Jedis vs Ultramarines. Siths vs Ultramarines. Who´d won ?

[DeathShadoww]

As was stated earlier it doesnt really matter if most of the universe dies how do you fight Chaos and the Chaos gods themselves when the Emperor is not holding them at bay?

[MORTTUUM]

Someone's got a bias.

 

Not a bias at all. I have $100s of 40K stuff, I love it. But Dogmatic forces, historically, ALWAYS lose to opponents who think and act creatively. The Nazis were the most poweful army in Europe 1940; they had everything, materially, that they needed for total victory, but they failed for reasons based entirely on their dogmatic mental-state. The USSR fell for the same reasons. The Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, French, every "great" empire in history; (nearly) all failed for the same reason.

 

The entire 40K universe, save for the Orks, is totally stagnant and unchanging; SW is not. SW forces (for example, but hardly exclusively) would work out what the 40K universe' forces weaknesses are and exploit them on the way to victory.

[Captain_Zone]

Not a bias at all. I have $100s of 40K stuff, I love it. But Dogmatic forces, historically, ALWAYS lose to opponents who think and act creatively. The Nazis were the most poweful army in Europe 1940; they had everything, materially, that they needed for total victory, but they failed for reasons based entirely on their dogmatic mental-state. The USSR fell for the same reasons. The Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, French, every "great" empire in history; (nearly) all failed for the same reason.

 

The entire 40K universe, save for the Orks, is totally stagnant and unchanging; SW is not. SW forces (for example, but hardly exclusively) would work out what the 40K universe' forces weaknesses are and exploit them on the way to victory.

 

That is because Orks (and Orcs) rule.

 

I highly recommend the book "Grunts" by Mary Gentle. Good stuff from the Orc's point of view.

[Aximand]

I think ultramarines win but warhammer 40k is not the most powerful scifi setting by a long shot tengen toppa gurren lagann anyone?

 

I don't think anyone in Gurren Lagann can destroy planets on accident if they don't have good enough control over their psychic powers.

[KingKolKappi]

The tengen toppa gurren lagann was 10 billion light years tall planetary destruction was the least of its capabilities Edited March 26, 2012 by KingKolKappi

[Rayla_Felana]

As was stated earlier it doesnt really matter if most of the universe dies how do you fight Chaos and the Chaos gods themselves when the Emperor is not holding them at bay?

 

Precisely.

[Ivanblood]

Some of the feats demonstrated while in this state:

 

Superhuman speed. (Luke Skywalker was able to move so fast he appeared to vanish. We are talking DBZ levels of speed here.)

Superhuman strength. (In this state both Luke, Ganner, and Jacen Solo exhibited extreme amounts of strength.)

Superhuman stamina. (Jedi in this state do not become tired.)

Superhuman Force abilities. (Ganner was throwing tanks and huge statues in his state.)

Immunity to pain and injury. (Jedi who perform this technique are immune to any pain, or the effects of any injury for the duration. Examples include: Functioning rationally and without a drop in combat prowess after losing part of the brain, immunity to poison, fatal wounds such as pierced vital organs such as hearts and lungs, removed limbs, and more.)

 

 

Half of this list is what the average Space Marine possesses just as a matter of course. They have superhuman speed, they have superhuman strength, they don't need to sleep for weeks on end, they literally can not feel pain unless half of their chest is blasted open and they're missing most of their major organs, to which they have backup organs that will keep them alive and fighting. In fact, the only one that the average Space Marine doesn't have is the super mind powers.

 

A little doubt is left for me. While it´s true that

Half of this list is what the average Space Marine possesses just as a matter of course

 

But I never heard that Ultramarines have "Superhuman speed". A speed so fast the jedi appeares to vanish.

 

Ultramarines certainly have a superhuman reaction like raise a bolter and shoot, but not the power of super fast movement. In no book or movie, I saw or heard that ultramarines can move like a bolt.

 

The ability of Jedi to shorten the distance in a blink of an eye is a pretty big stuff.

 

Besides you forget of telekinetic abilities of Jedis. They can litterally disassemble the droids with a wave of the hand.

Watch here in 4.27 and 4.39 sec.

What impact would this ability have on servosuits of ultramarines ? Would Jedi be able to provoke malfunctions in them and the weapons?

 

Besides Jedis CAN use long distance weapons, and becoming one with the force, they certainly will be deadly precise.

 

Furthermore, seeing ultramarines force and weaponry, Jedis would certainly use gerrilla and ninja tactics. They would be able sabotage Ultramariens supply lines and infiltrate their installations.

