Vengeance Juggernauts, Are You Happy About 1.2?

[Cempa]

As I understand it regarding the new level 10 passive that stuns on Force Charge the immobilize part still functions, and that is the only (?) part that Vengeance Juggernauts are not happy about?

 

PvP wise.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Cempa

[Vember]

Kind of on the fence. I like the self heal, don't like the cost. Don't like that we're losing our smash damage increase, and I don't like that our dots still suck and have no real utility other than being weak *** damage. Don't like the loss of huddle. As far as the charge stun, resolve is a busted system anyway, don't really think Crash is going to make a difference either way.

 

Meh...not too terribly unhappy, but nothing to get excited about either.

Edited March 24, 2012 by Vember

[Bastus]

I was expecting the defensive and mobility based updates we we're promised. What I got was my talents shuffled, a 2 sec stun that I already had, and a Heal over Time that isn't worth it's cost. So no, I'm not very happy.

[Nemmar]

I'm happy. The new stun might end up beeing more useful than not since it only triggers every 12 seconds and i dont seem to be able to cause resolve to trigger easily with just force push and force choke. Hopefully it helps with lag issues aswell so we dont see targets of our force push heading off toward the opposite direction from where we threw them.

 

I am digging the extra rage we are gonna get with the cooldown resets of ravage aswell as the talent that will increase the damage of ravage hopefuly making it useful (aswell as it not beeing interruptable by other classes).

 

Personally i see a damage buff to ravage and the aoe slash and a rage generation buff wich can end up on using more finishers. Also the new defensive cooldown sounds useful aslong as it doesnt completely consume our rage. Not much reason to QQ imo.

 

Oh yeah... and we can use vicious throw at 30% now, wich is pretty good for us given the high crit chance we get on it. Unfortunely marauders are getting this buff aswell, so i see it getting nerfed soon (they definitly dont need more PDS buffs).

 

Kind of on the fence. I like the self heal, don't like the cost. Don't like that we're losing our smash damage increase, and I don't like that our dots still suck and have no real utility other than being weak *** damage. Don't like the loss of huddle. As far as the charge stun, resolve is a busted system anyway, don't really think Crash is going to make a difference either way.

 

Meh...not too terribly unhappy, but nothing to get excited about either.

 

 

The talent only got moved to the rage tree (the smash damage increase), we can still get it. With the buff to rage generation there wont be any need to get anything but the improved sundering assault on the immortal tree and that frees up talent points for the rage tree.

Edited March 25, 2012 by Nemmar

[Raycyst]

The talent only got moved to the rage tree (the smash damage increase), we can still get it. With the buff to rage generation there wont be any need to get anything but the improved sundering assault on the immortal tree and that frees up talent points for the rage tree.

 

I'm thinking the same thing. With Smash only moving over, there shouldn't be -too- much of an effect on the overall output. It will, however, create interesting point management to maintain maximized output.

 

Battle Cry (Immortal tree) going to a 2-point talent is also nice. I don't hear of too many Veng Juggs taking Battle Cry because of the cost to get it; this will now allow for 5 total points to be spent in Immortal to get BC and ISA.

 

In the Rage tree, Decimate will obviously be taken and Ravager is now interesting, at least. Personally, Ravage is really not all that attractive; the channel ruins it for me (perhaps if it was shorter like Smash was in WoW I'd be more impressed). That doesn't say I -don't- use Ravage, it's just never high on the priority list, and may become even lower on the list with the increased Rage regeneration.

 

So, without seeing a new talent calc, I'm thinking 5/33/3 might become my spec.

[Dracosz]

With regard to PvE.

 

I'm quite pleased with the changes, rampage now has a use and we have better synchronization throughout the entirety of the tree.

 

For PvP:

 

To an extent, I'm happy. Losing huddle is lame (because it was really only bad juggernauts that could not make effective use of it). On the other had, our enraged defense isn't too shabby for us since we will have the rage generation to make use of it.

 

The change to charge with the forced stun is lame, but thankfully it has an internal CD and to be perfectly honest, it only opens up the skill cap for focus leaps and chokes (which I've been using for quite some time).

