3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BH’s look

[TheOpf]

A crit is a crit. Crit Rail Shots hit harder than non-crit Flame Bursts, and because of CG we will crit with Rail Shot much more frequently than with Flame Burst. I would not advise taking it off your bar; it is a vital ability and great for bursty hits out of nowhere as well as for finishing off foes, especially those who Force Speed away after eating your 8k+ damage Flame Thrower.

 

Yes and no. It's on my action bar, but it's not on my standard rotation currently on live. In pve, it takes away from time in pft. So if a crit RS hits harder than an extra PFT than I don't see why not add it in.

 

My point is that waiting for that 15 percent proc rate for a guaranteed crit is not worth the time spent. Only one tree is built around RS. The rest just use it.

 

Pyro - all about RS procs

AP - PFT central

Shield - Rocket Punch!

 

Shield techs do everything to boost RP, Pyro focuses on RS, and AP should be focused on PFT. The problem is thinking like a Pyro with smexy RS burst, and then just expecting AP to be the same. It's doesn't hit as hard unless crit, and currently on live the proc rate isn't worth investing the time into it. It does work really well to keep it on your bar for runners in pvp, but not in a rotation.

[TheOpf]

Confirmed them both on a Vanguard.

 

3k crits on motar volley and sticky grenade is pretty awesome.

 

It also works on DFA. Haven't tried it on Explosive Dart

[TheOpf]

Or you can have it all: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZrsMrRrfkbsZb.1

 

You lose 9% Aim but you gain all the stuff you need otherwise. In 1.2 this gets fudged a bit because you will now want to spec 1 point for Kolto Vents (which becomes the RB slow), but until then this is the only spec I bother running for AP because I need those shorter cooldowns and the fairly reliable Rail Shot crit.

 

Personally, I have bounced back and forth on the 9 percent aim. You scale better by taking it, and currently on live I think it's better to have it and ignore Rail Shot.

 

In 1.2, I would say your basic builds will be

 

 

Non-RS Build - I can see this really shining in solo queues, and in rateds as it allows you a bit more control.

 

No RS or RB Build - picking up RB for the slow for pvp purposes only. In a pve environment, you use neither of them, and just use Imm, RP, FB, and PFT.

 

RS PVE Build - Full on DPS, probably the most complicated rotation. Imm/RB/RS/RP/FBx4/PFT. Personally, I may never touch this spec as it's just too long. You are adding 3 seconds of PFT loss per rotation. The question only testing will tell is the net gain of RB/RS worth the extra PFT time.

 

RS-PVP Build - You have 3 optional points to spend in Aim, improved quell, or improved electrocute.

 

The non-RS Build will still be viable, though I think with testing we will see the RS builds do a higher total dps. Though I hope and pray for my fingers sake that the non-RS builds will be competitive.

Edited April 7, 2012 by TheOpf

[TheOpf]

Day 3 is up. Until 1.2 hits, I think I am going back to Pyro. The net gain of playing AP is not worth the loss from Pyro or Hybrid builds currently. I don't recommend everyone switch, but for my 4 man team, if I am not Pyro our op and tank guys have to work harder. I can't do that to them.

 

 

However, you can count me on the AP bandwagon now. I had a fun time, and though it's not competitive in a pvp setting. It is fine in a pve setting. It's less damage than Pyro, but it's not far enough behind where it will hurt your ops at all by playing it.

 

 

My main recommendation is that currently on live run the Non-RS build. It will improve your burst, and will make people think you are doing a ton of damage. I pulled off our tank three times with the non-RS build, and never did it with the RS build. PFT/IMM/RP is a ton of damage and threat. Especially if you go DFA/PFT/IMM/RP, I can guarantee that if your tank isn't paying attention you will be tanking.

 

I would love to see and hear and continue this discussion with stories about how the builds are working for you. What happened, and how they work in Huttball, Civil War, and Voidstar. Personally I found AP shined big time in Huttball, was pretty solid in Voidstar, but had a significant disadvantage in Civil War.

 

Thanks for all those who have added advice, recommendations, and play suggestions.

Edited April 7, 2012 by TheOpf

[Karandor]

If you abuse the 5 stacks mortar volley and sticky grenade the spec is pretty insane now. Can just blow up groups with those 2 skills and follow up with 5 stack pulse cannon.

 

 

 

It is absolutely stupid AE damage.

[Theology]

It does not remove stacks, you can sticky, mortar volley and then full stack Pulse Cannon.

 

Wow. Hello AP now, you've just jumped ahead of Pyro.

[Mapex]

Wow. Hello AP now, you've just jumped ahead of Pyro.

 

Only Vanguards Tactics skill tree because they didn't update the skill properly in beta.

 

ED, Flame Sweep, and Death from Above I can confirm as of testing just now do not benefit from Prototype Flame Thrower stacks. Expect the oversight on the Vanguard-side to be handled in the coming weeks.

