PLEASE VOTE: Give Us Real Combat Logs

[Drewser]

I wonder how all of the people fighting desperately to keep the logs hidden will feel when the game goes free to play because all of the decent players have moved on.

 

Link?

[DjSnazzyduds]

I wonder how all of the people fighting desperately to keep the logs hidden will feel when the game goes free to play because all of the decent players have moved on.

 

If "decent" players leave over something so minuscule as combat logs so be it. I would not want to play with someone who would throw a tantrum and threaten to unsubscribe just because they aren't being pleased to specifics. Don't be so childish. To state something like that as to give people some sort of guilt trip. If people leave, they'll leave because of BioWare's lack of game content, patches, fixes etc.. and beyond.

 

But to say that people who don't share your interests aren't "descent" is just utterly silly. You can't possibly walk around thinking you're more entitled than others because they don't share your point of view. This game is still young and too early to tell whether it'll make it or break it. I know a fair amount of players who are hardcore and in your words "descent" that are happy with this game with or without combat logs.

Edited March 22, 2012 by DjSnazzyduds

[Stupiddrummer]

What if the story, (the choices you make, companions you love, and how it all ends),is the progression?

 

if that IS the progression, then that is very limited progression. Story is important, but the most replayable games didn't become that way solely because of the story.

[Matte_Black]

yeah, but nothing in SWTOR compares to the rarity or epicness of those two items.

 

Pretty sure that could be addressed pretty easily, through minor tweaks to droprates and content difficulty for the next batch of great items, if diemed necessary. Combat logs are not needed to make items epic. They need to motivate players to play the content, not deconstruct it.

[DjSnazzyduds]

i think the best way is to add a combat log as a seperate chat tab (like in WoW). That way if you couldn't be bothered with it, it wouldn't bother you.

 

I would also add combat metrics (like Recount) that is togglable, and off by default. So, if you couldn't be bothered to use them, you wouldn't even know they were there.

 

I can sit behind you on this idea. I agree in your concept of pleasing both groups of players without singling one out. I would push to have this implemented for sure.

 

 

yeah, but nothing in SWTOR compares to the rarity or epicness of those two items.

 

Now that you mention it, in the GTN, under the item quality tab I see, "Legendary". They haven't added any such items correct?

 

if that IS the progression, then that is very limited progression. Story is important, but the most replayable games didn't become that way solely because of the story.

 

Why won't you accept a new way of gaming? BioWare is trying to do something new, they're trying to innovate. Apple kindaaaaaaa does it frequently though it's mostly just hyping up the masses over one or two changes. I agree that they should be pumping more resources into the aspects which make MMO's successful nowadays such as endgame raiding/gear and hardcore content. However I still believe story progression is a strong suit for them to pursue since no other MMO (that I can recall) goes about this form.

[DaxRendar]

see. this is the difference. I would be using them all the time.

 

New Mod? is it better than the old one? Do i get more currently from +crit or +power? I dunno lets try my rotation a few times and check out my combat log.

 

So yes, it is very inconvenient. I don't think it's fair for someone, who doesn't really plan on using it that much, to tell me, someone who wants to use it all the time, the significance of a degree of inconvenience.

 

Please stop with this.

 

If you are incapable of downloading and configuring ACT to run in Overlay Mode then honestly you shouldn't be attempting to analyze data.

 

By the time 1.2 goes Live you will be able to do everything you mentioned in this post in Real Time and I'm pretty sure you know it.

 

I saw the few "honest" posts you made a few days ago - you want Real-Time Group Combat Logs so you and your small group of friends can exploit others on the server as "replaceable henchmen" because you aren't willing to (a) recruit a full Ops Group into your current Guild (b) leave your current Guild with your friends for a dedicated Endgame Guild.

[Ordakii]

In WoW combat logs weren't just used to do better dps,but were instead used to bully new players from ever trying anything new in the game.So I would vote no.

[Frostvein]

In WoW combat logs weren't just used to do better dps,but were instead used to bully new players from ever trying anything new in the game.So I would vote no.

 

The problem many people have with this viewpoint is that you are unfairly punishing the people who use them in the way they are intended.

