Everything needs a Chance.

[Thornes]

SWTOR while only being out for 3 months is drawing a lot of criticism that is really not necessary or premature in the growth stages of any MMO. While a lot of people make a valid point about their views of WOW vs SWTOR, there is really nothing to compare except both companies want your business.

WOW's IP model was ahead of it's time, and yes after multiple updates/patches/expansions/years it has grown a large player base over it's uptime. If you look the the populations on WOW's servers though you will see a lot of boredom because the game is/has become boring, yet still people go back to play just like the days of EQ.

What every MMO company has issues with in my Opinion, is not the storyline, but the end-game. After getting to level 50, which I find to be the most stupid model for any MMO "Levels", there is nothing to do except like with WOW, wait for an expansion and new armor sets. MMO's do not need levels! This is the "endgame" when you define it with a number. Every player races to get to 50 because it is the "GOAL" in the game that sets the restrictions on advancement. Next is to RAID/BATTLEFIELD to get better gear or something trivial like accommodations for purchasing something that you already worked for by doing the Dungeon or PVP.

 

Like all MMO companies, they have hired groups to find targets in the marketing for potential customers and they cater to bring in new blood. It is the belief of almost all MMO companies that the average life of a gamer in the MMO is 14 months. As we all know from past experiences though it generally takes 14 months to finish the product with the public as paying BETA testers. With SWTOR I do not mind helping by keeping my sub, but I do expect a strong showing of updates, upgrades, and listening to the "Majority" of certain request from the public about what they want in the game they are paying for.

 

I do like the genre of this game since my age puts me as a kid during the release of George Lucas's movies. I was a hardcore SWG player until they added levels to the game, and at that point I knew it was time to move along, there was nothing else to see!.

 

My Next MMO if this one does not pan out will be The Secret World. It is a "Sandbox", no level game, and I really enjoy the fact that no matter how you rush, there is no level cap. If you want to change up, relearn your skills and do what you want and be what you want.

I am weary of FUNCOM based on personal experience with them, but if they use this sandbox system, I think it is worth the initial purchse and 30 free days to check it out.

[StormRiders]

By purchasing the game is a gamble that we all made. The chance part is usually the first 3 months of a game for most MMOs.

 

Sorry the time's up & I ain't keep paying to BETA TEST this game. Look at WAR, it was bad, & many still gave it a chance. Now it's pretty much down to 1 or 2 servers left.

 

I'm not saying this would happen to SWTOR anytime soon but I for one ain't going to keep BETA TESTING a game w/ my money. So see ya! Before anyone say anything. Yes, I've cancelled & destroyed the CDs.

 

Speak with your wallet & that's the best way as a player can do to voice their long over due concerns.

Edited March 25, 2012 by StormRiders

[Marak]

Yes, I've cancelled & destroyed the CDs.

 

Everything you posted is a semi-valid opinion except for this. This is just sour grapes and irrational behavior. Let's say everything about this game became exactly what you wanted next month. What then? This emphatic "I will never return" vibe of yours just screams "I don't actually care about this game and will say anything to bash on it", which is neither helpful nor rational behavior. If you hate the game that much than please just go away and stop posting.

[Tarka]

Like all MMO companies, they have hired groups to find targets in the marketing for potential customers and they cater to bring in new blood. It is the belief of almost all MMO companies that the average life of a gamer in the MMO is 14 months. As we all know from past experiences though it generally takes 14 months to finish the product with the public as paying BETA testers. With SWTOR I do not mind helping by keeping my sub, but I do expect a strong showing of updates, upgrades, and listening to the "Majority" of certain request from the public about what they want in the game they are paying for.

 

Past studies done by universities in America showed that the average gamer plays an MMO for about 23 hours per week (just over 3 hours per day). SWTOR's devs have actually remarked how players are currently playing beyond that mark.

 

Now, we apparently have an estimated 200 hours of content per class. And that a sizeable portion of players are more interested in progression their "end game" characters. Also, there's so many companies jostling each other in the MMO market, that players are inclined to "jump ship" now more than ever. Gone are the days of undying loyalty due to a lack of competition or a belief that things will get better. Sure some will stick around an MMO. But a lot leave within the first year or so.

