why be a pure DPS when DPS tanks do more damage

[Ravenolf]

DPS tanks should not be doing even equal damage to pure dps.

 

And before you start going on and on about unproductive dps.

 

I would take 6 tankasins over 6 of any other pure dps class out there. And you and I both know, i would win every time.

[Cowflab]

Tanks should never do more damage than a dps spec player period. The same is true of a healer. However, tanks defensive mechanisms should work in pvp too making them extremely hard to kill.

 

They don't. Overall damage on the WZ scoreboards =/= DPS(damage per second, or damage dealing capability). There are so many misinformed players using this as an example and it's complete and utter crap. I do agree with the last part of your post though. If they applied the defensive mechanics to PvP a little better then they would be able to nerf tank damage without killing off the archetype.

[Darth-Rammstein]

Tanks should never do more damage than a dps spec player period. The same is true of a healer. However, tanks defensive mechanisms should work in pvp too making them extremely hard to kill.

 

That would be fine and all if in this game tanks actually had good survivability which they don't...if a class that has a healing tree or tanking tree decides to roll dps they should be just as viable a choice as the pure dps classes, period.

[Cowflab]

Okay.

 

Now I know there is a "productive" damage and "unproductive" damage.

 

Assasin tanks in DPS gear do 500-600 k of unproductive damage during WZ.

 

While my sniper do 500 k of productive damage during WZ (in case he is jumping of his pants AoEing every square millimeter of the floor).

 

And that's why it is working as intended.

 

That's why when assasin tank in DPS gear meets my sniper both with CDs up he unproductively kills my sniper during 3-4 whites + lightning + discharge + death field + assasinate.

 

So unproductive I must say

 

Waaaaaahhhhhhhh... A tank killing a DPS, you say? Unreal!!! That should never happen.

[Cowflab]

That would be fine and all if in this game tanks actually had good survivability which they don't...if a class that has a healing tree or tanking tree decides to roll dps they should be just as viable a choice as the pure dps classes, period.

 

This.

[BambulaGTS]

That would be fine and all if in this game tanks actually had good survivability which they don't...if a class that has a healing tree or tanking tree decides to roll dps they should be just as viable a choice as the pure dps classes, period.

 

Yeah, that's why they are all rolling "dps" deception tree instead of "tanking" darkness talent tree.

 

Or they not?

 

Good joke, bro.

[Viliphied]

I never talked about balance. I challenged the argument that a tank dont do important damage. That is a flawed argument which has no root in reality. On contrary tanks do a lot of VERY important damage. They can kill dps just as fast as a dps can kill them.

 

True. That's still 1v1. Which, as previously stated, doesn't matter.

 

You say your operator can kill things much faster. In some circumstance yes it can. In others no it can not. But this is based on assumptions.

My scoundrel's time to kill on any target is less than my tank's. 100% of all targets. Just because my tank can kill a dps in the same amount of time it takes my dps to kill a tank doesn't mean the tank is doing the same DPS. My tank would take longer to kill a tank. My dps would take less time to kill a dps. My tank takes a day and a half to kill a (good) healer, even with tricks. My scoundrel can kill one before they come out of stun with tricks, and can, at the very least, make sure they aren't healing anyone else until they die.

As to group balance. This game is very badly group balanced. Some classes have very little use or impact in group play.

Examples? Until then, PEBKAC.

[BambulaGTS]

Waaaaaahhhhhhhh... A tank killing a DPS, you say? Unreal!!! That should never happen.

 

The tank facerolling 2 immunity keys and 2 selfheals while drinking cofee with one hand and picking his nose with another hand?

 

True story.

[Viliphied]

Okay.

 

Now I know there is a "productive" damage and "unproductive" damage.

 

Assasin tanks in DPS gear do 500-600 k of unproductive damage during WZ.

 

While my sniper do 500 k of productive damage during WZ (in case he is jumping of his pants AoEing every square millimeter of the floor).

 

And that's why it is working as intended.

 

That's why when assasin tank in DPS gear meets my sniper both with CDs up he unproductively kills my sniper during 3-4 whites + lightning + discharge + death field + assasinate.

 

So unproductive I must say

3-4 whites: MAYBE 6k dmg. Maybe. Probably closer to 5k.

lightning: 4-5k with HD up (which it won't be if he's hybrid)

discharge: really? you srs? like 500 dmg.

Death field: 2.5 k and lol that assassin for not having wither.

Assassinate: 4-5k crit.

Total dmg: 18ish k if the assassin is EXTREMELY lucky with crits. Probably closer to 14k in most scenarios.

 

Time to kill: 13.5 seconds, 9 GCDs.

 

So, in those 9 GCDs, you weren't able to kite at all? He was just on you for almost 15 seconds? No knockback? stun? root?

