No Cross Realm LFG tool please!

[Kucerakov]

I could say the same thing for people who dismiss video evidence in favor of made up maths.

 

Please point me to the part where there are "made up maths". The numbers are made up, yes. The math is not. What comprises a group is not. How many groups you can form from a certain number of people is not. And the video is EVIDENCE of exactly nothing.

 

Do you understand that the leaders of the largest 100 guilds in the game have no need for a cross server tool? Do you not understand how it would be advantageous to the leader of the largest group in a specific server to not allow cross server? On their server, their guild is something of a hegemony, whereas if you have cross server, their influence on the people on their server decreases drastically. If you have the only well in town and everyone has to get your okay to drink, will you vote for or against aqueducts? Well nothing is 100% but I'm thinking against...

 

When they cheered they might as well have cheered "Yay! We remain significant!"

 

That. Video. Substantiates. Nothing.

 

Get it through your head.

[Touchbass]

Please point me to the part where there are "made up maths". The numbers are made up, yes. The math is not. What comprises a group is not. How many groups you can form from a certain number of people is not. And the video is EVIDENCE of exactly nothing.

 

Do you understand that the leaders of the largest 100 guilds in the game have no need for a cross server tool? Do you not understand how it would be advantageous to the leader of the largest group in a specific server to not allow cross server? On their server, their guild is something of a hegemony, whereas if you have cross server, their influence on the people on their server decreases drastically. If you have the only well in town and everyone has to get your okay to drink, will you vote for or against aqueducts? Well nothing is 100% but I'm thinking against...

 

When they cheered they might as well have cheered "Yay! We remain significant!"

 

That. Video. Substantiates. Nothing.

 

Get it through your head.

 

Why would the leaders of the largest guilds need a X-LFD? It's not for them. They can still group within their guild. Problem solved.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Touchbass

[Vlaxitov]

We had this discussion back in TBC in WoW, people like you tried to stop good people from enjoying the game. We beat you in WoW, beat you in Rift and we will beat you again here. You're not wanted.

 

 

You're getting to be a barrel of laughs and inevidably the joke will be on you as games like these become more and more mediocre as they clearly have. Yep the 30+ who likes to play games alot demographic isn't wanted. Good luck with that.

[Malukye]

Why does it have to be one or the other...all or nothing? Why can't the group finder have options for selecting memebers from your server or all servers? Why does it only have to be one way?

 

I do not understand this argument whatsoever.

[Vlaxitov]

I love it when people quote things that they can't demonstrate. There is no way possible that people can have 4-6h hour sessions on average. People barely have 4 hours+ during the weekdays to themselves before they have to to bed so that information is false. I work in Market Research so they are spinning the numbers, I don't trust people who lie.

 

Then you should do your research before you run your mouth.

 

http://torwars.com/2012/02/25/swtor-numbers-average-playtime-is-4-6-hrs-sunday-most-popular/

 

That or else you're basically saying that the people at BW are liars.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Vlaxitov

[Skirata_Kal]

I could say the same thing for people who dismiss video evidence in favor of made up maths.

 

Server populations aren't made up maths. <crickets> after typing in "LF1M dps and gtg for raid x" isn't made up math. 20 people at lvl 50 on fleet and still no HM's happening (either they're afk, in gtn, have general turned off due to Barrens chat like quality, are pvping, etc) isn't made up math...and why am I trying to argue with a troll...need to learn to quit that sorry.

[Touchbass]

You're getting to be a barrel of laughs and inevidably the joke will be on you as games like these become more and more mediocre as they clearly have. Yep the 30+ who likes to play games alot demographic isn't wanted. Good luck with that.

 

Mediocre? Allowing people to play the game who have a life outside of it is mediocre?

[Vlaxitov]

Mediocre? Allowing people to play the game who have a life outside of it is mediocre?

 

How do you even know you play this game less hours than I?

[Skirata_Kal]

Why does it have to be one or the other...all or nothing? Why can't the group finder have options for selecting memebers from your server or all servers? Why does it only have to be one way?

 

I do not understand this argument whatsoever.

 

It doesn't have to be that way. I'd support having those options. Some of us just like debating too much me thinks (and yes I include myself in that).

[chaosdefined]

Then you should do your research before you run your mouth.

 

 

Coming from the guy who was looking at the subscription graph wrong and has yet to admit that?

[Touchbass]

Then you should do your research before you run your mouth.