 

Losing decimate is probably the only thing that particularly irks me, however, we have reason to pick up ravager now (since it's a direct damage increase).

 

For my spec come patch, it's looking like I will likely play 4/34/3 or 4/33/4. 7/34/0 may still have a place, but the new rampage might just be too good to pass up. I'm going to experiment and see what comes of it.

 

The patch is a good one, despite what people are saying. It's accomplished making some talents useful and I have faith that there will be more things coming up ahead that make the tree even better.

 

 

Look for the positives, fellow juggernauts

[Elyx]

Im pretty satisfied with the changes. Not everything I would have hoped for, but I do take into account that my vision is limited by what I know.

 

And I don't PvP. so the resolve thing is a moot point from my perspective. it's actually a great bonus on PvE, simply because it's 2 less seconds that initial mob is hitting me. less damage? sounds good!

 

If someone was asking me if it was the end all of patches...no. But it's a solid step in the right direction, with nothing really wrong.

 

I would have liked a bit more added to our DoT's. but if our damage is currently good now (so far looks like it is), then adding more to the DoT's would give us too much DPS. so jury's out on that one. they shuffled few skills...didn't like how they moved our smash damage increase to the rage tree and gave us more damage mitigation as talents. I personally believe that giving us some better baseline mitigation would be better.

 

But we did get some of that. only it's got a pretty heavy price atm. So not sure if the price of admission is worth it. but it's definitely not a nerf, so my only concern about that is it's viability. If you give someone a great skill, but with a high price, it doesn't matter how great the skill is, people wont use it if the price is too high.

 

But again, nothing but some small shifts and adjustments, and the other items are actual buffs (even if indirect and/or expensive resource-wise).so I'm happy. My vengeance jugg will still be rabidly played along with my second one I'm leveling (I've been resisting vengeance on this one so i can try leveling as immortal..so far smooth. no worse then leveling as vengeance, but I am using a DPS companion vs. the healer.)

[WarSiren]

Excited? Not really, Not upset either just kinda there. They haven't done anything that will overly affect my performance Crash sucks but that just means I'll have to get used to perhaps charging the Ball carriers support rather than the ball carrier now as to not build unneeded resolve onto the BC for better stuns, and KBs. It'll be kinda nice to have more rage generation from my actual tree so I can take some points out of Immortal and go into Rage a tad. So we'll see when I can properly test things.

[AllanGand]

The stun takes away from the effect of unstoppable in a 1vs1 situation in that you really are getting usefulness out of the effect of unstoppable for 2 seconds instead of 4. The only other place it will suck is in huttball, because now you won't be able to jump to someone and push them off if they already have any resolve.

 

 

The patch is amazing for pve imo, not all that good for pvp but we'll live with it.

[Cempa]

I just tried Marauder middle tree -Carnage- and honestly its is so much better than Vengeance, it just does not compare.

 

As for the survivability, you kill stuff so fast people fear you and that is one of its best defenses in that people run away from you.

 

Moreover; as a Marauder you ave the ability to just reset the fight, leave....

 

Immobilizes in Carnage are phenomenal and players -ranged- will get hit hard!

[Dracosz]

I just tried Marauder middle tree -Carnage- and honestly its is so much better than Vengeance, it just does not compare.

 

As for the survivability, you kill stuff so fast people fear you and that is one of its best defenses in that people run away from you.

 

Moreover; as a Marauder you ave the ability to just reset the fight, leave....

 

Immobilizes in Carnage are phenomenal and players -ranged- will get hit hard!

 

They're entirely different trees for entirely different classes.

[-Duality-]

They're entirely different trees for entirely different classes.

 

I don't think that was the point. I see you guys steadfastly support this spec, and I wonder why none of that translates in to what people are actually playing. I almost never see anyone else playing vengeance on my server, period. But I see marauder, sorc, assasin, operative, merc, powertech, rage dps all the time. Why is that? Is vengeance viable? absolutely. Is it fun to play? absolutely. Does it do anything better than anyone else? Eh, not really. Sustained dps and Unstoppable is all I see. We'll see how the next patch pans out.

