Feedback request from James Ohlen - Open World PvP

[Neamhan]

Just some quick feedback:

 

I'm somewhat torn between PvPvE and Faction Population Capped. Either way, it should be faction based (guild based would be terrible) and there should be some evening out factor for the underpopulated faction ('raw' open world would only be slightly less terrible than guild based, as we've seen already with Ilum).

 

The objectives should also be more meaningful than the useless 'control' points in Ilum. Castle sieges are the most fun (or on the context of Star Wars, base sieges). To use DAoC as an example, keeps were fun to take. Roam Emain could be entertaining but ultimately was kind of dull. Capturing relics was of course by far the most epic, but sadly I don't think the engine in this game could handle that. >.>

[sugarnails]

I liked SWG's (pre-NGE) world pvp system of base defending/busting and guild warring, but especially the guild warring. It brought guild members together out of necessity to travel in groups or risk getting "clone camped".

 

I also participated in an epic live pvp event where CSRs/GMs played as Luke and Darth Vader while well over a hundred players from both factions fought along with them.

[JFTremb]

I voted for PVPVE, and i also agree with the people who are saying that we need to encounter the opposing faction more frequently while leveling and doing daillys, that way more "random" and "spur of the moment" world PVP can happen

[SillyTurtle]

I voted for PVPVE, and i also agree with the people who are saying that we need to encounter the opposing faction more frequently while leveling and doing daillys, that way more "random" and "spur of the moment" world PVP can happen

 

My same feelings. My 2nd choice is "raw PvP" for the record. I have to say the results are pretty interesting. Seems like everyone wants a bit of everything listed (now that just goes and make things more difficult, no? lol).

[Lina_Inverse]

I hope the PvPvE option and its popularity are indicators to a MOBA style representation of Ilum. If it was implemented successfully(and I don't claim to know how to do this, though I have some ideas) it could be some of the most fun I've had in large scale PvP in the last five years or so.

 

Worth resubbing in 1.3? (After my inevitable unsub in 1.2 after I check out the legacy system and get bored of q'ing rateds against the 2-3 decent teams on my server) We'll see!

[Satti]

First of all make whole planet PvP so you can control population engaged in PvP not present in area nearby (like Ilum atm.) Add some bases that you can actually capture with a chance for some loot. Also give defenders a chance for similar loot to encourage defending. For example rated War Hero loot chance for attackers, regular War Hero loot chance for defenders if they prevent capture for a given time. Introduce some mechanism to prevent 3 a.m. capping like a lock or even better a certain number of people necessary to do a job.

 

Now here is my point:

 

Based on population difference allow underdog faction to SUMMON COMPANIONS in their base special chamber. When character dies and population is no longer imbalanced she will not be able to summon companion again.

 

In this way you achieve the following:

- partially solve faction imbalance issue with self-balancing mechanism.

- allow epic heroic fights like 4 vs 8 where underdogs can still win without hugging NPC or turret.

- give characters an incentive to gather PvP gear for their companions. War Hero companion anyone?

- make companions useful again after levelling is done.

- you can do that with minimum effort as companions already exist and PvP gear can be purchased with some exceptions (blaster pistol /rifle).

[Lohki]

First of all make whole planet PvP so you can control population engaged in PvP not present in area nearby (like Ilum atm.) Add some bases that you can actually capture with a chance for some loot. Also give defenders a chance for similar loot to encourage defending. For example rated War Hero loot chance for attackers, regular War Hero loot chance for defenders if they prevent capture for a given time. Introduce some mechanism to prevent 3 a.m. capping like a lock or even better a certain number of people necessary to do a job.

 

Now here is my point:

 

Based on population difference allow underdog faction to SUMMON COMPANIONS in their base special chamber. When character dies and population is no longer imbalanced she will not be able to summon companion again.

 

In this way you achieve the following:

- partially solve faction imbalance issue with self-balancing mechanism.

- allow epic heroic fights like 4 vs 8 where underdogs can still win without hugging NPC or turret.

- give characters an incentive to gather PvP gear for their companions. War Hero companion anyone?

- make companions useful again after levelling is done.

- you can do that with minimum effort as companions already exist and PvP gear can be purchased with some exceptions (blaster pistol /rifle).

 

I support this idea.

[Delillo]

Pathetic.

 

Can you imagine Michael Mann polling the general audience to see what kind of movie they want to see? Or Steve Jobs asking customers what kind of electronic devices they want? Sadly this is a great example of what a clone this game is. The designers have no vision regarding PvP but have simply re-skinned other established games.

 

All polish and no vision.

 

Seriously, you spend how many millions on this game....how many years... and you ask three months after release the population to weigh in on what kind of PvP they want??

 

What a bald admission that PvP (outside of warzones) was always an afterthought in the design of SWTOR. It should be no surprise that Ilum was such a colossal failure... because the designers never had any kind of idea of what they even wanted it to be.