 

http://torwars.com/2012/02/25/swtor-numbers-average-playtime-is-4-6-hrs-sunday-most-popular/

 

That or else you're basically saying that the people at BW are liars.

 

I've done my research, I work in Market Research. Bioware doesn't do Market Research, they contract their research out to 3rd parties who inform Bioware of their results of their surveying and data collection methods. The same Market Research company told Bioware that they had 3-4 months till people would be in such high volumes at 50. That is why Bioware thought they could get away without a strong dungeon finder off the bat. So that company is a bunch of morons.

 

I'm not saying the research is lying, it's how it's represented. Saying people play 4-6 hours on average is different then saying playing 4-6 every time. There is no way people play 4-6 hours on average from Monday-Thursday, it's not just possible. I forget sometimes that people don't have my background so I have to explain somethings sometimes. Hope that clears it up.

[Orizuru]

Way too nitpicky, which is in line with the cross-server camp.

 

In the lack of extensive research, the only way to prove that cross-server LFD has a harmful effect on the community is based on the experience of other people.

 

 

So now you've gone from proof requires extensive research to personal opinion to other people's opinions.

 

I'm not being nitpicky. I'm trying to understand your point of view. It's very challenging though because you have been waffling for more than a few pages now.

[Skirata_Kal]

A cross realm LFG and LFR isn't going to kill the community because you can't kill what doesn't exist. This game has no community. Just a large mob of unfocused individuals.

 

Thumbsup +1

[Touchbass]

How do you even know you play this game less hours than I?

 

I've barely logged in for weeks like the rest of my friends, lol. I think that's a fairly reasonable premise.

[Vlaxitov]

I've barely logged in for weeks like the rest of my friends, lol. I think that's a fairly reasonable premise.

 

I'd say were in that same boat then and if the game was good enough aside from there being x-server lfg or not, would that be the case? I know I can honestly say that if it had x-server and was still really good despite that, I would play more and re up my sub.

 

You said you had your way with Rift yet that time you claim is soo valuable to you is being spent arguing about having your way with SWTOR instead of playing Rift. Looks like you didn't really get your way with Rift.

[Vlaxitov]

I'm not saying the research is lying, it's how it's represented. Saying people play 4-6 hours on average is different then saying playing 4-6 every time. There is no way people play 4-6 hours on average from Monday-Thursday, it's not just possible. I forget sometimes that people don't have my background so I have to explain somethings sometimes. Hope that clears it up.

 

On the other hand you're not misreprenting anything when saying the guys at the guild summit "look like they play 5-6 hours a day" when you don't know for a fact that they do right? I would challenge you to give me reason to play this game 5-6 hours a day even if that was what you were into.

[Craixis]

Personally, I hate the idea of X server LFG.

I understand it allows people to run more, but at the same time, you're not able to limit who you get grouped with.

Now, back in WoW, I used to play a Hunter before the LFD showed up. I ended up finding a guild I loved to hang with because there wasn't any cross server #$^%, I leveled up in a friend's guild which happened to fall apart when I got to 80.

When I joined UC, I was able to show how I could handle raids, I learned quickly and I knew my class (to the point where I was doing things that barely got us through a few boss fights). I would've never gotten into UC had they not been looking for PuGs in trade chat (nor would there be a point of me caring if I did meet them in a random raid, as they may not have been on my server in the first place).

Skip to Cataclysm, my Hunter has yet to make it through a Random Heroic PuG without a guildie there...

 

That being said, my warrior (a tank), after he got to 85 was running and clearing Heroic dungeons non-stop. He, in a week, was decked out in better gear then my hunter was in 3 months, just because I could control whether or not the group would fall apart.

I loved playing my hunter more, but if the tank left, then good luck finding a new one who will help you through the dungeon, as the waits were 30 minutes long (and more often then not the tank left right after the boss). The closest I came to finishing a non guild PuG run was in Grim Batol, where the other DPS wouldn't focus down the adds on the final fight and would try to out DPS the boss (which, if you know the fight, the Adds massively heal the boss a few seconds after reaching their destination).

Now, I was on a relatively small server (Thunderhorn)... I am not a fan of the idea of X server LFG vs Server Side LFG. If I can see a guy on my server is good, and not in a guild, I could potentially recruit him, to run with him again. If I find a guy like that on another server, what good does that do me?