 

And for clarification, the eye test of what people are playing is really the only thing i can base a judgement off of since there are no damage meters, combat log, etc.

Edited March 28, 2012 by -Duality-

[LordExozone]

I'm happy with the changes. I mean, sure it could have been better, but Vengeance is already a nice spec and with these changes it's getting somewhat better.

 

As a recap, we get a new defensive ability we can pop while CC'ed. Vengeance is the spec benefiting most from it due to our generous rage generation.

Additionally Ravage gets buffed and Vengeance is the spec that has the most focus on Ravage.

Add in a nice rage generation buff to Rampage, and the former Rage talent Deadly Throw and yes I'm happy.

 

The loss of Huddle is too bad, as is the loss of Decimate. The latter especially since the talent we get for it (extra root time on charge) is rather terrible.

[-SWA-]

Haven't played the new spec thusfar, curious to see how it'll turn out. So far, what I am most happy about is the damagebuff to Ravage. I know many on the boards aren't a great fan of Ravage, but I sure as hell am (mainly because I think a combinationattack is awesome).

 

Certain talents in the Vengeance tree support the notion that Ravage it to be regularly used. People have questioned this, since a rotation w/o Ravage seemed more effective. I personally hope this buff to Ravage makes Ravage useful beyond doubt.

 

The loss of the +endurance power is a bit of a pity; as for the healingpower, I've yet to see how effective this new power is going to be.

 

Overall, I'm not unhappy about the changes.

[Vodrin]

The stun takes away from the effect of unstoppable in a 1vs1 situation in that you really are getting usefulness out of the effect of unstoppable for 2 seconds instead of 4. The only other place it will suck is in huttball, because now you won't be able to jump to someone and push them off if they already have any resolve.

 

 

The patch is amazing for pve imo, not all that good for pvp but we'll live with it.

 

Remember that a 2sec stun only gives 400 resolve and it takes 1000 to trigger. So if they have less than 1/2 a bar you can still jump to them and immediately trigger force push. That will white bar them, but it will still work.

[Dracosz]

I don't think that was the point. I see you guys steadfastly support this spec, and I wonder why none of that translates in to what people are actually playing. I almost never see anyone else playing vengeance on my server, period. But I see marauder, sorc, assasin, operative, merc, powertech, rage dps all the time. Why is that? Is vengeance viable? absolutely. Is it fun to play? absolutely. Does it do anything better than anyone else? Eh, not really. Sustained dps and Unstoppable is all I see. We'll see how the next patch pans out.

 

And for clarification, the eye test of what people are playing is really the only thing i can base a judgement off of since there are no damage meters, combat log, etc.

 

In PvP Vengeance Juggernauts have high rage generation and good uptime on targets as well as access to a free spammable AoE snare. They also have the best crit rates on vicious throw and come patch that will be even better for us. We also bring taunts and guard (if you're a good juggernaut and stance-dance as needed) and have VERY hard hitting abilities.

[AidenPryde]

Haven't played the new spec thusfar, curious to see how it'll turn out. So far, what I am most happy about is the damagebuff to Ravage. I know many on the boards aren't a great fan of Ravage, but I sure as hell am (mainly because I think a combinationattack is awesome).

 

Certain talents in the Vengeance tree support the notion that Ravage it to be regularly used. People have questioned this, since a rotation w/o Ravage seemed more effective. I personally hope this buff to Ravage makes Ravage useful beyond doubt.

 

The loss of the +endurance power is a bit of a pity; as for the healingpower, I've yet to see how effective this new power is going to be.

 

Overall, I'm not unhappy about the changes.

 

Ravage is only useful if the target is not moving.

 

Vengeance should have a low tier talent that makes Ravage root the target just like the Marauder has (It boggles my mind that this isn't already the case).

 

Ravage is a buggy skill because if you trigger Ravage right as the target moves out of range (according to the server) then the self root and animation will play but the ability will not actually be triggered. So you are stuck there.

 

Until this is added I do not think Ravage is all that useful outside of the times when someone else has stunned the target.

[Valcore]

I'm thinking the same thing. With Smash only moving over, there shouldn't be -too- much of an effect on the overall output. It will, however, create interesting point management to maintain maximized output.

