AP/Pyro Builds: Revisiting these. (1/22/18, 0/23/18)

[exphryl]

I wanted to take a moment to revisit the AP/Pyro Build. While the build has been mentioned or brought up well in to the Beta months ago, it seems to be rarely every talked about about here nowadays other than the bit Oozo mentions in his videos. (Which if you read this feel free to input your suggestion since you obviously have been using these builds longer). This is a relatively long post as I want to cover as much as possible.

 

Now let me just say I'm a Pyro guy at heart. . Nothing is more satisifying then knowing the guy on the other end of the computer you just killed has a "What the ****" look on his face. However, I also like to try different builds to better be able to discuss (or argue against) them.

 

The AP/Pyro build has always intrigued be but for some reason I never gave it a thought to actually try. I was to stuck on the high damage of Pyro to really give it a legitimate go ahead.

 

So for the last week I've been playing with these two builds

 

Pre 1.2 Builds:

1/22/18: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#3010zZrsMrobckZfhMbdh.1

0/23/18: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZrsMrobckzZfhMbdh.1

 

1.2 Build Theory:

0/24/17: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301ZrsMrobfkZfhMbdb.1 (I'll explain my reasoning for this a bit later)

Negative Points to these builds:

First, let me get the negative out of the way. This build, will not ever in a million years give the burst Pyro does. If you go up against a Pyro that is good, you'll lose. They can just outdamage anything you can do.

 

For people like myself who are 99% of the time Pyro it will be a bit of a culture shock and a bit clumsy to play to be honest. The first few warzones I tried out while good, were mediocre at best on all counts.

Why I thoroughly enjoy this build:

 

Heat Management:

 

With Pyro, you can have really good heat management with PPA procs (or very bad). The Free Rocket Punch though goes a VERY long way when coupled with PPA to have amazing resource management. Especially since it's the best ability to Proc a PPA. While you'll still overheat in a very fast paced intense PvP Battle, it'll take a lot more to get to that point.

 

Versatility:

Remember how I said you do not take this build for top damage? Yeah. You take it because it's versatile in any situation.

 

- Lower Interupt, Stun, Grapple Cooldown. Obvious. Lots of "Tank" builds have these, nothing special. What's special is you can output high DPS with that.

- Charged Gauntlets for Rail Shot Crit: Not a definiate, but when coupled with a PPA Proc the guaranteed Crit comes in very handy. I'll be honest I'm bad still at using RB and really rely on rocket punch to activate this. This changes drastically with 1.2 though.

- Flame Barrage, grants you your free rocket punch for heat management as stated above.

 

- Hydraulic Overrides. I'll admit, when I really relied on full AP I didn't see what was so fancy about this talent. No knockdowns or knockbacks or root, big whoop. Felt it was mainly a ball carrier skill. However, in the AP/Pyro builds it is AMAZING since it is basically coupled with the mobility and snares Pyro offers.

 

There are some times for fun I'll use this ability and literally run circles around the opponent at 10M. It's pretty funny to watch. As an added benefit, this is GREAT stealther protection, if you can pop it before they Vanish you'll "block" their second hidden strike in their max burst rotations.

 

Also, unlike Jet Charge, I find more uses in general movement in every warzone than what i did with that ability.

 

Damage:

So this is the part you are probably wondering about a bit. What type of damage can you do with your abilities? I'll stick to crit ranges without using cooldowns. Comparing to Pyro (Since that is where most PvP Occurs). Using what I see off of Heavy Armor targets (while 90% ARP for RS, it still is "higher" mitigation then a light armored target)

 

Rail Shot - 1.4-1.7k Non Crit / 2.6K - 3.2K Crit

CGC Dot: 250-320 Non Crit / 550 - 600 Crit

Flame Burst: 700-900 Non Crit / 1.4k - 1.6k Crit

Death From Above: 700-800 Non Crit / 1.5k - 1.8K Crit

 

Those go up a lot when I use Fuel / Power Adrenal / Power Relic. I've managed a 5K Medal just once with this build and gear setup I'm using now so it's still possible, albeit very very rare. Do not go in to a warzone expecting that.