 

If that sequence kills you, you deserved it.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Viliphied

[Viliphied]

The tank facerolling 2 immunity keys and 2 selfheals while drinking cofee with one hand and picking his nose with another hand?

 

True story.

 

****. I didn't know we had 2 immunity keys. If i'd only known that sooner. (lrn to know when a tank has popped those, and use damage he's NOT immune to during those times). And those 2 self heals for <2k each really turn tables in fights all the time. (they do occasionally in a close fight, but they're 10-12% heals, not 35% like a medpack)

[finansjapp]

True. That's still 1v1. Which, as previously stated, doesn't matter.

 

 

My scoundrel's time to kill on any target is less than my tank's. 100% of all targets. Just because my tank can kill a dps in the same amount of time it takes my dps to kill a tank doesn't mean the tank is doing the same DPS. My tank would take longer to kill a tank. My dps would take less time to kill a dps. My tank takes a day and a half to kill a (good) healer, even with tricks. My scoundrel can kill one before they come out of stun with tricks, and can, at the very least, make sure they aren't healing anyone else until they die.

 

Examples? Until then, PEBKAC.

 

Of course it matters. It is damage given in a set amount of time to a set amount of health.

 

Scoundrel and operator are the ones who can kill an opponent consistently fast. I give you that. I cant see that other dps can do the same. As such their damage can be insignificant also. This given some circumstances.

[BambulaGTS]

3-4 whites: MAYBE 6k dmg. Maybe. Probably closer to 5k.

lightning: 4-5k with HD up (which it won't be if he's hybrid)

discharge: really? you srs? like 500 dmg.

Death field: 2.5 k and lol that assassin for not having wither.

Assassinate: 4-5k crit.

Total dmg: 18ish k if the assassin is EXTREMELY lucky with crits. Probably closer to 14k in most scenarios.

 

Time to kill: 13.5 seconds, 9 GCDs.

 

So, in those 9 GCDs, you weren't able to kite at all? He was just on you for almost 15 seconds? No knockback? stun? root?

 

If that sequence kills you, you deserved it.

 

Assasin will be lucky in crits cause he will have recklesness, 3 charges with PvP bonus (all CDs up - remember?)

 

He will have HD, cause they all use 24/0/14. Ligthning with adrenal and recklessness is ticking with 1700 and it is much more than 4-5 k.

 

Death field crits for 3 k.

 

From that 13 sec 5 sec he will be immune to all stuns/knockbacks/mezzes (and yes, of course he will be immune while channeling lightning and of course will ruin any dots that are needed for some sniper spec burst). From that 13 sec he will have 12 sec 70 % ranged dodge with deflection.

 

Ok 5 sec passed. I can mezz - he will trinket. I can knockback - he will forcespeed out of root and instantly on me. I can stun - he will just eat it, given deflection is up. Ranged root will be deflected.

 

Kiting with sniper?

 

LOL bro, if you are not in cover = no entrench = eat spike/electrocut/knockback.

 

Seems you have no clue.

Edited April 7, 2012 by BambulaGTS

[Viliphied]

Of course it matters. It is damage given in a set amount of time to a set amount of health.

 

Scoundrel and operator are the ones who can kill an opponent consistently fast. I give you that. I cant see that other dps can do the same. As such their damage can be insignificant also. This given some circumstances.

 

Define "consistently". Assault vanguards can. Commandos and Gunslingers can if left uninterrupted. Sentinels surely can. A well played focus Guardian can. Sages can't kill particularly fast, but their damage is constant, keeps a target snared, and pretty consistent, plus they put out those huge totals you seem to love.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're saying matters? That my tank's time to kill on a dps is the same as my dps on a tank? You're completely ignoring 2 things: A) Tanks have bigger health pools, generally (yes, even with dps gear), and B) Tanks have significantly better mitigation.

 

If you put the two of them on the SAME (stationary) target, the scoundrel's time to kill will be less 100% of the time. Throw in kiting, movement, etc, and that probably drops to 95% of the time.

[BambulaGTS]

****. I didn't know we had 2 immunity keys. If i'd only known that sooner. (lrn to know when a tank has popped those, and use damage he's NOT immune to during those times). And those 2 self heals for <2k each really turn tables in fights all the time. (they do occasionally in a close fight, but they're 10-12% heals, not 35% like a medpack)

 

Funny boy.

 

I bet you do not remember times when they used water on top of pre-nerfed rakata medpack and self-heals.

[Viliphied]

Assasin will be lucky in crits cause he will have recklesness, 3 charges with PvP bonus (all CDs up - remember?)

 

He will have HD, cause they all use 24/0/14. Ligthning with adrenal and recklessness is ticking with 1700 and it is much more than 4-5 k.