 

In all seriousness, if James Ohlen or his design team does not a extremely strong feelings about what Open World PvP should be, then they have no business designing a game that features it.

 

I love a number of Bioware games, but what SWTOR really reveals is that Bioware's soul is devoted to single player games. They want to create controlled experiences and dialogue trees. But having players interact in any kind of meaningful way is a foreign concept.

 

So here's my answer to the poll: none of the above.

 

SWTOR was not built with Open World PvP in mind. Clearly. You are not going to retain the players that want open world PvP. They're gone, if not already, certainly when GW2 comes out. So, in effect, you're designing open world PvP for players who don't really like or want open world PvP. Its PvP for PvEers. So design it with that in mind. Include a ton of mobs and bosses in your open world PvP and have players have to compete to get the kills. Spread the rewards across the zones so that zerging is inefficient. Reward killing other players minimally. Killing other players is just a means toward getting at the good drops off mobs.

 

Or don't. Forget open world PvP and devote yourself to making the best sci-fi raiding PvE game around because those are the players you can retain for years. (as you have damn well known all along).

[IonsElad]

Accurate answers really depend on your definition and the possible implementation of PVP. I voted Open World because I don't like the conceptual separation of PvP and PvE. Players are a dynamic part of the environment, thus PVE includes PVP whether it is coded or not. In my definition Sabacc is PVP; rival commerce is PVP; war, sports, politics and stupid general chat arguments are PVP. Open World is the only way to take PVP off the rail.

 

There are numerous factions available if you go with Republic, Empire and Local Populace especially with Dark, Light and Neutral options. But I don't know if it can be implemented.

 

The big question now is if you are considering PVP to be simply the martial conflicts or whether you include crafters, explorers, spacers, political roleplayers, etc., in the mix.

 

What's possible?

[Maxkardinal]

Shouldnt "Open World PvP" be open and all around the world?

 

Qucik idea:

 

At each planet make specific quest chains which will be suggesting players to do some PvP actions. With PvP orientaded rewards.

 

Objectives could be:

 

base stroming

 

leaders killing

 

territory holding

 

whatever, use your imagination.

 

Make quests same lvl as planet. Buff for those who lower, debuff for those who higher.

 

Make them daily or every X hours. So there would be constant action.

 

Make regular quest walk paths for both sides to cross more often to provoke pvp action.

 

And there you will have "Open World PvP"

[Lexster]

Something like darkness falls may help. 3 seperate moons each hold a shield array preventing access to a popular dungeon on the planet they orbit. To power down shields you have to possess all three arrays. After owning all 3 arrays a timer kicks in while the shields power down, giving the opposing side an hour or so to work on retaking 1 array. If not retaken, winning side has access to dungeon for 4-6 hours before automated defenses push the sides out and the shields restore themselves.

 

Another idea would be a realm wide boost due to some rare datacron that the factions can fight over.

 

I would love to have capturable bases, but Im not sure how long that would take to implement with the current system, or even if it is feasible. I also prefer raw more than any other option, but realize that if faction balance isn't present pvp will wither away. Perhaps a system that uses a sliding scale, where the area is raw until a certain balance point is met and then PvPvE kicks in and gradually becomes stronger as the balance continues to skew?

[JeramieCrowe]

Pathetic.

 

Can you imagine Michael Mann polling the general audience to see what kind of movie they want to see? Or Steve Jobs asking customers what kind of electronic devices they want? Sadly this is a great example of what a clone this game is. The designers have no vision regarding PvP but have simply re-skinned other established games.

 

All polish and no vision.

 

Seriously, you spend how many millions on this game....how many years... and you ask three months after release the population to weigh in on what kind of PvP they want??

 

What a bald admission that PvP (outside of warzones) was always an afterthought in the design of SWTOR. It should be no surprise that Ilum was such a colossal failure... because the designers never had any kind of idea of what they even wanted it to be.

 

In all seriousness, if James Ohlen or his design team does not a extremely strong feelings about what Open World PvP should be, then they have no business designing a game that features it.

 

I love a number of Bioware games, but what SWTOR really reveals is that Bioware's soul is devoted to single player games. They want to create controlled experiences and dialogue trees. But having players interact in any kind of meaningful way is a foreign concept.

 

So here's my answer to the poll: none of the above.

 

SWTOR was not built with Open World PvP in mind. Clearly. You are not going to retain the players that want open world PvP. They're gone, if not already, certainly when GW2 comes out. So, in effect, you're designing open world PvP for players who don't really like or want open world PvP. Its PvP for PvEers. So design it with that in mind. Include a ton of mobs and bosses in your open world PvP and have players have to compete to get the kills. Spread the rewards across the zones so that zerging is inefficient. Reward killing other players minimally. Killing other players is just a means toward getting at the good drops off mobs.

