but did enough right to stay alive. The issues I personally have with SWTOR is the fact that

 

1) They are missing very important core features that are in basically every other MMO of note (for example combat logs).

 

2) The bugs were there at release, anyone who knows this genre knows this isn't surprising MMOs are buggy. The problem is it takes FAR too long to fix these bugs. To name a few bugs still present - Defend the Shipment (Imperial Ilum Daily), Soa bugs are still there, Interrogator bug, Bonethrasher bugs. These bugs are acceptable if they're dealt with in a timely fashion. They haven't been. This is a problem that should be sorted. Having bugs isn't an issue. Not fixing bugs is an issue.

 

3) The sheer lack of content at endgame (which is still going to be a problem at 1.2). I'm not referring to raids. I'm referring to what you do when you aren't raiding. Sure you may pvp a bit, but this game lacks any real meat to it for downtime. It's either fly around the fleet waiting for a Warzone queue to pop or level an alt. I'm lucky enough to be on an RP server, and even though I've never RPd before it provides something to do, but I understand that it isn't really present for Non-RP servers.

 

4) The replies some of the people who work for BW give. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, Working as intended? There is a reason that saying is an ongoing joke on most servers.

 

5) The lack of a player copy option for the PTS. Testing is a joke. There just aren't enough people on the PTS to test new content because Bioware for some reason must really hate having testers who pay them to test the game.

 

So you may giggle at him. But he's not incorrect. You can't compare this game to WoW at launch, it should beat WoW's launch by default. If it hadn't this game would have gone down like the Hindenburg. The launch is fine. But he's still accurate in saying you have to compare this game to WoW now. That's this game's biggest competitor. They don't have the luxury of drawing out poor content. Sure the game may be able to maintain around 1 million subs in the future (a year or so), but unless BW gets their act together this game will not continue to grow. It will shrink. This game isn't an awful, unplayable mess, but neither is it where it should be at this point. They have no excuse for just now rolling out things that should have been their at launch. Then again that's more EA rushing them than really BWs fault. However, with the development cycle they had it really took me by surprise when they were missing some important features at launch, simple observation of other games would have fixed most these oversights.

 

As much as I've ripped on this game for being where it is at this point in it's life (beginning) it's not because I'm trying to kill the game. If anything it's because I want this game to be good. Me pointing out the flaws Bioware has made is not an LOL BIOFAIL moment, it's me trying to help them see where I think they messed up in the production of this game.

 

Giggle all you want at his comment. However, you should know that he is correct in his comparison. SWTOR is not WoW, they can't hemmorage a fair number of subs and keep on churning through. This beginning year is when they need to retain and gain subs to provide the numbers needed to really grow the game.

 

+1

 

moreover i think it's pathetic to compare swtor's launch with wow's launch. you could only do this if they were a few months apart, but we're talking about years here.

[FigeroMentel]

I love this game, but that doesn't change the fact that the past few months have felt like an expanded beta. 1.2 seems to fix all my problems with the game... I hope. We'll see. Either way, I'm sticking it out. Remember that this is a new game and all MMOs go through their growing pains.

[Kalithas]

Last chance, 1.2 better be polished

 

I bet you were complaining about release date, 100 %

[Scar]

Wow was good for 12 months in, it had alot of content, alot of intesting areas. To say something like that just shows stupdity and reeks of being a fanboy.

The original poster took the time to outline the problems, yet TOR hasnt seemed to address even the most basic ones.

It took 2 months just to get keybinding bugs fixed. And they existed for months in beta.

 

WoW actually had a lot of server stability issues in the first six months. Some servers would be down for days on end. They ended up with a policy where they would give free days due to so much unexpected downtime if your server was affected.

 

I mean, it was "good" for the time, but only because it was being compared to such disasters as WWIIO, and AO's launch.

[Sparklehorse]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect near perfection from a team that has had years to develop this game, taking most of the functionality of WoW and applying it to a new IP. "Standing on the shoulders of giants" is a phrase I'd use here. They already had the nucleus of the story writers from KOTOR onboard, it would be easy enough with their budget to headhunt the best Devs from Blizzard/Trion/Funcom etc, they already had their pick of the Mythic crew.

 

How could they go wrong?

 

I think you have a false idea of how easy it is to "poach" talent from established competitors.

 

Most of those guys sign contracts. Heavy duty, iron-clad contracts that if they break, ruin their lives.

[Bossco]

I love this game, but that doesn't change the fact that the past few months have felt like an expanded beta. 1.2 seems to fix all my problems with the game... I hope. We'll see. Either way, I'm sticking it out. Remember that this is a new game and all MMOs go through their growing pains.