 

So I very much doubt that 14 months mark is anywhere close to being correct. Even James Ohlen admits that the quantity of people hitting max level only a few months after launch has surprised Bioware. Which indicates that they sorely under-estimated their intended audience.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tarka

[Thornes]

I'm curious as to where the information has come from that it takes an MMO player 14 months to "finish a product".

 

 

The information I stated is that the average life of a MMO player in a new game, not the time it takes to achieve endgame. I was a Technical support specialist that worked for FUNCOM during the Age of Conan release. The DEVS, DB, and Designers all stated to me the average life of a MMO gamer because I was arguing the fact of endgame vs. no level cap. They obviously decided to try the No Level concept in the upcoming Secret World project, So let's see who was right about that issue.

 

While you can use university target group studies and statistics, to me a better way is to watch any MMO that does not advance and cater to the public to a certain extent. Dec was release of SWTOR, let's see what the Population holds in FEB 2013. While the studies do show the math to achieve endgame, it does not show the attention span of consumers that get a product they are not happy with. There are so many variables when looking at the 14 months, game advancement, stability, feedback and new releases that offer a better product. I think this is where the FUNCOM management got the 14 month scenario from.

[Vahzl]

What people tend to forget is the chain of feedback:

 

1. Game goes live
   
2. First few patches address major stability and exploitation bugs missed in QA
   
3. Players begin their rage tyrades about everything that sets their very soul on fire
   
4. Developers sift the valid feedback from the QQ mess
   
5. Developers begin to examine the truth in the claims, and then work to finding solutions
   
6. Developers begin to develop the solution, send it to QA and it gets bounced back and forth here for weeks/months to iron out bugs and get it working
   
7. Proposed changes are announced
   
8. Players leave more rage storm feedback, developers then sift the validity from the vile tongues, and apply the valid feedback to the work already in progress
   
9. Patch hits the test realm, more bugs and rage is found, more feedback hits the devs, more work to be done
   
10. Patch eventually goes live, feedback begins again, and the whole process begins once more
    

 

This entire process takes months, and players forget that while they can stomp their feet and smash the TV to get the PlayStation they asked for for christmas at home, it's not how things work out here in the real world. It takes time, patience, money and skill.

 

A little insight into the development process for all those ragers that will never read this anyways.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Vahzl

[IPaq]

What people tend to forget is the chain of feedback:

 

1. Game goes live
   
2. First few patches address major stability and exploitation bugs missed in QA
   
3. Players begin their rage tyrades about everything that sets their very soul on fire
   
4. Developers sift the valid feedback from the QQ mess
   
5. Developers begin to examine the truth in the claims, and then work to finding solutions
   
6. Developers begin to develop the solution, send it to QA and it gets bounced back and forth here for weeks/months to iron out bugs and get it working
   
7. Proposed changes are announced
   
8. Players leave more rage storm feedback, developers then sift the validity from the vile tongues, and apply the valid feedback to the work already in progress
   
9. Patch hits the test realm, more bugs and rage is found, more feedback hits the devs, more work to be done
   
10. Patch eventually goes live, feedback begins again, and the whole process begins once more
    

 

This entire process takes months, and players forget that while they can stomp their feet and smash the TV to get the PlayStation they asked for for christmas at home, it's not how things work out here in the real world. It takes time, patience, money and skill.

 

A little insight into the development process for all those ragers that will never read this anyways.

 

Well,

 

Lets makes this short -> Great content, Passable presentation. Simple.

 

EA/BW had the opportunity for greatness, they provided what can be the best content out there, but they lack the capacity to provide an environment (see UI, Engine, GM's, Patches) to make it truly great.

 

TLDR: Don't recruit ex-"Heavy Snow Storm" employe.

[Isaiahsdad]

What people tend to forget is the chain of feedback:

 

1. Game goes live
   
2. First few patches address major stability and exploitation bugs missed in QA
   
3. Players begin their rage tyrades about everything that sets their very soul on fire
   
4. Developers sift the valid feedback from the QQ mess
   
5. Developers begin to examine the truth in the claims, and then work to finding solutions
   
6. Developers begin to develop the solution, send it to QA and it gets bounced back and forth here for weeks/months to iron out bugs and get it working
   
7. Proposed changes are announced
   
8. Players leave more rage storm feedback, developers then sift the validity from the vile tongues, and apply the valid feedback to the work already in progress
   
9. Patch hits the test realm, more bugs and rage is found, more feedback hits the devs, more work to be done
   
10. Patch eventually goes live, feedback begins again, and the whole process begins once more
    

 

This entire process takes months, and players forget that while they can stomp their feet and smash the TV to get the PlayStation they asked for for christmas at home, it's not how things work out here in the real world. It takes time, patience, money and skill.

