3 Days as an Advanced Prototype on live: An in-depth Pyro BH’s look

[exphryl]

Exept PvE wise ur wrong... Not only do u not get any proc system (ok maybe u do but AP procs are sooo irrelevant that they seriously don't count) watsoever, but u also have mantain a melee dot, immo and ED in cd, as well as RP. It plays out completely different than one another... As comparing arms vs fury in wow....

 

Immolate could be compared to TD, which if somebody is running that they'll use it quite frequently.

 

I also do not think a free Rocket Punch is Irrelevant, or a Crit RS is Irrelevant (Which considering the slightly lower burst, passing off on a free Crit is asinine). There are encounters where burst *is* important and making use of the procs raises in value.

 

You also, in a PvE Operations Environment, do not "have" to keep RB Up. You can RS off of another player's DoTs if you want to use that heat for other things. (Unless there is an odd moment a boss does not have a dot on him)

 

Obviously come 1.2 it'll be more important to get more CG Procs but for now I don't see anybody spamming RB for that.

Edited April 7, 2012 by exphryl

[Mapex]

Hey man I was looking at your build, and was wondering why you took the full 60% armor penetration talent then? You said it yourself not to use RS but on proc, and if you take into account crits bypass all defenses (including armor, I might be wrong here maybe ) this talent is effectively useless. There goes my two cents ^^

 

Every attack is mitigated by either armor or elemental/internal damage resistance (or raw damage mitigation). All melee/ranged crits do is compete with the enemy's Shielding/Glancing roll, just like how melee/ranged accuracy competes with the enemy's Defense roll. That 60% armor penetration talent should be specced into as every single Powertech spec; the advanced class is designed around our Rail Shot ignoring armor even if two specs only use the ability once every 15 seconds.

[Mapex]

I've honestly wondered if Rail shot was bothering to use with AP also, I mean...you waste so many talent points for an ability that hits less then Flameburst, I just don't see the advantage in it for the spec.

 

I mean if you just completely take the ability off your bar, you can get by only wasting really one point on the first tier.

 

This allows you to pick up 2% damage reduction, and 10 seconds off your Stun, with 20% damage reduction while stunned.

 

You also don't have to waste points in Shield tech line on it either, and can pickup a debuff for your primary attack that reduces damage by another 4%

 

Just seems like a huge waste to even bother with Railshot.

 

A crit is a crit. Crit Rail Shots hit harder than non-crit Flame Bursts, and because of CG we will crit with Rail Shot much more frequently than with Flame Burst. I would not advise taking it off your bar; it is a vital ability and great for bursty hits out of nowhere as well as for finishing off foes, especially those who Force Speed away after eating your 8k+ damage Flame Thrower.

[Xsorus]

A crit is a crit. Crit Rail Shots hit harder than non-crit Flame Bursts, and because of CG we will crit with Rail Shot much more frequently than with Flame Burst. I would not advise taking it off your bar; it is a vital ability and great for bursty hits out of nowhere as well as for finishing off foes, especially those who Force Speed away after eating your 8k+ damage Flame Thrower.

 

I'm aware a crit is a crit, i'm saying that it might just not be worth spending all those points in the line just to get a crit on an ability you use every 15 seconds.

[Hizoka]

I'm aware a crit is a crit, i'm saying that it might just not be worth spending all those points in the line just to get a crit on an ability you use every 15 seconds.

 

you have to put them somewhere

[Xsorus]

you have to put them somewhere

 

Exactly, I'm thinking it's better to throw points it the defensive area of the tree instead.

 

Only problem I have is the tier 1 of the tree, you'd have to invest at least 1 point into improving Railshot.

[Hizoka]

Exactly, I'm thinking it's better to throw points it the defensive area of the tree instead.

 

Only problem I have is the tier 1 of the tree, you'd have to invest at least 1 point into improving Railshot.

 

with the way its changing in 1.2 you will ALWAYS have RS crits. so there is no point not taking it.

[Osicat]

ALSO CONFIRMED: PULSE GENERATOR STACKS ALSO INCREASES MORTAR VOLLEY DAMAGE.

 

Any news on this one? Seems on sithwarrior that it not only apply to moltar but also on sticky g. How do it look for BH? Its less risk its a bug if it apply to both classes imo.

[exphryl]

Any news on this one? Seems on sithwarrior that it not only apply to moltar but also on sticky g. How do it look for BH? Its less risk its a bug if it apply to both classes imo.

