In organized PvP CC is out of control

[KonstantinT]

Relying on purely dispel to stop CC is bad design.

 

Sure is, if CC lasted for 1 min (original everquest anyone?). In a game where stuns last at the most 4 seconds and you can't be chain stunned forever due to resolve, it's not a problem. IMHO BW balanced stuns perfectly in this game.

[Dee-Jay]

Some of you guys just don't seem to get it.

 

With CC the way it is (short cooldowns, mostly AoE) Huttball games are going to play like Civil War matches with the instant speeder respawns.

 

E.g. there's no realistic way of ever capping vs. competent teams.

 

It doesn't make the game dynamic or exciting, it makes it a stale war of attrition that is decided within the first 40 seconds.

 

 

And CC wasn't even all that coordinated. It was just that when capable people know how best to abuse their CC they turn the entire game into a stalemate.

 

But hey, if you enjoy "no cap" Civil Wars, I'm sure you'll love rated Huttball.

[Twor]

Some of you guys just don't seem to get it.

 

With CC the way it is (short cooldowns, mostly AoE) Huttball games are going to play like Civil War matches with the instant speeder respawns.

 

E.g. there's no realistic way of ever capping vs. competent teams.

 

It doesn't make the game dynamic or exciting, it makes it a stale war of attrition that is decided within the first 40 seconds.

 

 

And CC wasn't even all that coordinated. It was just that when capable people know how best to abuse their CC they turn the entire game into a stalemate.

 

But hey, if you enjoy "no cap" Civil Wars, I'm sure you'll love rated Huttball.

 

You know how footoball matches in the champions league are? Teams score when the opponent makes an error or they have a congenius attack (if they are of equal level). Is that a bad thing?

 

On equally based skill/eq levels you will never see highscoring roflstomps. People know how to use their CC- people also know how to counter it (e.g dispel, friendly pulls etc).

That is PvP on an equal base with 2 coordinated teams who know what they are doing. A close game, as it should be.

 

If its not for you thats your problem, sorry to say that. And that you think cc is "abused" is pathetic.

[Kaarsa]

You know how footoball matches in the champions league are? Teams score when the opponent makes an error or they have a congenius attack (if they are of equal level). Is that a bad thing?

 

On equally based skill/eq levels you will never see highscoring roflstomps. People know how to use their CC- people also know how to counter it (e.g dispel, friendly pulls etc).

That is PvP on an equal base with 2 coordinated teams who know what they are doing. A close game, as it should be.

 

If its not for you thats your problem, sorry to say that. And that you think cc is "abused" is pathetic.

 

Exactly this. Matches between similary skilled teams ends in 0-0 pretty often. Results higher than 2-1 are rarity. Skills and abilities of 1 side are countered by skills and abilities of the other side. And I want to remind that Huttball is won by team who has a ball when it ends with a tie.

 

I just cant wait to be in match like this!

[gabrielcab]

The description the OP made to the Hutball WZ is what make this map one of the best "if not the best" PVP ground ever made in a multilayer game. Sorry for QQ and carebears, Hutball is simply awesome, i'm sorry you don't queue with good teams or don't know how to use your interrupts and CC or your team mates sucks.

 

BTW, if you only play thinking into finishing the dailies fast you will miss a lot of this game PVP. I only hope that when rated WZ start they get rid of these stupid dailies that make people "addicts" to finish them and not enjoy the game.

[DarthMuppeteer]

If there would be less cc, then the tanks would unstoppable. They would just pick the ball and run all the way to the goal. Then Bioware would be forced to boost dps to fix this problem and next players would start whining that they die too fast...

 

True problem is not the cc. Its bad players trying to play game on too high level. Instead admitting themself they are bad, they think the game must be broken.

 

Champion leagues analogs fit here fine. Imagine you being weakest link on champion leaguematch. That wouldnt feel fine everyone running over you. But would you admit that you are in wrong place, and you should be playing amateur football instead, or would you just think that its the game that is broken and rules must be changed?