 

A little insight into the development process for all those ragers that will never read this anyways.

 

 

Sorry, but this excuse is as lame as the republic on this game! With the foresight that games have, their should not be this many issues. where is my

 

1. Guild bank?

2. why can't i abandon quests?

3.where is the dual spec?

4. where is cross server grouping?

[Tarka]

What people tend to forget is the chain of feedback:

 

1. Game goes live
   
2. First few patches address major stability and exploitation bugs missed in QA
   
3. Players begin their rage tyrades about everything that sets their very soul on fire
   
4. Developers sift the valid feedback from the QQ mess
   
5. Developers begin to examine the truth in the claims, and then work to finding solutions
   
6. Developers begin to develop the solution, send it to QA and it gets bounced back and forth here for weeks/months to iron out bugs and get it working
   
7. Proposed changes are announced
   
8. Players leave more rage storm feedback, developers then sift the validity from the vile tongues, and apply the valid feedback to the work already in progress
   
9. Patch hits the test realm, more bugs and rage is found, more feedback hits the devs, more work to be done
   
10. Patch eventually goes live, feedback begins again, and the whole process begins once more
    

 

This entire process takes months, and players forget that while they can stomp their feet and smash the TV to get the PlayStation they asked for for christmas at home, it's not how things work out here in the real world. It takes time, patience, money and skill.

 

A little insight into the development process for all those ragers that will never read this anyways.

 

What you posted isn't an "insight" at all. Any validity you may have had in your post is grossly overshadowed by your obvious bias, and rampant desire to rip into anyone you see as "QQ'ing".

 

You conveniently forget to mention how the devs rely on the "mushroom method" of communication in the hope that players won't get pissed off waiting for the devs to play "catch up" with the competition which has either already refined it's product, or brought out new ones.

 

The reality of the situation is quite simple: if you launch a product or service that doesn't suit a customers needs, then don't expect them to continue indefinately to give you money for the service out of some form of misplaced loyalty.

 

Especially when the level of the competition is constantly rising both in quantity and quality.

 

You snooze, you lose.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tarka

[Rohke]

Its ok saying an mmo needs to grow but it should not be growing from a subpar level to whats already out there.

 

TOR started behind the competition but theres no reason it should have done. It cannot be that hard to play a diverse selection of mmo's and pick out what works and what does not and then put all those ideas on the design board and say well these features are must haves, these ideas are quite good but people complained about them so lets try to refine them. These ideas tottaly didnt work in that mmo so we wont do that.

 

Also you need to look at future mmo's and what they are doing and planning. Are they doing anything different and new, can we steal it and make it better.

 

I dunno, it fell short of expectations for many people. It will continue on but the damage its suffered already makes me think of vanguard saga of heroes. Which although is a good mmo never recovered from its early mistakes.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Rohke

[Isaiahsdad]

What you posted isn't an "insight" at all. Any validity you may have had in your post is grossly overshadowed by the obvious rampant desire to rip into anyone you see as "QQ'ing".

 

You conveniently forget to mention how the devs rely on the "mushroom method" of communication in the hope that players won't get pissed off waiting for the devs to play "catch up" with the competition which has either already refined it's product, or brought out new ones.

 

The reality of the situation is quite simple: if you launch a product that doesn't suit a customers needs, then don't expect them to continue giving you money for the service out of some form of misplaced loyalty. Especially when the level of the competition is constantly rising both in quantity and quality.

 

 

you wrote what i wanted too! I can't form sentences together when i wake up

[Nitrosnwbrdr]

Sorry, but this excuse is as lame as the republic on this game! With the foresight that games have, their should not be this many issues. where is my

 

1. Guild bank?

2. why can't i abandon quests?

3.where is the dual spec?

4. where is cross server grouping?

