A Request for Raid-Wide Combat Logs

[Blotter]

we live in free country (for the most part) you do not have the obligation to invite me in your group if you don't want to, no one would judge you.

 

If a raid leader want only people that share their log, he's taking the huge task to put a rid together and lead it, he decide how to shape the raid he's trying to make the way he want

 

who are you to tell him what he must do, who he must take.

 

You don't want to join a group that want you to share your log, fine, it is your right and no one will dispute it, why would you force someone to take you in their raid, you don't meet their requirement, the raid is not for you.

 

find another raid or better, start and lead your own raid with your own lead.

 

 

It is a win win situation, you don't raid with the log-sharing crowd, you only raid with people not requiring to share log and you are more happy (and i'm sure the log sharing crowd is happy not to have you in the group too)

 

 

 

it is a win-win

 

 

 

just an option in the preference to enable/disable sharing your log info with your party/operation. it's as simple as that.

 

Youre not making any sense at all.

 

Raids/Guilds make their own rules. If you want to be in a guild that requires sharing the uploadable logs, then yuo can voluntarily do that. I am (or at least will be once 1.2 comes out). If you want to be in one that doesn't, you can do that too. I'm unaware of any way for someone to "force" a guild or raid that wants logfile sharing to accept them if they don't want to share. There's not way to force yourself in if you don't comply, so everyone's protected. No idea what you're talking about in terms of "telling the raid leader what to do" or whatever. That will already have been decided long before putting the raid together. This has nothing to do with "telling a raid leader that he has to take people who won't share their information." Because, ummmm, you can't...there's no way to force your way into a raid or a guild.

 

What BW is implementing will 100% allow for people to make the choice as to whether or not they share their info with their raid or with their guild or even with pugs if they want...altho the last is quite unlikely, and that was the point. Anyway, this wasnt' about raids or guilds...they operate with their own rules and you agree to them or you don't...you go with them or you don't. This is primarily a concern, one which is made even more powerful by the demands for a LFG auto-grouping tool, that has to do with people finding random groups...as many people like to do (even though I generally don't myself).

 

What it won't do, because the way BW is implementing it it's not accessible simply by flipping a toggle, is allow people to demand that you automatically share it. With a toggle, they can complain that you won't flip the simple switch. With it being solely an uploadable file resident on your home computer, requiring you to upload it and give them access or email it to them, then it would be patently ridiculous for people to judge you for not sharing....whereas if it's just a switch, they can pretend to be reasonable for demanding that yuo share. What's hard to understand about that?

 

Your way:

 

"He won't toggle sharing on, so he must be a baddy who wants to hide that he sucks!!! Blacklist!!!"

 

That sounds pretty much exactly the same as the people who use the actual numbers from a log or meter to blabber in their guild chat or on general chat etc., to insult or demean someone for their dps numbers or put them on the underground blacklist of who is a "baddy" who shouldn't be grouped with in pugs...I've even seen that kind of behavior used to blacklist people from multiple guilds. They get to say "c'mon...it's just a simple toggle...why you being unreasonable and refusing to share?" and put all the blame on the person who wants their info kept private. Here, let me translate for you how your suggestion becomes the basis for criticizing people who won't share, thus creating peer pressure for EVERYONE to share whether they like it or not...using your own words:

 

"[it's] just an option in the preference to enable/disable sharing your log info with your party/operation. it's as simple as that."

 

YOUR WORDS. Now, the dude who doesn't want to flip the switch "as simple as that" gets ridiculed...instead of the poor sap who had low dps getting ridiculed...altho the latter probably ends up ridiculed in the long run anyway because your toggle/switch option would force everyone to start sharing in the long run.

 

BW's way:

 

"He won't email me his log files or upload them and give me the password so I can review his numbers before pugging with him so he must be bad!!!! Blacklist!!!"

 

That sounds remarkably ridiculous, doesn't it? Why in the heck should I let you know who I am by emailing you or give you a password to my account on the 3rd party server that parses the logs just for a pug? Demanding that I do so or suffer criticism and labels for refusing to do so makes YOU sound like the unreasonable party, not me...and that's the way it should be. Who the heck are you to demand that people go through that kind of bother just to play the game and pug an HM or two? So, BW's compromise way prevents the peer pressure demands your toggle/switch would cause and lets peole who don't want to share their info have a comfort level that wouldn't be present if community standards and demands became "you must toggle the sharing on." The switch woudl just open the door to everything BW was trying to prevent in terms of a compromise on behalf of those who wanted to be able to keep things private and not suffer for it.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Blotter

[FeralAgression]

None of that is what he said, all he advocated was group with people who have a your playstlye. Nobody is forcing anyone into any situation.