 

Coming from a software engineer point of view, every time you introduce a patch or a fix. You introduce a new bug or a few.

 

I agree it's still new in the realm of MMO's and will take them a while to fix everything.

[Kalithas]

Wow was good for 12 months in, it had alot of content, alot of intesting areas. To say something like that just shows stupdity and reeks of being a fanboy.

 

23 November 2004 - WoW release date ...

 

7 June 2005 - # Battlegrounds are introduced:

 

* Alterac Valley

* Warsong Gulch

 

12 July 2005 Bwl

 

13 September 2005 ZG

 

3 January 2006 AQ

Edited April 12, 2012 by Kalithas

[Rayla_Felana]

Yeah, they're always "seeping" away. Games never get any new players.

 

Ever.

 

+10

 

^Wisest post on the interwebz.

[LrdScorpio]

Coming from a software engineer point of view, every time you introduce a patch or a fix. You introduce a new bug or a few.

 

I agree it's still new in the realm of MMO's and will take them a while to fix everything.

 

This

 

A fact many people refuse to accept is that not all bugs can be found in beta (or reproduced by devs any ways) and also not all bugs can be accurately fixed until the bug goes live and the full extent of said bug is realized.

 

Welcome to the world of computer science

[LrdScorpio]

23 November 2004 - WoW release date ...

 

7 June 2005 - # Battlegrounds are introduced:

 

* Alterac Valley

* Warsong Gulch

 

12 July 2005 Bwl

 

13 September 2005 ZG

 

3 January 2006 AQ

 

lol so true.

 

Remember though that most kids think WoW launch was at BC...

[Catalan]

I think you have a false idea of how easy it is to "poach" talent from established competitors.

 

Most of those guys sign contracts. Heavy duty, iron-clad contracts that if they break, ruin their lives.

 

Fair point.

 

However, assuming that they signed a Non-compete clause with their previous company, what would that be? 1 year max? Then you'd have the different state laws about Non-compete clauses. In a game that took 6 years to make, would waiting 1 year, reasonably early on in the processs, be a sufficient amount of time to wait for the right person? I'd say yes.

[NasherUK]

Yeah, we'll see. Every MMO I've played besides WOW has had server merges and thats that.

 

WOW also has empty servers as people are still leaving in bus loads. But they allow you to PAY (a rediculus amount for an automated service) to transfer so they use that as an excuse not to merge servers.

[DieAlteHexe]

WoW actually had a lot of server stability issues in the first six months. Some servers would be down for days on end. They ended up with a policy where they would give free days due to so much unexpected downtime if your server was affected.

 

I mean, it was "good" for the time, but only because it was being compared to such disasters as WWIIO, and AO's launch.

 

I ended up with 43 days' credit. Forty-three.

[Dragontyrant]

Yknow what, I actually agree (somewhat) with the OP. Not that I'll quit if its a flop ( you people who were mentally typing something along the lines of "lolz we wont miss you" can give your man-brains a rest.)

 

I am sick and tired of the two ends of this community. One hand has this whole " This tiny thing pisses me off, fix it or im leaving it" attitude which helps nothing, and the other has the whole " dont critiscise ANYTHING to do with the game or I'll pull out my Arguments for twelve year olds book and suggest you A) Leave the game or B) give the game a chance. its still young. Which also helps nothing.

 

Go look at the threads that have been made since launch

"The game is only 2 weeks old"

"the game is only 2 months old"

"the game is..."

 

Heres a fun fact for you, this game has been in development for 6 freaking years. The rated warzones were on the PTS for weeks, and whilst buggy most people have given nothing but praise towards the way it is implemented.

 

Us people who are in the middle of the field, stating things that would no doubt improve the game are met with such unbridled fury at the very mention of something not being right with the game, then them same people are on here complaining that they are bored 2 weeks later.

 

TL:DR I'm not quitting the game so no +internets for you for your *** backwards logic

 

In short, give it a rest for god sake.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Dragontyrant

[Urdnaxela]

This

 

A fact many people refuse to accept is that not all bugs can be found in beta (or reproduced by devs any ways) and also not all bugs can be accurately fixed until the bug goes live and the full extent of said bug is realized.

 

Welcome to the world of computer science

 

if you'd read the forums carefully you'd see that people complain most about missing features than bugs.

 

yes - bugs are inevitable and with each version there's a chance that new bugs will arise but that doesn't excuse the fact that there are design flaws, features missing and such.