 

1. Coming in 1.2

2. Take 20 min. Instead of driving circles on fleet and finish them.

3. Dual spec is coming, but hardly needed. Companion system helps those classes who need it.

4. Yea not sure, but could careless

 

See funny thing is most of your gripes when compared to WoW which most due, are being taken care of quick here. It took WoW 7+ years of development to implement those features.

[Tarka]

Its ok saying an mmo needs to grow but it should not be growing from a subpar level to whats already out there.

 

TOR started behind the competition but theres no reason it should have done. It cannot be that hard to play a diverse selection of mmo's and pick out what works and what does not and then put all those ideas on the design board and say well these features are must haves, these ideas are quite good but people complained about them so lets try to refine them. These ideas tottaly didnt work in that mmo so we wont do that.

 

Also you need to look at future mmo's and what they are doing and planning. Are they doing anything different and new, can we steal it and make it better.

 

I dunno, it fell short of expectations for many people. It will continue on but the damage its suffered already makes me think of vanguard saga of heroes. Which although is a good mmo never recovered from its early mistakes.

 

I suspect that Bioware did do their homework, but their obsession with "Story" took up too much development time to do much else.

[Isaiahsdad]

1. Coming in 1.2

2. Take 20 min. Instead of driving circles on fleet and finish them.

3. Dual spec is coming, but hardly needed. Companion system helps those classes who need it.

4. Yea not sure, but could careless

 

See funny thing is most of your gripes when compared to WoW which most due, are being taken care of quick here. It took WoW 7+ years of development to implement those features.

 

So it should take BW that long too? /rolls eyes

[Vahzl]

What you posted isn't an "insight" at all. Any validity you may have had in your post is grossly overshadowed by your obvious bias, and rampant desire to rip into anyone you see as "QQ'ing".

 

You conveniently forget to mention how the devs rely on the "mushroom method" of communication in the hope that players won't get pissed off waiting for the devs to play "catch up" with the competition which has either already refined it's product, or brought out new ones.

 

The reality of the situation is quite simple: if you launch a product or service that doesn't suit a customers needs, then don't expect them to continue indefinately to give you money for the service out of some form of misplaced loyalty.

 

Especially when the level of the competition is constantly rising both in quantity and quality.

 

You snooze, you lose.

 

Rage as much as you wish, it doesn't change the process and how it works.

[Vahzl]

So it should take BW that long too? /rolls eyes

 

Do you think WoW share their coding with Bioware to help them build their cross realm dungeon infrastructure?

 

No, of course they don't, so EA/BW have to come up with their own.

 

Remember how buggy the LFD was on release?

[Tarka]

1. Coming in 1.2

2. Take 20 min. Instead of driving circles on fleet and finish them.

3. Dual spec is coming, but hardly needed. Companion system helps those classes who need it.

4. Yea not sure, but could careless

 

See funny thing is most of your gripes when compared to WoW which most due, are being taken care of quick here. It took WoW 7+ years of development to implement those features.

 

No, it didn't take blizzard 7+ years to development some of the features that came after its launch. Each feature was under development for a lot less time than that.

 

Nevertheless, other MMO's have launched since WITH features that WoW didn't have at the start. This is why it's futile to cite WoWs launch state as a benchmark to work with.

[Tarka]

Rage as much as you wish, it doesn't change the process and how it works.

 

Who's raging? I'm not. I'm just pointing out the obvious bias and gross errors in your previous post.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tarka

[Isaiahsdad]

Do you think WoW share their coding with Bioware to help them build their cross realm dungeon infrastructure?

 

No, of course they don't, so EA/BW have to come up with their own.

 

Remember how buggy the LFD was on release?

 

 

Yea cause big companies never do that? Look at Att and verizon. and Lfd wasnt that buggy at start the players made it bad. It was actually quite good. It just seems Ea/Bw is ignoring a lot of things. Quite pathetic really!

[Tarka]

Do you think WoW share their coding with Bioware to help them build their cross realm dungeon infrastructure?

 

No, of course they don't, so EA/BW have to come up with their own.

 

Remember how buggy the LFD was on release?

 

You mean like how EVERY OTHER MMO dev company also has to?

 

Sorry, but Bioware is in the same situation as all the rest. No excuses.