[Orsian]

If you abuse the 5 stacks mortar volley and sticky grenade the spec is pretty insane now. Can just blow up groups with those 2 skills and follow up with 5 stack pulse cannon.

 

 

 

It is absolutely stupid AE damage.

 

Which is why I use AP.

[Theology]

Only Vanguards Tactics skill tree because they didn't update the skill properly in beta.

 

ED, Flame Sweep, and Death from Above I can confirm as of testing just now do not benefit from Prototype Flame Thrower stacks. Expect the oversight on the Vanguard-side to be handled in the coming weeks.

 

So it is an unintended change you think?

 

Or you think that BH's tree will be updated soon too?

 

Your post is somewhat ambiguous.

[Blurps]

Non-RS Build[/url] - I can see this really shining in solo queues' date=' and in rateds as it allows you a bit more control.[/quote']

 

I realize people over here on the BH board don't value Power Armour, but leaving it out while taking Serrated Blades and not even the RS crit talent seems a little odd

[Hizoka]

Or you can have it all: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZrsMrRrfkbsZb.1

 

You lose 9% Aim but you gain all the stuff you need otherwise. In 1.2 this gets fudged a bit because you will now want to spec 1 point for Kolto Vents (which becomes the RB slow), but until then this is the only spec I bother running for AP because I need those shorter cooldowns and the fairly reliable Rail Shot crit.

 

i would never give up 9% aim. Nothing is bettr then percentage increases. It might not seem great now with out current gear, but down the road that will be a must have talent.

[Xsorus]

I'm considering this AP build next patch

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301G0hZrkrrRrbzdsZb.1

[Hizoka]

I'm considering this AP build next patch

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301G0hZrkrrRrbzdsZb.1

 

giving up charged gauntlets is bad. With the change of each gut tick giving you the instant crit, the odds of you not always getting an instant crit are very low.

[Agooz]

giving up charged gauntlets is bad. With the change of each gut tick giving you the instant crit, the odds of you not always getting an instant crit are very low.

 

Is even a guaranteed RS Crit worth 9 points invested?

[Xsorus]

giving up charged gauntlets is bad. With the change of each gut tick giving you the instant crit, the odds of you not always getting an instant crit are very low.

 

Basically i'm thinking it's better to just Flameburst, since that'll give me a stack of PFT and wasting points on the ability to proc a crit every 15 seconds frankly doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

This is PvP mind ya, not PVE and it might be worth it in PVE, but the only reason i plan on using RB in PvP is for the Snare next patch.

[TheOpf]

I realize people over here on the BH board don't value Power Armour, but leaving it out while taking Serrated Blades and not even the RS crit talent seems a little odd

 

It's a non-Rail Shot or Ion Pulse Build. Read the last few pages. From our testing RS simply prevents you from getting into PFT faster. More PFT = More damage

[TheOpf]

giving up charged gauntlets is bad. With the change of each gut tick giving you the instant crit, the odds of you not always getting an instant crit are very low.

 

Without any testing, this is just conjecture. The main thought is that he wants to run a non-RS Build with RB used only for the slow. It's a straight pvp build.

 

The question we will have to answer is the 3 seconds used to run RB/RS (crit) out damage the amount of damage lost by not being in PFT sooner. Here is the example

 

Charged Gauntlets rotation:

 

Dart coming in, Immolate, Rocket Punch, Retractable Blade, Rail Shot, Flame Burst x2, Rocket Punch, Flame burst x2, PFT, Immolate, RB, RP, RS,

 

Now here is the issue, You have Rocket punch coming off CD. Lets say you get a Rail Shot proc. So you will be keep pushing PFT off because you are ignoring your last FB to squeeze in an RP or RS. You lose at worst 3 sec per rotation.

 

 

Non rail shot rotation:

 

Dart coming in, Immolate, Rocket Punch, Flame Burst x 4, PFT, Immolate, RP, FBX4, PFT

 

I have plenty of time to weave in a free RP and still get to FB before the CG rotation does. by the time you are just getting to your second PFT, Non-rail shot has already begun moving into it's 3rd cycle.

[Kothakk]

10 pages has conviced me to try AP in 1.2 if i find that the changes to Pyro are to hard (i've not been on PTS).

 

Ive always looked on AP with a fascination for not overheating. And come on ... Flame thrower was the reason i played BH in SWG ... so im eager to try 1.2 AP

[Mapex]

Which is why I use AP.

 

I have a feeling people don't read like to read posts that rain on their parade. We don't benefit from this bug at all.

 

So it is an unintended change you think?

 

Or you think that BH's tree will be updated soon too?

 

Your post is somewhat ambiguous.