 

So, because you (maybe not you, but for the example purposes) are afraid that combat logs/realtime meters are going to be used to bully some people, the people who want to use them correctly are bullied into not having them at all.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Again, this is all irrelevant anyway. Bio has basically shut the door on this.

[Matte_Black]

The problem many people have with this viewpoint is that you are unfairly punishing the people who use them in the way they are intended.

 

So, because you (maybe not you, but for the example purposes) are afraid that combat logs/realtime meters are going to be used to bully some people, the people who want to use them correctly are bullied into not having them at all.

 

Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

Again, this is all irrelevant anyway. Bio has basically shut the door on this.

 

In essence, BioWare is saying combat logs are intended to be out-of-game.

 

I have some sympathy for those who prefer or have become accustomed to a more metric-intsensive experience but, this is not that game.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Matte_Black

[genesiser]

There are two problems with the anti-public log/meter argument.

 

First off, humans like to compare themselves to other people. Even if there were no fights with enrage timers where dps didn't matter, people would still want to see how their dps stands up against another dps team member. Damage meters/public logs with parsers allow us humans to do that in a quick and easy fashion.

 

The second problem is that since some people abuse it and use meters to abuse other people, they think the tool should be removed or heavily restricted as opposed to using a tool in the game that's designed to deal with the people that are jerks in the first place. Let me give you an example that I saw another person use in a different therad to give you an idea what I mean.

 

Car horns are a good tool to have in your car. They can alert other drivers on the road if something is going to happen to them, you can use it to call attention to yourself if being chased by a would be bad guy, etc. Some people choose to abuse them by constantly using it, holding down the horn in a neighborhood when there is absolutely no need, and they can make life absolutely miserable for everyone in the neighborhood. Those miserable people however don't write letters to car manufacturers to remove the horn from a car, they instead use a tool they have which is to call the police and complain about noise pollution or disturbance of peace, and then the police come out, deal with it, and the person that called the police doesn't have to deal with that person again.

 

The same thing happens with damage meters. Once again, it is a very useful tool to have. If you have trouble with a boss because of lack of dps, you can look at the meter and see who it is so you can either help them, or for some people, remove them from the group. In general, they are a useful tool to improve your group as a whole. Some people however choose to abuse it by calling some low dps guy names or constantly spams the results after a fight, or is just a plain jerk. If you see this guy, a sensible person doesn't write a letter to the devs to remove the tool, you instead use a tool available to you that is designed for that sort of behavior and put that person on your ignore list so you don't have to deal with them again. That's the part people seem to forget. You have an ignore list, so put a dps meter jerk on there and you don't have to deal with them again.

[Stupiddrummer]

I can sit behind you on this idea. I agree in your concept of pleasing both groups of players without singling one out. I would push to have this implemented for sure.

 

 

 

 

Now that you mention it, in the GTN, under the item quality tab I see, "Legendary". They haven't added any such items correct?

 

 

 

Why won't you accept a new way of gaming? BioWare is trying to do something new, they're trying to innovate. Apple kindaaaaaaa does it frequently though it's mostly just hyping up the masses over one or two changes. I agree that they should be pumping more resources into the aspects which make MMO's successful nowadays such as endgame raiding/gear and hardcore content. However I still believe story progression is a strong suit for them to pursue since no other MMO (that I can recall) goes about this form.

 

I'll give you that, they may put legendaries in. I don't imagine WoW had those two items from release. The point is, once you get your mount, what is there to look forward to?

 

I think the "new way of gaming" is inherently flawed. Players eat up story content significantly faster than it can be created and released. MMOs need some sort of easy to implement carrot on a stick. Relying on story is simply not viable.

 

And you can only play the same story so many times. I thought C2N2 was funny the first couple times i heard him...

 

also, i don't think you can copy/paste WoW game model, add more story, and call it a "new way of gaming."

[JediElf]

It's not fear. people are not 'afraid' of combat logs. They are just tired, of the unfortunate social fallout, from realtime meters.

 

No one is 'afraid' of being judged, no one cowers in fear from 'expert' players...some of us just want a game that's not all about metrics, statistics, and cookie cutter builds. Those kind of things creep into all aspects of the game, it seeps into every nook and cranny, and changes the entire feel, of how the game is played.