 

It's obvious that Bioware focused "story" at the expense of developing other elements.

And now they are playing "catch up". Possibly at the expense of losing some customers. Just like Funcom did with AOC.

 

Those who do not pay attention to the past, are doomed to repeat it.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tarka

[Isaiahsdad]

You mean like how EVERY OTHER MMO dev company also has to?

 

Sorry, but Bioware is in the same situation as all the rest. No excuses.

 

It's obvious that Bioware focused "story" at the expense of developing other elements.

And now they are playing "catch up". Possibly at the expense of losing some customers. Just like Funcom did with AOC.

 

Those who do not pay attention to the past, are doomed to repeat it.

 

we need to go bowling and have a couple beers lol

[Vlaxitov]

SWTOR while only being out for 3 months is drawing a lot of criticism that is really not necessary or premature in the growth stages of any MMO. While a lot of people make a valid point about their views of WOW vs SWTOR, there is really nothing to compare except both companies want your business.

 

Both companies want my business just like the BMV does.

 

WOW's IP model was ahead of it's time, and yes after multiple updates/patches/expansions/years it has grown a large player base over it's uptime. If you look the the populations on WOW's servers though you will see a lot of boredom because the game is/has become boring, yet still people go back to play just like the days of EQ.

 

Thats funny because WoW saw serious subscription growth become more stagnant as it slowly became "ahead of it's time" come post TBC and after. I've not gone back to WoW since they sold me that clown car called WoTLK.

 

 

What every MMO company has issues with in my Opinion, is not the storyline, but the end-game. After getting to level 50, which I find to be the most stupid model for any MMO "Levels", there is nothing to do except like with WOW, wait for an expansion and new armor sets. MMO's do not need levels! This is the "endgame" when you define it with a number. Every player races to get to 50 because it is the "GOAL" in the game that sets the restrictions on advancement. Next is to RAID/BATTLEFIELD to get better gear or something trivial like accommodations for purchasing something that you already worked for by doing the Dungeon or PVP.

 

You forgot to word it correctly. Every mmo has issues with their endgame TODAY for the sake of being a commercial success. Yeah the endgame sucks now, but at least the geico caveman will "experience the content" this time around.

 

Like all MMO companies, they have hired groups to find targets in the marketing for potential customers and they cater to bring in new blood. It is the belief of almost all MMO companies that the average life of a gamer in the MMO is 14 months. As we all know from past experiences though it generally takes 14 months to finish the product with the public as paying BETA testers. With SWTOR I do not mind helping by keeping my sub, but I do expect a strong showing of updates, upgrades, and listening to the "Majority" of certain request from the public about what they want in the game they are paying for.

 

Again, you should have said something more along the lines of all mmo companies TODAY are more worried about being a comercial success than just making a good game. If you don't think SWTOR is up to par, you are indeed not helping by keeping your sub. People understand what shallow commercial sell out means when it comes to music but refuse to apply that to games in the beloved mmo genre theyre soo addicted to. I don't know why people take up this position of altruism with their wallets when it comes to mmos in specific, its perverse. Its tithing for entertainment.

 

I do like the genre of this game since my age puts me as a kid during the release of George Lucas's movies. I was a hardcore SWG player until they added levels to the game, and at that point I knew it was time to move along, there was nothing else to see!.

 

I played SWG for a couple weeks at release, trying to like it. I couldn't get past the sims style gameplay where you could just queue up your actions and watch.

 

My Next MMO if this one does not pan out will be The Secret World. It is a "Sandbox", no level game, and I really enjoy the fact that no matter how you rush, there is no level cap. If you want to change up, relearn your skills and do what you want and be what you want.

I am weary of FUNCOM based on personal experience with them, but if they use this sandbox system, I think it is worth the initial purchse and 30 free days to check it out.

 

Secret world is also the next one I'm trying. If I based Funcom's reputation on AoC alone, I'd never buy secret world. Anarchy Online might be old, have hideous graphics and intolerable gameplay at this point, but theres more actual game depth in one of Anarchy Online's butt hairs than there is in all mmos combined that have released ever since the mmo that was "ahead of it's time" pathed the way to commercialized shake & bake garbage being the industry standard.