 

Battle Cry (Immortal tree) going to a 2-point talent is also nice. I don't hear of too many Veng Juggs taking Battle Cry because of the cost to get it; this will now allow for 5 total points to be spent in Immortal to get BC and ISA.

 

In the Rage tree, Decimate will obviously be taken and Ravager is now interesting, at least. Personally, Ravage is really not all that attractive; the channel ruins it for me (perhaps if it was shorter like Smash was in WoW I'd be more impressed). That doesn't say I -don't- use Ravage, it's just never high on the priority list, and may become even lower on the list with the increased Rage regeneration.

 

So, without seeing a new talent calc, I'm thinking 5/33/3 might become my spec.

 

 

Actually, it seems the talent was changed also.. Decimate moved to the rage tree, and only allows for '2' points, not '3', so maxing the talent only increases smash dmg by 20%, not 30%. =(

[Cempa]

Ravage is only useful if the target is not moving.

 

Vengeance should have a low tier talent that makes Ravage root the target just like the Marauder has (It boggles my mind that this isn't already the case).

 

Ravage is a buggy skill because if you trigger Ravage right as the target moves out of range (according to the server) then the self root and animation will play but the ability will not actually be triggered. So you are stuck there.

 

Until this is added I do not think Ravage is all that useful outside of the times when someone else has stunned the target.

 

Like I said, Carnage is just so much better!

[-Duality-]

In PvP Vengeance Juggernauts have high rage generation and good uptime on targets as well as access to a free spammable AoE snare. They also have the best crit rates on vicious throw and come patch that will be even better for us. We also bring taunts and guard (if you're a good juggernaut and stance-dance as needed) and have VERY hard hitting abilities.

 

Look, all I play is vengeance. I just have a love hate relationship with it. It's a blast to play, but I think it's weaker than most other dps specs (my personal belief is lower overall dps). Whatever the case may be, I think if the spec were in a good place, you'd see a lot more people playing it. As it stands now, it has a stigma for being bad, so people don't play it. And I honestly don't think it just has a skill-cap too high for the average player. Taunts and guard if you stance dance are things the spec does, but does not do better than anyone else. Plenty of other specs bring those tools. And "VERY had hitting abilities" just confuses me if you're talking about anything other than vicious throw which you can't use most of the time. Very hard hitting in comparison to who?

[WarSiren]

Look, all I play is vengeance. I just have a love hate relationship with it. It's a blast to play, but I think it's weaker than most other dps specs (my personal belief is lower overall dps). Whatever the case may be, I think if the spec were in a good place, you'd see a lot more people playing it. As it stands now, it has a stigma for being bad, so people don't play it. And I honestly don't think it just has a skill-cap too high for the average player. Taunts and guard if you stance dance are things the spec does, but does not do better than anyone else. Plenty of other specs bring those tools. And "VERY had hitting abilities" just confuses me if you're talking about anything other than vicious throw which you can't use most of the time. Very hard hitting in comparison to who?

 

You should watch his stream sometime. I'm pretty sure you're just bad.

[Vid-szhite]

I don't think that was the point. I see you guys steadfastly support this spec, and I wonder why none of that translates in to what people are actually playing. I almost never see anyone else playing vengeance on my server, period. But I see marauder, sorc, assasin, operative, merc, powertech, rage dps all the time. Why is that? Is vengeance viable? absolutely. Is it fun to play? absolutely. Does it do anything better than anyone else? Eh, not really. Sustained dps and Unstoppable is all I see. We'll see how the next patch pans out.

 

And for clarification, the eye test of what people are playing is really the only thing i can base a judgement off of since there are no damage meters, combat log, etc.

 

Everyone plays Rage in PvP because everyone declared it the PvP spec, and since it puts out big numbers and is AoE based, you get easy chart toppers in PvP. Unfortunately, Rage is getting nerfed to both its burst (Decimate is a 2 pointer now) and its sustained (no more Force Alacrity), and in my experience, Rage only works against players who aren't expecting you. If anyone recognizes you as a known Rage Juggernaut, they immediately switch tactics and can prevent you from ever landing your Smash, and you'll do worse than Vengeance.