[Vankris]

 

Now, the dude who doesn't want to flip the switch "as simple as that" gets ridiculed...instead of the poor sap who had low dps getting ridiculed...altho the latter probably ends up ridiculed in the long run anyway because your toggle/switch option would force everyone to start sharing in the long run.

 

 

 

i don't understand you, i really don't.

you are clearly with the people that does not want the log to be seen, i can tell.

so you don't want to raid with the "recount lover", you won't be happy, you won't have good time.

 

So them not inviting you is actually offering you a service, they helping you avoiding them. You would never raid with them anyway.

So really i don't understand. If you run in PUG (i assume we are talking about pug), and they ask you,

 

"in order to come with us, we have to be able to see what you are doing, so activate your log sharing option"

, you just reply

"sorry mate, i don't mix with your kind, find another one"

and you go your merry way, find a more suitable raid for you and everyone is happy.

 

Yes they may think, rightly or wrongly, he must be a bad player, that is why he did not want to share is log.

 

But you don't care because

1. you're a mature person that doesn't need other people approval, you know what's right for you

2. you have found a group of like minded people and having fun with

3. you know that they wrong cause you know that you are good (enough)

so yes, the people that want log raid together and the people that doesn't want log raid together,

 

win-win

 

 

 

 

now why is it important to have such option

 

Sending by email or drop box your log to someone that would merge them and parse them is tedious work for everyone involve, the one sending and the one receiving.

 

it also take time, often people wan't to see log right after the raid.

 

and it's prone to mishapp (someone forgott his/her log, lost connection, got replaced mid run, file got corrupted, deleted somehow...)

 

A simple option in the game could solve so many problem. That simple option would by itself save hours upon hours or file formatting and storing from guild official.

 

the game should alleviate such painful work around so the player can focus on what's most impotant, the fun.

[Blotter]

None of that is what he said, all he advocated was group with people who have a your playstlye. Nobody is forcing anyone into any situation.

 

I swear you guys are just being purposefully obtuse. That's not what he said. He said there shoudl be a switch/toggle you can flip that shares your combat log info with your group/raid.

 

Yes, that would be very easy and certainly, with only a superficial look at it, seems to "solve the problem."

 

I then explained, speaking from experience in terms of watching how these communities behave and how they use these kinds of "tools," why even having the option woudl turn into a means for insulting/ridiculing people and eventually lead to a "community standard" that you either flip the toggle to share your info or you're blacklisted and considered bad.

 

Again...what's hard to understand about that? It's as plain as day and predictable as the sunrise that people would use it that way if the switch/toggle were implemented. Do you really think BW didn't consider whether such an obvious option should be added and whether it would be a good thing or would defeat the purpose of trying to give people the option to actually maintain privacy without ridicule? Do you really think that they didn't reach the same conclusion I'm telling you...that people would treat the failure to flip the switch and share as a "baddy" offense...which is why they are only allowing it to be shared via upload, etc.? They're dumb...I'll give you that...and they seem to miss obvious things all the time...but I'm pretty sure they caught this one based on the comments they've made about why they're doing it the way they are.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Blotter

[xenofire]

I feel that this arguement in general is a moot point. Bioware has released difficult content that requires a certain amount of tuning to be successful in hard mode, it will be even more difficult to handle in nightmare mode. That being said, they realize the burden of maintaining excellence is at the guild leader level. I think the current combat logs was just them being kind and giving us something that took them very little time to implement so they could work on other priorities, and I have no doubts raid wide combat logs are coming in the next few months, it just feels inevitable.

 

Until then, there are developers working on ways to parse and collect logs in real time.

[Vankris]

I feel that this arguement in general is a moot point. Bioware has released difficult content that requires a certain amount of tuning to be successful in hard mode, it will be even more difficult to handle in nightmare mode. That being said, they realize the burden of maintaining excellence is at the guild leader level. I think the current combat logs was just them being kind and giving us something that took them very little time to implement so they could work on other priorities, and I have no doubts raid wide combat logs are coming in the next few months, it just feels inevitable.

 

Until then, there are developers working on ways to parse and collect logs in real time.