 

A) All CDs up doesn't mean super lucky auto crit happy time. It means he's really likely to crit on lightning and (maybe) death field (depending on when he uses abilities, etc). Ok, if EVERY lightning tick crits (not guaranteed), you can bump that up to 6-7k.

 

B) Most assassins go 31/0/10, because it's a better spec.

 

C) He still wouldn't have HD up in your scenario, because it takes 3 shocks to get it up to 3 stacks (if hybrid, less if he's specced correctly)(which is where you'd see a 1700 crit).

 

Death field crits for 3 k.

k. That's another 500 dmg over my estimate. OHNOES

 

From that 13 sec 5 sec he will be immune to all stuns/knockbacks/mezzes (and yes, of course he will be immune while channeling lightning and of course will ruin any dots that are needed for some sniper spec burst). From that 13 sec he will have 12 sec 70 % ranged dodge with deflection.

A) deflection is 50%.

B) Ok, that's still only 5 out of 13s. Try to root during those 5s. If that doesn't work, push out as much dmg as you can, and stun/kb when it's done.

 

Ok 5 sec passed. I can mezz - he will trinket. I can knockback - he will forcespeed out of root and instantly on me. I can stun - he will just eat it, given deflection is up. Ranged root will be deflected.

 

Kiting with sniper?

 

LOL bro, if you are not in cover = no enrench = eat spike/electrocut/knockback.

 

Seems you have no clue.

 

You realize ALL of his abilities are 10M range right? If you can't get out of 10M range during the duration of your stun, PEBKAC.

[Viliphied]

Funny boy.

 

I bet you do not remember times when they used water on top of pre-nerfed rakata medpack and self-heals.

 

you...can't do that anymore? so, it's irrelevant to this discussion? K? Cool.

[BambulaGTS]

A) All CDs up doesn't mean super lucky auto crit happy time. It means he's really likely to crit on lightning and (maybe) death field (depending on when he uses abilities, etc). Ok, if EVERY lightning tick crits (not guaranteed), you can bump that up to 6-7k.

 

B) Most assassins go 31/0/10, because it's a better spec.

 

C) He still wouldn't have HD up in your scenario, because it takes 3 shocks to get it up to 3 stacks (if hybrid, less if he's specced correctly)(which is where you'd see a 1700 crit).

 

 

k. That's another 500 dmg over my estimate. OHNOES

 

A) deflection is 50%.

B) Ok, that's still only 5 out of 13s. Try to root during those 5s. If that doesn't work, push out as much dmg as you can, and stun/kb when it's done.

 

 

 

You realize ALL of his abilities are 10M range right? If you can't get out of 10M range during the duration of your stun, PEBKAC.

 

Stacks? But you know that shock can proc twice with a talent.

 

And he would have HD.

 

Deflection gives 0,5 dodge e.g. 50 %, but he has around 20 % of his own passive dodge.

 

All roots ingame currently are either delivered by ranged/melee attacks (deflected with deflection up) or by force/tech attacks (resisted while force shroud up). Anyway force speed break roots.

 

Yea 10 m, except force pull . Good luck bro timing entering cover exactly when stun finishes.

 

You really think assasin should never ever use his CCs? He will from the start if I not entrenched. But if I entrenched from the start and leave cover after stun to build distance I can not entrench second time and of course I will eat stun/knockdown.

[Tyraelium]

Everyone in this thread who supports pure DPS classes likely thinks Warzones are deathmatches.

 

They are not.

 

You don't need killing blows to win Warzones, you just need survivability and constant damage output, which both tanks and healers excel at. Pure DPS classes have a small role in Warzones but they really are not needed at all.

[Arkerus]

Everyone in this thread who supports pure DPS classes likely thinks Warzones are deathmatches.

 

They are not.

 

You don't need killing blows to win Warzones, you just need survivability and constant damage output, which both tanks and healers excel at. Pure DPS classes have a small role in Warzones but they really are not needed at all.

 

That pretty much sums it up.

 

Tank and healer teams are stomping in every WZ because you CAN'T KILL THEM. When you ask them about it they think its the way its supposed to be.

 

Well if thats the way its supposed to be then we might as well remove DPS from the game.

[Varicite]

Yeah, that's why they are all rolling "dps" deception tree instead of "tanking" darkness talent tree.

 

Or they not?

 

Good joke, bro.

 

Congratulations, you've proved that a tank spec has more survivability than Deception, one of the squishiest classes in the game.

 

Yes, it has more than that, but it will go down when focused just like any other class. It might be able to escape once every 3 minutes w/ Force Shroud/Cloak.

 

All of the survivability comes from the talents, though, not the gear. Putting on tanking gear won't make you last much longer outside of added hp, and that's the real problem.