 

Interesting, anybody on PTS able to confirm both aspects?

 

Cause if so that's pretty funny, not to mention raises value of AP immensely in a PvP Scenario.

Edited April 7, 2012 by exphryl

[Blurps]

I'm aware a crit is a crit, i'm saying that it might just not be worth spending all those points in the line just to get a crit on an ability you use every 15 seconds.

 

It gives you some somewhat controlled burst and AP/Tactics is hurting in that area. The result is not remotely worth 7 talent points of course, just one of the many little issues with the tree. If you're running in high enery most of the time you can invest just one point into RS/HiB and spend the rest elsewhere, but if you use Ion regularly you don't have much of a choice.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Blurps

[Karandor]

with the way its changing in 1.2 you will ALWAYS have RS crits. so there is no point not taking it.

 

Still not sure it's worth it. It's 6 points for a 2.5-3k crit every 15s. You can save 5 points and get a shorter CD on CC and 4% less damage on anyone you hit with FB.

 

You also build up stacks faster since you can ignore RB and RS.

 

 

I've been trying it out and so far I don't miss the RS crits at all.

[Karandor]

Interesting, anybody on PTS able to confirm both aspects?

 

Cause if so that's pretty funny, not to mention raises value of AP immensely in a PvP Scenario.

 

Confirmed them both on a Vanguard.

 

3k crits on motar volley and sticky grenade is pretty awesome.

[Mapex]

Still not sure it's worth it. It's 6 points for a 2.5-3k crit every 15s. You can save 5 points and get a shorter CD on CC and 4% less damage on anyone you hit with FB.

 

You also build up stacks faster since you can ignore RB and RS.

 

 

I've been trying it out and so far I don't miss the RS crits at all.

 

Or you can have it all: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZrsMrRrfkbsZb.1

 

You lose 9% Aim but you gain all the stuff you need otherwise. In 1.2 this gets fudged a bit because you will now want to spec 1 point for Kolto Vents (which becomes the RB slow), but until then this is the only spec I bother running for AP because I need those shorter cooldowns and the fairly reliable Rail Shot crit.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Mapex

[exphryl]

Confirmed them both on a Vanguard.

 

3k crits on motar volley and sticky grenade is pretty awesome.

 

Does using those abilities remove the stacks? Or is that part still tied to flame thrower? (Also does the Snare component/uninterruptable carry over also?)

Edited April 7, 2012 by exphryl

[Coramac]

Does using those abilities remove the stacks? Or is that part still tied to flame thrower? (Also does the Snare component/uninterruptable carry over also?)

 

I don't believe it does but I could be wrong. The actual buff says that it increases AoE damage not Pulse Cannon damage.

 

Anyways...

 

Tactics is a very misunderstood spec. I've played it pretty extensively now with some pretty good success. I think my crew has lost 5 WZs in the last 3 weeks? Maybe 6? At one point we had a 100+ win streak. Not sure how long it lasted, but I completely two armorment weeklies without going to Ilum. It can be extremely effective and anyone who says otherwise has absolutely no clue what they're talking about.

 

1.) Stock Strike is overrated. It's a situation ability / efficiency ability. I thought otherwise for a long time and it was one of the things I really didn't like about the spec. Between Gut and Stock Strike (sorry, I'm not going to bother with Empire side ability names because it'll slow me down), I really looked at Tactics as a melee spec. It's not. It doesn't have the flex range of Assault, but it is not a 4m spec. The situations where it is most beneficial to use is where you don't need more Pulse Generator stacks and it's free. It's also phenominal to follow a Fire Pulse when on low ammo. It's great to have that level of burst for nothing.

 

2.) AoE is abusive in PvP. Pulse Cannon reigns as king of abusiveness. The scaling on this ability is unbelievable. Factoring in all talents, on a crit, you get ~.65 damage per point of Power per tick. It's basically got a 12 second CD (15 seconds but it starts from activation). You do not wait for HtL to use this ability. This is overwhelmingly the defining ability of the spec and learning to use it effectively is the single most important aspect of Tactics.

 

3.) Tactics is primarily a positioning spec. This is unlike Assault. I konw you didn't want comparisons but this is a very critical playstyle distinction. For Assault, the purpose of positioning is almost exclusively tied to survivability. Superior positioning results in better kiting and escape options. However, the build is really a target selection build. Assault's real strength is the ability to very frequently annihilate a vulnerable target. With Tactics, positioning is the primary factor involved in determining effectiveness. Proper positioning greatly increases the number of targets you will hit with Pulse Cannon, the rapidity with which you can unleash Pulse Cannon effectively, and limits the frequency with which you will be interupted. Anticipation is a huge part of PvP. Always has been, always will be. For a healer, it's who's going to need to be healed next. For Assault (for me at least not being a tunneler), it was who's about to be the weak link. In Tactics, it's where do I need be in 5 seconds.