 

i agree with you.

 

when really tough, challenging fight will come and guild that are organized/dedicated enough to have a sort of merge/parse combat log system in place, will have a clear advantage.

 

then the whine will rise on the forum, people that today say the personal combat log are fine, those same people will be the first to come crying for a global combat log cause the merging process is too complex, too hardcore, too out-of-the-game (that latter one, i would agree too).

 

just waid and see, it will come

Edited April 2, 2012 by Vankris

[dunlop]

A site like World of Logs would be fantastic. Once you learn the psuedo code you can check every aspec of a raid encounter

[Blotter]

i don't understand you, i really don't.

you are clearly with the people that does not want the log to be seen, i can tell.

so you don't want to raid with the "recount lover", you won't be happy, you won't have good time.

 

So them not inviting you is actually offering you a service, they helping you avoiding them. You would never raid with them anyway.

So really i don't understand. If you run in PUG (i assume we are talking about pug), and they ask you,

 

"in order to come with us, we have to be able to see what you are doing, so activate your log sharing option"

, you just reply

"sorry mate, i don't mix with your kind, find another one"

and you go your merry way, find a more suitable raid for you and everyone is happy.

 

Yes they may think, rightly or wrongly, he must be a bad player, that is why he did not want to share is log.

 

But you don't care because

1. you're a mature person that doesn't need other people approval, you know what's right for you

2. you have found a group of like minded people and having fun with

3. you know that they wrong cause you know that you are good (enough)

so yes, the people that want log raid together and the people that doesn't want log raid together,

 

win-win

 

 

 

 

now why is it important to have such option

 

Sending by email or drop box your log to someone that would merge them and parse them is tedious work for everyone involve, the one sending and the one receiving.

 

it also take time, often people wan't to see log right after the raid.

 

and it's prone to mishapp (someone forgott his/her log, lost connection, got replaced mid run, file got corrupted, deleted somehow...)

 

A simple option in the game could solve so many problem. That simple option would by itself save hours upon hours or file formatting and storing from guild official.

 

the game should alleviate such painful work around so the player can focus on what's most impotant, the fun.

 

1. I'm not "with" the people against it. I'm supporting them because I see their point. I fully expect to and will more than gladly share my log information with my guild and raid teams and to do so by uploading my file. I'll then have the data I want to look at. Do I want to do that with random pugs and potentially have to listen to some 14 year old meatball with a toughguy complex yammer at me while his pubescent voice is changing because he heard other people acting like that and now thinks it's the cool way to be? No. Not a chance. Nor do I want to listen to that same tweener telling me I must suck solely because I won't flip the switch and share my info with the pug. If he wants to ridicule me or others, he can sound like a dufus demanding that I send him emails and let him look at my uploadable files...then we'll see who looks like an overweening epeen jerk. People should be allowed to keep their data to themselves if they want and should be allowed to do so without ridicule. So while I will share in limited instances, I totally understand people wanting to avoid the potential bother of sharing in ALL instances.

 

2. I don't buy your argument about time for a second. We had 25 and 40 man raids uploading data to be parsed within minutes after a run in WoW and it was as much work as waiting for the website to crunch the data together and spit out a simple report. Not difficult whatsoever. Nor is it extremely time consuming given the speed of connections and computers and the likely size (tiny) of these data files. Click the upload page, browse to file, click upload, poof...someone goes and picks out a report format or criteria and boom, it spits back a data report. 10 minutes tops if your guild.raid isn't full of half-chimps who can't manage to do it quickly.

 

3. Again, you completely ignore the point that if you add the switch, sharing will become a peer pressure demand and failure to flip the switch to share will be counted against you. Yes, you can "not run with them if you don't want to do it their way." Except that would start to exclude lots of people and divide the community. Suddenly, you have most of the community demanding that people share their logs...peer pressure that completely defeats the compromise BW is trying to give people who want to keep their data private and not deal with elitists etc. So, then what happens? People end up having to deal with it anyway AND/OR you get a small subset community that is ostracized and can only find groups with each other because everyone else is demanding that they share their data by flipping the switch. Not fair...and it doesn't encourage people to be grouping with as many different people as possible and everyone having an equal shot at getting into HM pugs etc. That is why I mentioned people demanding a random LFG auto-grouping tool. Are we going to go ahead an add a checkbox option to that too so that it does the divisiveness for us?