 

But the game should be fun everyone! Yes it should, but it doesnt mean that Bioware should simplify game for the badplayers until baddies can be as competative as good players too. That would ruin the whole meaning of playing the game. Everyone would be equally good, becouse game would be too easy then.

 

Rated warzones demand players more than random queues. If you feel dispelling teammates and pulling ball carriers out of fire is too much to ask, becouse you play dps not a healer, then stick with non rated warzones, where nobody knows true meaning of teamplay or even care.

[Mandaari]

The porblem with your statement is no one is a champion level pvp'r we all are rather new to this game and its pvp. In regards to the OP its true that spending most of the time stunned or CC'd is not fun and makes for frustrated gameplay for most people. You will never get the fanboys of the system to admit they are wrong and control over your enemy is not " combat " . Even in a real war setting you have the option to fight back, say a large group of enemy soldiers is coming across the town your defending you have the OPTION to fight and die or try to immobilize some of them using explosives or run but you are never forced to sit there and just die becuase they have a foot on your chest using psychic powers to control your body so you cant move only watch as they kill you.

[Zintair]

I personally feel Resolve needs to be looked at.

 

I know theres a lot of talk of ZOMG thats a good game etc. And they are right. But Resolve needs to function correctly for it to be manageable.

 

There is a difference between spamming cooldowns and MANAGING them.

 

It's fun when the Resolve bar is the grid you have to work within before the player is full resolve and can no longer be CCd. It makes coordination required.

 

Abilities operating outside the Resolve such as roots I think is silly.

 

 

Anything that prevents you from the full operation of your character should give "some" resolve. I feel roots should be very small in amount but they should not bend around the resolve rule. Just a personal opinion as it makes certain classes far more viable than others.

 

Snares should not be governed by resolve and I have to grit my teeth saying this against the Juggs and Guardians hahaha/..

[xdvesper]

Huttball with and against coordinated teams is a blast.

 

By the OPs own admission they are PVE-ers and this is the first time they seem to have done organized PVP. Good premades face off with each other all the time and it's brilliant fun.

 

Juggernauts / Guardians - the only ball carrier that matters - are CC immune for 4 seconds when they jump, and they can pull off 3 jumps in a row if positioning is right. It is so difficult to prevent scores that a lot of the strategy revolves around being able to control mid after the - because if the Juggernaut gets anywhere near the end line, a score is nearly inevitable. Games don't end 0-1 between good teams, they often end 5-4 or something.

 

Pulling the ball carrier into the fire and stunning them is a regular occurence and should not phase any good team, your Sorc / Sage just pulls them straight back out and now your ball carrier has a FULL resolve bar and what is the enemy going to do now? The ONLY time you let your ball carrier near the fire is when you know you have a CC breaker or Extricate / Rescue at the ready, and that's part of the whole strategy: you're baiting out the pull and stun to gain the full white bar so you can get past their knockbacks later near the goal line.

 

Ever heard of having a back up ball carrier so you can take turns to carry the ball when their CC breaker is down?

 

Ever heard of letting one of your players get a full resolve bar then passing the ball to them so they get a free score?

 

I think, if you haven't played premade vs premade Huttball, you haven't had fun in SWTOR PVP yet.

[Dee-Jay]

True problem is not the cc. Its bad players trying to play game on too high level. Instead admitting themself they are bad, they think the game must be broken.

 

If you are calling my group of Nightmare raiding War Heroes bad, then I can't take you seriously because you aren't taking me seriously.

 

I get your point that sometimes a game won't be fun for everyone, and that's fine.

 

But if the only ones having fun are the Stealthers waiting to pull the ball carrier into the fire then something isn't working. If a single GCD with an instant cast ability can negate an entire team-effort, then this isn't balanced.

 

If you're into Soccer analogies, then picture this as a Champions League final where instead of an exciting match, the game is interrupted every 20 seconds because of a foul-play.

 

Games like that aren't fun for anyone involved.

 

 

Now again, my issue isn't with CC per say, or that it is so easy to abuse. In fact I'd expect everyone to abuse their CC in order to win (and with abuse I mean use it in a fashion that ensures easy kills e.g. rooting over flames, pulling into fire, charging and stunning people over fire etc.).