 

4.) HIB is worth using when it will crit. In PvE, Gut is a very strong ability due to damage per cooldown. In PvP, it's not very good. I rarely use it. I use HIB far more frequently but still very rarely. I use it only when it's going to crit and then usually only when someone else has made the target vulnerable to it. Otherwise, it's a waste of a GCD in non-1v1 situations most of the time. It's OK verse stealth, but I normally find Stealth Scan is more than sufficient.

 

5.) Single target Tactics isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be. The spec has good burst. It has extreme spike damage with Stick Grenade and the Fire Pulse delay. It is definitively behind here overall when compared to Tactics. However, like I said, it's not bad. This is where the area of Tactics where you really polish your game play. Knowing when to switch to a single target rotation / playstyle from a Pulse Cannon orientation is an area you can add some effectiveness later. Pulse Cannon is a niche ability- but it's extremely powerful in it's niche.

 

6.) Guard Bursting and swamping healers are two of the best features of Tactics. Catching a Guarded target and a Tank within AoE annihilates the Tank and AoE healing isn't that powerful or effective. You can overwhelm healers with AoE damage which will leave targets vulnerable longer. My group kills tanks very consistently before healers. Guard doesn't have great range. Most tanks will try to peel off a healer. They make themselves vulnerable to do this. Anticipate and take advantage. You can force them together with Harpoon. Know when you need to stun and when you don't need to stun. You don't need a Neural Surge in order to hit targets. It's just a huge help.

 

7.) This is not a solo spec. It's a team build. It's best when working with another AoE build that can help assist in herding. Otherwise, unless people of your team take advantage after a Pulse Cannon, you are just going to be dealing a lot of damage that doesn't kill and is meaningless.

 

Sorry, I wrote this quick.

[Assaultrooper]

any news on this one? Seems on sithwarrior that it not only apply to moltar but also on sticky g. How do it look for bh? Its less risk its a bug if it apply to both classes imo.

 

holy****

[gravioli]

Or you can have it all: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZrsMrRrfkbsZb.1

 

You lose 9% Aim but you gain all the stuff you need otherwise. In 1.2 this gets fudged a bit because you will now want to spec 1 point for Kolto Vents (which becomes the RB slow), but until then this is the only spec I bother running for AP because I need those shorter cooldowns and the fairly reliable Rail Shot crit.

 

So which BM gear do you use with this spec?

[Mapex]

So which BM gear do you use with this spec?

 

I would only use Combat Tech - it is clearly designed for DPS Powertechs and the set bonuses are amazing (Rocket Punch 15% crit chance + your Prototype Weapon Systems for 30% crit damage boost to RP is awesome). The 0.5 seconds on Carbonize also helps you drop 1 more tick of Flame Thrower on enemies.

 

I don't believe it does but I could be wrong. The actual buff says that it increases AoE damage not Pulse Cannon damage.

I remember this from beta; Prototype Flame Thrower used to be "Prototype Power Cycler," a tier 1 talent and made "your next AOE ability deal 20% more damage per stack, up to a max of 5 stacks." This talent is why I try to remind everyone that AP used to be the bursty tree in beta whereas Firebug (PyroTech) was focused solely on DoT damage (PPA only used to proc off IM ticks, not Flame Burst and Rocket Punch). They must have forgotten to fix the talent for Vanguards when they changed it to Flame Thrower/Pulse Cannon in September/October.

 

This is a bug that I assume will be fixed in 1.2 now that it has been pointed out in this thread. I will get back to you and see if it affects DFA/Explosive Dart, but I highly doubt it will.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Mapex

[Karandor]

Or you can have it all: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMZrsMrRrfkbsZb.1

 

You lose 9% Aim but you gain all the stuff you need otherwise. In 1.2 this gets fudged a bit because you will now want to spec 1 point for Kolto Vents (which becomes the RB slow), but until then this is the only spec I bother running for AP because I need those shorter cooldowns and the fairly reliable Rail Shot crit.

 

9% aim is better than a crit RS every 15s.

 

 

Try playing without it, you won't miss it at all.