 

There's 2 sides to every coin, sure I could try to run 10 dungeons a night if I wanted to, but as I said, while doing that, my hunter has never seen the end of a PuG group, EVER... I have to run with Guildies to get him gear (and there was much guild drama which caused a split which just so happen to hit when I was without internet for a very long time). On my tank, no problems whatsoever, because people would stay around as long as I stayed... but there are many who aren't that committed, and that's the major problem I have with the group finder overall. It doesn't matter that I get into more groups, if the group never finishes an instance, then what's the $#^%in' point? Leveling up I never had a problem with it, I'll be honest, the lower level content wasn't difficult, so people were willing to truck through it. But Heroics?

 

There's no reason for people to stay in the group after LFD finds a group, at least server side you can /ignore the person or warn your guildies about them, but X server, you can't do jack... You see them again you may have to regroup, which takes another half an hour of your time. You may end up like my Hunter and have to be shelved because people aren't willing to reach the end of an instance... and this is supposed to make the game better?

 

LFD killed WoW for me, really... I'm not saying I wouldn't want a LFG, but at the same time I want people who get in the group to be willing to commit to reach the end of the dungeon. If you're not willing to commit, it hurts me and others who might have limited time to play as it is (really, the Dungeon Finder did NOT help me in any regards for trying to find groups and see content, and talking with other DPS guildies, it was the same way if they ran alone). In order for me to see content, I HAD to level up a tank (which was in low supply at the time), which took time and effort (and ultimately, I love playing Arms more then Prot... Bladestorm OP). If I play a game, I want to PLAY the game, I don't want it to feel like a second job, and LFD has been nothing but stress for me.

Really, if the content isn't brain dead easy, then X Server LFG is a terrible idea, as people will play the blame game and leave group at the drop of a dime if they can't get carried through it with no effort. I would like the idea of having to commit to a group to finish content, but there is no good solution to keep people wanting to stay with a group that isn't amazingly over geared or running the dungeon with no effort. I can't count the number of guys I had to kick when I was a tank because they were raging so hard at everyone in the group when we wiped (I'd rather a bad player with a good additude then a good player whose a *******).

 

That's the sense of Community people want, not "oh we're all brothers" or stuff like that, but knowing the people you're with are willing to stick it out if you're making progress. Or knowing which tanks are willing to run with newer or not as amazing players, or who can seemingly do the impossible (Suntreader is a tank in my guild whose known as one of the better tanks in Thunderhorn. He was already raid geared by the time my hunter hit 85, problem is he works shift work, and often wasn't on when I was on. He could solo the second boss in Grim Batol from half HP in Heroic, he taught me everything to know about playing my warrior, etc. He's an amazing guy, and I met him because he was on my server). The point is, I want to know I can trust the people I'm with, or if I can't, have some way not to see them again, X server, it's impossible.

[Kucerakov]

Personally, I hate the idea of X server LFG.

I understand it allows people to run more, but at the same time, you're not able to limit who you get grouped with.

Now, back in WoW, I used to play a Hunter before the LFD showed up. I ended up finding a guild I loved to hang with because there wasn't any cross server #$^%, I leveled up in a friend's guild which happened to fall apart when I got to 80.

When I joined UC, I was able to show how I could handle raids, I learned quickly and I knew my class (to the point where I was doing things that barely got us through a few boss fights). I would've never gotten into UC had they not been looking for PuGs in trade chat (nor would there be a point of me caring if I did meet them in a random raid, as they may not have been on my server in the first place).

Skip to Cataclysm, my Hunter has yet to make it through a Random Heroic PuG without a guildie there...

 

That being said, my warrior (a tank), after he got to 85 was running and clearing Heroic dungeons non-stop. He, in a week, was decked out in better gear then my hunter was in 3 months, just because I could control whether or not the group would fall apart.

I loved playing my hunter more, but if the tank left, then good luck finding a new one who will help you through the dungeon, as the waits were 30 minutes long (and more often then not the tank left right after the boss). The closest I came to finishing a non guild PuG run was in Grim Batol, where the other DPS wouldn't focus down the adds on the final fight and would try to out DPS the boss (which, if you know the fight, the Adds massively heal the boss a few seconds after reaching their destination).

Now, I was on a relatively small server (Thunderhorn)... I am not a fan of the idea of X server LFG vs Server Side LFG. If I can see a guy on my server is good, and not in a guild, I could potentially recruit him, to run with him again. If I find a guy like that on another server, what good does that do me?