 

Ultramarines, instead, would certainly choose defensive and ground pounding tactics. The problem is how you kill something when you can not see it ( check the gerrilla and ninja tactics argument again ). Besides being 8 feets tall and of one tonne of weight doesn´t make you a king of stealthy tactics, but a huge red circle for sniper fire.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ivanblood

[Rayla_Felana]

A little doubt is left for me. While it´s true that

 

 

But I never heard that Ultramarines have "Superhuman speed". A speed so fast the jedi appeares to vanish.

 

Ultramarines certainly have a superhuman reaction like raise a bolter and shoot, but not the power of super fast movement. In no book or movie, I saw or heard that ultramarines can move like a bolt.

 

The ability of Jedi to shorten the distance in a blink of an eye is a pretty big stuff.

 

Besides you forget of telekinetic abilities of Jedis. They can litterally disassemble the droids with a wave of the hand.

Watch here in 4.27 sec.

What impact would this ability have on servosuits of ultramarines ? Would Jedi be able to provoke malfunctions in them and the weapons?

 

Besides Jedis CAN use long distance weapons, and becoming one with the force, they certainly will be deadly precise.

 

Furthermore, seeing ultramarines force and weaponry, Jedis would certainly use gerrilla and ninja tactics. They would be able sabotage Ultramariens supply lines and infeltrate in their installations.

 

Ultramarines, instead, would certainly choose defensive and ground pounding tactics. The problem is how you kill something when you can see it ( check the gerrilla and ninja tactics argument again ). Besides being 8 feets tall and of one tonne of weight doesn´t make you a king of stealthy tactics.

 

Actually let me put this in perspective.

 

EDIT: forget this part and read the post below mine.

 

But regardless, their technology is such that they can track things moving at FTL speeds, you can move as fast as you want, that Krak Missile is still going to blow you up, regardless.

 

not to mention the visors in their helmets let them track enemies moving at incredible speeds, and when you mix that with the deadly accuracy of a Space Marine and the sheer volumes of firepower that Space Marine squads unleash, the Jedi are still getting shot at and killed, you are right that the Ultramarines would seek a defensive position, a killzone in particular, it is what they are famous for, and then as soon you attack them, you are going to receive bombardment the size of heavy artillery, Jedi are fast, but not so fast as to evade explosions in their face's.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

[Aximand]

A little doubt is left for me. While it´s true that

 

 

But I never heard that Ultramarines have "Superhuman speed". A speed so fast the jedi appeares to vanish.

 

Ultramarines certainly have a superhuman reaction like raise a bolter and shoot, but not the power of super fast movement. In no book or movie, I saw or heard that ultramarines can move like a bolt.

 

The ability of Jedi to shorten the distance in a blink of an eye is a pretty big stuff.

 

Besides you forget of telekinetic abilities of Jedis. They can litterally disassemble the droids with a wave of the hand.

Watch here in 4.27 and 4.39 sec.

What impact would this ability have on servosuits of ultramarines ? Would Jedi be able to provoke malfunctions in them and the weapons?

 

Besides Jedis CAN use long distance weapons, and becoming one with the force, they certainly will be deadly precise.

 

Furthermore, seeing ultramarines force and weaponry, Jedis would certainly use gerrilla and ninja tactics. They would be able sabotage Ultramariens supply lines and infiltrate their installations.

 

Ultramarines, instead, would certainly choose defensive and ground pounding tactics. The problem is how you kill something when you can not see it ( check the gerrilla and ninja tactics argument again ). Besides being 8 feets tall and of one tonne of weight doesn´t make you a king of stealthy tactics, but a huge red circle for sniper fire.

 

 

Its been stated in many, many novels that Space Marines are able to move at a speed that normal humans are completely unable to track with unaided eyesight.

 

The Jedi being able to do that isn't nearly as impressive as you think it is, considering what Space Marines fight on a regular basis (Howling Banshee), in fact they regularly face worse (Genestealers). Basically, the Jedi are old hat.

 

I can safely say that that would have almost no effect on the servos of Power Armor in the 40K universe. Its built to resist much, much more powerful forces than that.

 

Yes, Jedi can use ranged weapons. But they hate doing so. Conversely, a Space Marine can hit a human sized target in the eye a hundred meters out with a Bolt Pistol with a snap shot. That's not even a veteran.

 

Also: becoming one with the Force isn't something the average Jedi can do.

 

Ultramarines are pretty strict adherents to the Codex Astartes, the Codex covers counter-guerrilla warfare tactics. And you would be pretty surprised at how damn sneaky a Space Marine can be.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Aximand

[billyboyjennings]

But I never heard that Ultramarines have "Superhuman speed". A speed so fast the jedi appeares to vanish.