 

Or don't. Forget open world PvP and devote yourself to making the best sci-fi raiding PvE game around because those are the players you can retain for years. (as you have damn well known all along).

 

I think it's pathetic that you actually think Michael Mann and Steve Jobs didn't use polls.

[Trishlicious]

I would like to see massive PVP battles; we are at war. If I could re-vote I would indicate that I want all of the above because why limit the ways the two sides do battle. I want to see the SWTOR type battles depicted in the videos which shows a variety epic of battles taking place; lets recreate those epic battles please.

 

Also while on the topic why do we have to have PVP gear to even compete; I have zero end game gear but I still want to be able to participate in the war as the story indicates my involvement. I do not want to be forced into just one type of gear to play PVP; it is becoming an elite war rather than a war for war. Make those people with the special gear our generals and give them additional command of the battle; special HUDs, built in voice com!, waypoint creation and equipment management/assigning.

 

I know everyone involved with SWTOR want the best; lets see the best James.

 

Thank you.

Trishlicious

[JeramieCrowe]

I would like to see massive PVP battles; we are at war. If I could re-vote I would indicate that I want all of the above because why limit the ways the two sides do battle. I want to see the SWTOR type battles depicted in the videos which shows a variety epic of battles taking place; lets recreate those epic battles please.

 

Also while on the topic why do we have to have PVP gear to even compete; I have zero end game gear but I still want to be able to participate in the war as the story indicates my involvement. I do not want to be forced into just one type of gear to play PVP; it is becoming an elite war rather than a war for war. Make those people with the special gear our generals and give them additional command of the battle; special HUDs, built in voice com!, waypoint creation and equipment management/assigning.

 

I know everyone involved with SWTOR want the best; lets see the best James.

 

Thank you.

Trishlicious

 

We're not technically at war yet. Although the devs have mentioned that is the eventual outcome this game's world arc storyline is moving toward.

[maxgue]

I'd like something like Aion: conquer fortresses to get access to a particular istance, to get items you cannot get if your faction do not control them, maybe some buff like "if your faction control this you get +X% money from drop, 1 extra loot at the final boss for every flashpoint/raid, etc".

The only problem with this method is that with 2 factions the one with less numbers (and/or partecipants) will be always defeated with no benefit for the server itself as you can reroll as the opposite faction in the same server. So if a faction will dominate the server for 1 month, we'll see no one else playing the "defeated" one.

Still, conquering objects might add more to the open pvp, but until you optimize your engine/framework, it won't work. With around 100 players it was impossible to play. In Aion I had the same problem but with no less than 500 players in the same area.

 

But if you want to add anything, MAKE IT USEFUL, not like Ilum that you just use to complete your dailies then leave.

[Sabiian]

PVPVE hands down.

Give us a planet with multiple bases to attack and equipment to buy to help with the attack such as siege tanks or siege cannons. On the flip side give us the ability to purchase npcs and turrets to defend the bases we capture and real rewards for capturing and holding those bases. Rewards could be anything from relics that boost stats of the entire faction throughout the galaxy to flash points and daily's that are only available to the faction that controls the most bases or certain larger bases. One base per faction isn't enough, with imbalances in population between the two factions we need multiple targets spread apart and preferably with different difficulties (one base larger or more fortified than another ect).

[Deewe]

What kind of Open World PVP excites you most?

 

You can vote in the attached poll. Here are some more details on each type of objective:

 

1. 'Raw' Open World - faction vs faction, with no faction population restriction mechanics AKA 'true' Open World PvP. Factions claim objectives.
    
   
2. PvPvE balanced - bolstering the underdog faction through NPCs, turrets, etc. Factions claim objectives.
    
   
3. Faction population capped - strict balancing in place between faction populations in objective areas. Factions claim objectives.
    
   
4. Guild based - everyone is your enemy except players in your guild. Guilds claim objectives.
   

 

 

#2 Isn't PvP, it's PvE

#3 Isn't world PvP, it's just a bigger warzone

#1 and 4 don't fit the SW setting and the core design of this game being Republic vs Empire. Jedi fighting against each others on a massive scale, seriously?

 

So what is world PvP then:

• No safe planet nor zone at all even the starting areas
  
• PvP starts at level 1
  

 

All areas should be accessible by anyone would they truly want go there (ex: needing 100+ players to go into the deepest and most guarded stronghold).

 

Then if you want to avoid griefing make sure you have mechanisms to prevent high level players to gank lowbies and groups of lowbies ganking high levels ones, the high level ones getting penalized for having fought back.

