why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage

[Schwarzwald]

Pure DPS should kill people faster, meaning less time spent attacking that individual and if you burst hard enough, should result in lower total damage done due to the fact that there will be no one around to DPS.

 

Tank DPS won't kill people as fast, giving enemy healers more time to heal up the Tank DPS' target, meaning more overall damage will have to be done in order to kill the target.

 

 

Conclusion: Total Damage Done is not an indicator of who was DPSing 'harder' or 'better'.

[AngryBuddhist]

What you said makes no sense.

 

There is no tank in this game that can outdps a pure dps class.

 

 

Wrong. You must not play much.

 

 

Your argument is to take a screenshot that doesn't even show all of the WZ stats themselves, let alone even begin to tell the whole story of what happened, and to take them WAY out of context in order to build a flawed-from-the-start argument about tanks doing insane damage.

 

 

Ummm you can't do math. Do you know what a fraction is? Do you understand the phrase 'damage per second'? Do you grasp that minutes are made up of seconds? Do you grasp that WZ's have a fixed number of minutes?

 

You fail at 1st grade math.

 

The OP claims that pure DPS is cheated because hybrid DPS out damage them in WZ's. This is an obvious truth.

 

Your failure to understand that doesn't change it. Dead damage classes don't do any damage. That is the crux of the argument. Pure DPS class unable to maintain pure DPS thourhgout a fixed timeframe vs hybrid tank/damage class that can stay alive and do MORe damage in the time frame. That is the complaint. Try to grasp it.

[furiousferret]

There is no way an Immortal Jugg is going to outdps a Mara or Sniper in similar conditions, its just not going to happen. 300k for an Immortal is exception output, 200k is average. This is not to say Immortal is bad, because they have amazing utility and can win games with that utility.

 

Additionally, Marauders are buffed now so the shared tree (Rage) puts out more dps for a Marauder than a Juggernaut.

 

I will not speak for Powertechs but our Assassin tank can do 400k with 200k protection, which is just insane.

[AngryBuddhist]

Pure DPS should kill people faster, meaning less time spent attacking that individual and if you burst hard enough, should result in lower total damage done due to the fact that there will be no one around to DPS.

 

Tank DPS won't kill people as fast, giving enemy healers more time to heal up the Tank DPS' target, meaning more overall damage will have to be done in order to kill the target.

 

 

Conclusion: Total Damage Done is not an indicator of who was DPSing 'harder' or 'better'.

 

You are suffering the same lack of understanding of the OP's argument as this other guy.

[LordbishopX]

Total damage vs DPS what we have hear is a failure to communicate and basic failing at math in general on to the next one.

[Darth_Philar]

Ummm you can't do math. Do you know what a fraction is? Do you understand the phrase 'damage per second'? Do you grasp that minutes are made up of seconds? Do you grasp that WZ's have a fixed number of minutes?

 

You fail at 1st grade math.

 

The OP claims that pure DPS is cheated because hybrid DPS out damage them in WZ's. This is an obvious truth.

 

Your failure to understand that doesn't change it. Dead damage classes don't do any damage. That is the crux of the argument. Pure DPS class unable to maintain pure DPS thourhgout a fixed timeframe vs hybrid tank/damage class that can stay alive and do MORe damage in the time frame. That is the complaint. Try to grasp it.

 

DPS is only counted while actual damage is being meted out. Time spent in the rez zone and time spent out of combat is NOT included in calculating DPS.

 

DPS is a measure of sustained damage during combat. It is a RATE, not a volume. Damage Done is a measure of total damage done. It is a measure of volume, not a rate.

[AngryBuddhist]

DPS is only counted while actual damage is being meted out. Time spent in the rez zone and time spent out of combat is NOT included in calculating DPS.

 

DPS is a measure of sustained damage during combat. It is a RATE, not a volume. Damage Done is a measure of total damage done. It is a measure of volume, not a rate.

 

Yes and the rate varies due to you being DEAD! It is a 15 minute match. How much damage can you do during the match?

 

If it is easier for you guys then simply take 15 times 60. that's the total seconds. Divide your damage by that and that is your DPS for the match.