 

Ultramarines certainly have a superhuman reaction like raise a bolter and shoot, but not the power of super fast movement. In no book or movie, I saw or heard that ultramarines can move like a bolt.

 

Here you go:

 

Brothers of the Snake, Pg. 63

 

"They came out from behind the trees around her, two, then three, then five, all told: five primuls in a circle around her, their eyes like murder for what she had done to their kin.

They threw themselves at her.

For many years afterwards, for the rest of her life, in fact, Perdet Suiton Antoni often wondered how none of them heard him coming. He was just there, suddenly. How could something that big move so fast and so silently, and appear without notice? Between the moment when the primuls began to spring and the moment when they would have fallen upon her, the giant appeared and interposed himself between her and the foul, pouncing creatures. It was almost as if he had stopped the flow of time and edited himself into that particular frame of it."

 

Jedi speeds aren't that big of a deal.

Edited March 26, 2012 by billyboyjennings

[Buriedsphere]

I don't know if I agree with all this "Power Armor can withstand Lightsabers" stuff.

 

However I do have to say that even if a Jedi got up close and personal with a Space Marine we are talking about a normal (6 ft) Jedi versus a superhuman Astartes Warrior (9 ft). Even if the Jedi lop off an arm or a leg, they only get that one hit in, and the space marine would just reach out and crush the Jedi's head with their hand.

 

If a bunch of Jedi can be gunned down by a gaggle of storm troopers, then one space marine could ravage several Jedi.

[Aximand]

Here you go:

 

Jedi speeds aren't that big of a deal.

 

And then it took him three seconds to kill five of them. Priad is a total BAMF.

[Rayla_Felana]

I don't know if I agree with all this "Power Armor can withstand Lightsabers" stuff.

 

The reason people argue that is because, Lightsaber blades are self-contained Plasma, Space Marines take shots of plasma to the chest every other day, just look at their battles with the Tau and numerous other enemies like the Eldar, that they battle and defeat on a regular basis, all use much larger and concentrated versions of plasma.

[Aximand]

The reason people argue that is because, Lightsaber blades are self-contained Plasma, Space Marines take shots of plasma to the chest every other day, just look at their battles with the Tau and numerous other enemies like the Eldar, that they battle and defeat on a regular basis, all use much larger and concentrated versions of plasma.

 

The Lightsaber would make it through, eventually. But by the time it takes the 'saber to cut through the Power Armor, that Marine's gonna wreck someone's day with a fist or a Close Combat Weapon.

[Captain_Zone]

And then it took him three seconds to kill five of them. Priad is a total BAMF.

 

Have you seen You Only Live Twice? The old James Bond movie. During the assault on the volcano hideout, one of the ninja does something very similar....

[Aximand]

Have you seen You Only Live Twice? The old James Bond movie. During the assault on the volcano hideout, one of the ninja does something very similar....

 

Lets rephrase that "Priad took three seconds to kill five psychotic Space Elves (and everything that implies) hopped up on combat stimulants with nothing more than a sword and a shield".

[Rayla_Felana]

The Lightsaber would make it through, eventually. But by the time it takes the 'saber to cut through the Power Armor, that Marine's gonna wreck someone's day with a fist or a Close Combat Weapon.

 

Basically this, and I would also like to state, feel free to stab a Space Marine with a Lightsaber, then he'll grab you by the throat, crush your neck, and move on.

 

Honestly, lightsabers are NOT going to do anywhere near as much damage to a Space Marine as it would a human, etc...they take battle wounds like that on a regular basis and keep fighting.

[Captain_Zone]

Lets rephrase that "Priad took three seconds to kill five psychotic Space Elves (and everything that implies) hopped up on combat stimulants with nothing more than a sword and a shield".

 

It took Sho Kosugi (in a cameo) 2.5 seconds to kill 5 SPECTRE agents using the Iaido subset of kenjutsu.

[Aximand]

It took Sho Kosugi (in a cameo) 2.5 seconds to kill 5 SPECTRE agents using the Iaido subset of kenjutsu.

 

SPECTRE agents don't have **** on Dark Eldar raiders, sorry.

[Ivanblood]

Basically this, and I would also like to state, feel free to stab a Space Marine with a Lightsaber, then he'll grab you by the throat, crush your neck, and move on.

 

Honestly, lightsabers are NOT going to do anywhere near as much damage to a Space Marine as it would a human, etc...they take battle wounds like that on a regular basis and keep fighting.

 

But lightsabers can cut through anyting, even through a spaceship armor. Jedis use them to open a 15-inch doors. They just make a circle and in a few seconds it´s open like a tin of anchovies.