 

Shutting Down Healers:

 

One thing I hear a lot when people mention the Quell cooldown being lower is it's easier to shut down a healer and keep him occupied while his team slowly dies. The benefit to this build, is you can do that AND kill them yourself

 

Don't just look at lower damage numbers, you still have great burst with this build. A lot of current healers will get REALLY thrown off if lets say you are on a Huttball ramp. Open up your attack then pop Hydralic override Right Away. I'd wager 99% of the Sorcs/Mercs out there will use their knockback instinctively when you start attacking him this way. To their surprise you are still beating their face in while keeping their heals locked down.

 

While it wasn't hard to kill Healers as a Pyro build, the knockbacks were a big issue at times without any effective way to counter them. This Helps. I play on a server that it seems like even if you Mark a healer, I still am the only one that ends up attacking them. (I'm pretty sure those Marks are more a deterrent to pugs then they are a help). And since I humor myself with mainly Solo Queuing I like being able to keep a Healer in check.

 

General 1v1 Situations with this spec:

 

Powertech/Vanguard: Easy. Unless they are Pyro then they become Hard/Impossible.

 

Marauders: Medium. The key to beating a marauder is keeping your range. However, they can snare just as good as you can. Having some immunity, even if it's for 8 secs goes a long way to getting some damage in to them before they can get back to you. Leaving them to play catch up on the damage race.

 

Sorcs (Any Spec): Easy. I honestly am starting to feel Sorcs are one of the most underpowered classes in PvP.

 

Snipers: Medium. I hate a great sniper. Luckily there is probably 1% of the Sniper/Gunslinger population that can play their class to optimum potential. Line Of Sight tricks out of the way when they use their cooldowns, Override again comes in to play as they love to knockback/root you when you get on them. You can stay in their face and keep DPS Pressure. However, if they use all their cooldowns, get away. Fast. You'll lose that battle most of the time.

 

Assassins (Tank): Hard. Not much change here, they are still current kings of 1v1 battles. You do have a bit more chance of survival being able to negate their spike with H.O. As well as using it to build some range to beat in to them (Which most likely they'll promptly sprint towards you. But hey, a few seconds of extra damage is extra damage). Save stuns for their force lightning healing. I know it's tempting to use it earlier but without having a knockback it's the ONLY way you'll break it.

 

Assassin: (DPS): Medium. They can do a lot of burst. That's about it though. You have more then enough tools if you survive all their openings to take them out

 

Operatives: Easy - Medium: Healers are a bit of a pain. nothing new. concealment is generally a free kill for you unless they have every cooldown/relic available and if you do not have your break free ability available.

 

Juggernauts (Easy): Use HO when they charge you to break their root and even when they force choke you the duration will be over before HO Expires so you can easily avoid their smash. After that just /point and /laugh at the fact their one useful ability failed and kill them accordingly.

 

Mercenaries: Easy. Doesn't matter which, they are all easy. Healers can be a slight pain if you dont have stuns when they use their Energy Shield since you can't interrupt. So you may just have to wait that out before destroying them. DPS Mercs are still free kills.

 

Gearing Options

 

Armor Sets:

 

I've been trying a plethora of different gear options and really can't decide on what I like best. I've found a use for each of these.

 

4 PC PvE Combat Tech: Obvious benefit being 8% Rail Shot Damage and increase Main Stat/Endurance over PvP Pieces. Nothing is ever bad about higher Rail Shot damage. Really benefits from Charged Gauntlet Procs.

 

4 PC PvP Eliminators: Pretty self explanatory. Higher Crit Chance on RS. Helps for those times you are not getting charge gauntlet Crits

 

2 PC PvP Combat Tech / 2 PC PvP Combat Medic: You are probably wondering why I threw this in here. Did i forget to mention how well this build can "tank"? With so many dots for rail shot and being able to still burn the target for PPA running Ion with this build great in times. Either way, whether you run CGC or Ion the purpose of these sets are to get longer Carbonize, Shorter CC Break, as well as longer energy shield to withstand a bit more damage. I usually actually PvP in this set up as it helps my survivability a lot, when I want to run Ion i'll use an Endurance stim with it.