[finansjapp]

Define "consistently". Assault vanguards can. Commandos and Gunslingers can if left uninterrupted. Sentinels surely can. A well played focus Guardian can. Sages can't kill particularly fast, but their damage is constant, keeps a target snared, and pretty consistent, plus they put out those huge totals you seem to love.

 

 

I'm not sure what you're saying matters? That my tank's time to kill on a dps is the same as my dps on a tank? You're completely ignoring 2 things: A) Tanks have bigger health pools, generally (yes, even with dps gear), and B) Tanks have significantly better mitigation.

 

If you put the two of them on the SAME (stationary) target, the scoundrel's time to kill will be less 100% of the time. Throw in kiting, movement, etc, and that probably drops to 95% of the time.

 

You can not assume a stationary target! This is just not possible as it is no stationary targets. The whole "I can do more dps on a training dummy" is really not relevant. Because it does not include the two most important factors in pvp:

 

1. Defensive and offensive capability

2. Health pool

 

Yes your operative will kill a squishy dps class faster than your tank. But that has nothing to do with the equation! You completely ignore the fact that time has no impact on killing. Its either you win the fight or you do not.

 

If we put up group variables, and add healers and other characters, then it MAY matter, but not necessarily. Some hybrid classes in this game is very powerful because they have excellent defensive and offensive capabilities. Some dps classes have very little defense, and some tanks have little offensive capabilities.

[Ruwe]

I'm a Tanking Vanguard and I'm always topping the damage charts. My secret? AOE damage. Pulse Cannon, Explosive Surge, Sticky Grenade, and Mortar Volley give me a huge volume of AOE damage at my dispense.

 

I honestly -- despite having the best gear -- cannot match the damage that a pure DPS can put out. My biggest critting abilities only crits for 2-2.5k and my spammable abilities are around the 1-1.2k range.

 

Defensive stats aren't amazing either as most classes completely ignore them with their special attacks. More or less were 3/4th's your dps, 1/4ths better survivability.

 

 

The tanking defensive stats are fine, when you are fully buffed, and traited as a TANK, not as a dps tank, but a straight up tank. I'd have to disagree that survival is only 1/4 better.

 

I have a sage a gunslinger a sentinel and a vanguard tank. By far my vanguard has the highest survival. Sage melts in about 2 seconds under focused fire, GS maybe 2.5 seconds. The sentinel if I'm popping CD's can survive a bit longer, call it 3-4 seconds under focused fire. My vanguard? 15-20 seconds when I pop all my CD's. Usually long enough to keep them from capping an objective until my team shows back up.

[Sickboy_]

sin tanks sure, guardian/jugg tanks damage is laughable and no threat to anybody. Every single one of their attacks is white instead of yellow, which means its subjected to defense/absorb chance which means theres a high chance you wont even be able to hit anybody.

[Darth_Sookie]

Well you understand that a rage spec dps tank or marauder can aoe a smash crit (shockwave ticks) - anywhere between 5k-7.5k

 

so 7.5k x 5 players (aoe smash) = 37.5k every minute (i think thats the cd) for 14 minutes = 14 x 37.5 = 525k - only aoe dmg .. now do you understand

 

Don't be ridiculous.

 

Also a "tank" specced for dps is no longer a tank, he is a DPS. How is that so hard to understand. Juggernauts have two dps trees and one tank tree. Hell even Commandos have one healing tree. Are they healer? Yeah they are not PURE.

 

Operatives? Access to healing, NOT PURE.

[Ryotknife]

The tanking defensive stats are fine, when you are fully buffed, and traited as a TANK, not as a dps tank, but a straight up tank. I'd have to disagree that survival is only 1/4 better.

 

I have a sage a gunslinger a sentinel and a vanguard tank. By far my vanguard has the highest survival. Sage melts in about 2 seconds under focused fire, GS maybe 2.5 seconds. The sentinel if I'm popping CD's can survive a bit longer, call it 3-4 seconds under focused fire. My vanguard? 15-20 seconds when I pop all my CD's. Usually long enough to keep them from capping an objective until my team shows back up.

 

if a tank pt gets focused, unless he jet charges out of there he is going down in seconds. energy shield is just as effective as sorc bubble without guard or heals on the pt. only time energy shield is worth a darn is if you have guard, taunt, and healing on you. other than that, if you pop it at say....50% hp you will only mitigate about 2k damage from the CD.

 

the difference in survivability between my pyro pt and my CP pt is marginal at best except for jet charge, which has saved my bacon tons of times.

 

in fact, a sorc has a better chance of surviving a focus train by himself than a pt. sorcs escape getting pulled into 30+ players in ilum all the time, pts have to sit there and take it if they are not tank or tank/dps hybrid as pts have zero escape tools baseline.

Edited April 10, 2012 by Ryotknife