 

I seriously don't understand why you insist on ignoring that "flip the share switch or be ridiculed" would replace "nah nah nah...your dps isn't at least X so you're a baddy and I'm not grouping with you." What is hard to understand about that? These peer pressure type community standards become very pervasive very fast in these games and they are not easily thwarted like you're pretending. You can already see it all over the forums in threads like this anyway, with people who demand combat logs/dps meters, etc., claiming that the only reason people don't want them is because they suck and want to hide it....which is a recurring theme and argument from people in support of it, and it only serves to prove the concerns voiced by the other side to be justifiable.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Blotter

[Blotter]

I feel that this arguement in general is a moot point. Bioware has released difficult content that requires a certain amount of tuning to be successful in hard mode, it will be even more difficult to handle in nightmare mode. That being said, they realize the burden of maintaining excellence is at the guild leader level. I think the current combat logs was just them being kind and giving us something that took them very little time to implement so they could work on other priorities, and I have no doubts raid wide combat logs are coming in the next few months, it just feels inevitable.

 

Until then, there are developers working on ways to parse and collect logs in real time.

 

This may be true. I can see them maybe implementing the sharing toggle ONLY for raids because of the overwhelming likelihood that it's a guild activity and not being pugged. For the 4-mans, I think it would be very self-defeating as already explained.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Blotter

[Vankris]

Suddenly, you have most of the community demanding that people share their logs...peer pressure that completely defeats the compromise BW is trying to give people

 

i would argue that if most people want log sharing, why not just make it standard? So many have advocate that people wanting global log are just a minority but you're saying it's now "most people". In that case, is game design going against what "most people" want good design?

 

I seriously don't understand why you insist on ignoring that "flip the share switch or be ridiculed" would replace "nah nah nah...your dps isn't at least X so you're a baddy and I'm not grouping with you."

 

it's not that i don't undestand it but i think it's rather childish and i don't understand why you think player base is so childish. i believe it's not. I believe it's quite mature but player from all walk of life and player with all kind of playstyle and play philosophy.

 

if there is really such player saying "flip the share switch or be ridiculed", and you don't want to share your log, don't run with them, i don't see the problem going much further than that.

 

you are not physically in front of the person, what generally happen is

 

- someone look for more player for their PU raid

- you whisp the guy telling that you are willing to participate

- he tells you the rules " no log, no invite"

- you just refuse politely and look for another raid or create your own raid

 

i never go further than that, i don't see anyone keep on whispering you how bad you must be not willing to share your log. The guy would just probably continue to recruit for his raid and forget even your name.

 

Now if you don't refuse politemy but start agressing it

1. you are starting a flame war.

2. you are the one being immature then.

 

but i see this working perfecly. Best world for all.

[Xneco]

in a pug environment: "lf1m hm, must turn on sharing"

 

then don't join that operation if you are afraid of getting your feelings hurt because you are under performing...

Edited April 2, 2012 by Xneco

[Blotter]

i would argue that if most people want log sharing, why not just make it standard? So many have advocate that people wanting global log are just a minority but you're saying it's now "most people". In that case, is game design going against what "most people" want good design?

 

beacuse the problem with it being standard is precisely what we've been discussing in terms of elitists and ridicule etc. Bw compromised. People who want the data and want to share the data can do so. They have nothing left to complain about. People who don't want to share it don't have to and have a little protection from people who want to ridicule them for it because it looks so completely ridiculous to demand that someone share an uploadable file etc. Just because most people want it doesn't mean it's good design. Furthermore, we don't really have any data for which side constitutes the majority and you're just picking on a turn of phrase, somethign that was just idiom, for no good reason.

 

it's not that i don't undestand it but i think it's rather childish and i don't understand why you think player base is so childish. I believe it's not. I believe it's quite mature but player from all walk of life and player with all kind of playstyle and play philosophy.

 

If there is really such player saying "flip the share switch or be ridiculed", and you don't want to share your log, don't run with them, i don't see the problem going much further than that.