 

Modding and Enhancements:

 

To each their own on this. The original purpose to me doing this build is I waned more survivability and utility while keeping a fair amount of damage available. As a result I changed out all my enhancements for 40End/38 End Variants with power and surge secondary stats on those.

 

Every one of my gear pieces has these enhancements. This obviously will change as I have to figure out which enhancements i saved go back in what BM pieces for the chagne out =/ But for now I'm sitting rougly around 18.5k+ HP buffed (19K with Columi set).

 

The secondary benefit to High HP is if you pop your medpack then use your Kolto Heals you'll get more back per tick. The Vent Heat heal is going away but for now if you want to get a bit more extra healing the (0/23/18) is the one you want to use.

 

Theory Crafting 1.2

 

So I posted a 0/24/17 build earlier and said I would revisit that. Now, let me say I am NOT on the PTS so this is merely food for thought.

 

While situational, it will be easy to keep the 5 stacked flamethrower proc baked for you to use whenever you want with this build. There are times an AOE snare CAN be useful. (i.e atttacking voidstar, you can snare most of the enemy team in the tunnels to give your team time to advance if they are clustered on mainly one side).

 

Yes, the PPA Proc rate is a silly change and not maxing it out is sillier. But I figure 2 points would be what roughly 3 points now is so you'll still get ample procs for it not to be terrible.

 

But, that could all change once 1.2 actually hits so I'll keep this purely as a theory.

 

Full Match Videos:

 

Some full match videos of the spec in work. These were when I first started trying it so I obviously know I needed improvement. (Didn't manage some of the AP Procs well enough when I had to choose between one or the other for maximum effect)

 

Huttball:

 

TLDR Version:

 

Fun build, very versatile, great utility, great damage, not full pyro damage.

Edited March 26, 2012 by exphryl

[Theology]

I'm personally thinking 8/11/22 for a post 1.2 build, assuming PPA stays at 6 seconds.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301hMhZMsMRZfhMbdG0M.1

[Malvantyr]

If you are going to run the hybrid, 0/24/17 will be the best.

[Theology]

I disagree, maybe 7/12/22 for the 2nd point in quell, but I don't find enough benefits of going up the AP tree that far. Just my opinion.

[Theology]

The free RP is nice, but I find with ~45% CC on RS that going for Charged Gauntlets is a waste.

[Malvantyr]

The free RP is nice, but I find with ~45% CC on RS that going for Charged Gauntlets is a waste.

 

People are looking for a filler later in their rotation during the proc timer, a super charged flamethrower is a nice addition.

 

You could now use the combat tech set bonus, and have high crit for rocket punch and RS.

[Theology]

Good points. Worth pondering for sure.

[Nanarchist]

Yeah, plus his build give the lovely Hydraulic Overrides that is a extremely powerfull skill.

[mrObtuse]

the hydraulic override is the real benefit, so that's why you set up the build to go that far.there's a similar spec for tanks that has it instead of charge because that's way more useful in the flashpoints where you ragdolled to maximum degree while trying to start enemy pulls.

 

i am a big fan of the prototype flame thrower / pulse generator skill too----

[Nydar]

I am very interested in this patch post nerf, the problem is I am expected to tank in pvp by my guild, and not seeing how I'll be able to do that with this spec, I have a feeling I'd like it better than my current CP spec in pve though.

[exphryl]

I am very interested in this patch post nerf, the problem is I am expected to tank in pvp by my guild, and not seeing how I'll be able to do that with this spec, I have a feeling I'd like it better than my current CP spec in pve though.

 

Just fiddling with Torhead. If you wanted something similar this is all I was able to come up with. Never tried it as I was just going over the talent calc.