[Karandor]

Does using those abilities remove the stacks? Or is that part still tied to flame thrower? (Also does the Snare component/uninterruptable carry over also?)

 

It does not remove stacks, you can sticky, mortar volley and then full stack Pulse Cannon.

[Mapex]

9% aim is better than a crit RS every 15s.

 

 

Try playing without it, you won't miss it at all.

 

I have, but I've also been saved many times from higher RB damage ticks and the combo of Imm, RP, CG+RS. It's a playstyle choice but I prefer the harder hit that I can combo with my other abilities as opposed to the more consistent damage granted from the 80+ Power and 1-2% crit.

 

Update on Pulse Generator vs Prototype Flame Thrower:

 

http://www.torhead.com/ability/35M73pK/prototype-flame-thrower

http://www.torhead.com/ability/vZpXQL/pulse-generator

 

Click on "Effect Details" and the descriptions will differ. PFT says "FT damage increased" and PG says "Area effect damage increased." It seems Vanguards have a leftover-from-beta talent to play with until 1.2 (or if it gets hotfixed in the next week).

Edited April 7, 2012 by Mapex

[Agooz]

9% aim is better than a crit RS every 15s.

 

 

Try playing without it, you won't miss it at all.

 

No 9% aim is not "better", it is WAY better. lol

[TheOpf]

Hey man I was looking at your build, and was wondering why you took the full 60% armor penetration talent then? You said it yourself not to use RS but on proc, and if you take into account crits bypass all defenses (including armor, I might be wrong here maybe ) this talent is effectively useless. There goes my two cents ^^

 

The Build in the original post was what I started with before I ran into the whole RS hits like a wet noodle if not critting. Why am I using it again?

 

There is no reason on live to have RS in your rotation. It's too cumbersome and your entire pve rotation needs to be about getting PFT up as quickly as possible.

[TheOpf]

Do not make idiot statements, or assume I haven't played the spec for a few weeks before.

 

In a PvE Environment, they are pretty much the "same". You weave in FT as AP and you get to Rapid Shot less. Otherwise it's FB Spam until you get procs and RP when it's available, using RS with Crit Procs. (Which I don't know from the earlier discussion, my RS crits pretty nicely in a full AP Build so not sure why you (Opf) are seeing different results)

 

In a PvP Environment, the difference presents itself in Snaring. If Pyro suffed the same snare issues as AP it would be quite mediocre in PvP Also.

 

It wasn't that I was seeing less damage as an RS build. I was comparing crit vs. crit btw. I was seeing less PFT bursts, and I was finding it very difficult to keep an eye out for both Free RP procs and holding onto RS waiting for that fricking Charged Gauntlets to proc.

 

I decided to see what would happen if I just dumped it from my rotation. It was then I found that I had more time for PFT and buffed DFA the rotation smoothed out, and things died at a faster rate. My downtime was smoother, and the amount of damage gained by getting to PFT faster was more than the amount of damage lost popping RS. Damage to Heat ratio and time jumping out of my rotation to hit the RS once ever 2-3 cycles did not provide any net gain that I could see.

 

In PVP, AP is significantly behind Pyro, but again RS is like Explosive dart you use it when you are stuck at a range and can't close right then. Which again begs the question why spend 15 points speccing into improving something you randomly use only when nothing else is up?

[TheOpf]

Immolate could be compared to TD, which if somebody is running that they'll use it quite frequently.

 

I also do not think a free Rocket Punch is Irrelevant, or a Crit RS is Irrelevant (Which considering the slightly lower burst, passing off on a free Crit is asinine). There are encounters where burst *is* important and making use of the procs raises in value.

 

You also, in a PvE Operations Environment, do not "have" to keep RB Up. You can RS off of another player's DoTs if you want to use that heat for other things. (Unless there is an odd moment a boss does not have a dot on him)

 

Obviously come 1.2 it'll be more important to get more CG Procs but for now I don't see anybody spamming RB for that.

 

A Free RP is not irrelevant it's just kind of wasted on this tree. I don't mind it, but I don't hold my breath waiting for it. I don't have heat issues with or without the Free RP. However, spending 15 points to boost a crit RS that we may or may not use because it's lower on the priority than just about everything else due to it's ridiculously low proc rate means it's not necessary unless you like pushing the amount of time getting to PFT farther away.

 

If "burst" is so important than PFT in a pve environment will do more in a burst setting than a random crit from RS. PFT is our Burst the more we are in it the better we are.