! The New and Improved "Shadowstep" Bill for Concealment !

[Gaucho]

I've used Snipe/ExProb countless times to hit enemies that I cannot close the gap on. Know why? Because there's fire/in combat run speed making it a PITA to get to the target, and I can knock off a good 4k with a adrenal/snipe/exprobe. That will usually be enough to kill/put a severe dent in the squishy sorc who just blew his bubble running thru the fire because he was scared of the Operative out of stealth.

 

If you aren't using every ability you have as an Operative, and let me say this nice and slow for you kids that think run/gun knife kills COD style are all we're good for:

 

you are doing it wrong.

 

All the other classes can keep doing what they are meant to do without having to use silly methods to accomplish the goal of their advanced class. Yet you say it is "OK to be" broken for the concealment spec. I think YOU are doing everything wrong.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Gaucho

[FiveOmens]

/Signed

[Wohast]

I dont need a gap closer....I need *********** DAMAGE

 

shadows can do 12k-14k boulder throws....and yet my class is the one getting nerfed every patch...

[irdc]

The whole point of bringing the fact of NO GAP CLOSER for concealment is that they are nerfing backblast/backstab and HS/mirror and the overall damage of the AC itself.

 

Are you paying attention?

 

Actually, people were asking for a gap closer before the 1.2 test server notes were released largely because of Huttball.

 

This makes sense given that Huttball is the only same faction WZ out there right now.

[irdc]

If you are only getting kited or knocked away in Huttball then your enemies are doing it wrong.

 

Any melee DPS without a gap closer is gonna get steamrolled by a competent ranged class.

 

/Signed btw

 

It's not terribly hard to use LOS to avoid ranged damage if you are aware of your surroundings. You just have to choose where you are fighting and know where your escape rout is. Besides, your argument ignores the fact that people are asking for Shadowstep as a gap closer FROM STEALTH. If a competent ranged class is steamrolling you, then you're not in stealth. Ergo, a gap closer wouldn't help against ranged classes anyways.

 

As I said, I'd much rather see more damage than a gap closer because that fits my play style better; I actually use my ranged abilities as a scoundrel. Or I'd rather see the cooldown on Vanishing Act lowered.

[Gaucho]

Actually, people were asking for a gap closer before the 1.2 test server notes were released largely because of Huttball.

 

This makes sense given that Huttball is the only same faction WZ out there right now.

 

It makes no sense whether if its same faction or not, or any warzone. The whole game is based around 4 classes with mirrors. This is about a simple utility skill that 3 out of 4 have.

 

Operatives/smugglers dont have utility.

 

It made sense to be the BURST melee class not sustained with out a GAP closer. They are taking away BURST, and operatives/mirror are not sustained. It makes sense to NOW get a GAP Closer.

[irdc]

It makes no sense whether if its same faction or not, or any warzone. The whole game is based around 4 classes with mirrors. This is about a simple utility skill that 3 out of 4 have.

 

Operatives/smugglers dont have utility.

 

It made sense to be the BURST melee class not sustained with out a GAP closer. They are taking away BURST, and operatives/mirror are not sustained. It makes sense to NOW get a GAP Closer.

 

Of course it makes sense if Huttball is same faction or not. It's the only warzone that is people on the same faction play against. If you are on a server with population imbalance -- and they are a ton of them -- then all you are playing is Huttball.

 

This is important because the lack of a gap closer is most evident in games of Huttball, especially when you get tossed down the basement. This creates the perception that a gap closer is needed.

 

In retrospect, I can't think of many times in the other warzones where a gap closer is needed. Does this mean that there is no strategic merit to a gap closer? Of course not. But the perception of many players is skewed because they are stuck playing the one warzone where scoundrels are somewhat weaker in.

[Gaucho]

Of course it makes sense if Huttball is same faction or not. It's the only warzone that is people on the same faction play against. If you are on a server with population imbalance -- and they are a ton of them -- then all you are playing is Huttball.

 

This is important because the lack of a gap closer is most evident in games of Huttball, especially when you get tossed down the basement. This creates the perception that a gap closer is needed.

 

In retrospect, I can't think of many times in the other warzones where a gap closer is needed. Does this mean that there is no strategic merit to a gap closer? Of course not. But the perception of many players is skewed because they are stuck playing the one warzone where scoundrels are somewhat weaker in.

 

Not after 1.2 since there will 3 WZ for same faction and the NO GAP CLOSER for operatives remain. See Title for.... POST 1.2

[irdc]

Not after 1.2 since there will 3 WZ for same faction and the NO GAP CLOSER for operatives remain. See Title for.... POST 1.2

 

Yeah, but that is my point. Because there will be three same-faction warzones, the lack of a gap closer will not be as glaring since people will be playing less Huttball.