 

It just stops being fun if stuff like that happens constantly just like constant fouls ruin Soccer games.

 

If you have no issue with CC now, how would you feel if every AoE knockback had its cooldown cut in half? At what point would you start taking issue with it? I'm past that point.

 

But anyway, since nobody here besides myself seems to have ever participated in a competitive 8v8 match I can't value your opinions. I'm sure you'll start agreeing with me once you participated in similar games.

 

This is an avenue for game-feedback and that is what I provided. Take it or leave it.

[Cowflab]

If you are calling my group of Nightmare raiding War Heroes bad, then I can't take you seriously because you aren't taking me seriously.

 

I get your point that sometimes a game won't be fun for everyone, and that's fine.

 

But if the only ones having fun are the Stealthers waiting to pull the ball carrier into the fire then something isn't working. If a single GCD with an instant cast ability can negate an entire team-effort, then this isn't balanced.

 

If you're into Soccer analogies, then picture this as a Champions League final where instead of an exciting match, the game is interrupted every 20 seconds because of a foul-play.

 

Games like that aren't fun for anyone involved.

 

 

Now again, my issue isn't with CC per say, or that it is so easy to abuse. In fact I'd expect everyone to abuse their CC in order to win (and with abuse I mean use it in a fashion that ensures easy kills e.g. rooting over flames, pulling into fire, charging and stunning people over fire etc.).

 

It just stops being fun if stuff like that happens constantly just like constant fouls ruin Soccer games.

 

If you have no issue with CC now, how would you feel if every AoE knockback had its cooldown cut in half? At what point would you start taking issue with it? I'm past that point.

 

But anyway, since nobody here besides myself seems to have ever participated in a competitive 8v8 match I can't value your opinions. I'm sure you'll start agreeing with me once you participated in similar games.

 

This is an avenue for game-feedback and that is what I provided. Take it or leave it.

 

 

Wait!?! So just because other posters have differing opinions from your own, we haven't played competitive PvP? Or we can't be taken seriously because we aren't as annoyed by cc as you are? Those are pretty bold claims my friend. You also act as if your team doesn't have the same capabilities as the opposing team.

 

I do agree that the resolve system may need some tweaking but after your last comment you're just coming off as a whiner who couldn't use his abilities to their fullest potential like your opponents did. In closing, you have moved from the "meh, he kind of has a point but that type of game sounds fun" to "clownshoes."

[Audenlol]

Like the oP said, you all are in for a rude awaking when you start to face 8 man teams.

 

I expect the novilty to wear off after a few days Or so

[Swidgin]

In anticipation of rated warzones, we had our raid-group split up into four organized groups after our raid for some competitive Huttball games just to see how they play.

 

And it basically confirmed my worst fear.

 

If you thought CC was bad in random groups with AoE knockbacks kicking people every ~10 seconds, constant slows etc. you haven't seen anything yet.

 

Once you get into groups of people who know how and when to abuse CC, it gets 10 times worse.

 

It took a whole 9 minutes before even 1 side was able to score.

 

Carriers were constantly pulled into fires and stunned there to die. Knockbacks were spammed every ~6 seconds making it impossible for our melees to contribute much.

 

The whole cluster**** was finally broken by our Shadows sprinting ahead of everyone and passing to a Stealther near the enemy line.

 

It wasn't fun.

 

 

And I would only consider half my raid serious PvPers.

 

Something has to be done about CC in this game. It's just way too abundant and way too much of it is (Pb)AoE. I won't dwell too much on just how superior Shadows are compared to other classes in Huttball. People like to think Guardians are good, but they still require targets...something which is easily averted.

 

If you want Huttball games in rated warzones in any way to resemble something people would consider "fun", something must be done about CC in this game.

 

OMG this sounds a lot like PVP.........

 

AWSOME.............

 

I can't wait!

[stephenalandavie]

I'm with the rest of the posters. Having played several games like the one that the OP described, I absolutely prefer the close games that are nerve-wracking and push your limits of reacting effectively under pressure. A 6-0 stomp is like ordering a steak and being served bologna sandwhich.