 

If you got dead and had to respawn TOO BAD!!! you suck for dieing and your DPS goes lower for it.

 

Jesus Christ why are we not funding schools these days!

[LordbishopX]

No hope simple math is made simpler with bad logic and bad reasoning. Man awesome this should be a case study lol. Fundamental ways to calc dps 101.

 

Everyone needs to splash aoe 100% and dots during a match to get dps up period. **rollseye***

Edited April 5, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Darth_Philar]

Yes and the rate varies due to you being DEAD! It is a 15 minute match. How much damage can you do during the match?

 

If it is easier for you guys then simply take 15 times 60. that's the total seconds. Divide your damage by that and that is your DPS for the match.

 

If you got dead and had to respawn TOO BAD!!! you suck for dieing and your DPS goes lower for it.

 

Jesus Christ why are we not funding schools these days!

 

Let me explain this for you:

 

Tanks are like a Electric Prius

DPS are like a Ferrari

 

The Ferrari can go 210 MPH (this is the DPS)

The Prius can go 50 MPH

 

The Ferrari gets 15 MPG (this is its "hitpoints")

The Prius gets 50 MPG

They both have a 15 gallon gas tank

 

The Ferrari can reach 225 miles in 1.1 hour but then dies due to low hitpoints

The Prius can reach 225 miles in 4.5 hours but still has hitpoints left and keeps going.

 

The Ferrari reaches the 225 miles 4 times faster than the Prius because the Ferrari has a higher DPS. The Prius takes 4 times as long as the Ferrari to hit 225 miles, but keeps chugging past 225 miles all the way to 750 since it didn't run out of gas.

 

Ergo, the Ferrari can go faster and thus has a higher DPS (rate of damage) while the Prius can go longer and thus has a higher miles traveled (Damage Done).

[Varicite]

Ummm you can't do math. Do you know what a fraction is? Do you understand the phrase 'damage per second'? Do you grasp that minutes are made up of seconds? Do you grasp that WZ's have a fixed number of minutes?

 

You fail at 1st grade math.

 

The OP claims that pure DPS is cheated because hybrid DPS out damage them in WZ's. This is an obvious truth.

 

Your failure to understand that doesn't change it. Dead damage classes don't do any damage. That is the crux of the argument. Pure DPS class unable to maintain pure DPS thourhgout a fixed timeframe vs hybrid tank/damage class that can stay alive and do MORe damage in the time frame. That is the complaint. Try to grasp it.

 

I'm not failing to understand anything you're saying. What you're saying is just.. not correct.

 

Philar does a decent job of explaining it, if you like cars. : )

Edited April 5, 2012 by Varicite

[BigfootNZ]

I think the real question to be asked that some of the 'DPS tanks are uber why play pure DPS class' adherants seem to miss is... given the high Damage on the scoreboard done by these supposed DPS tanks, did any of this damage actually kill anyone, or actually contribute to opposing enemy kills in any meaningful way?

 

Spamming a 'limitless targets' AoE whenever you can in the heat of a crowded melee will always net you large damage scores in the end, but hitting 6 or 7 people at the door in a Voidstar match or turret in Alderaan for 1k dmg isnt gonna make much of a difference during that particular fight if any, given the average players HP totals in such situations... but it'll still net you a 7k+ boost to your overall damage score with the press of a single button, which some people think is more important in the long run.

 

As such, Damage done on the post match scoreboard means nothing if none of it actually helped contribute to kills...7k spread over 6+ people is pointless, 7k on a single player however means he's going to die soon, which is alot more helpful.

 

That being said, I do find DPS tanks a nightmare as a Gunslinger, most of my attacks are white damage, and as such (even with Florish Shot) they can still get me most of the time unless i go full burn on them with everything I have. But I personally like that, im squishy thats my draw back for my nice single target DPS someone has to be my Rock to my Scissor... and yes I shouldnt even be bothering to go after Tanks (DPS or otherwise), but sometimes their the only target around

 

Really id say, why play a DPS tank when you can play a face melting Assassin or Shadow?.. now those guys make most classes redundant.