 

those last two paragraphs, to me, suggest you haven't spent all that much time in the mmo community in general. The player base is wildly childish, widly argumentative, wildly egotistical and constantly searching for the next way to establish a heirarchy that says "these people over here in this category have 'skill' and are 'hardcore' and those people over there don't." it's the very nature of the beast. Denying it really rings head-in-the-sand to me. Bw recognized this and that's why they tried to accomodate the concerns of people expressing concerns while also giving people access to the data they claimed they needed. The only complaint left is that it's not quite as convenient as they want it to be so they now demand that there needs to be no compromise whatsoever. Who's being unreasonable there? Anyway, there's even been articles in some of the gamer mags about how out of control the gamer community has gotten just look how that poor woman who works for bw got treated a couple weeks back for something she said in an interview years ago. It was crazy and inappropriate...but that's the way they are now.

 

you are not physically in front of the person, what generally happen is

 

- someone look for more player for their pu raid

- you whisp the guy telling that you are willing to participate

- he tells you the rules " no log, no invite"

- you just refuse politely and look for another raid or create your own raid

 

i never go further than that, i don't see anyone keep on whispering you how bad you must be not willing to share your log. The guy would just probably continue to recruit for his raid and forget even your name.

 

Now if you don't refuse politemy but start agressing it

1. You are starting a flame war.

2. You are the one being immature then.

 

But i see this working perfecly. Best world for all.

 

 

12345

[Blotter]

then don't join that operation if you are afraid of getting your feelings hurt because you are under performing...

 

So it's a good thing for BW to give kids an unreasonable means of excluding others and dividing the community along lines like that? Interesting theory. One would've thought that people shoudl just play the freekin game and get the sticks out of their tooshes, pug with who you can get a hold of and that's that. What are you gonna do if/when they implement a random auto-grouping LFG tool like everyone is demanding? Break the groups you get put in if people won't share info? Again, self-defeating from the developers' standpoint. They want you grouped and running content and not spending your time creating an imaginary social heirarchy that leads to unfun behaviors. And again again, BW already seems to have recognized all this based on their own statements, so what's your boggle?

[zwhimsicalz]

Blotter you come off as someone who has been previously shunned or turned away from high preforming guilds and players based off your lack of performance....Just my 2 cents... Edited April 2, 2012 by zwhimsicalz

[oredith]

let me sum up,

 

softcore:

 

"Bioware gave the tools for the hardcore players to get the data they want, but lets people like us live in anonymity if we so choose."

 

hardcore:

 

"Bioware gave us a half *** tool that requires additional steps to be truly useful."

 

this is a case where the two will never see eye to eye. I do wish there was simply a toggle to allow people to share, but i think that's simply too complicated for BW to implement without some large delay.

[Shingara]

let me sum up,

 

softcore:

 

"Bioware gave the tools for the hardcore players to get the data they want, but lets people like us live in anonymity if we so choose."

 

hardcore:

 

"Bioware gave us a half *** tool that requires additional steps to be truly useful."

 

this is a case where the two will never see eye to eye. I do wish there was simply a toggle to allow people to share, but i think that's simply too complicated for BW to implement without some large delay.

 

Let me sum it up, people cry and bioware say grow up, your not having your toy no matter how hard you stamp your feet and throw the teddy.

 

And i think that clears up the debate. Because the eletists ideals formed within this topic only shows bioware that they are following the right path that they are along now.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Shingara

[Jaymanus]

I've done all of those things and am also an adult. So naturally, I'm for public combat logs.

 

Then again, I feel people who are adamantly against combat logs are either afraid their performance won't measure up, or know it won't measure up, and don't want to have to put forth any effort to improve.

 

Anyone who is committed to playing at their best and / or has a desire to improve their play, and that of their group, should be all for easy to use and complete in-game combat logs.

 

You do realize how condescending your comments are right? Too be honest I'm not against or for public combat logs, if they happen they happen no real skin of my back BUT I do understand why some people don't want them.

 

The ONLY arguments I have seen in this thread FOR combat logs is that it "helps people improve" but the current system can already do this so that argument is moot. The other argument is that it's "too hard/too much work" to share the logs in their current form but it has already been stated that people are working on systems that will allow easy sharing of combat logs so that argument is also moot.

 

This whole argument comes down to ONE thing, that you "FOR" public combat logs people seem to be missing.

 

CHOICE

 

let me caps that one again for you.

 

CHOICE

 

In its current form people have the choice to share their logs or not to share them, if you don't want to play with someone who won't share you also have the choice to not play with them. If there are public combat logs everyone's data is free for everyone else to see, and those who don't wish to share are forced too, taking away their choice. Regardless of their reasons or what you may think they may be, they have a right to chose, and you have no right to demand otherwise.