 

The moment that those coordinated passes happened... it's moments like those that make PVP so deliciously entertaining. Like that moment in a chess match where moves planned in advance win the game for you, it's that mental gratification that I feel most players love in PVP.

 

I don't intend this to sound rude, but it sounds to me like you enjoy predictable fights as opposed to dynamic fights. If this is true, I highly recommend that you stick to raiding because it will offer you that kind of gameplay... PVP will not offer you predictable fights in any game.

 

Lol who eats bologna?

Edited April 7, 2012 by stephenalandavie

[Bnol]

If you are calling my group of Nightmare raiding War Heroes bad, then I can't take you seriously because you aren't taking me seriously.

I don't think that was aimed directly at you, however just because you raid Nightmare mode and are War Heroes does not mean you are good at pvp, all it means is you have played a lot of PVP (or abused a lot of Ilum). I know of a lot of terrible War Hero+ players on my server.

 

 

But if the only ones having fun are the Stealthers waiting to pull the ball carrier into the fire then something isn't working. If a single GCD with an instant cast ability can negate an entire team-effort, then this isn't balanced.

 

If you're into Soccer analogies, then picture this as a Champions League final where instead of an exciting match, the game is interrupted every 20 seconds because of a foul-play.

 

Games like that aren't fun for anyone involved.

Use stealth scan or aoes near fire to get those stealthers out of stealth and deal with them accordingly. If that is their tactic you need to find a way to counter it. A single GCD and instant cast ability can counter the pull/stun (extricate, dispel, CC break).

 

Your analogy is incorrect, because using pulls is within the rules of the game in Huttball. If the game is interrupted because of cheating/hacking then you would have a legitimate complaint.

 

If you have no issue with CC now, how would you feel if every AoE knockback had its cooldown cut in half? At what point would you start taking issue with it? I'm past that point.

If those knockbacks had their CD cut in half, then gap closers (and other abilities) would need their CDs adjusted accordingly as well.

 

But anyway, since nobody here besides myself seems to have ever participated in a competitive 8v8 match I can't value your opinions. I'm sure you'll start agreeing with me once you participated in similar games.

 

This is an avenue for game-feedback and that is what I provided. Take it or leave it.

This doesn't help your position any, and in fact weakens it if you think only you have ever experienced a competitive 8v8 match.

 

We also provided our feedback that we like competitive games where it isn't a breeze to score in Huttball and have provided you with multiple ways to counter the pull/stun in fire tactic. You just brush that off as "You just haven't played against the awesome Nightmare mode, War Heroes that we are" instead of actually discussing the mechanics and tactics.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Bnol

[Dee-Jay]

I don't think that was aimed directly at you, however just because you raid Nightmare mode and are War Heroes does not mean you are good at pvp, all it means is you have played a lot of PVP (or abused a lot of Ilum). I know of a lot of terrible War Hero+ players on my server.

 

This is why I left credentials out of my OP. Because the credentials this game offers are utterly meaningless. And yet if I don't post them, well over half of the responses are "L2P" responses. So I did post them...and people still respond with "L2P".

 

This is why I hate these forums, is because over half of the community tells you to L2P as soon as they disagree with you a a certain issue. I could tell people I'm the best PvPer on my server (and that wouldn't be far from the truth) and I'd still get "L2Ps".

 

Use stealth scan or aoes near fire to get those stealthers out of stealth and deal with them accordingly. If that is their tactic you need to find a way to counter it. A single GCD and instant cast ability can counter the pull/stun (extricate, dispel, CC break).

 

I know how to counter Stealthers. But the fact that you think it's that simple shows your lack of experience in such fights.

 

Your analogy is incorrect, because using pulls is within the rules of the game in Huttball. If the game is interrupted because of cheating/hacking then you would have a legitimate complaint.

 

My analogy works for my intents and purposes. Fouls are a part of Soccer we've all come expect. They are lame but a strategic part of the game. Same applies to pulls/pushes and knockbacks.