 

Edit:- meh more or less what others have said, but the DPS tanks are uber damage crowd doesnt seem to understand... 100 cupcakes spread between 100 people or one giant mother of a brownie 10 foot sqaure for one single person, I know which is the most filling (too filling).

Edited April 5, 2012 by BigfootNZ

[kronomandar]

i can spend an entire match beating on a tank that is getting heals, never coming close to killing it, and get highest damage done in a match even taking into account the tanks mitigation.

 

meanwhile, a pure dps can run around killing other players in a handfull of seconds, running between targets, occasionaly dying, lurking in stealth waiting for that perfect oportunity to strike...

...and do less than half my damage throughout the match, while having 50 kills and 20+ killing blows.

 

that pure dps can then come to the forums with a screenshot of that match and cry for nerfs to hybrids/tanks/healers/nieghbors kids/ect

[Rudollis]

Let me explain this for you:

 

Tanks are like a Electric Prius

DPS are like a Ferrari

 

The Ferrari can go 210 MPH (this is the DPS)

The Prius can go 50 MPH

 

The Ferrari gets 15 MPG (this is its "hitpoints")

The Prius gets 50 MPG

They both have a 15 gallon gas tank

 

The Ferrari can reach 225 miles in 1.1 hour but then dies due to low hitpoints

The Prius can reach 225 miles in 4.5 hours but still has hitpoints left and keeps going.

 

The Ferrari reaches the 225 miles 4 times faster than the Prius because the Ferrari has a higher DPS. The Prius takes 4 times as long as the Ferrari to hit 225 miles, but keeps chugging past 225 miles all the way to 750 since it didn't run out of gas.

 

Ergo, the Ferrari can go faster and thus has a higher DPS (rate of damage) while the Prius can go longer and thus has a higher miles traveled (Damage Done).

 

But Warzones do not follow the rules of your example. A warzone lasts a set number of seconds. You have that time to damage people. The resulting damage total divided by the time the warzone took is your dps. Time spent dead or running is time spent dealing no damage.

Also I don't get all the aoe bashing. Damage is damage. It needs to be healed up when it is dealt or people die. If you deal mediocre damage per target, but to multiple targets, it still creates a lot of pressure. If it is dealt to only one target, it usually is easier to heal or avoid/mitigate. AOE, contrary to popular belief, is not bad in warzones.

There is a place for aoe damage and for single target damage and both is helpful and important. AOEs weaken multiple enemies making it easy for single target dps to alpha strike them down, the more targets weakend, the harder for a healer to react.

AOE is a utility in pvp like any other utility.

 

But, it needs to be said, damage stats are also way overrated in warzones. Not always is the one who deals the most damage the one who helps the team in the warzone effort the best.

[kronomandar]

high damage means nothing.

high dps means nothing.

aoe pressure damage means very little.

 

the only damage that matters in pvp is burst.

 

if you can put out the burst, heals are overwhelmed, things die

 

if you cant put out the burst, you look at the end game scoreboard and try to convince yourself that your high damage/dps actualy counted for something.

[LordbishopX]

Man bad logic is just fail total damage and actual what really matters that is real dps are not the same.

 

Killing someone in 4 hits vs killing someone in an hour that is healed is not the same. The 4 hit guy has higher dps the hour guy has meaningless total damage. Most tank specs have a hard time with taking out a healer most true dps specs do not why higher DPS duh...

Edited April 5, 2012 by LordbishopX

[Erasimus]

I applaud the people in this thread that understand that total damage in a WZ is not a particularly important stat.

 

For the others, you do realize the DPS means Damage Per Second, right? The only way to accurately calculate DPS is to know how long someone is alive and attacking and how much damage they did during that time.

 

In an OPS total damage to a Boss is much more important since a Boss has X health and the more damage you do the faster he/she/it will die. In a WZ? Not so much. I seldom ever vote MVP for someone based on total damage or healing for that matter. I try to vote for those that I see that:

 

1. Fight for the objective (on the node, protecting the doorway, etc.)

2. That are healing and keeping players alive that are protecting/attacking nodes.

 

I see someone keeping 3 people busy while someone else caps they may get my vote no matter how low they are on the scoreboard.