It's a bug; Vanguards aren't supposed to be able to do that. It's only supposed to affect Pulse Generator/Flame Thrower, which is why the buff is only consumed on use of those abilities and no others.

 

I mentioned this bug earlier in the thread: back in beta, the talent used to affect all AOE abilities (but was consumed on use regardless of AOE ability, even Flame Sweep). They changed the talent the only affect FT/PG, so they made sure the other AOE abilities no longer consumed the buff and did not benefit from the damage boost. However, for Vanguards they forgot to remove the damage bonus effect, leading to an abusive synergy on live.

 

i would never give up 9% aim. Nothing is bettr then percentage increases. It might not seem great now with out current gear, but down the road that will be a must have talent.

I want to squeeze in the 9% Aim talent, but given our current gear and the fact that we need all the control talents in AP, it's just not worth it. In 1.2, once we get the slow talents (finally), I'm going to do my best to squeeze in as many points into the 9% Aim talent as possible, but until then that damage boost won't mean anything if I can't control my enemies with reduced Quell/Electro Dart to set them up for their deaths.

 

giving up charged gauntlets is bad. With the change of each gut tick giving you the instant crit, the odds of you not always getting an instant crit are very low.

 

Not only that, but the tree is balanced around talents such as Charged Gauntlets. People forgoing talents like CG may very well complain in 1.2 that AP still sucks: of course it sucks, you still aren't speccing for all the good talents! CG isn't as powerful a talent as PPA, but it's something the tree is designed around; please don't ignore it.

 

Basically i'm thinking it's better to just Flameburst, since that'll give me a stack of PFT and wasting points on the ability to proc a crit every 15 seconds frankly doesn't seem worth it to me.

 

This is PvP mind ya, not PVE and it might be worth it in PVE, but the only reason i plan on using RB in PvP is for the Snare next patch.

That crit RS may kill an enemy outright or may mean one less stack of Flame Thrower required to kill your foe. You can use your Flame Thrower with less than 5 stacks mind you, and with the RB slow it will be still be worthwhile. Not to mention, if an enemy gets away from you, that crit RS is a great nuke you can use while you close distance.

Edited April 8, 2012 by Mapex

[Mapex]

Without any testing, this is just conjecture. The main thought is that he wants to run a non-RS Build with RB used only for the slow. It's a straight pvp build.

 

The question we will have to answer is the 3 seconds used to run RB/RS (crit) out damage the amount of damage lost by not being in PFT sooner. Here is the example

 

Charged Gauntlets rotation:

 

Dart coming in, Immolate, Rocket Punch, Retractable Blade, Rail Shot, Flame Burst x2, Rocket Punch, Flame burst x2, PFT, Immolate, RB, RP, RS,

 

Now here is the issue, You have Rocket punch coming off CD. Lets say you get a Rail Shot proc. So you will be keep pushing PFT off because you are ignoring your last FB to squeeze in an RP or RS. You lose at worst 3 sec per rotation.

 

 

Non rail shot rotation:

 

Dart coming in, Immolate, Rocket Punch, Flame Burst x 4, PFT, Immolate, RP, FBX4, PFT

 

I have plenty of time to weave in a free RP and still get to FB before the CG rotation does. by the time you are just getting to your second PFT, Non-rail shot has already begun moving into it's 3rd cycle.

 

I'd tweak the rotation to maximize Heat venting and RB ticks proccing CG (and cleans up the 9 second RP cooldown use):

 

ED -> Imm -> RB -> RP -> RS -> FBx4 -> RP -> FT -> repeat.

 

What this does:

RB has a chance to proc CG and is tied more closely to Immolate to help keep the 15 second duration and cooldowns in sync. RB also precedes the Heat-free RP so that you can actually benefit from the Heatless RP (instead of using that proc when at 0-8 Heat), making the FB spam portion more manageable. Also, that means by the time the GCD following the RP is over, you have 3 chances to proc CG: RB initial, RP, and one tick of RB. That's around a 52% chance (1-.75^3) chance to proc CG.

 

Then you want to do your FBx4 + RS spam portion of the rotation, using RS once CG procs (it will almost always proc by now) or after the 4 FBs.

 

After those 5 GCDs (and the GCD following the previous RP), RP will be off cooldown (and the FBx4 spam will most likely make it Heatless) so you can go ahead and shoryuken and follow it up with Flame Thrower.

 

You delay the FT build up a bit, but you ensure the enemy is weakened enough to actually die as a result of it. The reason PFT is scary is because an enemy can lose 50% of their health or more from a full channel when they least expect it, but if you are using the 5 stacked ability early and/or constantly they will catch on and prepare to fight against it. Delaying the 5 stacked FT as a finisher also lets the enemy get overconfident as they use their stuns and tricks and hand your butt to you, only for you to turn it around and annihilate them at the end of the fight.