 

If you were an adult as you claim you would understand this. Being an adult is not simply about age, its about how you act, and honestly you and a lot of others in this forum are acting arrogant and condescending, which makes me doubt your "we are adults" claim.

Edited April 2, 2012 by Jaymanus

[Deewe]

@OP good post but how about: NO?

 

Write it as kool as you want some players don't want logs to be checked by others.

 

However you are free to request these players to email you the logs.

 

/thread.

[Feebs]

I love how this thread started with intelligent ideas and has devolved into one side using reason and logic and the other side stomping their feet screaming no louder and louder hoping mommy and daddy listen to them instead.

[Karl-Just-Karl]

/signed

 

I would at least like the option for our group to see how its doing.

[Kororo]

I played with some of the best guilds who had world firsts and server first on raid bosses in rift. Not one of them had problems with abusing dps meters. Mainly cause we had mature guild leaders who were concerned about bringing the best players not the highest dps. Dps logs also were a way of helping each other. We could figure out what someone with a higher dps was doing in order to get better. I watched several under performing players grow thanks to dps parses. If your afraid of being abused by other players cause of your dps then their is clearly something wrong with your guild or raid leader. Its not the fault of logs.

[krinaman]

i agree with you.

 

when really tough, challenging fight will come and guild that are organized/dedicated enough to have a sort of merge/parse combat log system in place, will have a clear advantage.

 

then the whine will rise on the forum, people that today say the personal combat log are fine, those same people will be the first to come crying for a global combat log cause the merging process is too complex, too hardcore, too out-of-the-game (that latter one, i would agree too).

 

just waid and see, it will come

 

Honestly, if an OP comes out that requires me to study group combat logs to beat I simply won't bother with it.

 

You also won't hear any "whine" for group combat logs to beat that raid. You will hear "whines" that the raid is too hard and catering to the 1% which quite frankly would be absolutely correct.

[krinaman]

Its not the fault of logs.

 

And it's not the fault of the hand grenade when children blow themselves up with them. That doesn't mean it's okay to give hand grenades to children.

 

Seriously, "it's not their fault" isn't an argument. At least not a good one. Of course it's not the log's fault, it's an inanimate object. That doesn't make it okay.

 

If they go with group wide logs and by extension group wide DPS meters and turn this game into the DPS, the whole DPS, and nothing but the DPS like WoW it won't be the log's fault. It will be the Dev's fault for putting them in.

[judgeholden]

I'm simply amazed by how many people hate combat logs. I have to assume they've all gotten yelled at for sleeping through a raid, and you've been butt hurt since. Arguing against logs is like saying you don't feel people should have to try to contribute to their team.

 

It's not very hard to see who's sucking it up without logs. Having logs provides tools for those that want to get better. People that don't want to use them generally aren't going to run in the same crowds as those that do. It should be an option. If you want to hide your logs, toggle them off. If a raid requires them, find somewhere else to play. Your play styles aren't suited for each other. Seems pretty straight forward. As the OP said, if you assume logs are going to ruin someone's life you're assuming the worst of people.

 

Every MMO i've played had parsing logs and I've never seen anyone belittled in a pug. I've seen people asked to step up in a progression raid. If the group wiped without a log, the leader would still have to ask people to step up. It's just backing up what people already know with data. We already have stat tracking in warzones. Add scoreboards to raids after each fight. I can see when someone isn't playing their role. If someone wants to partake in a team activity they have an obligation.

 

Parsing makes fights more fun. Gives meaning and challenge to trash. Friendly competition. Sense of growth and accomplishment. And again, if you don't want to use it, don't use it and don't play with those that do. There seems to be enough of you to form your own super group of people against parsing and generally doing good at stuff.

 

Raids are competitive. Just like PVP people need to try to succeed. Story mode will always be there for those that want to hold hands and be casual.

 

TL : DR Group logs are needed.

[Niil]

I'm simply amazed by how many people hate combat logs. I have to assume they've all gotten yelled at for sleeping through a raid, and you've been butt hurt since. Arguing against logs is like saying you don't feel people should have to try to contribute to their team.

 

<snip> ... more comments condescending to people you disagree with ... </snip>

 

Raids are competitive. Just like PVP people need to try to succeed. Story mode will always be there for those that want to hold hands and be casual.

 

TL : DR Group logs are needed.

 

Then you'll be happy to know that group logs are available next patch, pending everyone you group with chooses to give them to you.