 

 

If those knockbacks had their CD cut in half, then gap closers (and other abilities) would need their CDs adjusted accordingly as well.

 

This assumes that knockbacks exists solely to counter gap-closers, which is ridiculous in itself. Ever seen an AoE gap-closer? I thought so...

 

 

This doesn't help your position any, and in fact weakens it if you think only you have ever experienced a competitive 8v8 match.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who has ever participated in a really contested 8v8. But I doubt most of the posters here have, especially not those who yell "L2P" because they happen to disagree.

 

I respect your reasonable response but it doesn't change how I feel about competitive Huttball games in regards to CC.

 

And if all people have to say in defense of massive CC spam is "L2P" then I'd rather not hear what they have to say. Because so far every defense of CC has come down to that.

[Manigma]

This assumes that knockbacks exists solely to counter gap-closers, which is ridiculous in itself. Ever seen an AoE gap-closer? I thought so...

Yes it's called Predation.

[Valhalyn]

Hi guys I just want to win...I dont care what work I have to put in for it, and if you make me work more than 5 minutes I'll probably get frustrated after realizing the other team is just as good or even better than mine..

 

Please give me free loot now, because to be honest Shadow/Sin's are broken and I need more gear to effectively outplay them.

 

Also while you're at it remove 2/3's of the CC's from the game because PVP is all that matters and I dont really care about the people that slay digital dragons. My 14.99 is worth more in my world than theirs ever will be. Thank you in advance.

[Geawiel]

What the OP describes is what usually happened when my guild played in WZs before they quit. I couldn't imagine it was that fun for the other side though.

[Bnol]

I know how to counter Stealthers. But the fact that you think it's that simple shows your lack of experience in such fights.

 

Countering stealthers in general and countering a stealth pull into fire are separate things. The problem you describe is a stealth assassin pulling a ball carrier into fire. Depending on the position of the ball that stealth assassin can only be in a couple places to accomplish this, which makes revealing them much easier than revealing a stealther waiting for a pass or waiting to be intervened to. Many times I have stealth scanned awaiting stealth players because I have not seen them in awhile and if they are going to stop the ball there are only so many places that they will be.

 

Your team should identify pullers (even place marks on them in huttball instead of healers) and communicate if they have recently been seen or not. I never said it was easy, but there are tools at your disposal to try to counter it.

 

My analogy works for my intents and purposes. Fouls are a part of Soccer we've all come expect. They are lame but a strategic part of the game. Same applies to pulls/pushes and knockbacks.

In soccer their are penalties for repeated fouls or fouls in certain positions. Repeated fouls don't happen in SW:TOR because of CDs and resolve.

 

In soccer you are punished for fouls near the goal. Similarly, you are punished for pull/stunning ball carriers near the goalline fire if you fail to kill because of a counter (extricate, dispel, CC break) because of now having full resolve.

 

There is no offsides in Huttball, if the opposing team's pullers can just focus on pulling the ball carrier into fire, then your team is not playing ahead of the ball and open for passes on multiple levels.

 

You can also counter that with a pull stun of your own. Many times someone has pull/stunned a ball carrier near the goal and I have returned the favor and scored.

 

This assumes that knockbacks exists solely to counter gap-closers, which is ridiculous in itself. Ever seen an AoE gap-closer? I thought so...

No it assumes that a particular ability cooldown is balanced around the CDs of other abilities and changing one drastically (ie cutting it in half) would necessitate changes elsewhere. They are nerfing the talent in the Arsenal/Gunnery tree that reduces the CD of their knockback from 10 seconds down to 5 seconds. So they are making some adjustments.

 

If your problem is the AoE nature of knockbacks then you are staying too close together with your team. You need to spread out more, give multiple options and directions for the ball to travel, it is like a fast break in basketball you don't have everyone running in the same lane. Only melee would have a problem with aoe knockbacks as they have to be centralized to focus fire, but then melee have gap closers or other abilities to utilize to deal with knockbacks.

 

 

At least Huttball you can win without scoring, and possession of the ball is a much better tie-breaker than the coinflip of Voidstar. For organized play, Voidstar will need more work than Huttball.