[Ezren]

Its ok saying an mmo needs to grow but it should not be growing from a subpar level to whats already out there.

 

TOR started behind the competition but theres no reason it should have done. It cannot be that hard to play a diverse selection of mmo's and pick out what works and what does not and then put all those ideas on the design board and say well these features are must haves, these ideas are quite good but people complained about them so lets try to refine them. These ideas tottaly didnt work in that mmo so we wont do that.

 

Also you need to look at future mmo's and what they are doing and planning. Are they doing anything different and new, can we steal it and make it better.

 

I dunno, it fell short of expectations for many people. It will continue on but the damage its suffered already makes me think of vanguard saga of heroes. Which although is a good mmo never recovered from its early mistakes.

 

 

If you want an MMO that has every feature WoW or some other MMO has thats been out 2+ years....by the time that MMO comes out, WoW and the other current MMO's will have NEW things you want.

 

Do you not see the cycle there? MMO's that are NOT out yet have to release at some point, and they will ALWAYS be behind other MMO's. Its not as simple as like a new PC or Cell Phone you buy.

 

These games take time, money and LOTS of man hours to put together. You cant design ONE then mass produce them. MMO's constantly grow, never stopping, ever. Every day a game spends in development is time they get behind their competition.

 

So again, do you want an MMO that is playing, and grows after it launches, or one that NEVER launched because its community is so vocal about how this "other" game has this and that and they BETTER have it...to the point that the company spendt all their time building the game AND trying to add new features at the SAME TIME till they went bankrupt, cause no money can come in to PAY for new features till the game is launched.

 

You have to look at things logically and take a step back and see why new games lack some features that older games have.

[Tarka]

If you want an MMO that has every feature WoW or some other MMO has thats been out 2+ years....by the time that MMO comes out, WoW and the other current MMO's will have NEW things you want.

 

Do you not see the cycle there? MMO's that are NOT out yet have to release at some point, and they will ALWAYS be behind other MMO's. Its not as simple as like a new PC or Cell Phone you buy.

 

These games take time, money and LOTS of man hours to put together. You cant design ONE then mass produce them. MMO's constantly grow, never stopping, ever. Every day a game spends in development is time they get behind their competition.

 

So again, do you want an MMO that is playing, and grows after it launches, or one that NEVER launched because its community is so vocal about how this "other" game has this and that and they BETTER have it...to the point that the company spendt all their time building the game AND trying to add new features at the SAME TIME till they went bankrupt, cause no money can come in to PAY for new features till the game is launched.

 

You have to look at things logically and take a step back and see why new games lack some features that older games have.

 

You are ignoring the fact that in many cases its the focus on a particular feature that can have a profound impact on the development of all other features prior to launch.

 

With AOC, it was the melee combat.

With Rift, it was the Rift's system.

With SWTOR, it was the "story".

 

Now, whilst it is understandable to try to "design in" a feature that sets the product aside from the rest, sometimes too much focus is paid to that feature at the expense of creating a more "well rounded" product that can adequately compete in the current market.

 

Resulting in the polished "feature" being overshadowed by other elements that are seen to be of lower quality and/or quantity because of that focus.

 

it's like a car company focusing so much on the interior, that they end up under-developing the engine.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Tarka

[kirorx]

I will say what i think could have been done to make this game more fun.

 

1) Side Quests and the leveling

 

Spend less money and time on side quests.

Nobody wants to repeat the same side quests for every character they create; your storyline takes a major back seat to these quests during higher levels.

 

Your advancement should be through main questlines with extra exp if you do either flashpoints, warzone and/or space.

 

As you stated before end game content is where its at, leveling is like the tutorial for your class. If you wnat more storylines save the money and add these quests as post 50 content with awesome fun rewards.

 

2) Less restrictive planets

The planets are such a pain to get around you never go back unless you have some kind of mission there.

They are static and lifeless pieces of art.

They look nice but they are just not mmos environments.

 

Actually with everything so instanced, i dont know why planets are restriced by faction. There could easiliy be republic only accessible areas on korriban.

 

3) Legacy should have been available at launch or at least information given to the community at launch about what to expect.

 

4) appearance tab or make all items *orange*

 

5) Coruscant and Dromund Kass should be the hubs instead of "fleets".