Edited March 29, 2012 by irdc

[Gaucho]

Yeah, but that is my point. Because there will be three same-faction warzones, the lack of a gap closer will not be as glaring since people will be playing less Huttball.

 

Sure it will.

 

If you compare it to WoW, which is what this game is modeled after. EVERY CLASS has a Gap Closer or utility to help a team mate. Even Ret Paladins.

[Reenolols]

Op dps is still absolutely ridiculous. If you have problems it's because you're not good at the class. Do 500-700k regularly. But yeah, sure I'll take a shadowstep, not gonna say no to that. Edited March 29, 2012 by Reenolols

[irdc]

Sure it will.

 

If you compare it to WoW, which is what this game is modeled after. EVERY CLASS has a Gap Closer or utility to help a team mate. Even Ret Paladins.

 

For a majority of WoW's lifespan, Rogues did not have Shadowstep.

 

And, I know you'll hate this answer, but technically Scoundrels can "help a team mate" via healing. I don't pocket heal others much because it takes me out of the rhythm of battle, but the option is always there.

Edited March 29, 2012 by irdc

[Gaucho]

For a majority of WoW's lifespan, Rogues did not have Shadowstep.

 

And, I know you'll hate this answer, but technically Scoundrels can "help a team mate" via healing. I don't pocket heal others much because it takes me out of the rhythm of battle, but the option is always there.

 

They started with Sprint.

 

which you could later upgrade with glyphs to run faster than a mount and on water. = GAP CLOSER

 

Everyone can help a team mate with heals or guard. Doesnt change the fact that operatives dont have a GAP CLOSER and every else does.

 

No matter what you say, The FACT Remains. GAP CLOSING is a warzone changer ability and operatives don't have it.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Gaucho

[Choppii]

/signed

[Gaucho]

First post updated

[Cosmic_Forge]

/signed

 

And FFS, roll back the timers nerf in 1.2. We're fine as is.

 

I think part of the problem is BW is looking at WZ numbers. I can tell you that info is flawed, because much of that damage is from AOE, not 1on1.

 

That, along with the comparative parse info on the 1.2 PTS, BW needs to scale back on the single target nerfs.

Edited March 29, 2012 by Cosmic_Forge

[Hextasy]

For a majority of WoW's lifespan, Rogues did not have Shadowstep.

 

And, I know you'll hate this answer, but technically Scoundrels can "help a team mate" via healing. I don't pocket heal others much because it takes me out of the rhythm of battle, but the option is always there.

This is the future of rogue in Mists of Pandaria:

 

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/mists-of-pandaria/feature/talent-calculator#rogue

 

You pick 1 of 3 talents. You get new talent every 15 levels. Very simple.

 

Of concern are the level 15 talents:

 

Nightstalker (passive, increases your speed while stealthed by 20%)

Subterfuge (passive, your stealth breaks 3 sec after dealing or receiving hostile actions, rather than doing so immediately)

Shadow Focus (passive, abilities no longer cost energy while you are stealthed)

 

The interesting thing here is that the first ability makes the rogue much more mobile (and is now in top of sub tree) but at the expense of picking one of the other 2 abilities which provide more dmg one way or another.

 

Next point of interest are the level 60 talents:

 

Preparation (old, used to be sub only, 5 min CD, when activated this ability immediately finishes the CD on your sprint, vanish, cloak of shadows, evasion, dismantle, and smoke bomb abilities)

Shadowstep (old, used to be sub only, 24 sec CD, 25 yd range, step through the shadows and appear behind an enemy target

Burst of Speed (new, 60 energy, increases the movement speed by 70% for 4 sec. If you are afflicted by any movement impairing efects, activating this ability will instead remove any such effects and grant immunity to their re-application for 4 sec)

All these 3 related to movement. As you can see stacking these would be overpowered, but that is precisely what is not possible.

 

The point? The point is that in "that other game" the rogue has a lot of movement at their disposal, and the player has choices to be made between several abilities which are alike in that regard, but different.

 

If you want to make a compelling talent tree decision in SWTOR you could have different builds which are focused -for example- on more burst damage, or more on movement, or more on CC. So, if this ability is proven to be too powerful (which post-nerf 1.2 ops I doubt but we'll see how 1.2 ops are), you could have it replace some burst damage instead. This would provide a compelling choice, even in PvE where the movement gain can be a DPS gain (shadowstep can be a huge DPS/survivability gain in some fights!)