 

There's 2 sides to every coin, sure I could try to run 10 dungeons a night if I wanted to, but as I said, while doing that, my hunter has never seen the end of a PuG group, EVER... I have to run with Guildies to get him gear (and there was much guild drama which caused a split which just so happen to hit when I was without internet for a very long time). On my tank, no problems whatsoever, because people would stay around as long as I stayed... but there are many who aren't that committed, and that's the major problem I have with the group finder overall. It doesn't matter that I get into more groups, if the group never finishes an instance, then what's the $#^%in' point? Leveling up I never had a problem with it, I'll be honest, the lower level content wasn't difficult, so people were willing to truck through it. But Heroics?

 

There's no reason for people to stay in the group after LFD finds a group, at least server side you can /ignore the person or warn your guildies about them, but X server, you can't do jack... You see them again you may have to regroup, which takes another half an hour of your time. You may end up like my Hunter and have to be shelved because people aren't willing to reach the end of an instance... and this is supposed to make the game better?

 

LFD killed WoW for me, really... I'm not saying I wouldn't want a LFG, but at the same time I want people who get in the group to be willing to commit to reach the end of the dungeon. If you're not willing to commit, it hurts me and others who might have limited time to play as it is (really, the Dungeon Finder did NOT help me in any regards for trying to find groups and see content, and talking with other DPS guildies, it was the same way if they ran alone). In order for me to see content, I HAD to level up a tank (which was in low supply at the time), which took time and effort (and ultimately, I love playing Arms more then Prot... Bladestorm OP). If I play a game, I want to PLAY the game, I don't want it to feel like a second job, and LFD has been nothing but stress for me.

Really, if the content isn't brain dead easy, then X Server LFG is a terrible idea, as people will play the blame game and leave group at the drop of a dime if they can't get carried through it with no effort. I would like the idea of having to commit to a group to finish content, but there is no good solution to keep people wanting to stay with a group that isn't amazingly over geared or running the dungeon with no effort. I can't count the number of guys I had to kick when I was a tank because they were raging so hard at everyone in the group when we wiped (I'd rather a bad player with a good additude then a good player whose a *******).

 

That's the sense of Community people want, not "oh we're all brothers" or stuff like that, but knowing the people you're with are willing to stick it out if you're making progress. Or knowing which tanks are willing to run with newer or not as amazing players, or who can seemingly do the impossible (Suntreader is a tank in my guild whose known as one of the better tanks in Thunderhorn. He was already raid geared by the time my hunter hit 85, problem is he works shift work, and often wasn't on when I was on. He could solo the second boss in Grim Batol from half HP in Heroic, he taught me everything to know about playing my warrior, etc. He's an amazing guy, and I met him because he was on my server). The point is, I want to know I can trust the people I'm with, or if I can't, have some way not to see them again, X server, it's impossible.

 

First of all, no it isn't. If you ignore people in WoW you never get randoms with that person again, not that you would otherwise.

 

Second, instead of risking peopl eleaving before the end and wasting your time, you would rather go back to no lfg, and spend that time spamming general for a group and never kill even one boss? Super.

[Snoodmaster]

Really, if the content isn't brain dead easy, then X Server LFG is a terrible idea, as people will play the blame game and leave group at the drop of a dime if they can't get carried through it with no effort.

 

You do realize that's a problem with the Cata difficulty curve right? Not cross-server LFG. Hard modes in SWTOR aren't hard enough for people to bail on without at least trying, and if they do, they won't care if its single server or cross-server. People bail when they don't think the run will be successful. It doesn't matter whether it's a single server group or a cross server group, if they are not likely to get the rewards they signed up for, they just won't put in the effort.

 

That's the sense of Community people want, not "oh we're all brothers" or stuff like that, but knowing the people you're with are willing to stick it out if you're making progress. The point is, I want to know I can trust the people I'm with, or if I can't, have some way not to see them again, X server, it's impossible.

 

Again, even with a cross-server LFG, you can still do this. You can still run with tanks you know from your server and just pug in other people from other servers. And if there isn't any tank on your server willing to queue with you, then you wouldn't have a group at all anyway. Expanding the list of players you can group with does not decrease your options, it increases them.

[Touchbass]

First of all, no it isn't. If you ignore people in WoW you never get randoms with that person again, not that you would otherwise.

 

Second, instead of risking peopl eleaving before the end and wasting your time, you would rather go back to no lfg, and spend that time spamming general for a group and never kill even one boss? Super.