 

Finally if you really want to make PvP interesting:

- RvR

- 3 factions

- World objectives that counts

 

The most fun PvP is in the open not in preset scenarios.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Deewe

[JeramieCrowe]

#2 Isn't PvP, it's PvE

#3 Isn't world PvP, it's just a bigger warzone

#1 and 4 don't fit the SW setting and the core design of this game being Republic vs Empire. Jedi fighting against each others on a massive scale, seriously?

 

So what is world PvP then:

• No safe planet nor zone at all even the starting areas
  
• PvP starts at level 1
  

 

All areas should be accessible by anyone would they truly go there (ex: needing 100+ players to go into the deepest and most guarded stronghold.

 

Then if you want to avoid griefing make sure you have mechanisms to prevent high level players to gank lowbies and groups of lowbies ganking high levels ones, the high level ones getting penalized for having fought back.

 

Finally if you really want to make PvP interesting:

- RvR

- 3 factions

- World objectives that counts

 

The most fun PvP is in the open not in preset scenarios.

 

Good post. I agree 100%

[mangarrage]

The only option that works in this game due to population inbalance is instanced warzones of a much larger size

 

I would love open raw pvp but I do not want to steamroll 20 people with 60 (although I'm sure many people do cause they arent real pvpers)

 

I would love a large instance where it isnt pop capped per se but capped by population by faction

 

Obviously the number wouldnt have to match exactly but within lets say 5 at low pops to 10 at high pops

 

If the population isnt controlled and balanced it just simply isnt fair and will not work

 

So you could in essence have a queue for a planet. The planet is open pvp with objectives and as long as the population is always synced it would be great

 

Again this is because of the pop situation in the game at this time. If the pops were reasonable you wouldnt need to do it

[Ghostmachine]

I initially cast my vote for Guild focused PvP objectives but I must confess this was short sighted.

 

PvPvE is probably the most balanced choice. PvP needs balance in a game like this. I'm afraid guild based PvP would simply cater to larger guilds, and quite possibly create a widening gap between the largest guilds and the smaller, or guilds that are just getting started.

 

Perhaps a combination of the two? With core PvP worlds for PvPvE objective based combat and separate worlds for guild v guild combat. The core PvP worlds would advance the story, or would be more central to the main story of The Old Republic. The guild v guild PvP worlds would be simply for bragging rights and rivalries between guilds.

[Pekish]

a) raw PVP wont work unbalanced faction will ruin it in less then 1 month

 

d) guild is not different then faction if there is any gain in winning the strongest guild will keep growing bigger and bigger and the other guild will die at the end you may end up with 2 big guild (not different then faction AOC docet)

 

this system is too player driven and players are scum go where the wind of reward blow.

 

and lets' not talk about how you are going to **** the background jedi guild vs jedi guild

 

c) this is a Big minigame instead of 8vs8 it's 32vs32 or whatever u make it to be 40vs40 i like it but i wouldnt call it open world PVP (easy route)

 

b) this could technically work but to get it right it's very very very very hard and it will lag so much more then the "big" minigame (hard route)

 

 

Honestly speaking i dont see any of these really working unless player step up from the animal attitude they have (it WONT happen).

 

 

So keeping in consideration that player cant' play i would say the easiest way to see something "nice" sooner it's C (big minigame style or altaric valley if you prefear)

 

the intresting way of doing it would be B (and the most voted it seems) but honestly I dont see it happening soon

 

I vote C

Edited March 30, 2012 by Pekish

[Ironbottom]

This has been mentioned plenty of times on the forum, but I'd like to make my voice heard as well. Remember DAoC PvP? Awesome. You should emulate that as much as possible. I know there's a jillion technical reasons why this, that, and the other, cannot be done. But I'm just saying, conceptually... do that.

 

Keeps, relic raids, realm controlled content (pvp dungeon), stat boosts for your entire realm... that all made PvP meaningful. You'd see realm-wide announcements like "OMG The bad guys just took control of your stuff!" That was exciting to see! Then everyone would run out there, regardless of level, join a huge raid group, and try to get your stuff back. Wicked fun.

[JeramieCrowe]

The only option that works in this game due to population inbalance is instanced warzones of a much larger size

 

And when they implement the balancing mechanics? What then?

[Pekish]

DAOC pvp was because of DAOC players a system like DAOC nowday would be impossible people is to focused on reward rather then just PVP...

 

plus DAOC had 3 faction how in the world can you compare this?

[WiltenRose]

I would just like to echo the suggestion for Alignment-based PVP. As was said, this would give you 3 factions instead of 2. It also works along RP lines. It would be interesting to know, statistically, what the numbers are for characters who are light, neutral, or dark. We know there are more Imps than Reps, but that doesn't necessarily mean there are more dark than anything else.

 

Add a story element for Ilum or a new world where there is a necessity for characters to be split along Alignment lines. Something that they can fight over that is contained to that planet, so it's still believable that as long as that they're not on that planet, they can still work together.