[Xsorus]

I have a feeling people don't read like to read posts that rain on their parade. We don't benefit from this bug at all.

 

 

It's a bug; Vanguards aren't supposed to be able to do that. It's only supposed to affect Pulse Generator/Flame Thrower, which is why the buff is only consumed on use of those abilities and no others.

 

I mentioned this bug earlier in the thread: back in beta, the talent used to affect all AOE abilities (but was consumed on use regardless of AOE ability, even Flame Sweep). They changed the talent the only affect FT/PG, so they made sure the other AOE abilities no longer consumed the buff and did not benefit from the damage boost. However, for Vanguards they forgot to remove the damage bonus effect, leading to an abusive synergy on live.

 

 

I want to squeeze in the 9% Aim talent, but given our current gear and the fact that we need all the control talents in AP, it's just not worth it. In 1.2, once we get the slow talents (finally), I'm going to do my best to squeeze in as many points into the 9% Aim talent as possible, but until then that damage boost won't mean anything if I can't control my enemies with reduced Quell/Electro Dart to set them up for their deaths.

 

 

 

Not only that, but the tree is balanced around talents such as Charged Gauntlets. People forgoing talents like CG may very well complain in 1.2 that AP still sucks: of course it sucks, you still aren't speccing for all the good talents! CG isn't as powerful a talent as PPA, but it's something the tree is designed around; please don't ignore it.

 

 

That crit RS may kill an enemy outright or may mean one less stack of Flame Thrower required to kill your foe. You can use your Flame Thrower with less than 5 stacks mind you, and with the RB slow it will be still be worthwhile. Not to mention, if an enemy gets away from you, that crit RS is a great nuke you can use while you close distance.

 

 

I can safely say that if people get out of my range on my Powertech when i do AP, it's because they've knocked me off a ledge.

 

I don't even have a snare right now, and it's bloody damn near impossible to escape 10 range from me so I can't flameburst someone down.

 

Between Speed/Pulls/Stuns/Snare i don't think escape will be much of an issue.

[Mapex]

I can safely say that if people get out of my range on my Powertech when i do AP, it's because they've knocked me off a ledge.

 

I don't even have a snare right now, and it's bloody damn near impossible to escape 10 range from me so I can't flameburst someone down.

 

Between Speed/Pulls/Stuns/Snare i don't think escape will be much of an issue.

 

No one has stunned you, ran away to get distance, and started unloading on you? No one has waited for your HO to wear off before knocking you away and rooting you? It's those situations (and they will be common once people catch on) and more where that crit-RS will be extra handy.

 

I don't deny that the rotation can use some cleaning up - spamming FB 5 times is ridiculous and 4 times isn't that much better - but I wouldn't discount the power of a free ranged crit attack every 15 seconds, especially as it bypasses certain mechanics such as the Shadow/Assassin's cooldown that grants 100% immunity to Tech/Force attacks.

[Hizoka]

No one has stunned you, ran away to get distance, and started unloading on you? No one has waited for your HO to wear off before knocking you away and rooting you? It's those situations (and they will be common once people catch on) and more where that crit-RS will be extra handy.

 

I don't deny that the rotation can use some cleaning up - spamming FB 5 times is ridiculous and 4 times isn't that much better - but I wouldn't discount the power of a free ranged crit attack every 15 seconds, especially as it bypasses certain mechanics such as the Shadow/Assassin's cooldown that grants 100% immunity to Tech/Force attacks.

 

you are giving to much credit to the bulk of the players. A few players will do such things as waiting for HO but 95+% are not that smart.

[Mapex]

you are giving to much credit to the bulk of the players. A few players will do such things as waiting for HO but 95+% are not that smart.

When a certain type of opponent is more prevalent you are better able to form strategies to counter it. For instance, Mar/Sent were claimed to be two of the worst classes in the game at launch. Despite receiving almost no major tweaks since then, the classes started being considered two of the best (and some even said faceroll) PvP classes within just a month's time. However, even that stigma is disappearing because now people have formed strategies to defeat them.

 

95% of players haven't fought an AP Powertech yet; the scenario I outlined will be more common come 1.2 when more people spec AP since it will be more user-friendly than ever before.

[Xsorus]

No one has stunned you, ran away to get distance, and started unloading on you? No one has waited for your HO to wear off before knocking you away and rooting you? It's those situations (and they will be common once people catch on) and more where that crit-RS will be extra handy.

 

I don't deny that the rotation can use some cleaning up - spamming FB 5 times is ridiculous and 4 times isn't that much better - but I wouldn't discount the power of a free ranged crit attack every 15 seconds, especially as it bypasses certain mechanics such as the Shadow/Assassin's cooldown that grants 100% immunity to Tech/Force attacks.

 

Hence why I have a Ranged Stun, and a Ranged Pull as well.

 

in the CC war, I'm going to win.