 

Vengeance, I have found, is FAR better at picking off single targets, which will only get better in 1.2 with the Vicious Throw buff. The best part about Vengeance is that it punishes your enemies for trying to shut you down, and a lot of its advantages play off of the fear of Rage Juggernauts. If they CC or KB you with Unstoppable running, you cause them to waste their CCs. If they use anything with a slow attached to it (which is everything), your damage increases. If they hit you with any kind of AoE (Sage and Commando knockbacks count), your rage increases by two points. Rage is good at hitting unprepared players, but Vengeance is the change-up that punishes players for being complacent in their preparation.

 

As Rage, your rotation is built completely around Crit Smash, so you're doing craptastic DPS until it's ready, using mostly Rage builders. Vengeance has a cripplingly powerful rotation that has the potential to surpass Rage completely against a single target, because when it gets in the fray, it's not immediately trying to build rage and keep its targets close, it's using every tool it has to blast the target to kingdom come, and a big part of the reason it does well even side by side with rage is because it has so many powerful attacks that recharge quickly, so even though Rage has a single huge hit, Vengeance has so many large hits that it more than evens out.

[Vid-szhite]

Very hard hitting in comparison to who?

 

Rage's rotation when Crit Smash ain't ready - and we can go 2 full rotations before they have another one ready. Mercenary's rotation. Sniper's rotation. I believe it to be equal to Marauder's rotation. What more do you want?

 

Also: Crit Smash only does 3000-4000 damage unless you're Biochem with a Rakata Adrenal. Impale + Force Scream + dots already equalizes that, and Vengeance similarly benefits from rakata adrenals. Shatter = Force Crush in base damage, but Shatter has half the cooldown and is 100% internal damage.

 

Your DPS skyrockets against raid bosses when they reach 20% (to become 30%), and your VT crits in PVP seal your victim's fate - VT is much more easily available than Crit Smash, hits just as hard, and has a 10m range.

Edited March 30, 2012 by Vid-szhite

[-SWA-]

Ravage is only useful if the target is not moving.

 

Vengeance should have a low tier talent that makes Ravage root the target just like the Marauder has (It boggles my mind that this isn't already the case).

 

Ravage is a buggy skill because if you trigger Ravage right as the target moves out of range (according to the server) then the self root and animation will play but the ability will not actually be triggered. So you are stuck there.

 

Until this is added I do not think Ravage is all that useful outside of the times when someone else has stunned the target.

 

I should have added I only play PvE, so the non-moving part isn't as essential to me as it is to a PvP'er. Thus the moving out of range thing isn't my concern either. The game-AI doesn't do that

 

In conclusion, I like Ravage, but I do understand its disadvantages for those who would like to use it in PvP.

[-SWA-]

Vengeance, I have found, is FAR better at picking off single targets, which will only get better in 1.2 with the Vicious Throw buff. The best part about Vengeance is that it punishes your enemies for trying to shut you down, and a lot of its advantages play off of the fear of Rage Juggernauts. If they CC or KB you with Unstoppable running, you cause them to waste their CCs. If they use anything with a slow attached to it (which is everything), your damage increases. If they hit you with any kind of AoE (Sage and Commando knockbacks count), your rage increases by two points. Rage is good at hitting unprepared players, but Vengeance is the change-up that punishes players for being complacent in their preparation.

 

As Rage, your rotation is built completely around Crit Smash, so you're doing craptastic DPS until it's ready, using mostly Rage builders. Vengeance has a cripplingly powerful rotation that has the potential to surpass Rage completely against a single target, because when it gets in the fray, it's not immediately trying to build rage and keep its targets close, it's using every tool it has to blast the target to kingdom come, and a big part of the reason it does well even side by side with rage is because it has so many powerful attacks that recharge quickly, so even though Rage has a single huge hit, Vengeance has so many large hits that it more than evens out.

 

You know, I have NEVER played a PvP-battle in this game thusfar, but if anyone ever made Vengeance sound cool, it's you. I'm glad I play Vengeance!

 

*nods* Cheers, sir.