 

Basically I vote for whomever I feel has done the most to help win the WZ and raw healing/damage in a WZ is not necessarily a good measure of that.

 

(P.S. And of course any healer that keeps me alive will almost surely get my vote )

Edited April 5, 2012 by Erasimus

[Battilea]

But Warzones do not follow the rules of your example. A warzone lasts a set number of seconds. You have that time to damage people. The resulting damage total divided by the time the warzone took is your dps. Time spent dead or running is time spent dealing no damage.

 

No, dps is only during the fight. Just like in a raid, DPS is for each boss or group, not for the downtime in between. If you want the total damage for the entire period, that's what the total damage stat is for.

 

Basically, what happens if the DPS doesn't die or doesn't die often? And good ones, supported by their team, don't die that often.

 

Also I don't get all the aoe bashing. Damage is damage. It needs to be healed up when it is dealt or people die. If you deal mediocre damage per target, but to multiple targets, it still creates a lot of pressure. If it is dealt to only one target, it usually is easier to heal or avoid/mitigate. AOE, contrary to popular belief, is not bad in warzones.

 

It isn't bad, but is not better than the same damage applied to a single target, unless it is really applied in mass.

 

1k damage to various people I can ignore for quite a while with my healer or I just spread around some probes and counteract it. High damage on a single target though I have to answer or the person is dead. And often all I can do is slow the inevitable.

 

Getting people dead is also important. Living, but hurt people, continue to do their thing. Dead people don't. Take a situation where you have a 2 on 2. One group does 1k AoE, the other 2k single target. Say they have 12k hp each. After 3 cycles of attacks, there's 2 guys from team one with 6k hp, while team 2 has one guy at 12k and 1 at 0. 3 cycles later, the guys from team 1 are at 3k hp each, and team 2 is dead.

 

This is part of why they can churn out those damage numbers. They don't kill their targets, their targets get healed, and so their targets live to continue taking damage. It inflates not just their damage, but also the numbers for the opposing side's healers.

 

Now toss CC into a situation like that. Flashbang grenade, the jugg fear thing, the sorc whirlwind, merc concussion missile, and so on...all those break with AoE. That 2 on 2? Whirlwind one of those 2 AoEers and they have one guy dead while they still have 9k hp instead of 6k. The AoEers do that, it breaks.

 

There is a place for aoe damage and for single target damage and both is helpful and important. AOEs weaken multiple enemies making it easy for single target dps to alpha strike them down, the more targets weakend, the harder for a healer to react.

AOE is a utility in pvp like any other utility.

 

Yup, it definitely does have its uses. If not answered, the damage adds up and then people can finish off the weak links. But the same amount of damage applied to a single target is usually more useful. That's why AoEs, once they get a certain number of targets, become more efficient than single target stuff.

 

But, it needs to be said, damage stats are also way overrated in warzones. Not always is the one who deals the most damage the one who helps the team in the warzone effort the best.

 

Indeed.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Battilea

[Anarchico]

These DPS tanks you speak of must be Assassin or Powertech (and even then i doubt its happening).

 

Id pay money to see a Immortal Jugg keep up with a Marauder for DPS.

 

Not happening.

dont pay money to see a vengeance juggernaut to keep up with a marauder for dps cause u ll loose ur money....immortal juggernaut is a tank spec lol...not specialize din dealing dmg but for absorbing dmg for his allies....on the otehr hand vengeance mostly for me and rage jugger's can easily overcome marauder dmg output..

[Rudollis]

Well dps is a mathematically defined unit is all I meant. It is defined as damage dealt per time. So yes, if you are dead, you deal no damage, thus lowering your damage per time value. And the downtime is fairly big in warzones due to being stuck in the starting area. Voidstar for example is really extreme in that regard, dying is worst there cause it takes you out of the fight for quite a long time. So in voidstar, a tanking class have an easier time reaching comparable dps.

I am not putting down single target dps at all. And I don't base people's team value on damage stats. It is far more situational what is best when. Sometimes it might be burst, sometimes it is heals, sometimes it is guarding key players, sometimes it is AOE, sometimes it is CC, interrupts, there are so many factors, and the game would be a very boring one if it was true that only burst damage is what matters. It doesn't and it isn't.