 

SW:TOR is 'nice' right now. People help one another, people are friendly to one another, and most servers are really great places to be. Heck for the first time in a general chat channel I heard a lengthy discussion about old cartoons, and the games lore...it was fantastic.

 

Some folks just want this sweet moment to last for a while, we want it to remain 'nice' for a while.

[Stupiddrummer]

Please stop with this.

 

If you are incapable of downloading and configuring ACT to run in Overlay Mode then honestly you shouldn't be attempting to analyze data.

 

By the time 1.2 goes Live you will be able to do everything you mentioned in this post in Real Time and I'm pretty sure you know it.

 

I saw the few "honest" posts you made a few days ago - you want Real-Time Group Combat Logs so you and your small group of friends can exploit others on the server as "replaceable henchmen" because you aren't willing to (a) recruit a full Ops Group into your current Guild (b) leave your current Guild with your friends for a dedicated Endgame Guild.

 

I'll stop when my $15 a month is worth less than yours'.

 

Why should Bioware expect me to download and configure ACT to run in Overlay Mode? I pay them $15 so i can play their game, not run BS third party programs just so they can submit to players that dont want to get harassed (who are going to get harassed, regardless).

 

Honest posts? Considering i dont exploit people, IF i posted something like that it was probably sarcasm, and i apologize for confusing you.

 

Personally, the only reason i want damage meters, is because i love seeing more feedback from my combat besides "that thing died."

[genesiser]

It's not fear. people are not 'afraid' of combat logs. They are just tired, of the unfortunate social fallout, from realtime meters.

 

No one is 'afraid' of being judged, no one cowers in fear from 'expert' players...some of us just want a game that's not all about metrics, statistics, and cookie cutter builds. Those kind of things creep into all aspects of the game, it seeps into every nook and cranny, and changes the entire feel, of how the game is played.

 

SW:TOR is 'nice' right now. People help one another, people are friendly to one another, and most servers are really great places to be. Heck for the first time in a general chat channel I heard a lengthy discussion about old cartoons, and the games lore...it was fantastic.

 

Some folks just want this sweet moment to last for a while, we want it to remain 'nice' for a while.

 

It sounds to me that you apply a stigma to people that like damage meters or public log parsers which is that they are all jerks and only care about metrics and nothing else and when someone doesn't do as well as them, they go all crazy on that person. But here's a shocker for you, most of them - not all, but most of them also enjoy the same aspects of the mmorpg genre as you do.

[Matte_Black]

I'll stop when my $15 a month is worth less than yours'.

 

Why should Bioware expect me to download and configure ACT to run in Overlay Mode? I pay them $15 so i can play their game, not run BS third party programs just so they can submit to players that dont want to get harassed (who are going to get harassed, regardless).

 

Honest posts? Considering i dont exploit people, IF i posted something like that it was probably sarcasm, and i apologize for confusing you.

 

Personally, the only reason i want damage meters, is because i love seeing more feedback from my combat besides "that thing died."

 

Why do you argue so hard for a game that is not what you want it to be to become the type of game so many other games are better at being? Why demand it be worth your 15 dollars instead of paying your money to game targetting the things you want? They pretty clearly aren't catering to your playstyle, why waste the breath?

[DjSnazzyduds]

I'll give you that, they may put legendaries in. I don't imagine WoW had those two items from release. The point is, once you get your mount, what is there to look forward to?

 

I think the "new way of gaming" is inherently flawed. Players eat up story content significantly faster than it can be created and released. MMOs need some sort of easy to implement carrot on a stick. Relying on story is simply not viable.

 

And you can only play the same story so many times. I thought C2N2 was funny the first couple times i heard him...

 

also, i don't think you can copy/paste WoW game model, add more story, and call it a "new way of gaming."

 

I know for sure the flaw about this story content way of MMOs is how fast newer content can be dished out, but as I stated, it's an awesome content nonetheless which they should still keep working on, but put as much time into the conventional gaming aspects such as raiding and endgame gear. That way there is a balance without feeding one aspect too much.

 

It is still a new way of gaming to me, the fact that WoW has been around so long shows that people have limited themselves. No matter what any game does, people will refer back to WoW and use that copy/paste argument you mentioned which isn't fair. You've seen WoW and now have an impossible standard. How can you expect so much more from a game in it's early stages and compare it to a game that's been around for 8 years, a ridiculously large development team, and insane resources at their disposal.