 

Speaking of which the smoke bomb is also an ace survival ability the rogue has (in PvP), and it is AoE, so not only for rogue. It is also strong offensive ability against healers/ranged.

[Dcayd]

As Gaucho said, a concealment op's dmg comes from melee dmg. Dropping into cover and sniping may provide decent dmg, but you won't out dmg a true ranged class. More to the point, our survivability drops dramatically the further we are from a target and the longer a fight goes on.

 

@Gaucho:

If the choice was between nothing at all or a gap closer then of course I'd take a gap closer. But my opinion is that I'd much rather see a more creative solution than just giving us what all the other melee classes have. Thus my suggestion for more decent and mobile dmg. Burst up close and either kite melee between bursts or keep putting pressure on ranged classes after the inevitable knockback until we can get close enough to burst again.

 

It's the age old (well, as long as mmo's w/ pvp have been around) problem with high burst sneak classes with a bunch of cd's. They get balanced around having all their cd's up, but no consideration is given to what they can do when they can't vanish or pop their def cd's.

 

That's why I brought up the Hidden Strike/ Backstab thing. If Acid Blade was left at 50% arp, but hidden strike was a passive talent change to backstab then it would slow our burst to basically every 12 sec (that is what the 1.2 cd on it is, right?) with a 6 sec window, assuming uninterrupted time on target.

 

You can ignore everything I say though. It's all pointless theory crafting for a class that the devs have shown no interest in buffing in the appropriate areas.

 

And @WZ numbers: how can they have decent numbers to judge ops on? I rarely see any in WZ's.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Dcayd

[AzraelCales]

I would love to see a gap closer like this on my operative. On a side note, marauders don't get force push.

[teemoor]

Since Operative is a gadget class (right?) I mean he uses scanners, flashbangs, shock devices, droids and such. Why can't he use a gadget that pulls him to him target? Some kind of rope with a hook or something (Batman style fck yeah xD). Ofc not usable from stealth, it's for chasing targets that you opened on and they are now running away with 50% hp.

[JidaiGeki]

half the things you listed requires you to STOP MOVING when you are a melee class and your target is getting away from you. They energy cost for them is really high leaving you resource-empty if you spam them too quick and leaving you open to any target to crush you.

 

As far as the Catwalk goes, for almost every melee class there is, if you get blown off, you can get back up or pull your target back to you, while operatives have to run back in slow motion.

 

Since you have never played one I will ignore your assumptions.

 

*Sigh* You need to read what's written instead of strawman-ranting, champ. I said that in a pinch we can throw some ranged damage on a target. Can you not think of any situations in which it might be useful to put ranged damage on a fleeing target you physically cannot reach? Like SWTORBurns said, you're pretty much doing it wrong if you never, ever need to think outside the box and can only function as a one-dimensional AB-HS whore. I imagine that playstyle is also boring as hell.

 

Also, that wasn't an assumption, it was a question, but ignore away since you're so hellbent on sticking to your narrow-minded viewpoint anyway.

 

 

According to TORhead, you also have to STOP MOVING To accomplish that. What makes you think someone is gonna stand there and let you fire at them from range when you are not even a range class ( concealment )

 

Catwalk. You blown off. Ball carrier down to 2k health and will score if you don't stop them. Seriously, are you so dense you can't even conceive of a situation where our ranged attacks, limited though they may be, give us an edge over pure melee classes who've blown their gap closers?

 

All the other classes can keep doing what they are meant to do without having to use silly methods to accomplish the goal of their advanced class. Yet you say it is "OK to be" broken for the concealment spec. I think YOU are doing everything wrong.

 

And this is why you need to L2P- for you, 'silly methods' are using everything at your disposal to take someone down, even it's not your principal method of doing so. Sometimes conditions are less than ideal and you have to adapt, but I guess you face off against Rep teams of sages who turn around, face the wall and wait for your HS.

 

If you compare it to WoW, which is what this game is modeled after. EVERY CLASS has a Gap Closer or utility to help a team mate. Even Ret Paladins.

 

Go and play WoW then? Seriously, if this game stresses you out so much, why not just quit?

Edited March 30, 2012 by JidaiGeki

[Gaucho]

*Sigh* You need to read what's written instead of strawman-ranting, champ. I said that in a pinch we can throw some ranged damage on a target. Can you not think of any situations in which it might be useful to put ranged damage on a fleeing target you physically cannot reach? Like SWTORBurns said, you're pretty much doing it wrong if you never, ever need to think outside the box and can only function as a one-dimensional AB-HS whore. I imagine that playstyle is also boring as hell.

 

Also, that wasn't an assumption, it was a question, but ignore away since you're so hellbent on sticking to your narrow-minded viewpoint anyway.