[tkdlauri]

All they need to do is tweak resolve so slows and charges go towards resolve or make the CC breaker give you 4 sec immunity to stuns because I hate breaking a CC then going into another CC.

 

Side note I have played against the best of teams on my server and everything has a counter and some of the best games i have played have been 1-0

[Dee-Jay]

If your problem is the AoE nature of knockbacks then you are staying too close together with your team. You need to spread out more, give multiple options and directions for the ball to travel, it is like a fast break in basketball you don't have everyone running in the same lane. Only melee would have a problem with aoe knockbacks as they have to be centralized to focus fire, but then melee have gap closers or other abilities to utilize to deal with knockbacks.

 

Bnol you don't appear to have much experience in organized PvP because you're acting like an armchair PvPer.

 

Listing how to counter each ability, be it stealth via scans, DPS via healing or whatever doesn't qualify as a means of balance. Only because people can walk out of Sweep Bombs, doesn't make them balanced either.

 

Adding an overpowered ability isn't balanced by adding anther oberowered counter-ability. That's not how balance works.

 

PvP is an ever-changing dynamic environment and even the idea that you could "theorycraft" in such situations is ludicrous. And that's exactly what you're doing.

[Haeso]

Tankassins are one of the best, if not the best ball carriers in huttball. I assume that's what he's refering to, but I could be confused. All these "nerf shadow/assassin" threads seem to run together after awhile.

 

Shadow is better for defense, guardian however is far and away the best carrier though. 4 seconds of cc immune after leap, extra damage mitigation, a second leap to friendly, and defensive cooldowns? No class carries like a guardian. Bring one sentinel to transcendence for the guardian and you have a monstrously difficult to stop carrier. If a guardian with good reaction time gets pulled into the fire he can actually warding call it and survive quite easily.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Haeso

[AesirUesugi]

What OP describes is how Hutball is played, tactically and skillfully. There are a myriad of ways to advance the ball, play defense (usually involves some form of CC) and also counter them. I dont understand how it couldn't have been great fun.

 

Playing a Merc Im lucky to have an easy and effective counter to this tactic by using CC breaker immediately followed by running around them Rocket punch into the hazard followed by my stun. Also I spend a good portion of time using stealth scan, and tracking the movements of any Inquisitors because they are so dangerous with Force Speed, Shroud, and Pull on sorcs. Usually there are only a few hotspots where they will be found. I suggest you designate someone to fulfill that sweeper role.

 

I worry that they will listen to people complaining and change the resolve system which is honestly really exquisitely balanced.

It is already insanely easy to white bar someone and in the process make it virtually impossible to stop them. As someone who plays mostly goal-line defence I rely on CC all the time and for me nothing is more fun than that epic struggle in those last 50yards before the goal line.

[WaywardOne]

The situation described makes it so that only a few classes will be allowed on serious teams. It absolutely will be a nightmare that far fewer people will play.

 

Also, a cc spam fest is not fun pvp for most people. It doesnt' surprise me that most of the people posting here are enjoying it; serious pvpers have moved on. Many of you remind me of the people arguing that rogues in Wow were fine.

 

Riduculous troll arguments like "oh, this is a nerf shadows/assassins thread" or "if you don't like cc-spam then you don't want to exert yourself" are fairly pathetic. Show me a successfful pvp game that is a cc-spam fest (nevermind MMORPG, any game)? There isn't one. Wow's the closest thing you got and it has a small fraction of the cc that this one does (and while that has some bridges, it has nothing like Huttball).

 

IMO, aoe knockbacks should be pve only (just like jk/sw sweep stuns are). Give the classes that lose their knockbacks a targetted knockback with a 60-sec rt for pvp (assuming they don't already have one). Awe/Fear/Flashbangs/etc and choke/stasis/etc should also be pve only. That would be a good start...

 

If they don't fix the cc I'll definitely be moving on and I know I'm not alone. I have no problem coordinating and winning CC fights but it's not vaguely star warsy and it's not fun for me (or, I think, most people).