 

Now whenever a game comes out its, "WoW did this, WoW did that, WoW, WoW, WoW". Why not just play WoW or quit gaming all together? Games aren't given chances anymore because the players are putting them up on the grand pedestal that is WoW.

 

Why be excited for anything if all we can do is judge and compare? "Why waste time on Android Tablets when Apple's iPad has it all. Your laptop sucks, what brand is it? iBuypower? Pfft nothing compared to Alienware."

 

Players are only causing their own demise. Sure Bioware has some fault to some declines in this game, however it is also the players who has such high expectations of games to be godly in comparison to a game that's been doing it for years upon years.

[Stupiddrummer]

Why do you argue so hard for a game that is not what you want it to be to become the type of game so many other games are better at being? Why demand it be worth your 15 dollars instead of paying your money to game targetting the things you want? They pretty clearly aren't catering to your playstyle, why waste the breath?

 

cuz i love me some star wars!!

 

i was really bummed out when i started playing and realized, they hadn't broken the mold at all, im still basically playing WoW.

 

so if I'm going to play WoW wearing Star Wars clothing, I'd rather they at least get it right, and maybe even improve on it!

 

You have to be critical, contentment leads to stagnation!

[Andryah]

You have to be critical, contentment leads to stagnation!

 

Mantra of the chronic complainer, IMO.

[JediElf]

It sounds to me that you apply a stigma to people that like damage meters or public log parsers which is that they are all jerks and only care about metrics and nothing else and when someone doesn't do as well as them, they go all crazy on that person. But here's a shocker for you, most of them - not all, but most of them also enjoy the same aspects of the mmorpg genre as you do.

 

*sigh* It may be true...but when I see so much of it happen, then what other conclusion can I make?

 

You'd have to be pretty naive, if you don't think that meters change a game, and it's players. it does, and it's sad to say that the bad vastly outweighs the good on that topic. Just look at how often people who don't care for meters are labeled 'bads', 'afraid to pull their weight', or all the other assumptions about non-pro players.

 

That kind of thing can put peoples backs up, and make them a little defensive. It's sometimes hard to imagine that you guys, actually like the same things that we like, in a game. All we see are people obsessed with numbers, other players numbers, and driven by this need to either 'improve' or scorn people that don't fall in line.

 

What we suppose to take away from that?

[defiantlegacy]

Ill bet that almost everyone who voted ( either way ) doesn't raid anyway in SWTOR.

The poll is a waste of time because the game will be a forgotten memory when GW2 comes out.

[Stupiddrummer]

I know for sure the flaw about this story content way of MMOs is how fast newer content can be dished out, but as I stated, it's an awesome content nonetheless which they should still keep working on, but put as much time into the conventional gaming aspects such as raiding and endgame gear. That way there is a balance without feeding one aspect too much.

 

It is still a new way of gaming to me, the fact that WoW has been around so long shows that people have limited themselves. No matter what any game does, people will refer back to WoW and use that copy/paste argument you mentioned which isn't fair. You've seen WoW and now have an impossible standard. How can you expect so much more from a game in it's early stages and compare it to a game that's been around for 8 years, a ridiculously large development team, and insane resources at their disposal.

 

Now whenever a game comes out its, "WoW did this, WoW did that, WoW, WoW, WoW". Why not just play WoW or quit gaming all together? Games aren't given chances anymore because the players are putting them up on the grand pedestal that is WoW.

 

Why be excited for anything if all we can do is judge and compare? "Why waste time on Android Tablets when Apple's iPad has it all. Your laptop sucks, what brand is it? iBuypower? Pfft nothing compared to Alienware."

 

Players are only causing their own demise. Sure Bioware has some fault to some declines in this game, however it is also the players who has such high expectations of games to be godly in comparison to a game that's been doing it for years upon years.

 

I use the copy/paste argument because...well..can you deny that? Can you honestly say that SWTOR is totally original, and didn't follow the existing model of the most successful game in their intended market?