[VainEldritch]

Don't worry, they had ACME Turd Polishing machine on turbo this morning.

[LrdScorpio]

Fair point.

 

However, assuming that they signed a Non-compete clause with their previous company, what would that be? 1 year max? Then you'd have the different state laws about Non-compete clauses. In a game that took 6 years to make, would waiting 1 year, reasonably early on in the processs, be a sufficient amount of time to wait for the right person? I'd say yes.

 

I work for a small development company, non-game related. My non-compete clause is 2 years.

 

Also, it is not normal nor is it usually effective to bring in a wave of new coders in mid-development. In coding, adding more coders does not mean improving the development process. Quite often it is the opposite actually. Too many cooks in the kitchen so to speak.

 

This is because everybody codes different and having too many different coding styles and approaches to optimization can backfire when it all comes together.

 

It's like comparing a painting done by an expert to a painting done by 10 different experts on the same canvas. The solo job will be better

Edited April 12, 2012 by LrdScorpio

[Infectedsoap]

People like you make me giggle. SWTOR had a 6 year development cycle. It saw the rise, the peak, and the eventual decline of WoW. It saw the riddled corpses of MMOs that tried to compete with WoW and couldn't cut it. It saw the MMOs that couldn't compete, but did enough right to stay alive. The issues I personally have with SWTOR is the fact that

 

1) They are missing very important core features that are in basically every other MMO of note (for example combat logs).

 

2) The bugs were there at release, anyone who knows this genre knows this isn't surprising MMOs are buggy. The problem is it takes FAR too long to fix these bugs. To name a few bugs still present - Defend the Shipment (Imperial Ilum Daily), Soa bugs are still there, Interrogator bug, Bonethrasher bugs. These bugs are acceptable if they're dealt with in a timely fashion. They haven't been. This is a problem that should be sorted. Having bugs isn't an issue. Not fixing bugs is an issue.

 

3) The sheer lack of content at endgame (which is still going to be a problem at 1.2). I'm not referring to raids. I'm referring to what you do when you aren't raiding. Sure you may pvp a bit, but this game lacks any real meat to it for downtime. It's either fly around the fleet waiting for a Warzone queue to pop or level an alt. I'm lucky enough to be on an RP server, and even though I've never RPd before it provides something to do, but I understand that it isn't really present for Non-RP servers.

 

4) The replies some of the people who work for BW give. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, Working as intended? There is a reason that saying is an ongoing joke on most servers.

 

5) The lack of a player copy option for the PTS. Testing is a joke. There just aren't enough people on the PTS to test new content because Bioware for some reason must really hate having testers who pay them to test the game.

 

So you may giggle at him. But he's not incorrect. You can't compare this game to WoW at launch, it should beat WoW's launch by default. If it hadn't this game would have gone down like the Hindenburg. The launch is fine. But he's still accurate in saying you have to compare this game to WoW now. That's this game's biggest competitor. They don't have the luxury of drawing out poor content. Sure the game may be able to maintain around 1 million subs in the future (a year or so), but unless BW gets their act together this game will not continue to grow. It will shrink. This game isn't an awful, unplayable mess, but neither is it where it should be at this point. They have no excuse for just now rolling out things that should have been their at launch. Then again that's more EA rushing them than really BWs fault. However, with the development cycle they had it really took me by surprise when they were missing some important features at launch, simple observation of other games would have fixed most these oversights.

 

As much as I've ripped on this game for being where it is at this point in it's life (beginning) it's not because I'm trying to kill the game. If anything it's because I want this game to be good. Me pointing out the flaws Bioware has made is not an LOL BIOFAIL moment, it's me trying to help them see where I think they messed up in the production of this game.

 

Giggle all you want at his comment. However, you should know that he is correct in his comparison. SWTOR is not WoW, they can't hemmorage a fair number of subs and keep on churning through. This beginning year is when they need to retain and gain subs to provide the numbers needed to really grow the game.