 

Catwalk. You blown off. Ball carrier down to 2k health and will score if you don't stop them. Seriously, are you so dense you can't even conceive of a situation where our ranged attacks, limited though they may be, give us an edge over pure melee classes who've blown their gap closers?

 

 

And this is why you need to L2P- for you, 'silly methods' are using everything at your disposal to take someone down, even it's not your principal method of doing so. Sometimes conditions are less than ideal and you have to adapt, but I guess you face off against Rep teams of sages who turn around, face the wall and wait for your HS.

 

 

Go and play WoW then? Seriously, if this game stresses you out so much, why not just quit?

 

 

why do operatives need to think outside the box?

 

while everyone else plays inside the box. There is no reason why i should work extra hard to achieve the same results or near to everyone else is doing. The fact that everyone has a GAP CLOSER is reality except for operatives. Like I said.

 

Bring any argument about how to play the class, but the fact remains that operatives do not have a GAP CLOSER and said argument will not outweigh the fact.

[JidaiGeki]

why do operatives need to think outside the box?

 

I think this quote pretty much sums it up.

 

while everyone else plays inside the box. There is no reason why i should work extra hard to achieve the same results or near to everyone else is doing. The fact that everyone has a GAP CLOSER is reality except for operatives. Like I said.

 

I'm really confused why you bother playing an Op. Go and build yourself a nice grav-spam trooper; I think that would suit your mentality and preferred play-style much better.

[hulkweazel]

Really, so you think you can use snipe and explosive probe to nuke down an enemy? I used them while lvling up but later on not. Are these standard rotation in ops too? I don't think so, but I would love to hear from other ops (esp who parse logs) if they use these abilities.

 

Why would they be? Orbital Strike would do more ranged damage. If you meet a player who is a ranged class, with talent tree for ranged abilities will completely own you in ranged combat.

 

I'm almost full champion. I just used sniper in Huttball. It hit for 1k. With explosive probe I got a sniper down from 17k to 14k before I died (I was half health before we started 1v1).

 

If you cannot nuke down a healer (and you should not be able to kill a healer 1v1) and you conclude you have to resort to snipe and explosive probe then I doubt it'd make a difference compared to your melee and short range combat (my rifle burst hits for 300 more than snipe). You also cannot get more near an enemy while crouch, you are a sitting duck. If the healer would feel pressure he'd just run away out of your range while you are crouch, go LoS, do some heals, and /laugh at you.

 

There are legio more viable alternatives:

 

1) Get back in stealth and call it against that opponent. More often that not the most sound solution.

2) Get back in melee range.

3) Get back in short range.

4) Attack an other enemy.

5) Kite the enemy.

 

All of them are more viable than using explosive probe + snipe.

 

I do use frag grenade because it is instant (so can be used during movement), long range, AoE, and can put a stealthed unit out of stealth.

 

Yeah, as lvl 49 you can own anyone in 1v1... that isn't very hard... lets hear from you when you start doing Huttball in l50, how you used explosive probe + snipe there. Because my experience is that the l50 Huttball is far more competitive than the lvling Huttball.

^^This. JidaiJeki, please reread this post.

 

Snipe looks good on paper but the fact is, it does ranged damage meaning it can be mitigated/deflected/blocked. At level 50, it would do 1k damage if you're lucky.

 

Explosive Probe is decent, but it requires you to crouch, use Probe, then attack the opponent, all while standing still.

 

At level 50, my blaster rifle does peanuts for damage since nearly all of it is mitigated. Its only real purpose is to stop caps or tag stealthers.

 

I use Frag Grenade and Explosive Probe not because they are good abilities, but because we have nothing better.

[JidaiGeki]

Snipe looks good on paper but the fact is, it does ranged damage meaning it can be mitigated/deflected/blocked. At level 50, it would do 1k damage if you're lucky.

 

Explosive Probe is decent, but it requires you to crouch, use Probe, then attack the opponent, all while standing still.

 

At level 50, my blaster rifle does peanuts for damage since nearly all of it is mitigated. Its only real purpose is to stop caps or tag stealthers.

 

I use Frag Grenade and Explosive Probe not because they are good abilities, but because we have nothing better.

 

'Nothing better' is better than 'nothing', surely? I'm not saying that we should blindly accept whatever crumbs BW throws us, but pure melees don't have those options, right? I still haven't got an answer on what a mara can do if they're knocked into the pit and their leap is on CD, but I'm guessing very little. We can at least throw some ranged support into the mix. Don't forget corrosive dart too, which isn't a bad DOT even unspecced.