 

I shouldn't expect SWTOR to be as modern as WoW, because WoW has had a lot of time to develop. And it would be impossible to plan a game 5 years ago around changes that were made in an expansion 1 year ago. That's no excuse for releasing a game unfinished. This game is missing basic MMO elements that Vanilla WoW even had. I believe the term is "industry standards." An industry should be progressing over time. It's like science, peer's in the industry build on eachother work. Obvious signs of regression are unacceptable.

 

the problem is devs were afraid to take risks. Its much easier to get funding for a game that is modeled off a giant success like WoW.

[DjSnazzyduds]

Ill bet that almost everyone who voted ( either way ) doesn't raid anyway in SWTOR.

The poll is a waste of time because the game will be a forgotten memory when GW2 comes out.

 

Uh.. Eww.

[JediElf]

The poll is a waste of time because the game will be a forgotten memory when GW2 comes out.

 

Hahahhahahhahahhahaha....No.

 

SWTOR > GW2 calling it now. ^_^

[genesiser]

Why do you argue so hard for a game that is not what you want it to be to become the type of game so many other games are better at being? Why demand it be worth your 15 dollars instead of paying your money to game targetting the things you want? They pretty clearly aren't catering to your playstyle, why waste the breath?

 

That reminds me of a question that someon asked which is, "Why do so many people talk about the bad stuff instead of the good stuff in this game." And that reminded me of a day in sociology class I took 12 years ago where a Romanian student asked the instructor, "Why do so many Americans complain about the bad stuff about America instead of all the good stuff?" (those weren't his exact words, just paraphrasing because it was so long ago)

 

Anyway, the instructor basically said, "While it is good to talk about the good stuff every now and then, if people don't talk about the bad stuff then nothing will change or be improved. Talking about the bad stuff and bringing it to light draws attention to the problem so people can work on ways to fix the problem or improve the situation."

 

Basically what I'm getting at is the guy you quoted sees the lack of damage meters a problem. You can't say nobody agrees with him because this thread has gotten over 3,000 responses of people going back and forth on the topic. For him and for many others, the addition of real time logs or damage meters would improve the quality of play. I know for myself, it would drastically improve my raiding experience because everything is on farm with my group and it's now mind-numbingly boring for myself and others in the group. The addition of real time meters would improve our play because we could have a competition for top dps and it would keep things fresh. On top of that, competition makes us better players because we push to improve our output while following mechanics when trying to become top dpser.

 

In the end, just because you and others see the lack of meters as a good thing, others see it as a bad thing. That is why we have forums so we can discuss such topics. However one problem with this topic that I've come to realize is how people see this topic is more akin to religion. What I mean by that, is pretty much no matter what you say, no matter how logical your argument may be, the chances are you won't change the mind of someone on the opposite side.

Edited March 22, 2012 by genesiser

[DjSnazzyduds]

I use the copy/paste argument because...well..can you deny that? Can you honestly say that SWTOR is totally original, and didn't follow the existing model of the most successful game in their intended market?

 

I shouldn't expect SWTOR to be as modern as WoW, because WoW has had a lot of time to develop. And it would be impossible to plan a game 5 years ago around changes that were made in an expansion 1 year ago. That's no excuse for releasing a game unfinished. This game is missing basic MMO elements that Vanilla WoW even had. I believe the term is "industry standards." An industry should be progressing over time. It's like science, peer's in the industry build on eachother work. Obvious signs of regression are unacceptable.

 

the problem is devs were afraid to take risks. Its much easier to get funding for a game that is modeled off a giant success like WoW.

 

But the fact is, is that no game is original, WoW set the baseline foundation for MMO's. However you can't punish BioWare for the product they achieved. I hardly doubt any developer gets enough funding to make dramatic improvements to their games because when you go up against a game like WoW, you're taking a huge risk. If I was an investor I honestly wouldn't drop every dime into a new MMO, but once it's released, you analyze the reaction of the community and how the game is holding up. Then on will people continue to fund the game in order to give it those improvements of modern day MMO's.

 

Sure SWTOR is missing some key elements, but you can't expect them all at once. It will take time. Investors/shareholders are just testing the waters till they see where this is heading. If the initial reaction is impressive, expect more resources and more players to fund the game to create new innovations.

Edited March 22, 2012 by DjSnazzyduds