 

I'm sorry but you are so wrong it's almost unbelievable. First of all, about your comments concerning the bugs, defending the shipments is NOT bugged, i do it daily, the only bug with SOA are people not being able to complete it due to lack of skill or intelligence, Interrogator again, not bugged and bonethrasher again NOT BUGGED. They don't want combat logs and are trying to find a way around it because combat logs takes away from the purity of gameplay when it comes to end game, I think the system they are implementing is perfect because only the serious and hardcore players will use it, the people its geared towards. All the mmos you talk about bioware being able to watch fail against wow ALSO took years of development, these games aren't brought up in a matter of months. When WoW came out, it had no "WoW' to go up against, there was no Juggernaut of the mmos, that was a time when diablo was still something to compete with when it comes to mmo games. Endgame has lots of content, you just can't find it apparently. Do your dailies, get datacrons, farm rep with companions, get valor/commendations/titles, get other classes to 40 for legacy buffs, there is a lot to do, you're just incompetent. The PTR was at maximum capacities every time

I logged onto it. Things you consider to be flaws, may not be to other people. The problem is you think that your opinion is the opinion of the masses, and you're wrong. WoW didn't have half the things bioware has when the game came out, all the UI customizations, floating text, almost everything came from mods and was integrated later on. the "Working as intended" so called running joke, comes from WoW. It's hard to read your post because 90% of what you're saying is simply flat out wrong, period. The problem with any mmo is that people who have no idea what it takes to MAKE an mmo or to CHANGE the things coded into the mmo.

Hop off your soap box and stop whining.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Infectedsoap

[Saschi]

I'm in the same boat with having 1.2 being the patch that decides if I stay with this game. I think I've logged in 3 times in the last 2 months, just because my guild mates and I are pretty much bored with it, and are instead playing things like League Of Legends. 1.2 will bring a bit of life back into the guild, but if it doesn't stick, and knowing that every single gamer I know is getting Diablo 3, I dare say we'll just be yet another ghost guild on what already feels like a very dead server for us (even at peak times, finding a random DPS for flashpoints seems nigh impossible on our server).

 

I don't agree with all the OP points, but I can agree on some. Thankfully I enjoyed my leveling experience enough that I'm in no way bitter about it - I got my storyline for each class (albeit not all to 50. Leveling becomes incredibly tedious when you know the area given how little the class quests actually make up of the overall experience, and for whatever reason this game gives massive headaches to both myself and most of my leveling partners), I got a new game to play with my friends and pass some time, and I made some new friends. It's just come at a time when people expect a lot from games, especially those with so much hype in an already established (and dominated) industry, released months to a year (depending upon where your focus lies) to some other highly anticipated games. As such, for some of us, the pressure is really on - time is limited, and so it's important to use it in the way that works best for you. For some that will be here, for others not - it would be nice if the decision didn't look so simple to make, that's all.

 

Anyway, here's hoping my server will be all abuzz after the patch, and fun and merry-making to be had by all!

[lentWolf]

People like you make me giggle. SWTOR had a 6 year development cycle. It saw the rise, the peak, and the eventual decline of WoW. It saw the riddled corpses of MMOs that tried to compete with WoW and couldn't cut it. It saw the MMOs that couldn't compete, but did enough right to stay alive. The issues I personally have with SWTOR is the fact that

 

1) They are missing very important core features that are in basically every other MMO of note (for example combat logs).

 

2) The bugs were there at release, anyone who knows this genre knows this isn't surprising MMOs are buggy. The problem is it takes FAR too long to fix these bugs. To name a few bugs still present - Defend the Shipment (Imperial Ilum Daily), Soa bugs are still there, Interrogator bug, Bonethrasher bugs. These bugs are acceptable if they're dealt with in a timely fashion. They haven't been. This is a problem that should be sorted. Having bugs isn't an issue. Not fixing bugs is an issue.

 

3) The sheer lack of content at endgame (which is still going to be a problem at 1.2). I'm not referring to raids. I'm referring to what you do when you aren't raiding. Sure you may pvp a bit, but this game lacks any real meat to it for downtime. It's either fly around the fleet waiting for a Warzone queue to pop or level an alt. I'm lucky enough to be on an RP server, and even though I've never RPd before it provides something to do, but I understand that it isn't really present for Non-RP servers.

 

4) The replies some of the people who work for BW give. I'm sure you've heard the phrase, Working as intended? There is a reason that saying is an ongoing joke on most servers.

 

5) The lack of a player copy option for the PTS. Testing is a joke. There just aren't enough people on the PTS to test new content because Bioware for some reason must really hate having testers who pay them to test the game.

 

So you may giggle at him. But he's not incorrect. You can't compare this game to WoW at launch, it should beat WoW's launch by default. If it hadn't this game would have gone down like the Hindenburg. The launch is fine. But he's still accurate in saying you have to compare this game to WoW now. That's this game's biggest competitor. They don't have the luxury of drawing out poor content. Sure the game may be able to maintain around 1 million subs in the future (a year or so), but unless BW gets their act together this game will not continue to grow. It will shrink. This game isn't an awful, unplayable mess, but neither is it where it should be at this point. They have no excuse for just now rolling out things that should have been their at launch. Then again that's more EA rushing them than really BWs fault. However, with the development cycle they had it really took me by surprise when they were missing some important features at launch, simple observation of other games would have fixed most these oversights.