 

(15/24/2) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRrbzZrsbrobfkZb.1

 

Weaker RPs obviously then a full tank build, but potentially better heat management. And you obviously trade Jet Charge for HO (Where while I love Jet Charge, I find little use for it outside of Huttball).

 

You do manage some the improved flamethrower with patch, and some tanking talents (as well as no-gcd oil slick now) so it could work in some aspect? Dunno would have to try it to really see.

 

Tanking in PvP is always a bit of a touchy subject =/

[Nydar]

Just fiddling with Torhead. If you wanted something similar this is all I was able to come up with. Never tried it as I was just going over the talent calc.

 

(15/24/2) http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#301GRrbzZrsbrobfkZb.1

 

Weaker RPs obviously then a full tank build, but potentially better heat management. And you obviously trade Jet Charge for HO (Where while I love Jet Charge, I find little use for it outside of Huttball).

 

You do manage some the improved flamethrower with patch, and some tanking talents (as well as no-gcd oil slick now) so it could work in some aspect? Dunno would have to try it to really see.

 

Tanking in PvP is always a bit of a touchy subject =/

 

 

I totally messed that up. I meant that I would like the spec after 1.2(0/24/17) for pvp but in pve i am expected to tank and not sure I could do it with that build. That's what I loved about CP, I did good pvp dps and could still tank Hard modes.

 

Shieldtech seems wasteful in pvp because your shields don't actually shield force or tech attacks, but obviously for pve that spec is optimal. I like the ironfist spec too, but for some reason the 0/24/17 post 1.2 you linked has captured my imagination.

[Nydar]

And you're right about jet charge but on my server huttball is well over 50% of your bgs so its hard for me to let it go.

[exphryl]

And you're right about jet charge but on my server huttball is well over 50% of your bgs so its hard for me to let it go.

 

Heh. The new WZ and them making wz's same faction should be helpful to alleviate the huttball pains.

[Nydar]

Heh. The new WZ and them making wz's same faction should be helpful to alleviate the huttball pains.

 

That's going to mean lower ques but really sort of isn't good for your faction pride and sense of community.

[Wallach]

It's definitely something I'd want to play around with on the PTS if I could get copied over. Not always easy to get an idea of how specs play on paper. Lots of value trading going on here.

 

Just going by gut feelings, I feel like I'd rather play deep AP in 1.2 to get the 6 second RB snare, and I'd definitely rather be playing in HEC not just for the heat management & movespeed skills but for the additional multiplier (including the damage we're forced to leave behind from Shield Tech's 8 pts). Between the HEC multiplier, Prototype Weapons Systems, Immolate and the Shield Tech 8 I feel like too much damage is being given up to get up to PPA.

[Agooz]

I also see hybrid AP/Pyro is below deep AP and deep Pyro in damage and burst.

 

I personally will try this spec running in CGC. I dont think Heat management will be worse that a shieldtech. Since RS will pretty much crit all the time, you dont really need Puncture. Just 1 point to move up the tree. So you get access to all the utilities of the AP tree with the nice damage of CGC. Deep AP 2/31/8

http://r2-db.com/skill-tree/calculator/9/bounty-hunter/powertech#build=2000000002d8ec6fd7f9ci0000000

Edited April 2, 2012 by Agooz

[Nydar]

So confused, I am not so much upset about 1.2 killing my beloved CP spec, but I now have no idea what I want to do. If shield tech was viable in pvp I'd just go with it, if they went ahead and gave us dual spec this wouldn't be nearly as large an issue for me.

[ceelaniri]

As mentioned in previous threads about this build (perhaps on the Vanguard forum), you swap burst for survivability and better kiting skills.

 

you can improve the mobility by switching the 2 points in Infrared Sensors for Degauss which will give you another root breaker (I use it as such rather than for the shield itself).

 

LOS> Mitigation when it come to avoid damage.

 

HO brings more options when it comes to being chased by any melee class.

[Yestreen]

I always appreciate your videos/posts Exphryl.

 

The spec looks fun, and heat management/utility looks great, but It just can't compete with Pyro's burst in my view.