 

Terms are confused a lot on these forums. There is a difference between dps (damage per time, or kilometers / miles per hour in that car example) and burst damage capability (more like accelleration, or torque if you stick to the car example).

[DarthBloodloss]

This discussion must be about the level 10-20 range? There are never tanks at the top of the damage charts.

 

Even in games where I die more than the average amount, this doesn't hurt my up time enough that a tank is putting out more damage.

[Tyraelium]

DPS tanks to as much or more damage in WZ then pure dps. The main reason is that they still have several tank abilities and some natural defense and can sill out dps a dps class. this might not be much but a well played dps tank is better in so many ways to pure. Why be a pure dps.

 

 

All you trolls that want to explain this as ae vr single target and all kinds of other bs I run with dps tanks that hit 500k damage regularly.

 

The truth is there really is no point to run with a lot of pure DPS. In the 3 warzones currently available, tank/heals is all you need. It is feasible to win in all 3 warzones without pure DPS classes.

 

Huttball - fairly obvious, but even if you don't have the ball, you can choose to camp middle instead of intercepting and killing the enemy ball carrier

 

Voidstar - cc and cap a door, then just stall as someone sprints ahead and caps the remaining doors

 

Civil War - sprint/cc to nodes. indefinite delaying of nodes is all you need. heals/tanks live longer than dps.

[Varicite]

The truth is there really is no point to run with a lot of pure DPS. In the 3 warzones currently available, tank/heals is all you need. It is feasible to win in all 3 warzones without pure DPS classes.

 

Huttball - fairly obvious, but even if you don't have the ball, you can choose to camp middle instead of intercepting and killing the enemy ball carrier

 

Voidstar - cc and cap a door, then just stall as someone sprints ahead and caps the remaining doors

 

Civil War - sprint/cc to nodes. indefinite delaying of nodes is all you need. heals/tanks live longer than dps.

 

How do you CC 8 people in Voidstar and Civil War to cap?

 

<.<

 

I thought you said they were facing DPS, not braindead vegetables who don't have CC breakers, CC, or know how to stop a cap.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Varicite

[Battilea]

Well dps is a mathematically defined unit is all I meant. It is defined as damage dealt per time. So yes, if you are dead, you deal no damage, thus lowering your damage per time value. And the downtime is fairly big in warzones due to being stuck in the starting area. Voidstar for example is really extreme in that regard, dying is worst there cause it takes you out of the fight for quite a long time. So in voidstar, a tanking class have an easier time reaching comparable dps.

 

The way language works though is that we have roughly similar understandings of what a word means. That allows to communicate concepts.

 

For DPS, the accepted definition is the damage per second while you are fighting. Trying to use that term to apply to something else just muddles the issue.

 

Not to mention, how much people die depends on the player, their team and the opposing team.

[Varicite]

This discussion must be about the level 10-20 range? There are never tanks at the top of the damage charts.

 

Even in games where I die more than the average amount, this doesn't hurt my up time enough that a tank is putting out more damage.

 

It's about tanks in DPS gear (because tanking gear is worthless in PvP) doing 500k damage / 100k+ protection at the end of a warzone match.

 

It does happen.

 

It's still not what the OP seems to think is happening, though.

[finansjapp]

There is a lot of flawed logic here. My hybrid tank do more damage in a wz than my dps. My dps however do much more in short period of time. Who wins?

 

Here is the problem. Even though my dps can do much more in short period of time, my tank can do almost exact the same amount. Reason for this is my tanks ability to take less damage than my dps because of defenses and armour. Who wins? The tank.

 

Now this can be fine. Every class should have a nemesis. But to say that the damage my tank do is meaningless is very very bad. Its actually no logic at all. Damage is damage in a set amount of time against a set amount of health.

 

This is an equation:

 

You have a gun and you have a handgrenade. The handgrenade kill 3 in 1 minute. The gun kill 1 in 5 seconds, then after 30 seconds he can kill another. Who won at the end of the day?

 

Sure you can throw in healers in this equation to make the result worse. But for who?