 

As much as I've ripped on this game for being where it is at this point in it's life (beginning) it's not because I'm trying to kill the game. If anything it's because I want this game to be good. Me pointing out the flaws Bioware has made is not an LOL BIOFAIL moment, it's me trying to help them see where I think they messed up in the production of this game.

 

Giggle all you want at his comment. However, you should know that he is correct in his comparison. SWTOR is not WoW, they can't hemmorage a fair number of subs and keep on churning through. This beginning year is when they need to retain and gain subs to provide the numbers needed to really grow the game.

 

Well said, indeed. I agree completely! My guildmates and I have had so many in-depth discussions about this, and we always come to the same conclusion:

 

It's not that there are bugs, it's that the bugs either 1) Take months to patch, or 2) aren't patched at all. That, and some critical components are missing from TOR that are present (dare I say 'standard'!) in nearly every other MMO. Combat logs, not too worried about. It's the lack of proper guild facilities, chat/UI options, etc.

 

That said, I loved the guild summit - though still wondering how much of it was legitimate "Oh we want to hear what you say", or if the entire thing was extended marketing

 

 

Lastly - as has been mentioned - comparing TOR launch to WoW launch is pure naivety. WoW was launched many years ago, by a different company, and to a different audience. You realize how much the internet is changed in 8 years? Hell, megavideo was taken down couple months back - would have never happened 8 years ago. Apple was still on its first couple remakes of the iPod 8 years ago. And SWG was in its heyday ....

 

I agree that this game has its flaws. It has many of them - some of which are, arguably, very gamebreaking. They should be fixed in a more timely manner, and I feel like the devs could be a bit more open about how everything is going. Give us dates - I don't mind you being late so much if you tell me April 12. But when you tell me "Okay, maybe April" and make me pay my sub HOPING it MIGHT be SOMETIME in that month, and then leave out big features *cough* advertised rated WZ *cough*, that's when I start to get a bit flustered.

[lentWolf]

(Removed because it's just one big blob of text)

 

You mention that there's no bugs with SOA - just thought I'd point out that often team revives don't work, sometimes players bug on the falling platforms (and then die), etc. Just because YOU haven't noticed a bug, doesn't mean it doesn't exist ...

[LrdScorpio]

if you'd read the forums carefully you'd see that people complain most about missing features than bugs.

 

yes - bugs are inevitable and with each version there's a chance that new bugs will arise but that doesn't excuse the fact that there are design flaws, features missing and such.

 

Features missing? I guess that just depends on your expectations. People keep throwing out a 6yr dev cycle which is not abnormal for an MMO to begin with.

 

Most of the features people want have not come stock in most successful MMO's. All MMO's are layers and all of them have these features come out over time.

 

BW did spend more time than others on the questing. That is BW though, it is there bread and butter and their main focus in game design. It makes sense and at least to me, was expected.

 

Most of the games that focused on the minor features first and foremost were left with a terrible base game to grow out of (WAR comes to mind).

 

If most of these features are game breaking for you, I don't know what to say. You must be relatively new to the MMO world

[LrdScorpio]

You mention that there's no bugs with SOA - just thought I'd point out that often team revives don't work, sometimes players bug on the falling platforms (and then die), etc. Just because YOU haven't noticed a bug, doesn't mean it doesn't exist ...

 

Right but if not everyone experiences it, there is no guarantee that devs can replicate it consistently which must be done before it can be fixed.

[Infectedsoap]

You mention that there's no bugs with SOA - just thought I'd point out that often team revives don't work, sometimes players bug on the falling platforms (and then die), etc. Just because YOU haven't noticed a bug, doesn't mean it doesn't exist ...

 

Not being able to revive on SOA is not a SOA bug, its a bug with all FP or Operations. never in the entire time on my server doing operations EVER has ANYONE EVER, and i mean EVER died from bugging out on a falling platform, and i mean EVER, that's due to you or your guild mates being stupid and not knowing how to jump. I don't notice them because they do not exist, sorry I pointed out that you're just flat our wrong.

Edited April 12, 2012 by Infectedsoap

[Boritoo]

You can absolutely compare launches.

 

WoW at it's launch sucked. Swtor at it's launch was awesome.

 

Most MMOs suck at launch Not saying this was perfect, but it was pretty good.