 

I mean if a jedi can cut through 15-inch armor with one blow he can certainly cut through a spacemarine suit.

Edited March 26, 2012 by Ivanblood

[Aximand]

But lightsabers can cut through anyting, even through a spaceship armor. Jedis use them to open a 15-inch doors. They just make a circle and in a few seconds it´s open like a tin of anchovies.

 

"Anything" in Star Wars does not equal "Anything" in Warhammer 40K. I know for a fact that Star Wars possesses neither Adamantium or Ceramite, both of which the majority of Space Marine armor is made from. We're not even getting into Terminator armor, Artificer Armor, Relic Armor or Master Crafted Armor.

[Captain_Zone]

SPECTRE agents don't have **** on Dark Eldar raiders, sorry.

 

He wasn't using a saw sword either. It was just a bad*** scene that your account reminded me of.

[Rayla_Felana]

But lightsabers can cut through anyting, even through a spaceship armor. Jedis use them to open a 15-inch doors. They just make a circle and in a few seconds it´s open like a tin of anchovies.

 

Carapace armor =/= Spaceship armor.

 

You cannot presume anything with these things, as stated before, they take stronger and larger shots of plasma to their armour in major battles with the Tau (an army that uses literally nothing but plasma based weapons) every other minute and the armor holds.

 

The only thing that can win this battle for the Jedi is the force, but then again, they need to contend themselves with the demonstratively more powerful Psychic powers of a Librarian and higher level Psykers, relying on a lightsaber's effectiveness is pointless.

[Aximand]

He wasn't using a saw sword either. It was just a bad*** scene that your account reminded me of.

 

Actually, Priad didn't use a Chainsword in what I was talking about. He didn't even have one assigned to him from the Chapter Armory, it was a plain (masterfully crafted) straight sword with a shield both sized for a Space Marine.

[Unusualsuspect]

Carapace armor =/= Spaceship armor.

 

You cannot presume anything with these things, as stated before, they take stronger and larger shots of plasma to their armour in major battles with the Tau (an army that uses literally nothing but plasma based weapons) every other minute and the armor holds.

 

The only thing that can win this battle for the Jedi is the force, but then again, they need to contend themselves with the demonstratively more powerful Psychic powers of a Librarian and higher level Psykers, relying on a lightsaber's effectiveness is pointless.

 

 

I think there's most certainly a qualitative difference between the sorts of plasma shots a Space Marine could reasonably shrug off from the Tau (those shots being from, presumably, the Pulse Rifle/Carbine and Burst Cannon, both of which convert a fairly small piece of matter, particles even, into plasma) and the blade of a lightsaber (a continuous beam of plasma).

 

The Plasma Rifles found on, say, a Tau Battlesuit... that would burn a hole right through a space marine's chestpiece, his flesh, and likely a good way through the back armor as well... both in every piece of fluff I've seen and in the mechanics of the 40k games themselves (across spectrums - tabletop and RPG both).

 

I'm not saying the armor wouldn't put up at least some resistance... but not enough to stop even a quick slice from severing, or nearly severing, a limb. It would likely require more than a flick of the wrist speedy cut to burn through ceramite, but anything with more heft than that behind it is going to do some serious damage, up to and including decapitation, amputation, and bisection.

 

 

 

 

Professor Walsh, your examples of Jedi capabilities seem to be relying heavily on Jedi Masters who are known to be nothing less than the FINEST examples of their class that their era has seen - Luke Skywalker being the prime offender, and more recently Mace Windu and other members of the exceptionally powerful Skywalker line. Surrendering to the Force, if it were available to MOST Jedi warriors on the lines, would be used far more commonly in battle (lacking drawbacks as it does). There are only a handful of instances where such an ability is referenced, and a vast majority of those happen to Jedi of recognizably stronger connections to the force.

 

 

 

 

In terms of the actual discussion, I'd have to say that an average force of Jedi are NOT going to have the sort of military training across the board that even an average force of Space Marines will, and only the most battle-hardened of Jedi Soldiers will be able to even match the greenest Space Marines when it comes to experience in war. Space Marines, in my mind, are Warriors first, Monks second. Jedi are Monks first, Warriors second.

 

Combine that with demonstrated difficulties for Jedi to successfully deal with heavily-armored elite troops (Mandelorians come to mind, as do the Clone Troopers) and the relative strength of Space Marines to even the most battle-hardened 'peers' in the Star Wars universe, I'm having a hard time seeing Jedi come up on top in this fight. Space Marines would take heavy casualties doing so, but they wouldn't be encountering anything amongst Jedi opponents that they haven't confronted, matched, and overcome within their own universe of Extremely Deadly Things.