 

If you play the X-LFD properly you'll always have a kick vote up for when you need it. Only once have I ever run into a situation where there where four guildies causing problems and only me. I still managed to kick the problem person, I know a few tricks. I was healing as a priest, so I sent up a kick vote for the tank saying "stupid fail priest", there buddies, much to their ire, kicked the tank thinking it was me. So yeah the system works fine if you aren't a douche. Yes you'll hear some nasty comments once in awhile but it's better then waiting around doing nothing.

[navarh]

There's no reason for people to stay in the group after LFD finds a group

so you saying that people use LFG like this: they enter queue, system form group for them and than they leave from group? what?

 

If you play the X-LFD properly you'll always have a kick vote up for when you need it.

btw i learned about existance of that kick-timer on this forums, no joking

 

from anti-lfg crowd, i'm still wonder who is more antisocial? me or ppl who complain that kick timer is to long and do not allow them kick all that "bad players" in that_game LFG

Edited April 5, 2012 by navarh

[Valkirus]

OMG yes pls.. PLEASE add a multi server LFG tool..

 

I have 6 level 50s on The razor and with such low population im only able to get a group for HMs maybe once per week during prime time.

 

50 on fleet, and 3-4 people per planet is insanly low population.

 

PLEASE add this ASAP!

 

Here you go...another good example of why TOR needs a cross server LFG tool.

[Touchbass]

Personally, I'd pick these:

 

Against LFD

 

1) Social pressure to do the right thing

2) Long lasting friendships

3) Sense of community

 

 

For LFD

 

1) Allows people to play the game with a flexible schedule

2) It will stablize low population servers to make them self-sufficient

3) No more Catch 22 garbage and bypasses elitism, before X-LFD in WoW on my server you couldn't do a heroic unless you had gear from them so it could be a "quick fast run".

4) Access to low level content, prior to the X-LFD no one saw any of the dungeons prior to level cap

 

The idea is we want to keep the big 3 while still allowing the bottom three to occur. WoW has done a great job with cross server grouping. You can make friends with people and do additional runs with them whenever you want. If you really like the person you pay for a transfer. Bioware should be expanding on what Blizzard is doing, not shying away.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Touchbass

[Valkirus]

Could we avoid irrelevant and ad hominem attacks like this please? It adds nothing to the discussion and detracts from the very real and very valid points being made.

 

 

So far, from what I can gather from the discussion, the argument seems to be breakign down like this:

Anti Cross-Server side is against cross-server LFG for two basic reasons:

1. Being grouped with people from other servers will not allow server-side peer pressure to punish wrongdoers.

2. Being grouped with people from other servers will not allow the formation of long-lasting friendships and links with the people they get grouped with.

 

Pro Cross-server is for cross-server LFG for two basic reason:

1. The many low population servers do not currently have enough people for everyone to get in a group, especially at non-prime times.

2. Implementing a broken system that you know won't fix the problem is just a waste of time.

 

Most of the debate seems to revolve around either supporting or refuting one of these four basic arguments.

 

Anyone from either camp have any extra arguments to add to these? If not, maybe we can discuss each of these in depth and try to find either find a solution that address everyone's concerns, or at least argue coherently and logically.

 

Yeah...Under the Anti Cross Server side;

 

Point 1...the players under the Anti-Cross server tool are not having any major issues with finding groups for runs. They ether are on a large pop server or in a active guild and are ok with having to play at a time when the guild wants to do events.

 

Point 2..have had some bad experences in the past with players they did not know how to deal with. Or are concerned they cannot grow as a guild if several players would rather just log on and get thier Flashpoint done without needing them.

 

Under the Pro Cross server side;

 

Point 1..Some have jobs, family, etc,,so playing when a guild wants them to is not a good option. They need a tool which will allow them to logon and get to do the end game content they wish to run done at a time when it fits thier time schedule.

 

Point 2..Pure logic tells them a LFG tool only on a server side will not have a large enough pool of players from which to make up a grp to do the content on low pop servers. Implementation of a server side only tool will not solve the wait times on low pop servers.

 

That pretty much sums it up I think. But many posters in this thread have come up with a ton of positive reasons to have a cross server LFG tool better than what I just posted IMO.

[Touchbass]

Yeah, if you don't make it cross server you aren't helping the people who need it. When my buddy comes home at 4am he logs into WoW so he can play instead of SWTOR cause there is no one available in SWTOR at the time and in WoW there is.